Grimms big advantage is that its not vulnerable to TTar or faster Knock Off leads since it can always get at least one full time Screen unlike Tales. Pranskter Taunt is also decent.
They are probably on par with each other though
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame SV UU Metagame Discussion - The Indigo Disk
- Thread starter Lily
- Start date
They are probably on par with each other though
@ Leftovers Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Ghost / Fairy / Steel / Water
EVs: 248 HP / 80 SpD / 180 Spe (whatever u want)
Careful Nature (i like sp. def for stuff like zapdos, luster purge latios, water moves from gren and to take dazzling gleam from moth better)
- Earthquake
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Dragon Tail
- Protect
Protect garchomp is smth i see 0 uses of... what does it do?
well picture a scenario where you have a team and its garchomp vs specs latios ... usually you would have to switch out without even thinking as the risk is not worth it but now.. scout the hell out of latios and see what it wants to do. Does it decide to pivot out via flip turn? well you caught that and free hazards for you. Does it want to luster purge? Well you can prob stay in and dragon tail it out or switch out. What about draco ? Well you can easily punish it now
I feel protect > rocks/spikes can be a really good boon to rack up recovery, scout what ur opp wants to do, and rack up chip damage and waste PP of a move... draco and luster purge only have 8 and while they may not run out... if they spam 1 into protect and 1 into another pokemon this may be smth they will worry about later in the game
Grimm can also hit mandibuzz like A9 with spirit break super effective, but you have to drop taunt or parting shot,
These two are the only viable light clay user, the other mons that have access to reflect & light screen have much better role than screen setter.
just lost a game against kommo-o cause i messed up the match up, proud of my boy :) (has anyone seen him on ladder)
The thing I like about UU is that you are generally afforded far more significant freedom than OU: your creativity can be rewarded, as you're not objectively worse off by using some Pokemon outside the top tier of units (for instance: you can pretty viably build teams around something like DD Feraligatr rather than SD Quav and, while Quav is better, Gatr being on your team isn't so hindering that it's not worth using). That said, it does make it much more difficult to summarize the offensive threats in the tier (especially on balance, who can afford to bend itself to certain Pokemon's strengths and weaknesses a lot easier). I'll attempt to summarize some of the better Pokemon you'll see on balance and list their usage while providing a replay of their effective uses from recent tours or ladder battles.
January Usage: 8th / 14.672%
General Role: Speed Control, Pivot
Applicable Replay: aislinn v. NikeBeamz
Torn-T is great: it's fast, gets Regenerator, has an insane stat spread that can either be tailored to fit your team's needs (both by playing with HP investment vs SpAtk investment or selecting between Heavy Duty Boots or Assault Vest), has access to great STAB (Bleakwind Storm or the riskier Hurricane), and gets some of the best utility moves in the game (U-Turn, Knock Off, Taunt, Icy Wind). Torn-T fits on every playstyle due to its versatility, but it particularly makes balance's life easier because of its ability to blanket check faster threats while still having the sustainability and bulk to continually switch into stuff like Keldeo and Iron Moth.
It's worth watching how Aislinn makes use of Torn-T in this battle: Torn basically spends the first 10~ turns of the game removing items, stonewalling Iron Moth, and frustrating Garchomp. Torn-T really flexes its longevity in this battle: not many Pokemon are able to throw out both Knock Off and U-Turn versus TankChomp and live to tell the tale.
January Usage: 9th / 14.182%
General Role: Sweeper/Wallbreaker
Applicable Replay: Mimilucha v. Feliburn
Ogerpon-C is a Pokemon who fits on balance because of its combination of speed, access to Sturdy (giving you a last resort answer to some of this tier's most threatening sweepers like Double Dance Moltres-G, BB Greninja, and CM Latios), and wide movepool. The wide movepool is particularly effective on balance: by predetermining which Pokemon counter you, it's a lot easier to craft the rest of your team around wearing down specific checks/counters (ex: pairing Oger-C with TankChomp to wear down things like Metagross on SD+3 attacks sets). While Ogerpon-C's best set (imo) is SD + 3 attacks, it has a number of tools in its bag such as U-Turn, Spikes, Encore, Trailblaze, Knock Off, Play Rough, and Taunt - meaning that you can either build your team around SD Ogerpon-C or splash Ogerpon-C as more of a supportive threat.
In the posted replay, Mimilucha uses SD Ogerpon-C on a team that seems pretty intentionally designed around wearing down its checks/counters through passive damage and forcing switches via immunities. I'd take special note of how Mimi uses Zapdos: it pretty consistently comes into things like Iron Treads (rip the goon) and Kommo-o and inflicts either chip damage or preys on their inability to strike back by pivoting with Volt Switch.
