Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Turtlek]

I don't think it's the most broken but it's the set I've been seeing the most (QD + Wisp), yes I have seen Tera Ground Volc which can be a scary mon for certain opposing walls it sees switching in like Toxapex. Yeah Heatran will just run opposing teras like flying which will still allow it to deal better against Volc. Since Gen 5, Volc has been going against Heatran, this is the first time (Gen 9) where there isn't a OU mon like Heatran (Flash Fire with good typing) that naturally walls Volc excluding HP Ground / Tera Ground techs. This is why Volc has been pretty uncomfortable to deal with in the current meta.

*cough cough points at tera cough cough*

What can Volc do to Ceruledge and Skeledirge? They both seem very solid counters outside of weird Teras

 

[658Greninja]

What makes Worm balanced with Shed Tail compared to Cyclizar is

Worm only gets 1-2 chances at most to get off a Shed Tail at most. You could pair it with Healing Wish Hatt, but that still takes up an additional teamslot and only increases the chances by 1. The chances are lesser when you factor in how slow the mon is, and how frail it is on the special side. Not to mention Knock from Tusks, Meow, Valiant, etc limits the number to 1 without factoring in Healing Wish. Compare this to Cyclizar who is not only fast asf, but gets multiple Shed Tails off thanks to Regen. Worm conforms with the high risk/reward ratio while Cycli skews it in its favor.

 

[zyzzyva]

Skeledirge is a solid answer to defensive Volcarona, particularly Wisp variants, but more offensive Volcarona sets have some ways past Dirge.

In particular, Volc on Psychic Terrain teams:

252+ SpA Life Orb Tera Psychic Volcarona Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge in Psychic Terrain: 242-286 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Volc on sun teams:

252+ SpA Life Orb Tera Fire Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge in Sun: 229-270 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and Tera Ground Volc:

252+ SpA Tera Ground Volcarona Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 254-302 (61.8 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

can all severely threaten and even beat Skele depending on its Tera. It requires some support obviously, but Volc can do it. SpDef Ceruledge may be a bit of a more consistent answer but the Psychic Terrain Volc can still probably beat it.

 

[YNM]

By the way speaking of how broken Volcarona is, BKC just released a great insight on the competitive influence of Volc in gen 5 and what makes it such a great mon, so make sure to check it out.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

What makes Worm balanced with Shed Tail compared to Cyclizar is

Worm only gets 1-2 chances at most to get off a Shed Tail at most. You could pair it with Healing Wish Hatt, but that still takes up an additional teamslot and only increases the chances by 1. The chances are lesser when you factor in how slow the mon is, and how frail it is on the special side. Not to mention Knock from Tusks, Meow, Valiant, etc limits the number to 1 without factoring in Healing Wish. Compare this to Cyclizar who is not only fast asf, but gets multiple Shed Tails off thanks to Regen. Worm conforms with the high risk/reward ratio while Cycli skews it in its favor.

remember just because orthworm isn't broken doesn't mean that shed tail isn't at its core, getting a free turn or two to set up without having to slot sub is pretty broken. And stuff like dragonite, espathra, and Volc have proven that time and time again that shed tail isn't necessarily healthy at all. (Dragonite and volc aren't broken, but constantly teeter to being broken due to shed tail enabling them to set up for free.) Sometimes one negative priority shed tail is really all you need to 6-0 a team or give yourself a big advantage, and that isn't fun to play against.

 

[Magcargo]

Dragonite @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Hurricane
- Ice Beam
- Roost

I stole this set from Pinecoishot and its actually, like, really good. Has excellent 1v1 match-ups against many of the meta's top dogs like Cinderace, Great Tusk, Corviknight, Meowscarada, and Breloom, and has a lot of moveset variation making it hard for Pokemon like Gholdengo to exploit as well. Being specially based also makes it less crippled by burns, which can help in a pinch vs dirge. Hurricane is a garbage move and it does have bad match-ups vs many Pokemon such as Garganacl and Hatterene, but if you can look past that, you'll find a Pokemon that can reliably beat many of the metagame's strongest threats

 

[SpritePony]

Just finished going through the survey. These were my rankings and my thoughts;

How do you enjoy the metagame?/How balanced do you feel the metagame is?
Both scored an 8 for me. Honestly, most of my weirdness around this is Volc, Dnite, and Amoonguss. Volc and Dnite basically demand me to run Dirge, and Amoonguss always requires me to put something on my team to sleep unless I have a Sap Sipper/Grass type/Dengo on the team (which is actually a lot more rare, since if I have Dirge, I'm hyper sensitive about running Dengo as well, and with some of my cores, there's no GOOD Grass to slot in.) Overall I generally enjoy it... But my team building DOES feel a tad restricted. Probably a skill issue.

- 2. Originally I felt that its kit, good bulk + rocks + Salt Cure + status immunity, was too much. But since I've fallen into just spamming my Dirge with Sub, and using a Covert Cloak mon on MOST teams, Garg really isn't much of a problem. Especially when the opponent is ADAMANT on trying to break my Dirge with it instead of going into something else. Mostly just an annoyance to play around, not really a full on threat.

- 4. Without a doubt, the best setup sweeper in the game right now. If you don't have a Tera Fire Unaware Pokemon (or don't Tera your Dirge), and they aren't a Tera + Tera Blast that whomps you, this Pokemon alone pretty much demands the usage of Skeledirge. Dirge beats two of its main sets (Morning Sun + Wisp // QD 3 Attacks without SE Tera Blast), without needing to be afraid of any kind of burns. Other than that, it's hard to think of any other Pokemon that can hard check Volcarona right now. But if you don't have a Dirge/Tera Fire Unaware on your team (or it got KO'd), then Volc usually can just run train.

