Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[YNM]

Spiritomb

"Spiritomb is formed by a collection of 108 spirits, some of which are ill-natured. This collection of spirits is known for its misdeeds; thus, as punishment, the spirits were trapped to its Odd Keystone by a traveler using a mysterious spell. Some Spiritomb are up to 500 years old." - Bulbapedia
"It used to have no weaknesses, it used to have a good life... then everything changed when the Fairy nation attacked." - YNM
​

BASE STAT	LEVEL 100 STAT RANGE
HP: 50​	210-304​
ATK: 92​	170-311​
DEF: 108​	198-346​
SPA: 92​	170-311​
SPD: 108​	198-346​
SPE: 35​	67-185​
BST: 485​

Notable Moves

Offensive Moves:
Dark Pulse, Foul Play, Hex, Night Shade, Phantom Force, Psychic, Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Shadow Sneak, Stored Power, Sucker Punch, Tera Blast, Icy Wind, Snarl

Utility Moves:
Calm Mind, Curse, Destiny Bond, Disable, Memento, Nasty Plot, Pain Split, Substitute, Taunt, Trick, Trick Room, Will-O-Wisp

Introduction
​

"Wait, who's this guy? Where's Morkal?" unfortunately Morkal is in my basement, and he won't be able to leave until he finishes writing his next post. Until then, enjoy the second mon to ever share the Ghost/Dark dual-type! Despite its solid bulk and typing, Spiritomb's mediocre movepool and average abilities have always restrained it from shining competitively in higher tiers. Still, with some proper support and with the right strategy Spiritomb has a viable niche in hazard-centred teams as a consistent Spin blocker, due to its ability to switch into Great Tusk and check it, potentially threatening it with a burn or a tricked item. So let's address the elephant in the tomb and see just how good this mon can be! I'm sorry I don't know how to make puns

Spiritomb Summarized Advantages
This is a "too long, didn't read" section for people who want a quick summary of Spiritomb's advantages without reading the whole kilometric post.​

• Spiritomb's typing and great bulk allows it to switch into pretty much every Spinner in the meta, disrupting their attempts to get rid of hazards.​
• Spiritomb benefits heavily from the addition of Tera, which allows it to remove its one and only type weakness, being fairy, and potentially turning the tables against otherwise problematic mons, like Iron Valiant.​
• Spiritomb is one of the few mons able to learn Pain Split in the current meta, and by far its best user thanks to a combination of low HP and solid defenses, considerably improving its longevity on the field.​
• Spiritomb's access to Will-O-Wisp turns it into an even better check for the Spinners in the tier, considering that the vast majority of them are physical attackers, and prevents physical sweepers from snowballing through the team.​
• Spiritomb's Will-O-Wisp additionally boosts its STAB Hex, which coming from a respectable 92 base SpA is able to deal quite some damage uninvested, to the point of easily 2HKOing Tusk, Quaquaval and Treads, and 3HKOing common mons like Rotom-W and Bulky Garchomp.​
• The combination of Trick and Lagging Tail can grant Spiritomb a degree of speed control, making wannabe counters like Iron Moth, Greninja and Volcarona think twice before switching into it.​
• Lagging Tail also allows Spiritomb to move before its opponent, giving it the chance to use Pain Split to recover most of its health back after an attack. Combined with Icy Wind, it further improves Spiritomb's speed control capabilities.​
• Spiritomb's shiny is one of the best in the entire game, allowing you to significantly improve your team's drip.​

Trick+Will-O-Wisp Spin Blocker

Spiritomb @ Lagging Tail
Ability: Infiltrator
Tera Type: Steel or Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Pain Split

Utility Role Breakdown​

Spiritomb's main purpose is preventing your hazards from leaving the field; after trying several sets, I've concluded that Trick+Lagging Tail is by far the one that provides the most utility, besides also being the most consistent. As I've mentioned earlier, Spiritomb is an amazing Spin Blocker that is not afraid to switch into Tusk's or Treads' STABs, or Knock Off for the matter, being able to easily tank their hits unless they're Banded and hit them back with a burn that will compromise them for the rest of the game. Additionally, if the opposing mon does not have Knock Off, Spiritomb can Trick them its Lagging Tail after switching in; this grants Spiritomb the first move the following turn, allowing it to use Pain Split and recover most of its health back:

As you can see, even after getting Knocked Off Spiritomb can still use Trick to get rid of the opposing mon's item, and it can take enough hits to ensure it gets at least one Pain Split off its enemy. Getting rid of your opponents item through Trick comes incredibly in handy while facing mons like Volcarona, which heavily rely on Heavy-Duty Boots in order to switch into hazards.

In this other clip, Trick and Will-O-Wisp come in clutch to stop Dragonite from setting up, and Glimmora gets 2HKOd by Hex after falling asleep. To get a better grasp of the defensive capabilities of Spiritomb, let's take a look at some calcs.

Great Tusk Damage Calculations

Offensive set:

252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 135-160 (44.5 - 52.8%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 112-133 (36.9 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 73-87 (24 - 28.7%) -- 98.4% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 61-72 (20.1 - 23.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Defensive set:

0 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 93-111 (30.6 - 36.6%) -- 60.6% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 61-72 (20.1 - 23.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Iron Treads Damage Calculations

Offensive set:

252 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 102-120 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Iron Treads Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 81-96 (26.7 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Iron Treads Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 66-78 (21.7 - 25.7%) -- 1.5% chance to 4HKO

Utility set:

0 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 82-97 (27 - 32%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0- SpA Iron Treads Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Spiritomb: 33-39 (10.8 - 12.8%) -- possible 8HKO

Glimmora Damage Calculations

Sash lead set:

252 SpA Glimmora Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Spiritomb: 91-108 (30 - 35.6%) -- 31.5% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Glimmora Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Spiritomb: 72-85 (23.7 - 28%) -- 92.2% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Glimmora Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Spiritomb: 121-144 (39.9 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Choice Specs set:

252 SpA Choice Specs Glimmora Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Spiritomb: 137-162 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Glimmora Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Spiritomb: 108-128 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Glimmora Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Spiritomb: 183-216 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
​

These damage levels clearly demonstrate that Spiritomb is not a fragile mon; after all, it does share its Bulk with the Rotom forms.