I'd say that Ogerpon-C's value is maximized when you figure out how to pick its spots: by the time that Ogerpon-C finally hits the field on turn 35 off a Zapdos Volt Switch, there's not much left in its way. Ogerpon-C forces a switch, sets up a SD, and cleans up. It's really easy to use Oger-C and watch it fall flat on its face, and most of that is because I see a lot of players try to set up too early. As a final note, I think that Terrakion (brought to light by TwilightHD, one of my favorite players to play against on ladder) makes a great partner for Oger-C: they generally face the same counters due to their access to strong rock STABs, but Terrakion can either punish those same switch-ins with CB Close Combat or wear the ones without recovery down with a similarly strong CB Stone Edge).
January Usage: 16th / 9.994%
General Role: Wallbreaker
Applicable Replay: Mimilucha v. Feliburn
Keldeo is one of the tier's best Choice Specs users: it really only clicks its STABs (oftetimes running Hydro Pump + Secret Sword + Vacuum Wave + filler), meaning that it rarely is forced to take major risks as it did in past gens by locking itself into things like Icy Wind. Keldeo users likely had mixed feelings regarding February's tier shifts. Alo, who moved up, was a huge issue due to Wish + Regen + Flip Turn; yet, the Toxapex drop was a huge blow to Keldeo's spammability. Keldeo fits well on balance for its ability to both hit hard and generate lots of momentum if it opts for Flip Turn in the "filler" spot.
The listed replay shows the boundaries of Keldeo's strengths: almost every time it comes in, it forces Alo onto the field or severely damages one of Feliburn's Pokemon. Keldeo does sometimes struggle against super fat teams who have access to great recovery though, as shown in the replay. Keldeo really benefits from its ability to Flip Turn against bulkier threats who may wall it (which wasn't shown in this replay), but should be illuminative of the way you want to use it: get up some hazards, bring Keldeo in via the ample opportunities afforded to it by its great typing, and either pivot with Flip Turn on the incoming bulky water or nuke your opponent's best answer with a Specs boosted STAB.
January Usage: 15th / 10.424%
General Role: Pivot / Wallbreaker
Azumarill, in addition to being one of the tier's best answers to Greninja (if Azu opts for AV), is one of our only good Fairy type attackers. In a tier ripe with Dragon and Fighting type Pokemon (see: Garchomp, Latios, Keldeo, Quaquaval, Kommo-o), STAB Play Rough punishes teams and can help to wear down the steel types that hold a lot of teams together. Imo Assault Vest is Azumarill's best set: it adequately answers Greninja, comes in pretty freely versus Torn-T, and can switch between moves to make fairy-resists like Metagross and Jirachi less reliable switch-ins.
Couldn't find a great replay, but I think Azu on paper proves by itself why it comfortably fits on a lot of balance. It's worth noting that sets like CB and BD have merit - however, Azu is already a Pokemon who can sometimes struggle with sustainability due to lack of non-Wish support recovery. Given the fact that Azu is usually placed onto teams as a way to provide some insulation to this tier's biggest offensive threats (many of whom prioritize special attacks), AV generally seems better.
January Usage: 5th / 18.676%
General Role: Speed Control / Pivot / Sweeper
Applicable Replay: temp v. MemeDose46
Scizor, Mr. I'm So Fkn Perfect I Do Everything, fits onto a lot of balance because of its willingness to competently run a number of different sets. Thinks like CB are tried and true, threatening some of the tier's most annoying offensive threats by picking them off when they reach 45%~ health. I've also seen some usage of SD + leftovers, SD + Life Orb, and even Defog + Heavy Duty Boots.
This replay is admittedly a little bit of a cop out: after getting into the game on a slow Mandibuzz U-Turn on Turn 11, Scizor is able to SD in Tornadus-T's face and really only stopped by a Zapdos Static. Scizor can struggle versus things like Zapdos Statis/Moltres Flame Body, but if it was able to avoid the para in this game it threatens to bowl over temp's team pretty easily due to +2 BP nuking faster threats.
January Usage: 3rd / 24.306%
General Role: Wallbreaker / Sweeper
I pretty extensively covered the uses of Latios in this post - as such, I'll end the analysis here.
- Hydrapple with Nasty Plot helps into other balance and stall matchups you will run into.
- Okidogi helps whittle down teams with Toxic Chain and is rather flexible to be more favorable in certain matchups. Mostly Bulk Up sets are used here.
- Reuniclus isn't amazing per se but it does require less support with Magic Guard ignoring hazards.