Shed Tail (why don't we have a sub doll emote?) - 5. Ever since people began clamoring for Cyclizar's ban, I've always been of the party that Shed Tail was the problem, not Cyclizar. Cyc took the OU spot over Orth, and Orth dropped to UU where it began causing shenanigans. Cyc got banned, Orth came back to OU a ban wave later, and look what it's doing -- Shed Tail shenanigans again. This time it was with Espathra. Espathra got banned, but Shed Tail is STILL used to pass into setup sweepers like Dnite or Volc. Considering that Baton Pass was banned so long ago, and this move is Sub + Baton Pass in one, Shed Tail should finally get the axe and Cyclizar should come back.
I'm generally not one for complex bans like this, and I understand why the council is hesitant on it, but Shed Tail has always been a, and the, problem. Not Cyclizar.

Other comments: It may be a fragile Pokemon which can be susceptible to priority, but it's the fastest non-scarf Pokemon IN THE GAME, and has like.. 3 or 4 different sets it can run. It's impossible to know which set it is running without being punished for it. Band/Expert Belt Physical Attacker? Your special check just got dented or knocked out. Specs? Bye bye physical check! Wisp + Hex? Well, there goes your priority! (Unless you're Bax.) You have 120/100/142 offensive stats and are such an imposing threat. I see Dragapult in team preview and I go "Great... Now I have to try to perfectly play around this and hope I don't get shafted." On top of this, Infiltrator makes it so things like Substitute and Screens mean nothing, and Clear Body allows Phys DD sets to not care about anything, really. While I, most of the time, am able to deal with it.. Dragapult just feels like it's a little too much right now. Could be another skill issue, though.

 

[Mega Breloom]

Garg: makes Pex worse forcing it to run convert cloak and also makes other mons use sub, making Pex lose to them. Will be banned.
Volc: tera psychic 2HKO Pex. Will be banned.
Orth: Pex can't do nothing to it while it passes a free sub, which makes Pex useless against the incoming mon. Will get banned.

Now talking seriously, Orth without Espartha is way worse, that combination already had consistency issues with it being match up dependant, and now the risk-reward of using Orth isn't the best for the Orth user, the lack of renegerator and utility moves Cyclizar moves is what makes Orth manageable.
Volc does what it does every gen, it always finds a way to lure its checks/counters, however it can't beat them all at the same time (unlike Chi-yu for example) and it isn't like if you could pick which tera type use at team preview. Like every gen, it is a great mon but it isn't impossible to beat or forces you to use specific things just to beat it.
Garg has been discussed for months now, just like Pao or Espartha it has a huge impact on team building and the answers to it sometimes doesn't add much to your team outside just beat Garg, just for sharing that trait with the two last bans I think a suspect for Garg could be fair.

 

[7*Red]

Negative priority Shed Tail??
If you allow Orthworm to come in for free and pass you're probably playing the same way against Parting Shot... Do we just ban all defensive pivoting?

What makes Worm balanced with Shed Tail compared to Cyclizar is

Worm only gets 1-2 chances at most to get off a Shed Tail at most. You could pair it with Healing Wish Hatt, but that still takes up an additional teamslot and only increases the chances by 1. The chances are lesser when you factor in how slow the mon is, and how frail it is on the special side. Not to mention Knock from Tusks, Meow, Valiant, etc limits the number to 1 without factoring in Healing Wish. Compare this to Cyclizar who is not only fast asf, but gets multiple Shed Tails off thanks to Regen. Worm conforms with the high risk/reward ratio while Cycli skews it in its favor.

remember just because orthworm isn't broken doesn't mean that shed tail isn't at its core, getting a free turn or two to set up without having to slot sub is pretty broken. And stuff like dragonite, espathra, and Volc have proven that time and time again that shed tail isn't necessarily healthy at all. (Dragonite and volc aren't broken, but constantly teeter to being broken due to shed tail enabling them to set up for free.) Sometimes one negative priority shed tail is really all you need to 6-0 a team or give yourself a big advantage, and that isn't fun to play against.

 

[mothra_moth]

4/5 in Garg.
Looking back I would bump it to 3/5 for being overly reliant on Tera. I think everything barring it's Block set is healthy.
2/5 on Volc.
Match-Up Moth being talked about, while also being Tera reliant in most cases, along with taking advantage of Shed Tails when need be. I wonder if there's a common factor here...
5/5 on Shed Tail.
Hmm... a substitute being passed akin to Baton Pass, a move that's been historically banned? I wonder if this is healthy...

I'm biased on the Volcarona issue so I can't speak much on it. I just don't see it as a huge issue yet.

 

[7*Red]

Cyclizar's Regenerator being overlooked time and again is just being silly at this pt.

Orthworm gets 1 pass per game on average.

These are not the same.

Some of you genuinely haven't even tried to use the worm and develop an understanding of how it actually works in practice it shows.

Just finished going through the survey. These were my rankings and my thoughts;

How do you enjoy the metagame?/How balanced do you feel the metagame is?
Both scored an 8 for me. Honestly, most of my weirdness around this is Volc, Dnite, and Amoonguss. Volc and Dnite basically demand me to run Dirge, and Amoonguss always requires me to put something on my team to sleep unless I have a Sap Sipper/Grass type/Dengo on the team (which is actually a lot more rare, since if I have Dirge, I'm hyper sensitive about running Dengo as well, and with some of my cores, there's no GOOD Grass to slot in.) Overall I generally enjoy it... But my team building DOES feel a tad restricted. Probably a skill issue.

- 2. Originally I felt that its kit, good bulk + rocks + Salt Cure + status immunity, was too much. But since I've fallen into just spamming my Dirge with Sub, and using a Covert Cloak mon on MOST teams, Garg really isn't much of a problem. Especially when the opponent is ADAMANT on trying to break my Dirge with it instead of going into something else. Mostly just an annoyance to play around, not really a full on threat.