​

You can watch the full replays of the previous clips here:

• https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1801932459-b6qnw6tiu62a15dnpk1jhucu3j2cruipw​
• https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1801943501-753qt5922k0fym5q1s9v68bo6at92lrpw​

Trick+Icy Wind Speed Control

Spiritomb @ Lagging Tail
Ability: Infiltrator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Icy Wind
- Shadow Ball
- Pain Split

Utility Role Breakdown​

While this set fits pretty much the same role as the previous one, it also provides some extra benefits through the use of offensive moves such as Icy Wind and Shadow Ball. This slightly more Offensive variant of Spiritomb grants a better degree of speed control against its foes, and in particular allows to better check common lead Hazard setters such as Garchomp and Glimmora. But does the overall strategy of the team change? Well, it kinda does. That's because Spiritomb, besides preventing hazards from leaving the field as a Spin blocker, also acts as an offensive tuner for its teammates, which can take advantage of the Speed drops from Icy Wind to enter the field and revenge-kill the opponent's mons. These teammates can therefore run more offensively oriented natures, such as Modest (e.g. Specs Gholdengo) and Adamant (e.g. Banded Baxcalibur), without having to worry about getting potentially outsped by the enemy. In addition to this, Spiritomb's lower bulk investment isn't really relevant enough to incapacitate its defensive capabilities, and the slightly higher Special Attack allows it to more consistently threaten common Ghost types such as Gholdengo, Dragapult and Skeledirge, besides also making it able to easily 2HKO Offensive Garchomp with Icy Wind. Let's watch some other clips to get a better understanding of its utility:

(Specs Draco never kills Tomb, so it wouldn't have mattered regardless)

​

Again, Spiritomb displays an incredible longevity on the field, allowing its teammates to fully exploit the presence of hazards on the opposing side of the field, picking easy KOs against weaken enemies. As always, you can watch the full replays of the match above (and more) in the links provided below:

• https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1802065217-3hzra7600tdvanya3l5u3213942e9o2pw​
• https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1802097054-89dzu1kkg62p0yaqdk9oa05ees52doxpw​

Team Support Options
​

In order to get the most out of Spiritomb, you also need to carefully pick its teammates while teambuilding; let's take a quick look at the mons that will help Spiritomb be successfull in your games!

Hazard Support

Not only will Ting-Lu and Clodsire offer incredible utility support to your teams, both through Hazards and other Status moves like Whirlwhind and Toxic, but they are required in your teams and will be your main win condition: the whole strategy of which Spiritomb is a part of revolves around setting Hazards on the field, in order to chip your foes to the point of being easily KOd by your other mons. Ting-Lu and Clodsire are also amazing special walls, and will provide a solid defensive core to your team. You obviously don't need to run both of them at the same time, so pick whichever fits better in your team.
Disclaimer: While both Garchomp and Glimmora also provide good hazard support, they are not as bulky as the former mons mentioned, and will therefore be more susceptible to getting KOd by your opponent's mons. You can still use them just fine, but they'll probably fit better in more Offensively-oriented teams.

Defensive Support

As you all probably know, Spiritomb's only type weakness is Fairy. So what better teammates than mons that can resist this type? Both Gholdengo and Amoonguss have an incredibly good defensive typing, which coincidentally also cover most of each other's weaknesses! Spiritomb provides both a solid Dark neutrality for Gholdengo and a Psychic immunity for Amoonguss, while the two can easily pivot into any Fairy attack, mainly those coming from Iron Valiant (which they check easily). Gholdengo is also an amazing teammate for Spiritomb since it's by far the best Hazard keeper in the meta, blocking both potential Defogs and Rapid Spins; despite this, Gholdengo often loses 1v1 to Great Tusk, which can then safely remove the Hazards from your opponent's side of the field. Thankfully, as I've shown you earlier, Spiritomb has a great matchup against Tusk, providing good support for the overall strategy of the team. Amoonguss on the other hand is just a great mon all around, providing great utility with Spore+Clear Smog/Toxic, and being able to safely pivot to check your opponent's attacks, since it can Regenerate the damage by simply switching out.

Conclusion

​

This was quite the work, I have no idea how Morkal manages to do this all by himself... I'll may have to free him soon. Seriously though, huge shoutout to him for helping me out and being an amazing person! I'm happy that Spiritomb actually managed to be good in OU, my initial goal was to get to 1500 on the ladder with it but I even managed to get to the 1600s! I may use it again soon, cause it has been a fun mon to play with. And huge thanks to you guys for reading this mile-long post about some random NU mon! I hope you enjoyed this work, stay tuned for Morkal's next post!

 

[1LDK]

Heyooooooooooooo, Morkal is so good he even hacks other accounts to make more posts even when he is being tied up in a basement
Insanely good post man, now i wanna have morkal on my basement, can we trade it for a perfect Ive perfect move set shiny Salamance?

 

[Harb1ng3r]

I read njnp's post and just want to echo the sentiment that teralization is absolutely problematic for the tier long term. At the moment, and especially during the suspect, I feel we are looking at it with rose-colored glasses as it makes this tier that would be otherwise incredibly boring more interesting to watch. While from a spectating standpoint, this is the most interesting pokemon has been in a while, which is where I think the more casual playerbase forms their opinion of tera is fine from; watching youtubers, tournaments, ladder etc... However, when it comes to playing and building it has made everything an egregious headache. As seen with Finch's tera index, most ou pokemon have around 4 viable tera types which commonly have completely different forms of counterplay despite being the same mon. The most obvious example is Ground and Grass Volcarona, being completely different from each other making it hard to cover in the builder. While this is nothing new in past gens where all lele sets were functionally different there is typically some kind of blanket form of counterplay and ability to scout what you're up against. However, being able to change types on a whim completely nullifies this as the entire purpose of tera is to change your type to get past your counterplay and games can go out of control relatively fast because you didn't account for your opponent teraing on a specific turn. There's always the argument of "well just predict the tera", which is entirely possible but not actually an effective argument as a) as mentioned, most mons have several viable teras all with different counterplay so its incredibly hard to predict which exact tera your opponent is turning into (not to mention they always can be running some jank unviable type) and b) your opponent as complete control over when they tera and given that the player teralizing typically has a big advantage on the given turn, they'll probably position themselves into a spot where you predicting is less impactful anyway e.x a mon that isn't particularly threatening to whatever they tera into. It's incredibly hard to cover everything in 6 slots, even with your own tera types due to the sheer amount of options each mon has because of tera. I've found theres been many games where the opponent teralizing and you spend several turns regaining position but at that point, they've already made significant progress on your team. You can always use your tera to counter their tera, however, this can be inconsistent and I don't think I really need to explain why relying on this as a balanced argument is kind of troll. As I said tera is really fun from a spectating point of view but ends up being super annoying when playing/building and I find games tend to feel draining or unrewarding since there's so much nonsense that can happen it doesn't even feel like playing good matters all too much sometimes. While there are obviously some really well-played games where tera is kind of a nonfactor in SPL, most of the time (including spl) and in other environments, tera tends to dictate how games turn out more than playing well consistently.

