Metagame SV UU Metagame Discussion - The Indigo Disk

[RUrena888]

Any updates on how Blastoise is doing?

 

[buayagator]

Swampert @ Assault Vest
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Brave Nature
- Flip Turn
- Ice Beam
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
Assault Vest is so fucking tanky, and with Tera Poison ain't nothing killing him. He has got Flip Turn for pivoting, Earthquake for damage, Knock Off for item removal, and Ice Beam for Freeze haxs

I'd prefer full SpD invested pert on Assault Vest to reliably check speed variant of Iron Moth, assuming it gets +1 from 50% Fiery Dance bonus

+1 132 SpA Iron Moth Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Swampert: 420-496 (103.9 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 132 SpA Iron Moth Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Swampert: 296-352 (73.2 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

the full EV on Atk rather than SpD is not suitable for slow defensive pivot, better using your Tera for anything else

 

[StompyStomps]

I'd prefer full SpD invested pert on Assault Vest to reliably check speed variant of Iron Moth, assuming it gets +1 from 50% Fiery Dance bonus

+1 132 SpA Iron Moth Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Swampert: 420-496 (103.9 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 132 SpA Iron Moth Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Swampert: 296-352 (73.2 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

the full EV on Atk rather than SpD is not suitable for slow defensive pivot, better using your Tera for anything else

thank you for the reccomendation, I have made it now

 

[Nikebeamz]

my teams from r1 of the circuit finals ggs lily

https://pokepast.es/48a00c7c7249eb56 (change the terra on edge)
https://pokepast.es/b8a7e1533599cea6
https://pokepast.es/af8373fb800b103b

Didn't like my performance and my inability to keep my timer above 20 seconds but overall pretty good for my first full year on smogon.
s/o to starbitstorm for helping me with building/laddering throughout the entire season I don't think I would have qualled for uult, let alone circuit finals without your help. Also, big ups to TyCarter for all the testing during the season and for being a true disciple of GetReady2LearnChinese.

 

[buayagator]

Any updates on how Blastoise is doing?

not even show at the recent viability list

 

[passion]

hello everyone, just wanted to voice some of my personal opinions on the meta in its current state and its potential development before heading off to bed real quickly. with the drop of the recent dlc it is unsurprising that uu would receive many new powerful mons to mess around with. in the talks ive had with friends and seen publicly ive heard a few echo the idea that among these new mons nothing necessarily stands out above the rest as obviously broken (except maybe latios). one thing is super clear to me however, the power level of this current meta is much too high for the tier to handle. team matchup is a very prevalent factor in the decision of games and hyper offense is almost certainly the best approach to teambuilding (with multiple archetypes of ho thriving). with what i stated previously in mind, the next tiering option is not an obvious one to make but i would prefer we take action sooner rather than later. i believe latios to be the most obvious first target of this action as it already has multiple sets that are in my eyes meta breaking (specs, tera steel cm recover stabs). i also believe that latios would easily adapt to any potential counterplay to those sets as well. the removal of latios from the tier in itself would likely open up teambuilding in a way that makes it a bit clearer which other pokemon are too much for the tier to handle. some personal choices of mine would likely include ceruledge, garganacl, and goltres. past simply thinking they are too strong for the tier, i think the removal of ceruledge and goltres is a healthy way to nerf those hyper offenses (namely the aurora veils) that have been clogging ladder and tour play thus far. as for garganacl, i find this mon to be good in a way that invalidates a number of mons that may see use otherwise. furthermore, i believe it forces mons to use items (cloak)/moveslots (random sub sets) that they wouldnt be forced to use otherwise thus further restricting building. above all though, i just think its too good at making progress/cleaning late by sitting for 40 turns with iron defense body press sets. i doubt that even immediately banning these 4 with the snap of my fingers would make this tier as great as I think it can eventually be but, it would certainly be a quick way to jumpstart progress towards that goal. it is very likely that as the meta develops and pokemon come and go we will continue to see dominant meta threats that warp the tier but as it stands there are so many pokemon warping this tier that it feels impossible to play and build on a consistently solid level.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I hear Quaquaval fell off? Why is that? Mon was a borderline unhealthy matchup fish pre dlc2 and now it's low viability. What happened?

If so RUBL Quaquaval might be the reality we live in...

Anyway, is stellar type tera any good on bond gren? (Yes I know Greninja is probably broken.) It's one of the few mons that actually can run it well as it allows it to safely get okhos and makes the lack of power on its coverage less noticeable and can allow it to get okhos turn one that it otherwise wouldn't be able to

 

[Askov]

I hear Quaquaval fell off? Why is that? Mon was a borderline unhealthy matchup fish pre dlc2 and now it's low viability. What happened?

If so RUBL Quaquaval might be the reality we live in...

Anyway, is stellar type tera any good on bond gren? (Yes I know Greninja is probably broken.) It's one of the few mons that actually can run it well as it allows it to safely get okhos and makes the lack of power on its coverage less noticeable and can allow it to get okhos turn one that it otherwise wouldn't be able to

mostly because we got a lot of new other offensive threats so it got overshadowed by ''new toy syndrome'' a bit but particularly i think it's still a good poke in the meta and i brought it up on VR discussion to take a look at its rank again on next voting (i believe it deserves at least to be ranked in Mid Tier)

regarding stellar tera on gren, i think it's arguably the best option on Life Orb sets just because you can properly make use of its powered up coverage and freedom to not be locked into one move, while on specs sets you would prefer tera water in most scenarios

 

[Just A Shroom God]