- 4. Without a doubt, the best setup sweeper in the game right now. If you don't have a Tera Fire Unaware Pokemon (or don't Tera your Dirge), and they aren't a Tera + Tera Blast that whomps you, this Pokemon alone pretty much demands the usage of Skeledirge. Dirge beats two of its main sets (Morning Sun + Wisp // QD 3 Attacks without SE Tera Blast), without needing to be afraid of any kind of burns. Other than that, it's hard to think of any other Pokemon that can hard check Volcarona right now. But if you don't have a Dirge/Tera Fire Unaware on your team (or it got KO'd), then Volc usually can just run train.

Shed Tail (why don't we have a sub doll emote?) - 5. Ever since people began clamoring for Cyclizar's ban, I've always been of the party that Shed Tail was the problem, not Cyclizar. Cyc took the OU spot over Orth, and Orth dropped to UU where it began causing shenanigans. Cyc got banned, Orth came back to OU a ban wave later, and look what it's doing -- Shed Tail shenanigans again. This time it was with Espathra. Espathra got banned, but Shed Tail is STILL used to pass into setup sweepers like Dnite or Volc. Considering that Baton Pass was banned so long ago, and this move is Sub + Baton Pass in one, Shed Tail should finally get the axe and Cyclizar should come back.
I'm generally not one for complex bans like this, and I understand why the council is hesitant on it, but Shed Tail has always been a, and the, problem. Not Cyclizar.

Other comments: It may be a fragile Pokemon which can be susceptible to priority, but it's the fastest non-scarf Pokemon IN THE GAME, and has like.. 3 or 4 different sets it can run. It's impossible to know which set it is running without being punished for it. Band/Expert Belt Physical Attacker? Your special check just got dented or knocked out. Specs? Bye bye physical check! Wisp + Hex? Well, there goes your priority! (Unless you're Bax.) You have 120/100/142 offensive stats and are such an imposing threat. I see Dragapult in team preview and I go "Great... Now I have to try to perfectly play around this and hope I don't get shafted." On top of this, Infiltrator makes it so things like Substitute and Screens mean nothing, and Clear Body allows Phys DD sets to not care about anything, really. While I, most of the time, am able to deal with it.. Dragapult just feels like it's a little too much right now. Could be another skill issue, though.

 

[SpritePony]

Cyclizar's Regenerator being overlooked time and again is just being silly at this pt.

Orthworm gets 1 pass per game on average.

These are not the same.

First off, you need to learn how to multi-reply lmao. You're spamming the thread with responses.
Second, I am not overlooking Regenerator. Yes, Cyclizar was more popular BECAUSE of Regenerator, but the problem is Shed Tail. It's a Substitute and Baton Pass in one. Given that Baton Pass is already banned, and this move achieves the same thing in a single turn, Shed Tail is an issue. I have no problems leading something or VoltTurning into something that claps Orthworm, but stopping the Shed Tail is 50/50 right now. Using my Skeledirge as an example:
252+ SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Ghost Orthworm: 132-156 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Even on a max roll, you don't stop Shed Tail if they are willing to commit their Tera. If not, then the Shed Tail is stopped then and there (if they don't outpace you.)
You get nearly a free Shed Tail vs Tusk, as they cannot EQ/Rush you due to Earth Eater, and if they go for the obvious Close Combat, you just click Tera.
Amoonguss can't do anything, as Orth outspeeds it...
Breloom vs PhysDef Orth:
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Orthworm: 120-144 (34.8 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

We can go on and on and on about various numbers and such, and it won't do us any good. Orthworm can find NUMEROUS good switch-ins to take advantage of, and has a good amount of Teras it can use to secure a Shed Tail. Even if you man up against it, if the opponent can get a safe switch into Orth (either on a ground move or through VoltTurning), it's often a dice roll as to whether or not it can pass that Shed Tail, crits not included.

Just because Orth gets "1 pass per game" doesn't mean that Shed Tail isn't a problem lmfao. It frees up a slot on a passing target (from not needing to run Sub itself), and allows you to get in safely against a number of Pokemon before committing to setting up. It's not a defensive pivoting tool, lmao. It's an offensive pivoting tool.

 

[Chlora]

Orthworm can find NUMEROUS good switch-ins to take advantage of, and has a good amount of Teras it can use to secure a Shed Tail.

I don't disagree that shed tail is really unfun to fight against and can lead to very cheese and unstoppable wins/losses, but could you tell me what orthworm can switch in on freely? In my time playing with it, i could really only manage to get it in safely on mostly mons such as Clodsire, Glimmora, Grimmsnarl, Iron Treads and Toxapex, by virture of them either being too passive with their usual kits or not being able to hit orthworm for any significant enough damage to even remotely deny the shed tail. Other physical mons such as RM and Kingambit, despite also not being able to deny the pass, can simply set up on it and follow up with a tera to safely survive most recievers and still sweep a good chunk of the team.

So, genuinely, i'd like to know of these "numerous" switch-ins. Unironically, i'm really curious to know what. Not meaning to come off as an asshole here


Also, if i may add, Tera-ing Orthworm just to get a succesful pass is not a great play most of the time, since a lot of it's setup sweeper recievers NEED their own Tera to accomplish meaningful game progress a lot of the time (like volcarona and iron moth requiring tera ground to get past skeledirge, formerly espathra requiring tera fighting/fire to get past any dark type, etc).