Secondly, while this point will be shorter than the one above, I find this one far more important. Tera makes pokemon really broken. Not even like the kind of broken where it's top offensive / defensive presence that has several threatening sets like gen8 Tapu Lele. I mean really broken. Tera is the type of mechanic where the only reason something broken isnt being used that much is because something else broken is using it a bit better. Every time we ban some broken tera mon, the next guy is just going to take over. We banned Pao and Espathra, instantly volcarona, valiant, garg, kingambit and ghold got way more annoying because they are simply able to use it more often now / use more effective teras. Volcarona for example has started to lean toward offensive sets simply because you dont need to use it as a bad pseudo pao check. Valiant kind of just took paos spot in the tier, while literally having 80 viable sets making it a bit of a guessing game of what set it is even if a booster is revealed. Ghold and Gambit can edit themselves for mus more effectively. The list kind of goes on. It's not like these are just cases of pokemon being really good either, all these mons have very strong cases for being banworthy and are consistently obnoxious. There's an issue though, we have currently adopted the philosophy of "Just ban the brokens and deal with everything else later". If we continue to ban all mons that are broken by tera instead of just removing the common denominator we are going to end up with an incredibly bare-bones tier and a huge ban list. As I mentioned, even after these guys are dealt with, other mons just get more ridiculous as part of the domino effect and with home around the corner we are only getting even stronger mons. I'd personally prefer to keep as many options of actual good pokemon around in the metagame instead of just jumping through hoop after hoop to keep the underlying issue around just because it makes things "kind of interesting". I do not understand how banning a shit ton of pokemon that CAN be fine makes any logical sense to anybody and while removing tera will be sad as its hype to see some of the broken shit that can come out of it, in the long term banning it is far healthier.


To end the post I just want to say, I agree with the idea that banning tera right now is probably a bad call as due to the lack of mons this tier would be incredibly worse. But, as we approach home and the honeymoon phase wears off I hope people come to realize that our current approach with tera may seem good enough in the short term but is really not sustainable for the long-term health and competitiveness of the tier.

I heavily agree with everything in this post and couldn't have said it better myself (I've been thinking about that last point as well with tera being the common denominator among every single quickban, suspect, and radar pokemon since the third wave of bans), except for the notion that tera makes the game more interesting from a spectator perspective. I have a ton of respect for all of the players in SPL, and it's really not their fault because the mechanic generates these scenarios, but as you mentioned, there have been some ugly sloppy games decided almost entirely by one good tera turn or a big misplay/overpredict brought on by the fear of an opponent popping their tera. The mechanic is, even at the highest level among the best players on the site, a way of instantly resetting positioning and forcing approximate 50/50's relatively early in games, that really doesn't make for exciting or healthy matches.

But at the end of the day, whether the mechanic makes games marginally more interesting for a hypothetical spectator shouldn't matter. Creativity in building is awesome, but not at the expense of being able to reasonably respond to the metagame as a whole in six slots, and certainly not at the expense of rewarding strong positioning and execution of a gameplan in battle. Tera narrowly avoided a ban with some arguments that weren't fully about the competitiveness of the mechanic pushing the no-ban camp to the threshold it needed to avoid tiering action. I just want to echo the sentiments I've seen here agitating for another round of tiering action on the mechanic once Home drops.

 

[zyzzyva]

Useful correction to the above post: Tera narrowly avoided the Tera Preview restriction being implemented last time around--a Full Ban was never even close to coming to fruition. Perhaps time and the additions to the meta from Home will poison the player base's views on Tera to the extent that a ban becomes the preferred option, but it would be a pretty drastic shift since support for a ban was so low last time.

For the problems that NJNP and Baloor mentioned--namely, that Tera makes accounting for all threats in the team builder impossible--I don't think Tera Preview would be that helpful, but it would at least eliminate some in-game surprise factor and allow better long-term planning starting from Turn 1 (e.g. if their Gambit is Tera Fire you can beat it by keeping your Tusk healthy, if it's Tera Flying you need other outs). I'd be surprised if Tera remains unrestricted throughout Gen 9's life span but you never know.

 

[Vall]

I've been thinking about that last point as well with tera being the common denominator among every single quickban, suspect, and radar pokemon since the third wave of bans)

I think people are massively overrating tera's involvement in bans. The suspect post says tera has a role is similar to saying how choice band/Specs has a role in making the pokemon broken. It's not what makes it broken necessarily, it's one component of it's power. Saying "since the third wave of quickbans" is cherry picking the data, as it's ignoring many more that were broken without tera.

The primary cause of all bans so far:

Houndstone: Last Respects
Flutter Mane: Too Powerful regardless of tera

Iron Bundle: Too powerful regardless of tera
Palafin: Too powerful regardless of tera

Cyclizar: Shed tail + Regen
Chi-Yu: Too Powerful regardless of tera
Annihilape: Tera + Rage Fist

Chien-Pao: Too powerful regardless of tera
Espathra: Tera + Stored Power + Speed Boost

Of the 9 pokemon banned so far, 2 (Espathra & Annihlape) were banned primarily on Tera and only due to another incredibly powerful mechanic. Garganacl too, but there's doubt whether Garg's truly too much for the meta.

That said, now that we've had more time to play with Tera, I think that Team Preview would be beneficial, but the only action really needed in regards to tera

 

[Rootb]

I think people are massively overrating tera's involvement in bans. The suspect post says tera has a role is similar to saying how choice band/Specs has a role in making the pokemon broken. It's not what makes it broken necessarily, it's one component of it's power. Saying "since the third wave of quickbans" is cherry picking the data, as it's ignoring many more that were broken without tera.

The primary cause of all bans so far:

Houndstone: Last Respects
Flutter Mane: Too Powerful regardless of tera

Iron Bundle: Too powerful regardless of tera
Palafin: Too powerful regardless of tera

Cyclizar: Shed tail + Regen
Chi-Yu: Too Powerful regardless of tera
Annihilape: Tera + Rage Fist

Chien-Pao: Too powerful regardless of tera
Espathra: Tera + Stored Power + Speed Boost

Of the 9 pokemon banned so far, 2 (Espathra & Annihlape) were banned primarily on Tera and only due to another incredibly powerful mechanic. Garganacl too, but there's doubt whether Garg's truly too much for the meta.

That said, now that we've had more time to play with Tera, I think that Team Preview would be beneficial, but the only action really needed in regards to tera

Espathra is definitely too powerful regardless of tera, as well. People can argue back and forth about whether tera sent it over the edge, but it's a miserable matchup-fishing pokemon that should never have been released. Hell, if you send either Annihilape or Chien-Pao back in time a decade or so to almost any other point in history, the odds are way better than not that they wouldn't survive a tiering action.

Gen 9 is a silly place.

 

[Moyashi]

Espathra is definitely too powerful regardless of tera, as well. People can argue back and forth about whether tera sent it over the edge, but it's a miserable matchup-fishing pokemon that should never have been released.

Not at all. Espathra was broken by virtue of its ability to circumvent even would be consistent counterplay by terastilizing into a type that allowed it to. Tera fire popping up near the end of its time in OU was a sign of that. Its emblematic of what makes tera controversial, allowing mons to cheat bad match ups. Dark types like Kingambit would be a fantastic stop to Espathra were the bird not able to tera fighting or fire and flip the script. It's what pushed the bird's match up fishing to the obscene. Without it, you'd actually be able to slot in play against it and feel secure. It'd be no worse than Volcarona in previous generations.

Hell, if you send either Annihilape or Chien-Pao back in time a decade or so to almost any other point in history, the odds are way better than not that they wouldn't survive a tiering action.

I'm not sure what your point is. Yes sending power crept threats back in time to generations with a lower power level they'd get banned in a heartbeat. But Annihilape is gen 9, and would be a much more tolerable mon if it couldn't escape its original type weaknesses to keep boosting while gaining rage fist power. Chien-Pao is contentious, but it still exemplifies why gaining more power (tera dark) for no cost is unbalanced.