Hey guys, ceruledge and greninja sure are busted, huh? They just hit so hard and are so fast when boosted, which is a shame, since their defenses are both low. Wouldn't it be nice if we had some sort of pokemon that happened to have 2 super-effective priority moves against them? And wouldn't it be nice if those priority moves were, coincidently, able to KO through a Tera resist? And, just hypothetically, if that priority ALSO happened to outpace their own priority in shadow sneak and water shuriken? Wouldn't that be nice. Sure is a shame we don't have a pokemon like that.

edit:

Hide

this was a joke, ceruledge is busted, I know lokix is inconsistent, you can stop laugh reacting me now

 

[NinjaDJCee]

Hey guys, ceruledge and greninja sure are busted, huh? They just hit so hard and are so fast when boosted, which is a shame, since their defenses are both low. Wouldn't it be nice if we had some sort of pokemon that happened to have 2 super-effective priority moves against them? And wouldn't it be nice if those priority moves were, coincidently, able to KO through a Tera resist? And, just hypothetically, if that priority ALSO happened to outpace their own priority in shadow sneak and water shuriken? Wouldn't that be nice. Sure is a shame we don't have a pokemon like that.

only one Pokémon beating them is not healthy idk what u mean and they just won’t set up while Lokix is alive
plus it doesn’t fit onto every team and is quite demanding needing hazard removal so it doesn’t take 25% when it comes in or it runs hdb and then it’s lacking power
edit: on second thought it’s typing is pretty bad defensively, meaning if you want to get it to kill something, one of ur team members has to die for the initiative because kix isn’t switching into anything, and if you are using lokix to beat ceru and gren you probably don’t have a Pokémon that can tank a hit from them AND volt switch/u-turn out to lokix. you lose a Pokémon every time they get in position, and they can just switch out and get in position with something else because your banded lokix can’t use first impression again and has to switch
not to mention that banded sucker punch can easily be pp stalled and instead of becoming the dream counter it becomes a coin flip to see if you predict right and knock off the ceruledge as it swords dances/sucker when it attacks or you lose another Pokémon as you sucker when it swords dances or you attack when it attacks

 

[StompyStomps]

Hey guys, ceruledge and greninja sure are busted, huh? They just hit so hard and are so fast when boosted, which is a shame, since their defenses are both low. Wouldn't it be nice if we had some sort of pokemon that happened to have 2 super-effective priority moves against them? And wouldn't it be nice if those priority moves were, coincidently, able to KO through a Tera resist? And, just hypothetically, if that priority ALSO happened to outpace their own priority in shadow sneak and water shuriken? Wouldn't that be nice. Sure is a shame we don't have a pokemon like that.

yeah, we need multiple Pokemon like that, and so far, we aint even got one.

 

[Moutemoute]

For sake of transparency.

How do you feel about Ceruledge ? 2
I know many players are complaining about Ceruledge but I don't see it as an issue right now, I think you can play around pretty easily and while Bulk Up variants can catch you out of guard, SD ones are the most common by an insane margin. As a player enjoying balance, I think those teams have a lot of tools to pressure Ceruledge such as TankChomp, Alomomola, Garganacl, Hydrapple or Greninja. While Focus Sash makes Ceruledge annoying, I think it's quite easy to maintain Entry Hazards right now and thus quite easy to mess around Ceruledge's Sash. I also think HO may struggle vs it because of the nature of the Pokémon but they do have answers as well. Why not only 1 then ? Mainly because Ceruledge can still put up a shitshow thanks to its tool (SD / Poltergeist / Weak Armor).

How do you feel about Garganacl ? 2
I already voiced my thoughts here.
tl;dr : Garg is cool to check HOs, good role compression, great user of Tera, great slow setup sweeper and good Pokémon to make progress thanks to Salt Cure. Not 1 because it is annoying and can win some games from preview.

How do you feel about Galarian Moltres ? 1
Can snowball, but it's pretty much the same since it's in UU, nothing has really changed to justify some actions against it. It can be a dumb Pokémon because it can win some games under Screens but I don't think this is an issue rn.

How do you feel about Latios ? 5
Latios is imo the top priority we should focus on as a council but also has players of UU. More time passes, more sets are exploited and some of them are really nasty especially when you need to take into account the others. Choice Specs is a pure nuke and we don't have a lot of Pokémon which can switch on it. You really need multiple Pokémon in Balance to take a hit if you don't want it to pick everytime it comes on the field, this wouldn't be that bad if Latios was slower but it's not. 350 speed is insane for that much breaking power imo. On the other hand, I think what pushes Latios over the edge is its CM variants, notably its CM Recover Dual STAB + Tera Steel set which is insanely tough to manage for a shit ton of teams (and so many teams don't take this set into the account when building). Choice Scarf variants are also quite good as well as Soul Dew ones. Even more rare sets have emerged such as CM Tera Fire Tera Blast Latios which is able to blast threw Steel-types such as Metagross, SpD Jirachi or Tinkaton. I firmly believe Latios is restraining the tier too much and should be the first Pokémon to ban/suspect.

How do you feel about Iron Moth ? 4
While it does have a serious 4MSS, I really think Iron Moth is a nuisance for the tier. Speed Boost Booster Energy variants are the best for sure but what pushes Iron Moth over the edge imo is its access to Fiery Dance. This move allows some shenanigans and allows Iron Moth to muscle threw its supposed checks if it's able to get 1/2 boosts. Of course it's RNG, but we're talking about a 50% to proc a special attack boost, this doesn't sound fair imo. Iron Moth also has access to crazy good coverage which allows it to touch so many Pokémon effectively, I really think it can become really tough to handle and doesn't bring enough good assets to justify to keep it in the tier.

