I agree, but I think the precedent is more of us saying that Eleki getting any coverage would break it, and it finally got coverage. It’s slightly analogous to Kyurem-B getting a physical ice move, which was the one thing that kept it balanced. Definitely a bit weird, but I can kind of see where it was coming from.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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I think what they mean in like council chat they can’t use the argument, but nothing’s stopping a councilmember to use that in their decision.
It is worth considering that Regieleki's Speed is so absurdly high naturally (Max Neutral speed ties Positive Scarfchomp and Positive outspeeds Booster-d Valiant) that depending on your benchmarks, it can elect for an Offensive nature and EV into its bulk for certain benchmarks if need-be. The ability to run Rash/Modest alone makes it a lot more powerful than that Base 100 would suggest (closer to Base 115 Neutrals) on top of an ability that's "Adaptability but it works with Tera" (relevant since it wants Tera for Coverage)
(Mew chosen for a basic statline, this is to illustrate Power rather than the ideal move to click in Crunch vs IC)
252+ SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 202-238 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 175-207 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Regieleki's Electric attacks pack a significant punch coming off a mon that uninvested outspeeds Max Positive Dragapult, so Tera's Coverage for being able to touch grounds (not even OHKO itself, but just to prevent free-turns after chip as it did last Gen) is all it really needs in another slot. Eleki doesn't need to even commit to your Tera unless your Opponent still has their sturdy Resist/Immunity intact, when several of these Pokemon are heavily burdened Glues like GT, Ting-Lu, and Lando-T, or potentially passive Momentum sinks like Clodsire and Amoongus.
If there's one thing the game has been making apparent to me since Gen 6, it's that a low Base Stat is easily compensated by abilities and other boosts being piled on the Pokemon: Greninja's Protean coverage, Dragapult's ridiculously spammable Shadow Ball, or just funny calcs like this I saw as a joke
252 Atk Altaria Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 132-156 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Salamence Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 134-162 (39.2 - 47.5%) -- approx. 3HKO
Eleki is in the same boat, previously held back by its strongest moves having an omnipresent immunity that, while not gone totally, is much easier for it to circumvent now.
Yeah, it is also weird when the main concern about these mons is the lack of defensive counterplay, when in Natdex there are more options but Regileki and Urishifu are still considered busted there
Really shocked about Mega Weavile, I think it's one of the most boring tasteless mons ever. But in all fairness, Scizor stonks going up so I can't complain.
I wonder how the unban of Pao will affect Baxcalibur since its rise up was basically caused by the ban of it. Scizor will see rise now but I doubt he'll last long on the tier again.
I think Bax might hold on a bit better since its nuclear damage output and some amount of bulk is a distinguishing factor from Chien-Pao now that the Leopard's absence led people to actually play with it and see how they differ.
252 Atk Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 213-252 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 165-195 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
I think its usage will decline a bit but it's distinct enough for Pao to not make it disappear. Might even be a good partner for overwhelming shared checks or just capitalizing on bulkier teams that handle Pao but still crumple to its higher output
Hisuian Zoroark can be used in online battles, so I see no reason at all why this would be a thing
While Bax has a bigger damage output with GR, having a type that is inmune to your main attack is a big disadvantage. Also, Pao trades bulk for its amazing speed stat which forces Pult to run +speed natures and gives it a better match up against fast teams.
If you’re unbanning Chien-Pao, you might as well unban Zacian-Hero.
Zacian has more power initially, but loses it when it switches out. It’s Close Combat does about the same as Sacred Sword after losing IS.
Zacian is faster, but the only things it can outspeed that Chien-Pao can’t are +1 Neutral nature Bax/GT and Postitive Nature Barraskewda outside of rain (and Chien-Pao has dual priority).
Zacian has many coverage options, but can have 4MSS (only way for it to get past Skeledirge is for it to have Iron Head/Poison Jab + Crunch so it’s not walled by either pre or post Tera Skeledirge) while Ice, Dark, and Fighting hit almost everything.
All Zacian has significant over Chien-Pao is bulk/survivability. That’s it. That’s pretty significant but that all Zacian really has over Chien-Pao.
This is not actually asking to Unban Chien-Pao, but rather showing that this thing is stupidly broken and has no business being unbanned.
Zacian has more power initially, but loses it when it switches out. It’s Close Combat does about the same as Sacred Sword after losing IS.
Zacian is faster, but the only things it can outspeed that Chien-Pao can’t are +1 Neutral nature Bax/GT and Postitive Nature Barraskewda outside of rain (and Chien-Pao has dual priority).
Zacian has many coverage options, but can have 4MSS (only way for it to get past Skeledirge is for it to have Iron Head/Poison Jab + Crunch so it’s not walled by either pre or post Tera Skeledirge) while Ice, Dark, and Fighting hit almost everything.
All Zacian has significant over Chien-Pao is bulk/survivability. That’s it. That’s pretty significant but that all Zacian really has over Chien-Pao.
I think you're underselling how huge that bulk difference is. The difference between 92/115/115 bulk with fairy typing and 80/80/65 with a stealth rock weakness and way worse defensive typing makes chein pao much easier to wear down and revenge kill. Also makes setting up much, much easier. The stealth rock weakness in particular means you don't have to choose to either get worn down quickly but have high power or have longevity with boots but have your checks sit on you all game. I honestly really don't want to see chein pao back but I really don't think the comparison to zacian is apt. I am surprised zacian wasn't on the slate considering shit like fluttermane and spectrier are, but I don't think chein pao is at a similar power level to zacian.