I think people are massively overrating tera's involvement in bans. The suspect post says tera has a role is similar to saying how choice band/Specs has a role in making the pokemon broken. It's not what makes it broken necessarily, it's one component of it's power. Saying "since the third wave of quickbans" is cherry picking the data, as it's ignoring many more that were broken without tera.

The primary cause of all bans so far:

Houndstone: Last Respects
Flutter Mane: Too Powerful regardless of tera

Iron Bundle: Too powerful regardless of tera
Palafin: Too powerful regardless of tera

Cyclizar: Shed tail + Regen
Chi-Yu: Too Powerful regardless of tera
Annihilape: Tera + Rage Fist

Chien-Pao: Too powerful regardless of tera
Espathra: Tera + Stored Power + Speed Boost

Of the 9 pokemon banned so far, 2 (Espathra & Annihlape) were banned primarily on Tera and only due to another incredibly powerful mechanic. Garganacl too, but there's doubt whether Garg's truly too much for the meta.

That said, now that we've had more time to play with Tera, I think that Team Preview would be beneficial, but the only action really needed in regards to tera

On the contrary, I feel it should be considered the impact tera has on these mons even if it isn't the primary factor breaking them. Houndstone could tera to beat its few checks in normal types, Flutter Mane could tera to boost its stabs or to dodge revenge killing from priority, Iron Bundle could boost power and escape its rocks weakness and dodge Breloom's mach punch. Palafin could tera fighting or another type to improve match ups and further limit counterplay. Stuff like Chi-Yu and Chien-Pao show why being able to double down on one type for stab and boost power is silly, as it further limits counterplay as well. While Ape and Espathra show why being able to tera into a different type and change counterplay in the middle of battle is unbalanced and makes counterplay awkward and limited.

Honestly it's an aspect of tera I hope sees discussion and is analyzed, as it's not as simple as tera being something that sends mons over the edge. Its the way it fundamentally impacts building, making it difficult. And while I don't know if it's too much in this moment, I do think we should continue watching it carefully.

 

[Vall]

On the contrary, I feel it should be considered the impact tera has on these mons even if it isn't the primary factor breaking them. Houndstone could tera to beat its few checks in normal types, Flutter Mane could tera to boost its stabs or to dodge revenge killing from priority, Iron Bundle could boost power and escape its rocks weakness and dodge Breloom's mach punch. Palafin could tera fighting or another type to improve match ups and further limit counterplay. Stuff like Chi-Yu and Chien-Pao show why being able to double down on one type for stab and boost power is silly, as it further limits counterplay as well. While Ape and Espathra show why being able to tera into a different type and change counterplay in the middle of battle is unbalanced and makes counterplay awkward and limited.

Considered? Sure. I don't think anyone would argue that tera didn't make any of the banned mons stronger to varying extents.

However, I would also like to say that Tera provided some counterplay to those mons in addition to making them more broken. Tera normal could buy a turn to get key damage on flutter mane, along with houndstone. Tera clodsire with water absorb let it more reliably check the waters. Chi-Yu & Chien-pao just got more ridiculous with tera, I agree.

But more importantly, the post I was replying to explicitly stated that tera was the common factor- implying that tera was the cause of the bans, which is far from accurate.

 

[Morkal]

Spiritomb

View attachment 493432
"Spiritomb is formed by a collection of 108 spirits, some of which are ill-natured. This collection of spirits is known for its misdeeds; thus, as punishment, the spirits were trapped to its Odd Keystone by a traveler using a mysterious spell. Some Spiritomb are up to 500 years old." - Bulbapedia
"It used to have no weaknesses, it used to have a good life... then everything changed when the Fairy nation attacked." - YNM
​

BASE STAT	LEVEL 100 STAT RANGE
HP: 50​	210-304​
ATK: 92​	170-311​
DEF: 108​	198-346​
SPA: 92​	170-311​
SPD: 108​	198-346​
SPE: 35​	67-185​
BST: 485​

Notable Moves

Offensive Moves:
Dark Pulse, Foul Play, Hex, Night Shade, Phantom Force, Psychic, Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Shadow Sneak, Stored Power, Sucker Punch, Tera Blast, Icy Wind, Snarl

Utility Moves:
Calm Mind, Curse, Destiny Bond, Disable, Memento, Nasty Plot, Pain Split, Substitute, Taunt, Trick, Trick Room, Will-O-Wisp

Introduction
​

"Wait, who's this guy? Where's Morkal?" unfortunately Morkal is in my basement, and he won't be able to leave until he finishes writing his next post. Until then, enjoy the second mon to ever share the Ghost/Dark dual-type! Despite its solid bulk and typing, Spiritomb's mediocre movepool and average abilities have always restrained it from shining competitively in higher tiers. Still, with some proper support and with the right strategy Spiritomb has a viable niche in hazard-centred teams as a consistent Spin blocker, due to its ability to switch into Great Tusk and check it, potentially threatening it with a burn or a tricked item. So let's address the elephant in the tomb and see just how good this mon can be! I'm sorry I don't know how to make puns

Spiritomb Summarized Advantages
This is a "too long, didn't read" section for people who want a quick summary of Spiritomb's advantages without reading the whole kilometric post.​

• Spiritomb's typing and great bulk allows it to switch into pretty much every Spinner in the meta, disrupting their attempts to get rid of hazards.​
• Spiritomb benefits heavily from the addition of Tera, which allows it to remove its one and only type weakness, being fairy, and potentially turning the tables against otherwise problematic mons, like Iron Valiant.​
• Spiritomb is one of the few mons able to learn Pain Split in the current meta, and by far its best user thanks to a combination of low HP and solid defenses, considerably improving its longevity on the field.​
• Spiritomb's access to Will-O-Wisp turns it into an even better check for the Spinners in the tier, considering that the vast majority of them are physical attackers, and prevents physical sweepers from snowballing through the team.​
• Spiritomb's Will-O-Wisp additionally boosts its STAB Hex, which coming from a respectable 92 base SpA is able to deal quite some damage uninvested, to the point of easily 2HKOing Tusk, Quaquaval and Treads, and 3HKOing common mons like Rotom-W and Bulky Garchomp.​
• The combination of Trick and Lagging Tail can grant Spiritomb a degree of speed control, making wannabe counters like Iron Moth, Greninja and Volcarona think twice before switching into it.​
• Lagging Tail also allows Spiritomb to move before its opponent, giving it the chance to use Pain Split to recover most of its health back after an attack. Combined with Icy Wind, it further improves Spiritomb's speed control capabilities.​
• Spiritomb's shiny is one of the best in the entire game, allowing you to significantly improve your team's drip.​

Trick+Will-O-Wisp Spin Blocker


View attachment 493433
Spiritomb @ Lagging Tail
Ability: Infiltrator
Tera Type: Steel or Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Pain Split

Utility Role Breakdown​

Spiritomb's main purpose is preventing your hazards from leaving the field; after trying several sets, I've concluded that Trick+Lagging Tail is by far the one that provides the most utility, besides also being the most consistent. As I've mentioned earlier, Spiritomb is an amazing Spin Blocker that is not afraid to switch into Tusk's or Treads' STABs, or Knock Off for the matter, being able to easily tank their hits unless they're Banded and hit them back with a burn that will compromise them for the rest of the game. Additionally, if the opposing mon does not have Knock Off, Spiritomb can Trick them its Lagging Tail after switching in; this grants Spiritomb the first move the following turn, allowing it to use Pain Split and recover most of its health back:

View attachment 493437​

As you can see, even after getting Knocked Off Spiritomb can still use Trick to get rid of the opposing mon's item, and it can take enough hits to ensure it gets at least one Pain Split off its enemy. Getting rid of your opponents item through Trick comes incredibly in handy while facing mons like Volcarona, which heavily rely on Heavy-Duty Boots in order to switch into hazards.