How do you feel about Greninja ? 2
Can be problematic if you're allowing it to get its Battle Bond boosts, otherwise, it's pretty meh. Almost (or even all) council members are thinking Greninja isn't an issuefor the tier right now. I know we got a shit ton of complains about it but I really struggle to understand those complains. I really would like to see some games/replays where Greninja shines that much that it should be banned from the tier so if you have some please enlighten me. I feel like those complains are quite similar to those we got for Rain a few months ago. I feel like they're not that justify and people are just hating on the Pokémon (similarly to Garganacl because "boohoo stall Pokémon ahah").

 

[ThatOneApple]

Survey Yay

How much do you enjoy SV UU right now, on a scale of 1 to 10? - 8
I find the meta to be a lot better than DLC1, overall its a lot less stale because each turn matters more now than it did in the last meta. Also the new mons introduced a lot of new, fun interactions and team dynamics that ive been enjoying for the most part.

How competitive do you find SV UU to be right now, on a scale of 1 to 10? - 7
Teams mostly feel unique and as previously stated, turns feel like they matter more now, which helps improve the overall competitiveness. However, I do have one small issue (which will probably be addressed with a ban or two but i just felt like i needed to get it out there). Teams always kinda feel... unreliable, like theres always smth thats just gonna crush it. I know bad matchups exist but this feels sort of matchupy stuff feels off. This could also just be me struggling to adapt my teambuilding to the new meta though so you could probably take this part with a grain of salt.

Problematic Ratings

- 5
Ive gone into this a lot but i just hate this dude's existence, i feel like it forces such unhealthy interactions and dynamics in both the builder and the battle and is probably the main issue i have w the tier rn. The reason i feel this way is because of the difference in its checks depending on its moves/set. For example, if your check is and it has cc, youre getting clocked, if your workaround is clocking it with and then picking it off and it has sneak, that plan goes out the window. Hell, ive even seen it beat due to it being bulk up taunt by just setting up and spamming bitter blade for healing.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-739397
This replay gives an example of ledge being really just... dumb. Franco has AND , but quag got 1v1'd and mola was just fodder the moment it tera'd, while lycan likely wouldnt have been able to get in safely fast enough before it got all those boosts in order to revenge kill it unless franco just happened to know it was taunt bulk up. In fact, depending on the spread, ledge probably couldve claimed another mon had it not gotten full para'd on turn 34 given that it wouldve been at more hp to be able to live a hit from either zap or lycan.

(these calcs use the standard OU spread as a reference, with slight tweaks to be able to outrun 0 speed quag even while paralyzed)
252 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Tera Fairy Ceruledge: 129-153 (36.4 - 43.2%)
252 Atk Life Orb Lycanroc-Dusk Stone Edge vs. +3 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Ceruledge: 97-114 (27.4 - 32.2%)

And heres the thing, that ledge set gets beat down by ttar pretty easily right? There lies my issue, youre not always going to HAVE ttar, and even if you do, if its a cc set, that doesnt work as a check. Mola+prio beats down sd weak armor pretty well right? But youre not always going to HAVE mola.

Maybe im being a bit overdramatic, but the major issue with this mon is just that its different sets/move options constrain the builder and force very awkward interactions in the battle that i really think this tier could do without.

(ok so my other ones arent gonna be too long bc i put a lot of effort into the ledge one and im a bit pooped from it)

- 2
This mon is overall chill, covert cloak hasnt felt like a necessity to beat it down bc it sometimes struggles to even click salt cure with strong breakers like running around, alongside the ever annoyng that knocks you as you come in and then u turns out. also kinda just shits on it, which is fun even if hydrapple isnt the most splashable mon ever. and are irritating for it, vomits up hazards that it hates, etc etc. Different tera's are a tiny bit weird to account for but dont differentiate checks that much and are usually not to much of an issue if you can force it out to take hazards and remove any boost it make have gotten by using tera.

- 1
I havent seen enough of this mon to give a full opinion on it but... uh... its there i guess? Nothing really changed much its just a tiny bit annoying bc theres a bunch of other guys to account for so it can catch you lacking sometimes maybe idk.

- 4
Man i WANTED this thing to be chill, the defensive stuff it gives vs stuff like keld offensive pressure for stuff like and scarf sets for made it feel so nice. But alas, its kind of an issue. Moute mostly said what i was gonna say but ill just boil it down to it breaks too easily w specs and can pull nonsense with tera and calm mind, if you want more stuff on it, moute says it here

Latios is imo the top priority we should focus on as a council but also has players of UU. More time passes, more sets are exploited and some of them are really nasty especially when you need to take into account the others. Choice Specs is a pure nuke and we don't have a lot of Pokémon which can switch on it. You really need multiple Pokémon in Balance to take a hit if you don't want it to pick everytime it comes on the field, this wouldn't be that bad if Latios was slower but it's not. 350 speed is insane for that much breaking power imo. On the other hand, I think what pushes Latios over the edge is its CM variants, notably its CM Recover Dual STAB + Tera Steel set which is insanely tough to manage for a shit ton of teams (and so many teams don't take this set into the account when building). Choice Scarf variants are also quite good as well as Soul Dew ones. Even more rare sets have emerged such as CM Tera Fire Tera Blast Latios which is able to blast threw Steel-types such as Metagross, SpD Jirachi or Tinkaton. I firmly believe Latios is restraining the tier too much and should be the first Pokémon to ban/suspect.

- 2
I dont see this thing pull off enough nonsense to really find it too problematic but i can see why others dislike it due to coverage stuff. I personally think theres more pressing matters but i could see it maybe being an issue in the future.

- 3
Im middle of the road on this guy rn, bc i feel like the battle bond stuff is really annoying to face but sometimes its a bit wonk to get off? Not the top of my priorities rn but i can see it maybe being fine if it becomes easier to account for after other bans. Just throwing a 3 in there to keep the middle of the road thing there.