- Suicune is in a similar boat to Reuniclus but it can be very obnoxious to deal with Vincune.
- Latios fits on everything and is super customizable.
- Pechu is new and I've seen many use NP sets on it. Can be easier to make work in slower-paced games.
I've mostly seen the following be used, though I am sure there are many other choices you can consider like variants of Enam-T etc.
Quick-fire opinions on the tier post shifts:
-
Webs are in a slightly better spot. Bee pressures the common hazard removers and got better with no treads, though a lot of teams are now Boots and/or Flying/Levitate heavy.
-
Underrated right now. Bulkier teams are seeing play due to new drops and it can basically 6-0 against them with Tera.
-
Another overlooked Pokemon. It has fantastic wall-breaking and sweeping potential. Tera + Bulletproof can also add so much defensive value for teams.
-
I've had a lot of success with Specs Zone as a breaker and trapper with Treads gone. Does well into our Steels to remove them for other stuff.
-
Screens as a playstyle aren't very good imo and seem to have fallen off on ladder too
-
Feels pretty good imo. CM 3 Attacks has been the most consistent with Double Dance and Specs being other sets I've used to decent success. Typing is valuable as seen with Metagross, shame it lacks any utility though
-
I think it's just okay. I've seen a few say it is broken and ban-worthy but I just have not had that experience at all yet. Curious about what others think.
-
I think Pex is mid as hell personally but again I've seen people have completely polar opposite opinions on it.
-
Removal a lot of the time is pretty limited to just Mandibuzz unless you really need it. I think Quaq is bad as a remover and as a mon right now anyway. Donphan is cool on certain offenses but will never replace Treads.
-
Gmolt is probably the only Pokemon I'd care to boot out of the tier now.
idk if i'm doing something wrong but everytime i fight band lokix, he destroys me, everytime I use band lokix he's straight buns what do i do with this guy lmao
Last edited:
You really don’t want to run banded kix, as it’s main move first impression can only be used on the first turn it’s out. Generally you run boots and just use it to punish setup mons.
This is the usual set
Lokix @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Bug
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
U turn and knock give it good utility to help beat down answers like
, while sucker gives it prio it can use outside of the first turn.Geopolitics Twilight these are both some fantastic suggestions, thanks a ton! azu + specs magnezone to get rid of something like (non eq) variants of metagross is an especially interesting idea, will be sure to fiddle around with each to see what works!
Armada
Banned deucer.
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Battle Bond
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Hydro Pump
- Extrasensory
- Sludge Wave
I have found this pokemon very usefull on psyspam Ho. The terrain not only boosting your psychic move to hit pex/keldeo/quaq but also protecting you from being forced out by prio from keld/lokix etc. I usually used it early to midgame when mons were a little bit chipped prior and it would usually clean up specially vs opposing ho or force a terra in response vs slower teams such as terra dark/fairy toxapex terra steel hydrapple and so on and even if you lose the mind game that turn or in general get stopped i think forcing your opponent to terra kinda early when using ho is very valuable. And the terras it forced were usually into types that got abused by the rest off the team. Even outside gren i think psyspam right now is a very potent playstyle that allows you to be flexible outside your 2-3 staple pokemon.
Is another one that has pretty fun synergy on psyspam getting boosted psychics to beat toxapex is fun and you deal with azumaril without having to use terra.
https://pokepast.es/42292488c0976da3
this is the team i have been using its pretty flawed but i think its fun and i have been having relative sucess with it on the ladder. I would say consider making
tera ground with tera blast to muscle past metagross/jirachi/other iron crowns as focus blast really only hits greninja most likely forgetting a few other pokemon but yeah and against every other pokemon your better off just clicking stabs+focus blast miss is really annoying.
Last edited:
been experimenting with an Iron Crown team, seems pretty fun with Indeedee, Kommo-o appreciates not getting hit by priority as well
small nitpick, but 80 SpD 180 Spe Careful gives you 248 special defense and 285 speed. switching to jolly lets you hit 286 speed with only 80 EVs, which means you can put 180 into SpD to get 251 special defense, or only invest 168 and have 12 EVs to toy around with for the exact same bulk and an extra point of speed
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Ghost / Fairy / Steel / Water
EVs: 248 HP / 80 SpD / 180 Spe (whatever u want)
Careful Nature
I've played against this set on ladder and it put in a ton of work. The only weakness is that if the opponent sets up on your protect turns then you have to take lots of damage before dragon tailing them out, so its a little risky. I'd recomend giving gar some anti-setup support like a taunt mon or trick scarf.