I say this as someone who has experience playing with Orthworm, and i'd like to hear what you have to say about those 2 points

Breloom vs PhysDef Orth:
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Orthworm: 120-144 (34.8 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Spore lol
If you were already spored on something else, good chance Breloom instead already has either used an SD or subbed, which both will prove problematic for whatever sweeper you're passing to, considering not only will it's priority mach punches do a ton, but bullet seed will do even more and multi-hits so it will guaranteedly break any sub, even before a +2. Volcarona included:

252 Atk Technician Breloom Bulldoze vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Volcarona: 120-142 (32.1 - 38%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

Shed Tail is a problem, in my opinion. In order to prevent lead Orthworm from getting off its Shed Tail and switching into a sweeper than can effectively instantly win the game depending on matchup (i.e. Volcarona, Pult, Azumarill, Dnite), you are effectively required to lead a semi-fast special attacker, preferably one with a fire or fighting type move, that can hit it hard enough to prevent it from getting both Shed Tail and Sitrus Berry off, which can make you start off completely on the wrong foot and lead to your team collapsing quickly if your only way to stop the sub is Booster Iron Valiant. It forces you to play extremely reactively and predictably in a meta where doing so is effectively an instant loss.

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

Regarding
Not to strawman, but I've gotten the impression from several people that their feelings regarding Volcarona are influenced by the fact that Volc, and the dynamic that it introduces, aren't anything new. However, I don't feel like the perspective of "It's always been that way with Volc being the 'matchup moth' so it's fine" is solid reasoning. As primarily a (retired) SM player, I can attest to the fact that Volc is a controversial part of the tier (I actually wrote a post discussing Volc in SM earlier today and other users in that thread also have talked about Volc), and I'm glad that yNot Mence linked to BKC's video (which I think that everyone should watch, if they haven't yet) where he talks about Volc in prior generations, particularly BW. What I'm trying to get at is that many players have viewed Volc as a problem in essentially every generation that it's been in, so the fact that people have become accustomed to its presence in previous tiers shouldn't be used as any indication that it is a healthy part of the metagame. I think that Volc in SV is clearly at its "most unhealthy" point, due to the limited dex, Terastallization, and Heavy-Duty Boots, but Volc's presence in SV shouldn't be viewed in relation to its inclusion in previous gens. BKC talks about this better in his video than I can but the discussion surrounding Volc is really the embodiment of how you personally view that tiering should be approached. BKC does a great job of articulating how Volc tends to warp the way that teams are built, and likely more impactfully, how games are played when it's present. Volc introduces a dynamic where if it gets the matchup it wants (and especially with Tera, there is enough variety to Volc's sets that it can pick and choose its counters) or gets one opportunity, sometimes through hax, as seen in this SM SPL game from a few weeks ago, it can just win on the spot, while Volc doesn't offer too much defensive utility as compensation. This is extremely reminiscent of the primary reason why Espathra was banned and BKC said that this "Volc dynamic" feels somewhat like what Baton Pass has done to previous tiers. Obviously I don't think that Volc is as egregious as Espathra or Baton Pass (although Tera and Boots does make it feel kind of close to Espathra to me), but the point is that Volc has always been accompanied by a similar unhealthy dynamic. It's less about if Volc is inherently too "overpowered" (although to me, it does feel kind of close to meeting that threshold alone in SV) and more so about the impact that it has on how you need to prepare for and play against it, which again, is obviously exacerbated by Heavy-Duty Boots and Terastallization. So to tie it back to what I said in the beginning, I feel like everyone should view Volc's place in SV in isolation, almost as if this was the first generation that it appeared in, instead of taking into consideration its historical precedent for remaining in tiers. BKC alludes to this in his video but attitudes towards tiering were extremely different back in the BW days (I wasn't a part of Smogon back then but I've heard many more veteran members lament this) and I feel like it's good to be scrupulous about modern tiering approaches without relying too heavily on how things were done in the past. Obviously it's fine if a mon is deemed to either be banworthy or not across multiple generations for the same reason, but just relying on the historical lack of action against a mon feels fallacious to me.

 

[SpritePony]

I don't disagree that shed tail is really unfun to fight against and can lead to very cheese and unstoppable wins/losses, but could you tell me what orthworm can switch in on freely? In my time playing with it, i could really only manage to get it in safely on mostly mons such as Clodsire, Glimmora, Grimmsnarl, Iron Treads and Toxapex, by virture of them either being too passive with their usual kits or not being able to hit orthworm for any significant enough damage to even remotely deny the shed tail. Other physical mons such as RM and Kingambit, despite also not being able to deny the pass, can simply set up on it and follow up with a tera to safely survive most recievers and still sweep a good chunk of the team.

So, genuinely, i'd like to know of these "numerous" switch-ins. Unironically, i'm really curious to know what. Not meaning to come off as an asshole here


Also, if i may add, Tera-ing Orthworm just to get a succesful pass is not a great play most of the time, since a lot of it's setup sweeper recievers NEED their own Tera to accomplish meaningful game progress a lot of the time (like volcarona and iron moth requiring tera ground to get past skeledirge, formerly espathra requiring tera fighting/fire to get past any dark type, etc).


I say this as someone who has experience playing with Orthworm, and i'd like to hear what you have to say about those 2 points


Spore lol
If you were already spored on something else, good chance Breloom instead already has either used an SD or subbed, which both will prove problematic for whatever sweeper you're passing to, considering not only will it's priority mach punches do a ton, but bullet seed will do even more and multi-hits so it will guaranteedly break any sub, even before a +2. Volcarona included:

252 Atk Technician Breloom Bulldoze vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Volcarona: 120-142 (32.1 - 38%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO

1. As you mentioned, Clodsire, Glimmora, Grim is 50/50 because if it packs Taunt then you can't do much about it, Quagsire, Gastrodon, Tusk (if you then commit the ghost Tera), Scizor (Especially CB Scizors), non-Heat Rotoms, Corviknights without Taunt, Hatterene (on a turn they aren't Mystical Firing you), Toxapex, Toedscool/Toedscruel, Tsareena lacking HJK... There's a lot of raw switches you can do with this thing.