 

[NinjaDJCee]

For sake of transparency.

How do you feel about Ceruledge ? 2
I know many players are complaining about Ceruledge but I don't see it as an issue right now, I think you can play around pretty easily and while Bulk Up variants can catch you out of guard, SD ones are the most common by an insane margin. As a player enjoying balance, I think those teams have a lot of tools to pressure Ceruledge such as TankChomp, Alomomola, Garganacl, Hydrapple or Greninja. While Focus Sash makes Ceruledge annoying, I think it's quite easy to maintain Entry Hazards right now and thus quite easy to mess around Ceruledge's Sash. I also think HO may struggle vs it because of the nature of the Pokémon but they do have answers as well. Why not only 1 then ? Mainly because Ceruledge can still put up a shitshow thanks to its tool (SD / Poltergeist / Weak Armor).

How do you feel about Garganacl ? 2
I already voiced my thoughts here.
tl;dr : Garg is cool to check HOs, good role compression, great user of Tera, great slow setup sweeper and good Pokémon to make progress thanks to Salt Cure. Not 1 because it is annoying and can win some games from preview.

How do you feel about Galarian Moltres ? 1
Can snowball, but it's pretty much the same since it's in UU, nothing has really changed to justify some actions against it. It can be a dumb Pokémon because it can win some games under Screens but I don't think this is an issue rn.

How do you feel about Latios ? 5
Latios is imo the top priority we should focus on as a council but also has players of UU. More time passes, more sets are exploited and some of them are really nasty especially when you need to take into account the others. Choice Specs is a pure nuke and we don't have a lot of Pokémon which can switch on it. You really need multiple Pokémon in Balance to take a hit if you don't want it to pick everytime it comes on the field, this wouldn't be that bad if Latios was slower but it's not. 350 speed is insane for that much breaking power imo. On the other hand, I think what pushes Latios over the edge is its CM variants, notably its CM Recover Dual STAB + Tera Steel set which is insanely tough to manage for a shit ton of teams (and so many teams don't take this set into the account when building). Choice Scarf variants are also quite good as well as Soul Dew ones. Even more rare sets have emerged such as CM Tera Fire Tera Blast Latios which is able to blast threw Steel-types such as Metagross, SpD Jirachi or Tinkaton. I firmly believe Latios is restraining the tier too much and should be the first Pokémon to ban/suspect.

How do you feel about Iron Moth ? 4
While it does have a serious 4MSS, I really think Iron Moth is a nuisance for the tier. Speed Boost Booster Energy variants are the best for sure but what pushes Iron Moth over the edge imo is its access to Fiery Dance. This move allows some shenanigans and allows Iron Moth to muscle threw its supposed checks if it's able to get 1/2 boosts. Of course it's RNG, but we're talking about a 50% to proc a special attack boost, this doesn't sound fair imo. Iron Moth also has access to crazy good coverage which allows it to touch so many Pokémon effectively, I really think it can become really tough to handle and doesn't bring enough good assets to justify to keep it in the tier.

How do you feel about Greninja ? 2
Can be problematic if you're allowing it to get its Battle Bond boosts, otherwise, it's pretty meh. Almost (or even all) council members are thinking Greninja isn't an issuefor the tier right now. I know we got a shit ton of complains about it but I really struggle to understand those complains. I really would like to see some games/replays where Greninja shines that much that it should be banned from the tier so if you have some please enlighten me. I feel like those complains are quite similar to those we got for Rain a few months ago. I feel like they're not that justify and people are just hating on the Pokémon (similarly to Garganacl because "boohoo stall Pokémon ahah").

literally completely agree with all of this, just i think ceru can be a 3 for teams that struggle with entry hazards or dont have a pokemon that can tank a +2 polt. ceru tears apart ho from my experience if it can get a weak armour boost and most walls are lucky to get a hit off on it, let alone weaken it sufficiently for your priority to kill it. tera water garg does well but not every team can fit garg, and there is otherwise quite limited counterplay IMO, since it resists all consistent priority and can setup on so many things, including moth somehow (shoutout to the power herb meteor beam moth i saw in a tournament once). out of the list of mons that can pressure ceru you gave, not many really want to take a hit and alomomola cant burn, garg dies to cc, the most common filler move from my exp, gren will get exterminated after weak armour but otherwise can do alright revenging it if it isnt +2 +2.

 

[Lyssa]

guidelines

1 - completely fine at this point in time
2 - mostly fine but has something going for it that is either a bit unpleasant for the tier or can get out of hand, thing to be kept in check and maybe looked at a later point kinda stuff.
3 - is either on the verge of being broken or contributes negatively to the tier and would love it to at least be put up for suspect at a later point
4 - broken, extremely oppressive presence that is close to impossible to deal with
5 - if i had to assign a 5 to one of these we either messed up at a point in tiering or i'm not quite sure why it's been put up to surveying rather than just voting onto, completely broken and nonsensical kind of stuff

How do you feel about Ceruledge? - 3
Nothing has really changed for ceruledge in these last couple of weeks or even couple of months really, it's still the same silly mon it used to be in DLC1. It's not unbeatable, it has to pick between moves and that's awkward, stuff like garga being commonly used in the tier helps a lot, but ultimately defensive answers to it are extremely limited unless you want to go into itemless territory which to me is sign of a really unhealthy presence, add up that we have no removal and that's just unreasonable. When looking at things from the offensive side, it gets worse somehow. The dynamics it brings to the game are stupid with stuff like sash shutting down treads' attempts at spinning and using them for it's own benefits at the same time, I personally still find it very easy for HO or even offense to deny hazards but even then bitter blading back to it is simple and really hard for the opponent to position against, often forcing stupid situations to occur. Greninja is kind of our only saving grace, but I think ceruledge is still too unhealthy of a presence to keep in the tier and limits our options way too much because it's so hard to deal with if it gets out of hand and the tools it has at it's disposal to get into that situation are just.. overbearing, between weak armor, bitter blade, stabbed prio, tera and heck I've seen hs robbing so many games with endure wp too. With all of this being said, I don't think it's our strongest priority. The reason simply being that since defensive counterplay exists to an extent, I think removing things that limit our options as much as ceruledge but don't have anything more attempting at keeping them in check than what we're already aware of should take our priority. Do I think there is a world where ceruledge gets healthier with more bans? Probably not, but it would be illogical to do them in reverse order.