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Ghost / Fairy / Steel / Water
EVs: 248 HP / 80 SpD / 180 Spe (whatever u want)
Careful Nature (i like sp. def for stuff like zapdos, luster purge latios, water moves from gren and to take dazzling gleam from moth better)
- Earthquake
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Dragon Tail
- Protect
Protect garchomp is smth i see 0 uses of... what does it do?
well picture a scenario where you have a team and its garchomp vs specs latios ... usually you would have to switch out without even thinking as the risk is not worth it but now.. scout the hell out of latios and see what it wants to do. Does it decide to pivot out via flip turn? well you caught that and free hazards for you. Does it want to luster purge? Well you can prob stay in and dragon tail it out or switch out. What about draco ? Well you can easily punish it now
I feel protect > rocks/spikes can be a really good boon to rack up recovery, scout what ur opp wants to do, and rack up chip damage and waste PP of a move... draco and luster purge only have 8 and while they may not run out... if they spam 1 into protect and 1 into another pokemon this may be smth they will worry about later in the game
@ Heavy-Duty Boots Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 196 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Toxic
- Acid Spray
- Recover
Another thing i wanted to comment about... acid spray pex is an interesting option... it really forces switches as acid spray -> pivot to smth like torn-t, raikou, latios, zapdos, etc.
Smth like sinistcha is gonna be taking a lot of acid spray and isnt going to be able to win 1v1 while with haze you are at mercy to shadow ball drops constantly and just being outdamaged by matcha gotcha + being burnt, acid spray and pivot to a teammate allows you to just threaten it straight out as it cant outboost you.
This can also help pex itself bypass would be checks via just boosting way to much for the opp... Smth like okidogi usually can use it as setup fother with taunt, but with acid spray you can just eventually surf it to do a huge amount of dmg and easily revenge kill it thanks to the drops. Also smth like garg, amoonguss, setup pokemon that can usually take advanatge of passivity like CM reuni, CM sinistcha, ID garg, and maybe more... just an interesitng tech i wanted to share
ik the council is occupied with the garg suspect , but is it possible to consider iron crown's potential brokenness?
i'm not someone who's good at using HO but i've had a lot of ease using it , and facing it when using other teams has been pretty difficult
i'm not someone who's good at using HO but i've had a lot of ease using it , and facing it when using other teams has been pretty difficult
Not a council member but rn i dont really think crown is that bad, its pretty scary on psyterrain but otherwise its not the worst thing to work around when one of the most common mons in the tier is sp def
.It also struggles with twaves from the likes of
and 
and some sets take quite a bit of time to get going, so you can out offense it to keep it in check.Its certainly a scary mon that you need to consider when building, but again atm it doesnt really feel too bad. Could maybe be looked at in the future if it starts to prove to be an issue but imo if any HO mon is an issue rn its the evil
when i think about it i actually don't disagree withNot a council member but rn i dont really think crown is that bad, its pretty scary on psyterrain but otherwise its not the worst thing to work around when one of the most common mons in the tier is sp def
It also struggles with twaves from the likes of
Its certainly a scary mon that you need to consider when building, but again atm it doesnt really feel too bad. Could maybe be looked at in the future if it starts to prove to be an issue but imo if any HO mon is an issue rn its the evil
being broken, even more than but i feel it'll take time to be seen because i don't think it's as splashable as most broken mons, very much an espathra ou situation
Honestly I'm glad this was brought up, as I think Crown is getting overshadowed by the other stuff but it's awfully oppressive on the right team atm and the counterplay under screens is very difficult as you don't know if it's going to be WP or Booster or something else. I'm not saying we need to suspect it or ban it, but I do think it should be more on the radar to just see how it goes with upcoming tour games. No point in really arguing if it's totally broke or not right now until more games are seen with it, but I encourage everyone to keep an eye on it.
am i the only one on the ladder that's been cooking with kommo-o
seriously, where is he
Kommo-o @ Throat Spray
Ability: Soundproof
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clanging Scales
- Flamethrower
- Flash Cannon
- Clangorous Soul
This set, is SO much better than boomburst imo, tera steel kommo-o has always popped off and i've actually started reverse 6-0ing teams with this set
Pros!!:
no more crappy tera normal hooray!!
tera steel turns all of kommo's weaknesses into resistances!