Not opposed to try Zacian in OU, but Chien Pao is not "stupidly broken". It might end up being broken, but it has enough merit to be tested. Ice Dark is better offensively than Mono Fairy, but clearly worse by a lot defensively, Zacian will be able to come into the field more often. Chien Pao has some almost surefy counters (Water Tauros comes to mind), Zacian has great coverage to smash almost every Fairy resist. They are comparable Mons but they are not the same. Zacian in fact has 80 higher Stats than Chien Pao and more optimized too (out of 660, 80 go to useless Special Attack, opposed to 90 out of 570 on Chien Pao).
Both are separate Mons and have to be judged independetly.
Whether Zacian-H is eligible can be discussed later. It's still faster than Pao, has 92/115/115 bulk and next to zero weakness (steel and poison don't really exist as offensive moves, also steel types die to CC)
SD Zacian-H can still destroy the meta, and it has enough bulk to click SD twice. Play Rough/CC/Crunch is perfect coverage
Right now we can just focus on Zamazenta duo
SD Zacian-H can still destroy the meta, and it has enough bulk to click SD twice. Play Rough/CC/Crunch is perfect coverage
Right now we can just focus on Zamazenta duo
That would be all cool and stuff if we actually got some stuff to reliably revenge kill it, which will be Magearna (broken), Regieleki (broken and not reliable), Urshifu-R (probably broken and probably not reliable), and Zamazenta-H (probably not reliable either because of Dauntless Shield's nerf).
I know that Zacian really should be Ubers, but Chien-Pao should be Ubers too. It's what some people would call a sidegrade.
Also with Chien-Pao getting dropped, certainly both Zama forms are dropping too.
I hear your regieleki problem and I raise you
Iron Treads: @ Assault Vest
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 44 HP / 252 SpD / 212 Spe
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin
- Volt Switch
For offensive teams, this thing could be pretty good as it checks both specs tera regieleki and gholdengo (tho it struggles against specs unless it’s make it rain) and can ohko them w/ eq or iron head. It can also pivot into any resisted attacks from the special attackers of the tier like dragapult’s and walking wake’s dracos, while also checking hatterene. It’s not good, but it’s the most effective stop to regieleki outside of tera fire clodsire.
Iron Treads: @ Assault Vest
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 44 HP / 252 SpD / 212 Spe
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin
- Volt Switch
For offensive teams, this thing could be pretty good as it checks both specs tera regieleki and gholdengo (tho it struggles against specs unless it’s make it rain) and can ohko them w/ eq or iron head. It can also pivot into any resisted attacks from the special attackers of the tier like dragapult’s and walking wake’s dracos, while also checking hatterene. It’s not good, but it’s the most effective stop to regieleki outside of tera fire clodsire.
I think Zacian-H does a LOT more with 1 free Choice Band Boost than Zama-H does with 1 free +1 Defense. Protosynthesis/Quark Drive have shown well what a free 30% offensive boost can do to the likes of Roaring Moon, and then you make that a 50% boost on a 660 BST Fairy-type? Unlike Zamazenta-H, I think Zacian-H would still be too much for OU.
Man thank the HEAVENS we don't have to deal with flutter mane at home (literally)
People were talking about Giratina earlier and I am not convinced it would be all that broken. Sure, a Calm Mind set could be pretty potent, but would it be that much better than Cresselia - which has mostly sat down in the RU / NU tier? I personally don't think so. If it's broken, it would largely be because of Tera since it's base typing has weaknesses to too many common moves which Tera would negate. It does have some really hard MUs like Garganacl that would be difficult to overcome.
I could still see Giratina being broken on its own merits because it's initial power is OK and it's bulk is ludicrous but it's still worth testing out imo.
I could still see Giratina being broken on its own merits because it's initial power is OK and it's bulk is ludicrous but it's still worth testing out imo.
I'd rather test lugia if it comes back in the future over giratina altered, as altered is a powerful wall that can bust through teams with ease, at least with lugia there actually is a case to be made for it being tested if it comes back this gen
Zamazenta-H can still take a hit and absolutely shut down CB sets as long as you don't get flinched too much which is massive, also lots of pokemon are getting scald back, which should also keep it in line with all the burns being thrown around, especially with pex/glowking regaining scald, heatran, and volcanion around.
People are talking about Iron Threads being a great pokemon against Regieleki, but what about Iron Hands? With Assault Vest, this thing has a better bulk isn't it ?
And we can drain punch easily to keep it alive.
I'm really scared about Chien-Pao and Magearna and I think they will be hard to handle.
And we can drain punch easily to keep it alive.
I'm really scared about Chien-Pao and Magearna and I think they will be hard to handle.
In what way? Lugia's bulk makes Pex look like glass, it has Multiscale, Recover, Resttalk, viable attacking and speed stats... No chance in hell it's OU material.
Chien-Pao isn't a sidegrade to Zacian-H at all. Chien-Pao is weak to rocks, as poor bulk (80/80/65) and bad defensive typing. Pao is weak to rock, fire, fighting, steel, bug and fairy. All of this makes it harder for Pao to switch in repeatedly or get its boosts and sweep.
Zacian has very good bulk for a purely offensive Mon (92/115/115), and is weak to steel and poison only, two uncommon offensive typing. It's also not weak to hazards or U-turn. This gives Zacian plenty of opportunity to setup since there are very few OU mons that can force it out. Zacian is also less reliant on tera, so if Tera gets banned later, not much would change for it.
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