How do you feel about Garganacl? - 3
Garganacl is same territory as ceruledge really. The tools at it's disposal are way too good and require specific things to consistently deal with it. Everything I've said about this mon before still applies and rather than saying the same things over and over I would like to "answer" to things i frequently read about this mon because I don't understand them, with the main one being HO being garga's best mu? To me it's been the complete opposite, HO is the only playstyle I found to have the pressure required to stop garga and put it in a situation where the mon has got to trade itself in exchange to avoid a threat getting out of hand. Against slower style it's just a salt cure fiesta, the strong breakers being consistent against it kind of stop at latios due to luster purge being a good middle ground to click against anything it could possibly do and easily forcing it out, hydrapple also works really well thanks to nasty plot regen but that hasn't felt like a splashable mon to me and rather needs to be built around, hazards games hurt garga a bit but it shuts down so much to the point where you can easily have the other 5 have a stellar hazard game mu and it becomes a non issue, let alone that hurting doesn't mean removing the constant threat it is in a slower-paced game and knowing the mon we're talking about it will still a decent chunk of value off in said mu. I don't understand what people are talking about when saying that there is value in keeping it, I don't think it really helps keeping anything else balanced, and considering that the only consistent things you can have for it are sub setuppers or covert cloak mons, an item you would use just for garga as it's way worse than any other option otherwise, just screams unhealthy to me. Why did I say it's same territory as ceruledge? Because there are things you can technically do to answer said mon, and even though I think they're still too limited and often not very good to put on team basis, a little bit of breathing room could help.

How do you feel about Galarian Moltres? - 4
I'm a broken record for saying this over and over but I've believed this mon to have been too much for months now, even in previous interactions of the tier, it just has never been taken advatange of much. It's not as straight forward as other things, but the combination of it feeling like it statchecks whatever gets put infront of it (ignore that askov didn't click hurricane, yes he had it), alongside the insane tools at it's disposal make it get out of hand super consistently, and contrary to public belief I don't think it will get better because it hasn't up to this point, and we ran out of major power creep shifts the tier will go through, at least of ones we were aware of. This mon forces teras out like nothing else, even going back to previous metagames it would consistently rush tera out of skeledirge to attempt at keeping it in check because it's stats make trading with it really hard and almost always ends up being detrimental huge times. When I think of stuff we have that does really well against gmolt, like thunder wave or prios for example, I'm looking at things that stop it from going overtime, and to me a mon that goes 1x1/forces tera at worst, with the insane upsides it has, it's not something offense should have access to. And finally I also don't think banning clay would really do much to gmolt: While screens are obviously some of the best support gmolt can receive, we've seen time and time again how scary the mon is in general within every HO structure, the stats are good enough to the point where screens enhance it in a good way but it's the mon carrying the load, and I also believe that gmolt in general is seriously underexplored even for general offense or BO structures, because a mon forcing teras out as consistently as it does can allow for very silly things to take place, but again it's not an easy route to approach.

How do you feel about Latios? - 4

- Latios is really good but heavily relies on good clicks to snowball out of control, it can get around every bit of counterplay there is in the tier but requires the right coverage at the right time and being able to have a lot of turns to click which isn't straight forward to achieve. Super cool addiction if it doesn't start being as cringe as his sister.

Yeah forget it. With the meta slowing down Latios has gotten out of hand immediately: counterplay feels non-existent, some of specs' best answers or middle grounds are setup fodder for cm and viceversa, not giving it space has gotten really hard and in an attempt to play around possibilities, scarf can get surprise kills and stuff. Multiple people have already talked about what latios does and it's position in the metagame, so instead of repeating I more so wanted to linger on why I think action on latios should be prioritized, and the biggest reason to me is that there is certantly not going to be more counterplay rising up to the occasion. What we have we're already aware of, stuff like av torn does really well into specs, dew and Scarf assuming clean field, is fodder for CM; azumarill does well into CM and dew sets but tends to get abused by the others, as things like specs luster purge 2hkos on switch even without hazards, and scarf can either trick it out of an item that is strongly required to answer many threats in the metagame and gives pretty much no advantage to azu, or flip on it to abuse such a slow mon. After that everything gets a bit so-so, mons like slowking and zapdos are kind of forced into running thunder wave a lot as clicking moves different than momentum would often be equal to possibly losing out a lot in the exchange, and after that we're looking at things such as metagross, who can't even scout it's set safely as non-cm sets run coverage that make the mon deadweight, and tinkaton who is completely walled by latios' best friend, treads, who craves for as many free turns as it can get and in my eyes makes running tinkaton really hard, especially as setter when hazards are so important to so many exchanges in this metagame. And after this what else is going to pop up, even if we were to remove the other limiting mons currently present in the metagame, we don't really have anything waiting around the corner to pop up and blast latios, it's just things that would get outstat'd really hard. Metagame became friendlier to it, it feels a lot less punishing in many different ways outside of things you'd be previously looking into abusing now running thunder wave which hurts their abilities to beat other things a lot, and the change of pace just made clicking moves with the strong breakers sets infinitely easier, while also picking up on sets that were previously outshined by his sister.