2. Yeah, Spore also works from Breloom, but not from Amoonguss or Bonnet.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

looking back on it, yeah, volc has always been kind of absurd and the only thing consistently holding it back is that heatran's been an ou staple for even longer. with heatran out of the game right now (and, since tera ground exists, potentially even with heatran), and with the pink blobs no longer being used, volc might actually be a problem. i still believe it can be played around with its stronger checks, as i said before, but it frequently requires insane top-level plays to do so. i'm still not fully convinced on volc, but i do at least support a suspect (i think even mons i don't see as broken should be suspected because my opinions can sometimes be wrong), especially if we're not given any info on home support soon.

as for garg, again, still not convinced it's broken. people argue that it "forces" cloak onto teams but i still think cloak is a worthwhile item independently of garg, particularly on gholdengo—it effectively makes gholdengo almost completely immune to stat drops and status in combination with good as gold, so i'd keep running it even in a gargless meta because i fucking hate hax. again, i do think garg is worth suspecting, but i've never considered it a problem. (i'm definitely biased on this because garg is my favorite design of the gen and has absolutely carried me in plenty of battles both in-game and competitively)

i'm glad to see people finally coming to the conclusion that shed tail is broken independently of cyclizar. i personally never really thought the trade-off of 50% hp even on a mon without recovery was enough—with proper positioning and a good setup sweeper, you only need to pass a sub once and the game's over. orthworm into dragonite is particularly nasty because multiscale makes the sub a pain in the ass to break and then you still have to deal with the actual multiscale afterwards. it's subpassing in a single turn and it's unnatural and wrong, get it out.

 

[Moyashi]

remember just because orthworm isn't broken doesn't mean that shed tail isn't at its core, getting a free turn or two to set up without having to slot sub is pretty broken. And stuff like dragonite, espathra, and Volc have proven that time and time again that shed tail isn't necessarily healthy at all. (Dragonite and volc aren't broken, but constantly teeter to being broken due to shed tail enabling them to set up for free.) Sometimes one negative priority shed tail is really all you need to 6-0 a team or give yourself a big advantage, and that isn't fun to play against.

Shed Tail isn't broken and this is honestly a very reductionist way of looking at it. Espathra which could very easily get out of control because of a shortlist of checks which was compounded by substitute (which it could use itself btw). Using Orthworm for mons that aren't Espathra takes more care and thought, as the worm gets only one chance on average and requires careful positioning. A well built team has the tools to deny the pass. Using Orthworm is a more skilled expression due to the very committal nature of the tactic, as opposed to Cyclizar which was very riskless. And quite frankly it rarely is as simple as pass shed tail to sweeper to win, because the mons it supports now (maybe Volcarona but that's a different problem) are not so game endingly strong if they get one free turn to set up.

It's a Substitute and Baton Pass in one. Given that Baton Pass is already banned, and this move achieves the same thing in a single turn, Shed Tail is an issue. I have no problems leading something or VoltTurning into something that claps Orthworm, but stopping the Shed Tail is 50/50 right now. Using my Skeledirge as an example:
252+ SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Ghost Orthworm: 132-156 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Even on a max roll, you don't stop Shed Tail if they are willing to commit their Tera. If not, then the Shed Tail is stopped then and there (if they don't outpace you.)
You get nearly a free Shed Tail vs Tusk, as they cannot EQ/Rush you due to Earth Eater, and if they go for the obvious Close Combat, you just click Tera.

First, can the comparisons to baton pass stop please? It was mentioned somewhere earlier rin the thread but BP was never banned because of its ability to pass substitutes. That was never a main aspect or even one all. Regarding your skeledirge example, that's pretty extreme specifics as if both requires a spdef Orthworm (not the most common set) and it to use tera, which is a big BIG cost to so just go try and pass a sub. Most recipients of shed want to use to tera as the combo is a big part of what makes it so strong in theory. So again, it's a very uncommon scenario.

Regarding worm switch ins, it doesn't freely come in on a whole lot. It require specific mons to switch in on or smart double switching to bring in, or slow pivoting. And even then, the sub pass is far from guaranteed to be useful.

as for garg, again, still not convinced it's broken. people argue that it "forces" cloak onto teams but i still think cloak is a worthwhile item independently of garg, particularly on gholdengo—it effectively makes gholdengo almost completely immune to stat drops and status in combination with good as gold, so i'd keep running it even in a gargless meta because i fucking hate hax

This is also something I don't really get. There are very few viable cloak users that don't gimp themselves badly by running it, and Gholdengo is one of the very few. And, Garganacl has responded to this by running tera water curse which completely destroys cloak Dhengo. Beyond that, I hear people argue that the impact of cloak is underappreciated because its an invisible effect you never actually see go off, but that goes both ways and I feel pro cloak players overstate the impact of cloak, as you can't really say it does things due to the invisible nature. You can argue "I wasn't haxed" but you can't actually say cloak was necessary, because you could also have ended up never getting haxed in a normal game without cloak. All due to RNG. you can also mitigate such things with risk management and good play a decent amount of the time, and run an item that isn't cloak.

Even Gholdengo would not run the item nearly as much if Garganacl wasn't here. Now it would still run it on occasion, but only if the player wanted to for dealing with stuff like Hatterene nuzzles and mystical fires. But I want to ask pro cloak players: ahat mons would still viable run the item if Garganacl was banned? What realistic consistent choices would use it practically?

 

[Solar Power]

Since we're on the topic of Volcarona, I'd like to share my meme way of beating it:

Hydreigon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Head Smash(!!)