View attachment 493436​

In this other clip, Trick and Will-O-Wisp come in clutch to stop Dragonite from setting up, and Glimmora gets 2HKOd by Hex after falling asleep. To get a better grasp of the defensive capabilities of Spiritomb, let's take a look at some calcs.

Great Tusk Damage Calculations

Offensive set:

252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 135-160 (44.5 - 52.8%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 112-133 (36.9 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 73-87 (24 - 28.7%) -- 98.4% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 61-72 (20.1 - 23.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Defensive set:

0 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 93-111 (30.6 - 36.6%) -- 60.6% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 61-72 (20.1 - 23.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Iron Treads Damage Calculations

Offensive set:

252 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 102-120 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Iron Treads Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 81-96 (26.7 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Iron Treads Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 66-78 (21.7 - 25.7%) -- 1.5% chance to 4HKO

Utility set:

0 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 82-97 (27 - 32%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0- SpA Iron Treads Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Spiritomb: 33-39 (10.8 - 12.8%) -- possible 8HKO

Glimmora Damage Calculations

Sash lead set:

252 SpA Glimmora Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Spiritomb: 91-108 (30 - 35.6%) -- 31.5% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Glimmora Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Spiritomb: 72-85 (23.7 - 28%) -- 92.2% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Glimmora Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Spiritomb: 121-144 (39.9 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Choice Specs set:

252 SpA Choice Specs Glimmora Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Spiritomb: 137-162 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Glimmora Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Spiritomb: 108-128 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Glimmora Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Spiritomb: 183-216 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
​

These damage levels clearly demonstrate that Spiritomb is not a fragile mon; after all, it does share its Bulk with the Rotom forms.

​

You can watch the full replays of the previous clips here:

• https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1801932459-b6qnw6tiu62a15dnpk1jhucu3j2cruipw​
• https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1801943501-753qt5922k0fym5q1s9v68bo6at92lrpw​

Trick+Icy Wind Speed Control


View attachment 493438
Spiritomb @ Lagging Tail
Ability: Infiltrator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Icy Wind
- Shadow Ball
- Pain Split

Utility Role Breakdown​

While this set fits pretty much the same role as the previous one, it also provides some extra benefits through the use of offensive moves such as Icy Wind and Shadow Ball. This slightly more Offensive variant of Spiritomb grants a better degree of speed control against its foes, and in particular allows to better check common lead Hazard setters such as Garchomp and Glimmora. But does the overall strategy of the team change? Well, it kinda does. That's because Spiritomb, besides preventing hazards from leaving the field as a Spin blocker, also acts as an offensive tuner for its teammates, which can take advantage of the Speed drops from Icy Wind to enter the field and revenge-kill the opponent's mons. These teammates can therefore run more offensively oriented natures, such as Modest (e.g. Specs Gholdengo) and Adamant (e.g. Banded Baxcalibur), without having to worry about getting potentially outsped by the enemy. In addition to this, Spiritomb's lower bulk investment isn't really relevant enough to incapacitate its defensive capabilities, and the slightly higher Special Attack allows it to more consistently threaten common Ghost types such as Gholdengo, Dragapult and Skeledirge, besides also making it able to easily 2HKO Offensive Garchomp with Icy Wind. Let's watch some other clips to get a better understanding of its utility:

View attachment 493439
(Specs Draco never kills Tomb, so it wouldn't have mattered regardless)

View attachment 493440
View attachment 493441
​

Again, Spiritomb displays an incredible longevity on the field, allowing its teammates to fully exploit the presence of hazards on the opposing side of the field, picking easy KOs against weaken enemies. As always, you can watch the full replays of the match above (and more) in the links provided below:

• https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1802065217-3hzra7600tdvanya3l5u3213942e9o2pw​
• https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1802097054-89dzu1kkg62p0yaqdk9oa05ees52doxpw​

Team Support Options
​

In order to get the most out of Spiritomb, you also need to carefully pick its teammates while teambuilding; let's take a quick look at the mons that will help Spiritomb be successfull in your games!

Hazard Support

View attachment 493442View attachment 493443​

Not only will Ting-Lu and Clodsire offer incredible utility support to your teams, both through Hazards and other Status moves like Whirlwhind and Toxic, but they are required in your teams and will be your main win condition: the whole strategy of which Spiritomb is a part of revolves around setting Hazards on the field, in order to chip your foes to the point of being easily KOd by your other mons. Ting-Lu and Clodsire are also amazing special walls, and will provide a solid defensive core to your team. You obviously don't need to run both of them at the same time, so pick whichever fits better in your team.
Disclaimer: While both Garchomp and Glimmora also provide good hazard support, they are not as bulky as the former mons mentioned, and will therefore be more susceptible to getting KOd by your opponent's mons. You can still use them just fine, but they'll probably fit better in more Offensively-oriented teams.

Defensive Support

View attachment 493451View attachment 493445​

As you all probably know, Spiritomb's only type weakness is Fairy. So what better teammates than mons that can resist this type? Both Gholdengo and Amoonguss have an incredibly good defensive typing, which coincidentally also cover most of each other's weaknesses! Spiritomb provides both a solid Dark neutrality for Gholdengo and a Psychic immunity for Amoonguss, while the two can easily pivot into any Fairy attack, mainly those coming from Iron Valiant (which they check easily). Gholdengo is also an amazing teammate for Spiritomb since it's by far the best Hazard keeper in the meta, blocking both potential Defogs and Rapid Spins; despite this, Gholdengo often loses 1v1 to Great Tusk, which can then safely remove the Hazards from your opponent's side of the field. Thankfully, as I've shown you earlier, Spiritomb has a great matchup against Tusk, providing good support for the overall strategy of the team. Amoonguss on the other hand is just a great mon all around, providing great utility with Spore+Clear Smog/Toxic, and being able to safely pivot to check your opponent's attacks, since it can Regenerate the damage by simply switching out.

Conclusion
View attachment 493446
​

This was quite the work, I have no idea how Morkal manages to do this all by himself... I'll may have to free him soon. Seriously though, huge shoutout to him for helping me out and being an amazing person! I'm happy that Spiritomb actually managed to be good in OU, my initial goal was to get to 1500 on the ladder with it but I even managed to get to the 1600s! I may use it again soon, cause it has been a fun mon to play with. And huge thanks to you guys for reading this mile-long post about some random NU mon! I hope you enjoyed this work, stay tuned for Morkal's next post!