How do you feel about Iron Moth? - 2
This mon is fine I think, it can just get a little out of hand with rng snowballs which is both frustrating and unpleasant, but counterplay present, has to pick between moves and most importantly it's so weak until it can get going which requires at least a few turns in my eyes, paired with defensive stats that don't really back it up against it's answers. I don't really know what else to say about iron moth as truthfully I haven't ran into it much and although the teams i've mostly been using haven't had a great mu into it, it didn't feel problematic unless it won the lottery, put a 2 just because I can see it getting out of hand if other elements were to get removed, but otherwise it's vplain

How do you feel about Greninja? - 1
I've been using it a lot, been playing against it a lot, felt completely fine. LO sets in particular feel really weak until the snowball which has made it easy for me to position against, especially backed up by strong prios who are rather common in the metagame. It has to pick between it's moves and you can often identify it's coverage by looking at opposing team's trading patterns, LO itself also damaging it's trading abilities really hard. What has definitely felt better was specs, which I'm a fan of and while it's really potent, it also hasn't over the line and still runs into LO's problems, exchanging a little bit of flexibility for power and self setup opportunities, I think their clean up abilities are on par although different so that hasn't felt like an issue. I'm not going to say this will forever be fine or anything like that but at least at this point in time it's rather weak stats keep it in check hard times and it's hard for me to call it any problematic, especially when also landing on counterplay naturally throughout building.

How competitive do you find SV UU to be right now, on a scale of 1 to 10 (with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best)? - 5
I think we have the basis for a fun and great metagame, but at this point in time it suffers from an overcentralization problem that limits our options way too much, accounting for not all but even most of the top tier threats feels really hard and even making sacrifices doesn't get you there, and I think action is needed in order to progress to an healthier position. On a side note/parenthesis I have felt like screens got hurt hard times from latias leaving the tier and that makes me even more iffy about touching clay, because even though it doesn't have any drawbacks to that it would instantly kill a playstyle that I already think it's not very good and barely gets to above average. Latios has to go first in my eyes, followed by the couple of unreasonably unhealthy mons in ceru/garga. While I gave gmolt an higher vote than those 2, and stand by it, at this point in time I don't think it's usage justifies taking action on it, which is something I've felt throughout the gen as a whole as even though in it's showing has always done insanely well, which makes it hard for me to ignore, and it's presence in the builder is so suffocating, it just doesn't show up much, and although I don't really have a good reasoning as to why that happens, it balances the issue I suppose?

I wrote this while tired so sorry for grammar mistakes/if it feels hard to read or understand some arguments, just wanted to get something out before survey ends and have had some time now to do so.

 

[Askov]

How do you feel about Ceruledge ? 4

From my experience i don't think it's that easy to ''just slap a check (like garganacl or tankchomp) and call it a day'' vs ceruledge. I'll agree that while yes, there are things that won't fold to +2 STABs, the most scary thing about ceruledge is how it can easily snowball in mid/late game scenarios given weak armor's nature of making contact moves a gamble when you're in a spot where your checks are weakened enough (which isn't that much chip needed vs a lot of things unlike other pokes that you might make a case that falls under that criteria). Tera ghost has been powerful enough to blow through pretty much all its usual checks aside from garganacl, which your opp can't really tera while ceruledge is in the back, so you can take advantage of that with your teammates (specially on HO)

You can argue that when facing ceruledge you just attack with something that doesn't make contact and that we have a fair amount of options right now to do so, but again, the ceruledge user can just position it in a way where it will be vs something that makes contact or force the opponent to play reactively just to not trigger weak armor if they can't afford to properly revenge ceruledge, which by the way is a fairly hard task to do considering that ceruledge w/o weak armor activated is fairly bulky and it has a nice base typing vs common priorities, and won't drop to av azus aqua jet for example.

Another argument you can make is that it's easy to revenge kill once you activate weak armor, but being realistic in most scenarios where it happens you'll be revenge killing it with said prio which means that ceruledge had already taken at least one poke before you even can consider killing it back, and even then it still has to be something that won't drop to its own prio, shadow sneak.

Regarding keeping its sash intact, i think that for more offensive teams we have a couple of decent options to keep hazards off for the most part (Iron Treads, Quaquaval, Cinccino, Maushold, Espeon) so it shouldn't be a huge issue for it to be at full with sash in a fair amount of scenarios

Also forgot to mention, but Bitter Blade being a fairly strong STAB that can heal you back to Sash is also another thing that your opponent has to keep in mind and it can force to riskier counterplays/playing reactively

How do you feel about Garganacl ? 4

i feel like people are overestimating a bit the fact that garg is dependant on tera because it's not really an issue when you get a huge mileage/straight up wins games by doing so, i feel like with proper gameplay most of its so called ''good checks'' are beaten by idef press/curse sets (alomomola, hydrapple, ''torn'', etc).