Even with a timid nature and no investment Head Smash is a guaranteed OHKO on even the bulkiest Volcarona:

0- Atk Hydreigon Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcarona: 380-448 (101.6 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It is so fun and satisfying to pull off. It does all the same things Specs Hydriegon normally does like yeeting things with Draco Meteor and 2HKO'ing a variety of bulky pokemon with Dark Pulse after a couple layers of hazards. Fire Blast OHKO's mixed Iron Valiant, Physdef Corviknight and Kingambit, and OHKO's physical/special Iron Valiant after 1 layer of spikes:

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Iron Valiant: 294-347 (101.7 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 264-311 (91.3 - 107.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 396-468 (99.2 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 400-472 (108.4 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Here's a couple low ladder replays of Head Smash yeets. Incidentally, turn 6 in both games:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1802057314-rtkfhnqj608rt8bx9fcmigr0x45ut7tpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1795773435-lo46if4s8j6soqwd86zzvpiskd1c8xtpw

and a couple replays of it using Tera Ghost to wall Dragonite:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1797144396-ycvm9lfnpej65r5y318q1sges4cf7pcpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1797295606-q0x2hvoqv8602ar7bve1hyt4b4dxo46pw

Overall a very fun pokemon to use.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

you could also have ended up never getting haxed in a normal game without cloak

god i wish i was you

 

[SpritePony]

Shed Tail isn't broken and this is honestly a very reductionist way of looking at it. Espathra which could very easily get out of control because of a shortlist of checks which was compounded by substitute (which it could use itself btw). Using Orthworm for mons that aren't Espathra takes more care and thought, as the worm gets only one chance on average and requires careful positioning. A well built team has the tools to deny the pass. Using Orthworm is a more skilled expression due to the very committal nature of the tactic, as opposed to Cyclizar which was very riskless. And quite frankly it rarely is as simple as pass shed tail to sweeper to win, because the mons it supports now (maybe Volcarona but that's a different problem) are not so game endingly strong if they get one free turn to set up.



First, can the comparisons to baton pass stop please? It was mentioned somewhere earlier rin the thread but BP was never banned because of its ability to pass substitutes. That was never a main aspect or even one all. Regarding your skeledirge example, that's pretty extreme specifics as if both requires a spdef Orthworm (not the most common set) and it to use tera, which is a big BIG cost to so just go try and pass a sub. Most recipients of shed want to use to tera as the combo is a big part of what makes it so strong in theory. So again, it's a very uncommon scenario.

Regarding worm switch ins, it doesn't freely come in on a whole lot. It require specific mons to switch in on or smart double switching to bring in, or slow pivoting. And even then, the sub pass is far from guaranteed to be useful.



This is also something I don't really get. There are very few viable cloak users that don't gimp themselves badly by running it, and Gholdengo is one of the very few. And, Garganacl has responded to this by running tera water curse which completely destroys cloak Dhengo. Beyond that, I hear people argue that the impact of cloak is underappreciated because its an invisible effect you never actually see go off, but that goes both ways and I feel pro cloak players overstate the impact of cloak, as you can't really say it does things due to the invisible nature. You can argue "I wasn't haxed" but you can't actually say cloak was necessary, because you could also have ended up never getting haxed in a normal game without cloak. All due to RNG. you can also mitigate such things with risk management and good play a decent amount of the time, and run an item that isn't cloak.

Even Gholdengo would not run the item nearly as much if Garganacl wasn't here. Now it would still run it on occasion, but only if the player wanted to for dealing with stuff like Hatterene nuzzles and mystical fires. But I want to ask pro cloak players: ahat mons would still viable run the item if Garganacl was banned? What realistic consistent choices would use it practically?

1. Found the Shed Tail stan.
2. No. The easiest way to describe Shed Tail is literally SubPass. Baton Pass wasn't banned because of Sub specifically, but Sub was still a part of the chains. Hell, even Ninjask used Sub in its SD Pass sets back in the day. SHED TAIL IS SUB PASSING WITHOUT THE STATS. Get it through your head.
3. "It doesn't come in on a whole lot" even though I listed numerous Pokemon it can EASILY switch in on, either on an immunity or a highly resisted hit. Mind you, the higher majority are Pokemon that can be abused anyway, but still plenty of COMMON Pokemon to see from UU+.
4. It may not be guaranteed to be useful, but it lends itself to hyper enabling many problematic things. Namely extremely prevalent setup sweepers. Shed Tail itself is a major reason why I picked up Dirge and Sylveon; their main STABs going through whatever they pass to (that isn't immune to it) is going to be taking hits out the gate.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Volcarona:

I have never once felt teambuilding has warped around volc. Lets not get it twisted, volc can be scary, but centralizing and meta warping? Nah that's a stretch..

I agree its more viable than ever right now, but that's due to external factors that need to go more importantly since they're proving the slippery slope effect as more and more stuff gets banned (who would've guessed ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°))

yNot Mence posted a pretty good list of viable checks to volcarona which I'll plug here:

With regards to this, I wanna discuss quickly the current checks we have in the tier for Volc:
- Sap Sipper Azu is technically a decent counter for Volcarona, but in reality it's a pretty specific set that doesn't do much otherwise, and it's not even guaranteed to KO it due to its lack of power.
- Flash Fire Ceruledge is a great mon that can offer a great match up against Volc, due to the fact that it resists both of its STABs, it resists its most common offensive Tera type (Grass), it can't be burned, it has a decent special bulk and hits it pretty hard with Bitter Blade. Definitely one of the best options here.
- Unaware Clod, and sometimes even Water Absorb Clod, almost always 1v1s Volc and has the potential to threaten it with a Toxic. It can actually lose if Volc is behind a sub though, or if it's Tera Steel.
- I just put this here as a "potential" check, in reality this shit gets absolutely destroyed by Tera Grass Volc, not suggested at all.
- Garg is a good check 9 times out of 10, since it completely walls the defensive Volc set with a Fire move as its only offesive option, and can tank enough Giga Drains from the offensive set to hit a Salt Cure, which will then proceed to kill Volc. Beware of Tera Grass though.
- Fiery Dance Iron Moth is a pretty reliable check to Volc, mainly due to the solid special bulk Iron Moth has, and the fact that you get a 50% chance to boost your SpA, therefore ignoring the Quiver Dance boosts. Specs Moth is even better and almost always wins against Volc, the other sets are pretty unreliable though. In conclusion it's a good offensive check, but there's better options out there.
- The only way Rotom-W has to check Volcarona is to Trick it a Choice Scarf, otherwise the latter just starts Quiver Dancing and you lose. Still thought it deserved to be mentioned though.
- Dirge is a great check and one of the most common answers to Volc. It has pretty low chances to lose against it due to Unaware, so it should be one of the best picks here.
- Ting Lu can always switch into Volc and whirlwind it away, disrupting its attempts to set up; besides that it doesn't really do much though, and can potentially lose to Tera Grass.
- Good old Pex, it's kind of a worse Clodsire honestly; it can potentially use Haze to get rid of Volc boosts, and it can always Toxic it and kill it, but if it comes in too late it can lose to Tera Grass Giga Drain, or if it doesn't have Haze it could lose to Tera Steel.
- Literally just a Dance battle, don't use it as a check.

Do you guys have any other suggestions? What is your favourite way to check it?

In addition to these I'd like to plug these two in as potential checks:

Dragapult: resist every common volc set, banded pult OHKO's uninvested volcarona with dragon darts, burned still 2HKO's it, and due to 2 hit breaks sub (unless infiltrator). non-WoW volc sets don't threaten it since dragon darts isn't contact for flame body.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 362-428 (116.3 - 137.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band burned Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 180-214 (57.8 - 68.8%) -- approx. 2HKO

If you wanted to get really specific you could tera fire just to deny the burn but I don't think that's necessary. Tera fire pult beats bulky volcarona for avoiding the burn

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Volcarona: 312-368 (83.6 - 98.6%) -- approx. 2HKO

Bulky Volc would need 2 quiver dances to muscle through it, offensive volc would need rocks up or a max roll after 1 quiver dance and a stronger move than fiery dance.

+2 0 SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 140-165 (44.1 - 52%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 143-168 (45.1 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Dragonite: beats non-WoW sets, resisting its stabs, resisting giga drain, immune to tera ground, and 2HKO's volc with tera normal extremespeed.

252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 210-247 (67.5 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The only concern is flame body, but even if the first hit burns you, its a guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk burned Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 105-123 (33.7 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Not in OU but rain floatzel and lycanroc are also solid revenge killers that beats all volc sets. Gyarados can somewhat check volc.

(EDIT: actually nvm tera grass volc isn't beaten by these two, oops)

Ok now given that on showdown simulation, there are: 33 pokemon currently OU tier, not counting anything BL or below, and we just listed 12/33 (not counting volc itself) of them as potential checks, I reeeeaaally doubt you don't have at least 1 of them let alone 2 in team builder. I don't think removing volc suddenly raises anyone's viability, makes anything better, or reveals which shitmons don't belong OU without volc to check. Calling it warping is a really big stretch without saying how its warping and why the mons you take to handle volc are only good because of opposing volcs existing.

It reminds me of lando-T, where theoretically it has a set to beat whatever the fuck it wants and its always good on almost every team archetype (hence why almost every gen its the most used pokemon), but due to the amount of answers available its just a splashable mon that doesn't break the game. Volc isn't even splashable, its match up fishy where when the situation is right then volc thrives otherwise it's dead weight.

When home comes out (and it won't be that far) we will get an additional volc check in heatran and likely some returning mons

Its really not worth testing right now, especially with upcoming changes, potential tera retest that I know is inevitable and we're just waiting for home as more opinions form and more shit breaks the mechanic so its less deniable. Volc is flavor of the month and being really overstated as problematic.

____

Garg I have no comment on, I hate it but I genuinely don't know if removing it would be opening pandora's box or not. Its gluing this meta right now as a check to offensive threats like volc, removing it would make team builder actually ridiculous. It should be banned on paper IMO but for the centralization eh I'm on the fence and would need a suspect ladder to confirm that its better.

____

Shed tail It depends what we're doing moving forward.. removing it does make the current sweepers healthier, but if we're banning them anyways then I don't see a point since it enables lesser sweepers to get in safely as well.

Then I have the concern of whether or not unbanning mons after shed tail leaves would be ideal. Espathra surprised me as a quick ban, but screens + shed tail + tera were the components that made it hard to deal with, without shed tail that seems like a pretty big nerf to it.

___

For me its either Shed tail > garg > volc, or garg > shedtail > volc. I'd rather see shed tail go entirely if the general survey vote says so, garg I'd like a suspect ladder to see if that meta doesn't suck, volc is a huge waste of a time and just flavor of the month.

____

I'd like to comment on how the tiering and council has been lately, I think smogon is going a good direction with transparency and sharing their thought processes and insights.. surveys are starting to feel like a bit of a trap though. Surveys don't really give context on what is or isn't broken, you could make a survey asking if leppa berry should be banned and everyone would vote yes even though we know it isn't immediately a problem. Suspect test are slow as is, but when you have to read through the forum for targets, + vote on which ones are radar, + survey to point fingers at the community asking for it when casuals bitch about the bans, + suspect ladder, the generation drags on and a meta doesn't develop stability before the next big update to it happens and we start again.