Wow, it took me a while to get out of yNot Mence 's basement; he had time to make such an awesome post about Spiritomb! This is really cool, and after all the testing, I definitely agree that Spiritomb's niche is pretty great in the current OU meta and that its penchant for compressing multiple ways to handle threats into a single slot + speed control, and its longevity is notable. Well done!

A question for everyone in this thread - what Pokemon have you been using to handle different variants of Gholdengo such as Scarf or Air Balloon?

 

[YNM]

On the contrary, I feel it should be considered the impact tera has on these mons even if it isn't the primary factor breaking them. Houndstone could tera to beat its few checks in normal types, Flutter Mane could tera to boost its stabs or to dodge revenge killing from priority, Iron Bundle could boost power and escape its rocks weakness and dodge Breloom's mach punch. Palafin could tera fighting or another type to improve match ups and further limit counterplay. Stuff like Chi-Yu and Chien-Pao show why being able to double down on one type for stab and boost power is silly, as it further limits counterplay as well. While Ape and Espathra show why being able to tera into a different type and change counterplay in the middle of battle is unbalanced and makes counterplay awkward and limited.

While everything you said is true, since they're just facts, most of the mons you mentioned are broken regardless of the presence of Tera in the metagame, at least in my opinion. Yes, Houndstone could defeat its few checks by using its Tera, but having a 300 BP spammable STAB move was broken regardless, no matter how you see it. A metagame where you specifically need to run at least one Normal type mon in your team to avoid getting swept by your opponent isn't balanced, and gives tremendous Vish vibes. Yes, Flutter Mane was nearly unwallable when it Tera boosted its STABs, but even without doing so it was still a mon with a 135 base stat on its Special side and Speed; add to this the fact that it also had 2 incredible offensive STAB typings allowing it to completely dominate the meta and centralise it upon itself (for the 3 days it was legal, that is). The same thing applies to Palafin, it had legendary level base stats packing a tremendous 160 base Atk, while having a solid bulk and a good Speed, and if that wasn't enough it also had one of the strongest priority moves ever. While it using Tera did limit counterplay, that thing was actually Dracovish 2.0 after a Bulk Up, to the point of people using Water Absorb Clodsire and even Vaporen just to check it, so Tera was not the problem there. While maybe you could argue that Chien-Pao was broken because of Tera Dark (I personally would still have voted ban without it, since a 177 base Atk with 135 Speed is just crazy to me), Chi-Yu was unarguably broken regardless of Tera; it Terastallizing into its STABs was just the cherry on top that made Chansey look like a fool.
Iron Bundle, Ape and Espathra on the other hand are the strongest arguments here for Tera being the premier cause for the bans of these mons, but then again I'd argue that Rage Fist was a totally uncompetitive and skilless move that deserved to get banned from the start, so you'd also get mixed feelings here.
Overall I would have preferred having Tera on team preview (which is what I voted for on the suspect), but I'm generally content with the current state of the metagame and don't believe Tera to be broken. Still, I'm 100% down for suspecting Tera again if other people feel like it, after the release of Home or the DLCs.

 

[Captain Marshadow]

Iron Bundle, Ape and Espathra on the other hand are the strongest arguments here for Tera being the premier cause for the bans of these mons, but then again I'd argue that Rage Fist was a totally uncompetitive and skilless move that deserved to get banned from the start, so you'd also get mixed feelings here.

I'd argue even Bundle is a stretch. Tera gave it even more insane breaking power/let it change to a type that shirked it's priority "weakness", sure, but 136 speed and 124 sp.attack with a literally unresisted STAB combo due to Freeze Dry and means to pivot with Flip Turn was going to break the tier in two regardless of if Tera was a thing this gen or not. Taking Tera away from it would be like giving some billionaire a hundred dollar fine for speeding.

 

[fly casanova]

tera adds an extremely creative layer to teambuilding in a way past gens' gimmicks didn't. I understand how the unpredictability can be frustrating when it swings a match you thought you had, but I think that says more about the learning curve of the mechanic rather than it being uncompetitive.

past gens' gimmicks were either a) more limited and obvious (megas), b) a one-turn phenomenon, usually a strong stab/coverage move (z-moves), or c) outright silly and banworthy by doubling your HP and giving +1 in a stat to every attack (dmax). the fact that tera lasts the whole game and fundamentally changes a mon's position in the matchup is a drastically new element, one that we're still experimenting with and getting used to. it's only been a couple of months. add that to all the crazy new moves and mons in gen9 and there's a lot to try and get a handle on.

there's so much potential for creativity when the mechanic lasts all game and has a legimate risk/reward to think about. if I tera fairy skeledirge to beat pult, then I get swept by iron moth, you're not gonna complain about tera being unhealthy - I just used it poorly. but if I hold my dirge in the back all game while moth does its thing, I can position it late game to beat moth and surprise the pult coming in to revenge. again, I don't think the pult player could complain about that, since I planned my game around that moment.

pokemon is an information game, and tera is just another piece of information to leverage against your opponent - not a "hit it and win" button or anything w/ RNG whatsoever. it's a relief when your opponent pops tera to get out of a sticky situation you put them in, while you still have your surprise factor in the back.

A question for everyone in this thread - what Pokemon have you been using to handle different variants of Gholdengo such as Scarf or Air Balloon?

hydreigon has been fun to use. you outspeed and make it rain doesn't ohko unless specs. you have a solid speed tier at 324 timid and w/ chien-pao gone there's fewer dark resists running around.

 

[Finchinator]

njnp touched on it, but Volcarona's slew of options allows it to be both dynamic and versatile. It can, more or less, pick what checks and counters it. This does not strike me as the healthiest part of the metagame. I find it to be a big strain on the builder, but also an even larger source of variance and guesswork in the battle. I worry this takes away from our competitiveness.

I will elaborate more later, but you can expect Volcarona as an addition to our tiering survey.

 

[Finchinator]

I will elaborate more later, but you can expect Volcarona as an addition to our tiering survey.

On that note, PLEASE RESPOND TO THE NEW SV OU TIERING SURVEY: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/#post-9515260

 

[Seronius]

Ok slight gripes with Finch and the OU council. First there's too many Tiering Surveys in a short time period. I understand that the council is trying to constantly improve the metagame and make it as competitive as possible but we just banned two pokemon on February 11th. I know a survey isn't a guarantee of a quickban or even a suspect its just gathering the public opinion of the metagame. My point is the meta game needs time before people can accurately adjust and form an opinion on the next tiering options.

Next gripe is I've constantly see Finch say all these banns and quickbans will be undone with the introduction of Pokemon Home which is upcoming sometime soon. I don't like this reason for making tiering options, I believe that the current metagame should be tiered disregarding the upcoming Home changes because no one really knows what Home could bring its just speculation at this point.

Lastly just wanted to say I appreciate all that Finch and the OU Council does for this metagame and this is not an attack on them. Just want my opinion to be taken in consideration.