You can say that there are other form of counterplays but they either are:

- rare (which yes, could be the lack of trying out new stuff/underexploring options, but i feel like pokemon like Reuniclus is still somewhat limited by other meta components which makes it a bit hard to justify on teams atm aside from shitting on garg)
- just suboptimal options that is a cope way to say that they can deal with garg like cloak sinistcha or cloak bulky water types
- solid however forces you to play reactively with it or else you don't check garg long term (i.e: recover latios)
- substitute users, which i think is valid however i feel like there are not many pokes that can afford to use it w/o going out of their way badly to do so (i'd only really consider kommo-o, keldeo, okidogi and garchomp as sub options, and all of them aside from kommo-o comes with a cost by doing so)

So you could argue that there are counterplay ''if you really want to'', but as stated above, i feel like you're either limiting yourself in the builder to check it or you're not really safe vs it and would possibly need two of those ''not so safe checks'' to not risk getting steamrolled by it in the long term

How do you feel about Galarian Moltres ? 4

This one might be a bit more controversial but i think it still pulls up the same dumb sweeps it used to in SS when it got banned, and its checks are still fairly limited. One argument that could be made is that now we have teras to defensively keep it in check, however moltres can also make use of it so get setup opportunities in scenarios where it'd have no business in doing so or just brute forcing its way with tera dark.

Goltres also has a pretty good bulk which gives it a good amount of opportunities to setup even w/o using tera, a notable one being latios which vs goltres offensive mus it has to be very aware of using draco because goltres pretty much turns it into a big setup fodder if it ever does so. It's also worth mentioning that in most scenarios you get a free +2 just because of Berserk + Sitrus Berry, which coupled with its own setup moves, it's not that hard to end up on a scenario where you'll have a +2 spe +2 spa Goltres and steamroll the game from there.

How do you feel about Latios ? 3

I wasn't that high on Latios at first but CM Soul Dew Tera Steel sets popping up made it worth for me in keeping an eye on it just because it's pretty strong and fairly hard to proper revenge kill once it gets a boost and has barely any moves that can be used to deal with it w/o having to take an attack, while sets like Scarf are still solid and viable as well. Another factor that makes it harder to deal with is that being at a high speed tier and having the necessary bulk to eat most priorities really limits the revenge killing options and most of its common checks can be beaten with set tweaks like:

- shadow ball for metagross, which btw still takes a fair chunk from dracos
- aura sphere for immediate damage on treads and tyranitar
- thunder(bolt) for azu/empoleon (which is rare but i've seen it a bit just to check latios/manaphy) and also hits goltres w/o having to draco
- twave/psyshock are options to combat av torn more reliably
- tera blast fire deals immediately with scizor and tinkaton while also covering metagross and treads
- surf with tera water makes it have a reliable and overall good stab alongside luster purge/psychic

So, with all of those good traits why am i only giving it a 3?

Because while i could be proven wrong in the future, i think that we still have good solid checks that we don't need to go too out of our way in the teambuilder to properly have on a team, and that we could even have more options to check it if we get rid of more problematic elements that forces us to prioritize having answers to them (ceruledge, garganacl, goltres)

How do you feel about Iron Moth ? 2

That's another poke that i feel like could potentially become an issue in the future but right now is manageable. Speed boosting sets are kinda weak if you don't proc fiery dance boosts and will often have a hard time vs anything that isn't super offensive. +Spa Agility sets are the scarier ones, however i still feel like it can just fall short of getting out of control even at +1 and while you can use a similar argument about how you position/plan the game to make it steamroll like ceruledge, i feel like you have to be more precise with moth just because of booster energys nature.

How do you feel about Greninja ? 2

It's without any doubts a pretty good pokemon and a scary cleaner/breaker, however i feel like every set it uses have to make enough concessions that keeps it in check, which are:

- lo sets, which is probably the scariest one at first sight, but LO chip alongside other potential chips like rocks makes it not have much mileage, although i'll admit that if you plan it properly you'll force a kill which isn't bad

- specs sets possibly are the most consistent ones just because you don't get chipped which can make it harder to deal with long term and you don't entirely rely on it getting battle bond activated/having to properly time battle bond to make the most out of it to make it efficient since it's already strong enough without it, but the downside of going with specs is that while its STABs are usually powerful enough vs most pokemon, it still can be taken advantage of depending on which move you lock yourself into

 

[udongirl]

How do you feel about Ceruledge ? 3

It remains one of the hardest sweepers to stop, not to mention powerful enough to sustain sash with bitter blade, and Ghost is the best offensive type, so it's no surprise that a Pokémon that uses it from its high speed with 110 stab is a threat. But without cc it loses to tyranitar (which is clearly back in the metagame after the DLC) and without shadow sneak it is easy to handle standing around. Suspect looks appropriate after banning other threats.

How do you feel about Garganacl ? 2

I might have responded with a 1. While I don't deny that salt cure is a highly unpleasant because it requires a different counterplay than the others, many players seem to view receiving a salt cure chip as if it were the end of the world. It's not fun to play against them but I do not believe it is appropriate to ban a pokemon for not being fun to play against.

How do you feel about Galarian Moltres ? 1

I agree with moutemoute's post.

How do you feel about Latios ? 4

Clearly the most powerful pokemon in the tier, specs,scarf,cm all have valid uses in the metagame. it is much easier to put into a build than other tops like garchomp and greninja and has extremely good synergy with terra. I think counters such as tyranitar and metagross work well enough, but I also think a ban is unavoidable because latios is so extraordinary that the cost of not using it is too great and therefore seems to be narrowing the metagame.

How do you feel about Iron Moth ? 1

It's not really broken in the current meta because it has lost its niche to latios and it has bad mu vs it, and it tends to not play well with potentially suspect pokemon such as ceruledge, so there is a good chance it will be banned in the future depending on how the meta game develops, but it doesn't look like it will happen now. However, it does not appear to be banned at this time.

How do you feel about Greninja ? 2

Players who are much more skilled than me have already explained the difficulty of activating battle bond, I will mention that even a buffed greninja is difficult to sweep without properly weakening the opposing team. greninja is powerful only with tera hydro pump. but the move that hits hardest on pokemon that have resistance to it is dark pulse at 80 bp. This often causes greninja to fail to sweep even after boosting. Of course, there are many ways to deal with greninja, such as invulnerable special tanks like goodra and AV hoopa, and priority.