clanging scales is only 30 bp less than boomburst, so it's still spammable
modest allows you to connect more reliable kills, (quark spe moth is there but you're not outspeeding even with timid)
haven't found any cons yet, except that clangorous soul lowers HP, which can be bad ig? tera steel kinda forgives this tho
seriously, where is he
Kommo-o @ Throat Spray
Ability: Soundproof
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clanging Scales
- Flamethrower
- Flash Cannon
- Clangorous Soul
This set, is SO much better than boomburst imo, tera steel kommo-o has always popped off and i've actually started reverse 6-0ing teams with this set
Pros!!:
no more crappy tera normal hooray!!
tera steel turns all of kommo's weaknesses into resistances!
clanging scales is only 30 bp less than boomburst, so it's still spammable
modest allows you to connect more reliable kills, (quark spe moth is there but you're not outspeeding even with timid)
haven't found any cons yet, except that clangorous soul lowers HP, which can be bad ig? tera steel kinda forgives this tho
While I do agree tera steel is a neat option on mixed Kommo, as it gives some neat resists, I will say that there is a downside in the significant drop in power between tera steel flash cannon and tera normal boomburst. In fact, a raw boomburst is stronger than tera steel flash cannon (flash cannon’s 80 BP x 1.5 from stab = 120 < raw boomburst’s 140). Of course flash cannon can be neat as a sort of midground option into smth like
who can tera fairy, but I just wanted to point out the downsides of using it over boomburst.this is very true, i was just tired of getting revenge killed by infernape, breloom, scizor etc (infernape and breloom can still mach but thats why i run psy terrain)While I do agree tera steel is a neat option on mixed Kommo, as it gives some neat resists, I will say that there is a downside in the significant drop in power between tera steel flash cannon and tera normal boomburst. In fact, a raw boomburst is stronger than tera steel flash cannon (flash cannon’s 80 BP x 1.5 from stab = 120 < raw boomburst’s 140). Of course flash cannon can be neat as a sort of midground option into smth like
Hydreigon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Flash Cannon
I really like specs hydreigon, the ability to take on psy terrain better, being able to pair well future port as well thanks to dark pulse or draco's being much harder to pivot around than latios' dual stabs + future port, and generally is pretty darn good. Unlike latios hydreigon has the moves to hit both ttar, tink, scizor, etc without sacrificing much else... Latios usually struggles in these MU's cuz mystical fire is smth it lost in the gen 8 -> 9 shift.
This means that hydreigon vs bulkier cores does much better than latios will.. Well ofc everyone is asking "latios is faster duh just use specs latios" but when you prep latios often is gonna be prepped for much more heavily and even then u can stack both of them to just rain hell on the opponent like CM latios cleans after specs drei and the shit it left behind cuz usually tink is trading with it which means u can go late game with CM latios.
Teams may prefer the ghost resistance, can answer specs gren, moltres-g, and doesnt instantly die to lokix sucker punch, as well as its stab not being smth foes are completely immune and have to take chip every time.
https://pokepast.es/d047b1b6bb3d7af0 this is why hydreigon fits on this team compared to latios. (also more physically bulky its not insignificant
252 Atk Arcanine-Hisui Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 271-319 (90 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Arcanine-Hisui Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 246-289 (75.6 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
which means smth like priority will do like ~18% less to hydreigon than to latios which makes it harder to revenge kill.. ofc with hydreigon this means you need speed control but this isnt unreasonably hard to fit)
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Flash Cannon
I really like specs hydreigon, the ability to take on psy terrain better, being able to pair well future port as well thanks to dark pulse or draco's being much harder to pivot around than latios' dual stabs + future port, and generally is pretty darn good. Unlike latios hydreigon has the moves to hit both ttar, tink, scizor, etc without sacrificing much else... Latios usually struggles in these MU's cuz mystical fire is smth it lost in the gen 8 -> 9 shift.
This means that hydreigon vs bulkier cores does much better than latios will.. Well ofc everyone is asking "latios is faster duh just use specs latios" but when you prep latios often is gonna be prepped for much more heavily and even then u can stack both of them to just rain hell on the opponent like CM latios cleans after specs drei and the shit it left behind cuz usually tink is trading with it which means u can go late game with CM latios.
Teams may prefer the ghost resistance, can answer specs gren, moltres-g, and doesnt instantly die to lokix sucker punch, as well as its stab not being smth foes are completely immune and have to take chip every time.
https://pokepast.es/d047b1b6bb3d7af0 this is why hydreigon fits on this team compared to latios. (also more physically bulky its not insignificant
252 Atk Arcanine-Hisui Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 271-319 (90 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Arcanine-Hisui Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 246-289 (75.6 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
which means smth like priority will do like ~18% less to hydreigon than to latios which makes it harder to revenge kill.. ofc with hydreigon this means you need speed control but this isnt unreasonably hard to fit)
Or it stays permanently