 

[Rootb]

Ok slight gripes with Finch and the OU council. First there's too many Tiering Surveys in a short time period. I understand that the council is trying to constantly improve the metagame and make it as competitive as possible but we just banned two pokemon on February 11th. I know a survey isn't a guarantee of a quickban or even a suspect its just gathering the public opinion of the metagame. My point is the meta game needs time before people can accurately adjust and form an opinion on the next tiering options.

Next gripe is I've constantly see Finch say all these banns and quickbans will be undone with the introduction of Pokemon Home which is upcoming sometime soon. I don't like this reason for making tiering options, I believe that the current metagame should be tiered disregarding the upcoming Home changes because no one really knows what Home could bring its just speculation at this point.

Lastly just wanted to say I appreciate all that Finch and the OU Council does for this metagame and this is not an attack on them. Just want my opinion to be taken in consideration.

If people still report problems, isn't it better to fire off surveys and see if they can make improvements? Unless there's something very obviously wrong, it usually takes weeks, at minimum, for any changes to roll out. Hell, it's been nearly a month since the survey that led to Chien-Pao's ban was released!

In any case, the primary reason for this survey is Garg, and frustrations with that mon are even older than Survey 2. Now that the previous biggest problems are addressed, I'd much rather get the next one moving sooner rather than later!

 

[awyp]

On that note, PLEASE RESPOND TO THE NEW SV OU TIERING SURVEY: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/#post-9515260

Nacl 3.5 - 4 on tiering action
Volc 3 - 3.5 on tiering action
Shed Tail 5 on tiering action

 

[Baloor]

Ok slight gripes with Finch and the OU council. First there's too many Tiering Surveys in a short time period. I understand that the council is trying to constantly improve the metagame and make it as competitive as possible but we just banned two pokemon on February 11th. I know a survey isn't a guarantee of a quickban or even a suspect its just gathering the public opinion of the metagame. My point is the meta game needs time before people can accurately adjust and form an opinion on the next tiering options.

Next gripe is I've constantly see Finch say all these banns and quickbans will be undone with the introduction of Pokemon Home which is upcoming sometime soon. I don't like this reason for making tiering options, I believe that the current metagame should be tiered disregarding the upcoming Home changes because no one really knows what Home could bring its just speculation at this point.

Lastly just wanted to say I appreciate all that Finch and the OU Council does for this metagame and this is not an attack on them. Just want my opinion to be taken in consideration.

With complete honesty, these tiering surveys are happening so quickly to keep the metagame competitive for spl. It's no surprise to anybody that this tier is absolutely broken and we are just trying to remedy that as soon as possible for the highest quality games we possibly can get, and with a plethora of obnoxiously broken mons is hard to get to that point. Volcarona for example has gotten really out of hand this week in spl. There's really no harm in speed-running this process because home basically resets all the progress we made anyway so I don't see why you're upset. Tiering surveys and action are happening fast to keep SPL competitive since that's the only tour this meta will be played in but to still gage the casual communities' opinion to try and keep people happy. The reality is the community doesn't always really know what's best for the meta anyway so keeping a stream of surveys and council votes is fine for now anyway imo.

 

[Vall]

I feel like there could be a really funny quip with this typo but I can't think of anything :/

Thoughts on Tiering:
- Shed Tail: 2: While still a incredibly powerful tool, Orthworm's limited recovery makes shed tail a much more commital strategy that remains competitive.
- Volcarona: 3-4: Kinda broken RN, WOW sets are especially annoying, although I think the mon would be fine with tera preview (IK that isn't happening for a while tho).
- Garganacl: 2: Managable. Feel like it's in a comparable situation to toxapex a few gens ago, just replace poison/steel types with covert cloak users.

Bonus:
- Gholdengo: Hate seeing this mon in team preview, not broken though.

 

[Finchinator]

First there's too many Tiering Surveys in a short time period.

This metagame is shifting rapidly in its infancy. We have two huge tours going on and ladder is more active than ever.

In the past and even this generation, we have received a ton of feedback about not moving quick enough. So we are getting feedback regularly now, and it seems to be working quite well.

Surveys don't always mean action -- they just mean I have to spend a few hours going through results. It is my time and not a commitment to anything, so it is not like anything is lost for the players. In general, I do not find any opinion saying there are too many surveys to be particularly fair or justified at this juncture.

Next gripe is I've constantly see Finch say all these banns and quickbans will be undone with the introduction of Pokemon Home which is upcoming sometime soon. I don't like this reason for making tiering options, I believe that the current metagame should be tiered disregarding the upcoming Home changes because no one really knows what Home could bring its just speculation at this point.

This makes no sense to me and I think you misunderstood somewhere.

It is not true that all of the bans are going to be undone -- we will vote on them individually. I have stated that they will be looked in to so people do not use Home as a reason not to act. In addition, the fact that we are tiering independently now and focused on the current metagame is disregarding home. We are quite literally doing what you are asking. I am not sure what else you want.

I appreciate your criticism and I look forward to a process where we reflect and improve, but I do not think these are particularly fair.

 

[Avira]

Garganacl - 3 : I just don't find Garg broken even if Salt Cure is annoying. It is a top tier mon though.
Volcarona - 5 : I believe this requires immediate tiering action now that it no longer limited to using a defensive set, which was easy to wall or stop. With no Heatran, no Toxic, and Terastal being a thing, Volcarona is a lot stronger now than it was in any previous gen.
Shed Tail - 4 : While Shed Tail from Othworm is easier to outplay than from Cyclizar, counterplay to it is still easily telegraphed and punishable. The risk/reward dynamic is skewed in favour of the Shed Tail user because of how punishing a successful a Shed Tail play is.

 

[Vert]

4
if you told me garganacl was fine in the chien-pao x espathra meta, i would have rolled my eyes and moved on but right now it's insane. players have been getting very creative in bypassing covert cloak counter-play. the amount of curse water garganacl sweeps these past 2 rounds of OST is mind-blowing. block sets have been picking up and are extremely dominant. got this ladder game vs ojama yesterday to showcase how dumb this set can be. even covert cloak toxapex loses and if they tera their toxapex to beat it ask yourself this: who really won in this exchange? the standard salt cure + stealth rock set is bogus as always and i'd argue it's even better now because players need to account for all 4 sets: stealth rock, block, iron defense (still very good, trust me), and curse, along with a larger option of potential defensive tera-types post-chien-pao ban. there is a very limited pool of viable covert cloak pokemon because a lot of potential users such as corviknight and the aforementioned toxapex are shit since they tend to be your knock absorber too for 'mons like meowscarada, great tusk, and iron valiant. running substitute on shit is valid counter-play but even these can't hard switch into salt cure. you need to sack something first or bring it in after forcing a recover (which causes many 'mons to lose a lot of health). but at the end of the day i think the disconnect i have with pro-garganacl players is the move salt cure. do you not realize how insane this move is? look at ima's spl game for example. i want you to tell me with a straight face that salt cure is a fair, balanced, and honest move to have in our metagame. fuck outta here man LOL

garg is far from unbeatable as counter-play does exist because it can't run all 4 sets at once for example, but my problem is whether this thing is healthy for the meta or not. a 'mon doesn't need to have chi-yu or iron bundle level fire power to be "broken." i don't see what value garganacl brings to this metagame outside of beating dragapult (which admittedly is quite nice)