 

[NobodyActually]

How do you feel about Ceruledge ? 3

Very hard to stop it from getting a swords dance up and picking up a ko. After a weak armour boost very few things can outspeed it and most priority doesnt kill. BU sets are also very strong and can turn the matchup on “counters” with tera. However it wants to run cc but cant fit it in and has semi-reliable answers such as garg/alo

How do you feel about Garganacl ? 1

Plenty of mons to keep this thing in check and any cloak mon just walls it. Tough to deal with for some teams but not unhealthy in any way.

How do you feel about Galarian Moltres ? 3

Definition of a matchup fish. While not as broken as ceruledge a mon like this is very unhealthy for the metagame.

How do you feel about Latios ? 4

Ban. A variety of viable sets and is very easy to just slap on a team.

How do you feel about Iron Moth ? 2

Not as broken as people make it out to be. Booster speed sets dont have enough initial power to really snowball even after a special attack raise and booster special attack sets are very weak to faster mons. However if ceruledge/latios go I can definitely see this mon being too much for the metagame.

How do you feel about Greninja ? 1

Fine for the metagame. Definitely puts some pressure when teambuilding but a well built team should fairly easily be able to prevent it fron snowballing

 

[Geopolitics]

"How do I feel about..."

4

Extremely splashable offensive threat that doesn't really need substantial support. Extremely difficult to discern whether it is SD or BU and extremely aided by Tera. Still playable, but feels like you end up sacking half your team in order to deal with this thing. Would support a ban

2

Cloak is really nice versus this thing, but have been having solid success building around multiple Knock users + this (for instance, CB tar plays really well with this - sand gives spdef boost while providing knock off support

5

this thing, from what I can tell, was extremely good last gen and tera makes it even better. The checks for this are few and far between and most of them either lack recovery, lack the ability to hit back, or both. Would support a ban

4

specs is ridiculous, especially with tera dragon. The boost that this has received with Luster Purge narrows the field of options (things like spdef covert cloak Garg, SpDef Emp come to mind). Not nearly as oppressive as moltres-g because the recovery options have other forms of utility and have recovery, but would support a ban

1

Annoying for sure, but assuredly suffers from 4MSS (e-ball? tera ground?) that limits its ability to run through checks/counters

2

Maybe I'm just a gastrodon enthusiast but this thing feels pretty easy to deal with all things considered - this tier has an abundance of water resists and, if running three STABs (shuriken, water stab, dark pulse) then it's pretty crammed moveslot wise. Better than iron moth (mostly due to battle bond) and maybe worth a look once some other things get phased out of the tier, but no immediate action needed imo

Editing this post. Let me put y'all on real quick.


Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Wish
- Iron Head
- U-turn

This set is probably my favorite glue in the tier right now. This spread maximizes bulk while ensuring Jirachi outruns modest Polteageist before a shell smash (who is also, to me, grossly underrated right now). This shares a typing with Metagross and generally is a check to some of the same things ( ), but imo there are a few huge reasons to slap this on over Metagross:

1. Jirachi gets U-Turn

Metagross generally is a great Pokemon in this tier because it is a little bit physically bulkier than Jirachi. But, Metagross can be a pain in the ass to work with because it sort of tanks your momentum and forces you to make a read or two to get back in lockstep with your opponent. Rachi's access to u-turn alleviates you of this responsibility.

2. Jirachi gets Wish

Jirachi's wish allows it to get insane recovery, something that Metagross does not have access to. This, obviously, goes beyond helping itself - pairing this Jirachi with things that generally struggle vs Latios and Oger-C and lack ability to heal (such as CB Tyranitar, Specs Keldeo) can flip bad matchups into good ones very quickly.

3. Jirachi has greater special bulk

I don't know if this is just me, but I have seen a lot more Latios than Oger-C lately. Jirachi is, objectively, a better switch in versus Latios due to healing and better SpDef.

The ability to roll a check to both Latios and Oger-C into one Pokemon - while giving you Wish support - is making this thing a staple for me right now.

 

[BigFatMantis]

Will we get to see the results of the survey?

lily edit: ya https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/uu-updates.3713990/post-9941719

 

[Bruxish supremacy]

How good is offensive ribombee?

 

[buayagator]

How good is offensive ribombee?

better ask here https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/simple-questions-simple-answers-thread.3714351/

ribombee only niche is web setter on HO, the mandatory moves is mooblast, sticky web, and stun spore. maybe you could give her quiver dance but its better to add another coverage like psychic.

 

[Moutemoute]

How good is offensive ribombee?

I've been playing Choice Specs Ribombee and it's quite decent and fun to use. Ribombee's speed tier is quite amazing which allows it to put it some work by being able to pressure Greninja or Latios but also even more bulky Pokémon such as AV Tornadus-T and even things like Garganacl thanks to Tera Fairy. While it does require support it's definitively something usable. Once Tera Fairy used, it's also a quite decent check to Garganacl thanks to its ability which denies Salt Cure chip. Typing before Tera isnt bad either and allows it to somewhat check Garchomp.

Ribombee @ Choice Specs
Ability: Shield Dust
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bug Buzz
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Energy Ball / Trick

 

[Jonbot]

Survey stats are out: https://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/9941719/

Looks like ceruledge might go and there’s probably gonna be a suspect test soon

 

[Szark]

Survey stats are out: https://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/9941719/

Looks like ceruledge might go and there’s probably gonna be a suspect test soon

The suspect has been out before the results
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-uu-suspect-process-r4-so-bitter.3734785/