Its a lose lose for the council I feel that, do things to slowly and everyone hates how stale everything is, do them too quickly and everyone points fingers at the council acting on impulse not logic, but surveys feel pretty useless and I don't believe they've revealed what the council and playerbase didn't already know. Even the tera surveys didn't predict the outcome of the test itself, it just simply asked what options the players would be cool with and those options never went through.

 

[Beaf Cultist]

1. Found the Shed Tail stan.
2. No. The easiest way to describe Shed Tail is literally SubPass. Baton Pass wasn't banned because of Sub specifically, but Sub was still a part of the chains. Hell, even Ninjask used Sub in its SD Pass sets back in the day. SHED TAIL IS SUB PASSING WITHOUT THE STATS. Get it through your head.
3. "It doesn't come in on a whole lot" even though I listed numerous Pokemon it can EASILY switch in on, either on an immunity or a highly resisted hit. Mind you, the higher majority are Pokemon that can be abused anyway, but still plenty of COMMON Pokemon to see from UU+.
4. It may not be guaranteed to be useful, but it lends itself to hyper enabling many problematic things. Namely extremely prevalent setup sweepers. Shed Tail itself is a major reason why I picked up Dirge and Sylveon; their main STABs going through whatever they pass to (that isn't immune to it) is going to be taking hits out the gate.

nah i don’t get all the shed tail hate. the broken mons are clearly the sweepers at this point; mons like volc and dnite are problematic with or without sub, and orthworm is 100% a garbage mon for HO. shed tail HO has the clear opportunity cost of forcing you to run a terrible mon without even guaranteeing the gimmick you’re running it for, so i don’t see how you can say orth is broken without nonsense ‘well, shed tail is broken in theory so fuck you’ arguments or using the (broken on their own) sweepers as points in favor of shed tail’s brokenness.

also while i’m here might as well comment on the other two (really should’ve been 3). i hadn’t played OU in a while so i grabbed a sample team and laddered for a couple hours, and honestly my opinion on garg has cooled off a bit. offense teams don’t really care that much about garg. sure, it can be a nuisance, but any well-built offense team always has a mon that pressures it out regardless of Tera (though of course Tera can change which mon that is). bulky teams, however, still have to run hyper-specific counterplay just to guarantee beating it (ok, cloak is a usable item. yippee. now how about that opportunity cost? sure would be nice if that cloak gholdengo could dodge EQ or trick a scarf onto that ting-lu, huh? too bad you’ve got to run cloak in order to answer ONE mon). so while i think from the standpoint of an offense player garg is probably fine, the stall matchup is so dire and centralized that i think it still needs to be suspected.

volc and dnite are two sides of the same coin: setup sweepers that use tera to pick and choose their counterplay, leading to being beaten by them feeling less like getting outskilled and more like the opponent winning a coin toss. they’re really like espathra in that way, and the unfortunate thing about them when compared to espathra is that both of them have been around for years. people know what they do and so supposedly they’re manageable, even when they’re clearly not. however, i don’t think either of these mons should be suspected before home releases. not because i think they’ll get new counterplay, since tera makes said counterplay meaningless anyway, but because people are likely to be much more receptive to a Tera ban once home rolls around and stuff like funny mon regieleki and the urshifus are released. not to mention the early gen hype has died down enough that we probably won’t have to deal with questionable, long-term unhelpful tera restrictions splitting the vote.

tl;dr suspect garg, shed tail is fine stop whining, volc and dnite are symptoms of a broken gen gimmick. also suspect Tera once home releases kthx

 

[Magcargo]

I can't say too much on Volc atm, but is it really more overwhelming rn than it was last gen? Back in the IoA meta, it felt like it didn't have any checks barring Blissey and Tyranitar and various weather revenge killers. It's pool of potential answers right now seems much greater than it was back then. I also don't see what makes it more overwhelming than other strong Tera sweepers like Baxcalibur and Kingambit which can also blow past some of their checks with Tera.

 

[Moyashi]

1. Found the Shed Tail stan.

Found the non argument.

2. No. The easiest way to describe Shed Tail is literally SubPass. Baton Pass wasn't banned because of Sub specifically, but Sub was still a part of the chains. Hell, even Ninjask used Sub in its SD Pass sets back in the day. SHED TAIL IS SUB PASSING WITHOUT THE STATS. Get it through your head.

Sub has been used in baton pass antics but it was never a major problem part of the move, let alone a reason the move was banned entirely. This post goes into the topic as a whole and I encourage you to check it out. Also I would drop the condescending attitude.

. "It doesn't come in on a whole lot" even though I listed numerous Pokemon it can EASILY switch in on, either on an immunity or a highly resisted hit. Mind you, the higher majority are Pokemon that can be abused anyway, but still plenty of COMMON Pokemon to see from UU+.

You listed a bunch of ground mons (several of which are UU and uncommon for good reason), glimmora, nonheat rotom? Really? Unless spdef you can't do that (and again, not a common set), Hatterene (can't without spdef, uncommon). I'm not saying it's super hard to get in, but it's also not mindlessly easy to bring in and takes a competent player to do so and get use our of. Key word: good

4. It may not be guaranteed to be useful, but it lends itself to hyper enabling many problematic things. Namely extremely prevalent setup sweepers. Shed Tail itself is a major reason why I picked up Dirge and Sylveon; their main STABs going through whatever they pass to (that isn't immune to it) is going to be taking hits out the gate.

What mons are being hyper enabled? Like I said, with Espathra gone there aren't really any comparable examples, except Volcarona which is a wholely separate issue (doesn't even need shed tail to be broken, is broken by tera). Offensive teams can smartly pressure Orthworm to deny or limit it, while bulkier structures have the tools and options that can help deal with it. It's not like Cyclizar where it could get multiple passes off. Neutralize a worm pass once is often enough to limit it, and the interactions are a lot more nuanced and involve more skill and thought.