3
ya i'd probably be fine with a volcarona test after garganacl. now that annihilape and chien-pao are banned it doesn't need to run that will-o-wisp set anymore (which i always thought was ass btw). the tera-grass substitute + giga drain set is annoying as fuck. passive dogshit like clodsire and toxapex just get sub'd on then stalled out. there's also the offensive tera blast-ground set which is the volcarona set that potentially pushes it over the edge. being able to force your way past traditional checks and counters like skeledirge, dragapult, cinderace, and tera-fire kingambit feels unfair at times. the versatility on volcarona is also dummy as it has a large pool of viable tera-types from fairy to steel to psychic to bug to water. however counter-play to volcarona absolutely exists from skeledirge to ting-lu to dragonite to baxcalibur to tera-fire kingambit to cinderace to roaring moon to toxapex to clodsire to garchomp to garganacl to ceruledge to dragapult. wait but didn't i say how a lot of these 'mons can lose depending on what volcarona set your opponent has? yes, but that's just volcarona being volcarona. it has always done that in previous generations, especially in SM where it could run a million different z-moves + hidden powers. the only reason it's borderline broken right now is because SV volcarona is basically SM volcarona that doesn't need defog / rapid spin support

here are some high ladder replays of the tera-ground set being cheap as fuck: 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6

1
i changed my mind on shed tail kek

there are some powerful recipients in the tier like iron valiant and roaring moon but even with a substitute they aren't exactly unbeatable 'mons that end games on the spot. take a look at the charity bowl finals for example. the most uncompetitive aspect of this move (and orthworm's godly SPL win-rate) was how it enabled espathra but now that it's gone shed tail doesn't hit the same as an "auto-win button." orthworm itself is also pretty shit post-shed tail causing awkward situations where it's fodder for stuff like volcarona, skeledirge, hatterene, dragonite, substitute dragapult, iron moth etc...

it's a powerful move though, don't get it twisted

but broken? idk man you can still position around orthworm's 1 shed tail per game unlike cyclizar's 20. most of our remaining shed tail recipients are cock-blocked by unaware 'mons and whirlwind ting-lu which a lot of y'all are calling "necessary evils." infiltrator dragapult is also borderline busted right now

i'd even go as far to say that shed tail is healthy because it punishes garganacl users who want to spam salt cure 24/7 like pussies. if garganacl goes i will happily re-consider though. but for now banning shed tail seems soft as fuck as a tiering decision to me lol

 

[YNM]

Volcarona's slew of options allows it to be both dynamic and versatile. It can, more or less, pick what checks and counters it. This does not strike me as the healthiest part of the metagame. I find it to be a big strain on the builder, but also an even larger source of variance and guesswork in the battle.

With regards to this, I wanna discuss quickly the current checks we have in the tier for Volc:
- Sap Sipper Azu is technically a decent counter for Volcarona, but in reality it's a pretty specific set that doesn't do much otherwise, and it's not even guaranteed to KO it due to its lack of power.
- Flash Fire Ceruledge is a great mon that can offer a great match up against Volc, due to the fact that it resists both of its STABs, it resists its most common offensive Tera type (Grass), it can't be burned, it has a decent special bulk and hits it pretty hard with Bitter Blade. Definitely one of the best options here.
- Unaware Clod, and sometimes even Water Absorb Clod, almost always 1v1s Volc and has the potential to threaten it with a Toxic. It can actually lose if Volc is behind a sub though, or if it's Tera Steel.
- I just put this here as a "potential" check, in reality this shit gets absolutely destroyed by Tera Grass Volc, not suggested at all.
- Garg is a good check 9 times out of 10, since it completely walls the defensive Volc set with a Fire move as its only offesive option, and can tank enough Giga Drains from the offensive set to hit a Salt Cure, which will then proceed to kill Volc. Beware of Tera Grass though.
- Fiery Dance Iron Moth is a pretty reliable check to Volc, mainly due to the solid special bulk Iron Moth has, and the fact that you get a 50% chance to boost your SpA, therefore ignoring the Quiver Dance boosts. Specs Moth is even better and almost always wins against Volc, the other sets are pretty unreliable though. In conclusion it's a good offensive check, but there's better options out there.
- The only way Rotom-W has to check Volcarona is to Trick it a Choice Scarf, otherwise the latter just starts Quiver Dancing and you lose. Still thought it deserved to be mentioned though.
- Dirge is a great check and one of the most common answers to Volc. It has pretty low chances to lose against it due to Unaware, so it should be one of the best picks here.
- Ting Lu can always switch into Volc and whirlwind it away, disrupting its attempts to set up; besides that it doesn't really do much though, and can potentially lose to Tera Grass.
- Good old Pex, it's kind of a worse Clodsire honestly; it can potentially use Haze to get rid of Volc boosts, and it can always Toxic it and kill it, but if it comes in too late it can lose to Tera Grass Giga Drain, or if it doesn't have Haze it could lose to Tera Steel.
- Literally just a Dance battle, don't use it as a check.

Do you guys have any other suggestions? What is your favourite way to check it?

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

is the biggest abuser of Tera now. Block is incredibly stupid with Tera, as it basically makes it a lion’s den. If it has a tera type that your mon cannot break through, or lacks ways to pivot out, that’s a dead mon. And that is not considering that it has curse, which allows it to set up spam on the mon it now walls due to Tera. I have seen Tera dragon and it locks in choiced meowscarada and passive waters like pex. Block gives unlimited free turns for the Garg user to set-up rocks, boost or get a free switch assuming the mon can take a hit from the trapped mon. Tera makes Garg stupid to play against, as you have to guess the Tera, and if you read the Tera index, Garg has a ton of viable Tera types.

 

[Vall]

Bug (Slither Wing) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- First Impression
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun
- U-turn

Late to the discussion of slither wing, but I've found a lot of use for it as a physical wall not reliant on tera. This plays sort of like a rotom-skeledirge hybrid, spreading will-o-wisps while pivoting around teams with status absorbers. Tera water is largely a holdover from Chi-yu & Chien-Pao's days in the tier, but works as a useful neutral type & fire resist. This thing walls most common Garchomp, Dnite, Breloom, Garchomp, Meowscarada, Kingambit, Ting Lu & Scizor sets without tera, something mons like dirge & Rotom fail to do.

First impression allows a safe way to force a tera or take out a powerful setup sweeper with minimal commitment, with an additional benefit of people's assumption that it's banded, meaning they'll often stay in or switch to a bug resist, allowing a free wisp against a variety of physical mons in the tier. Finally, as this set isn't heavily dependant on an item, it can serve as a good knock of absorbtion for a team.

This things primary weakness is FMSS, as it really would appreciate fire/fighting stab to pressure mons after burning it, but uturn allows you to safely switch to another mon to take advantage of the burns it spreads.