Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Sulfurian]

Just wanted to mention that the devs nerfing a game element, such as moves, abilities or even entire Pokémon, is not evidence in itself that they were ever game breaking, although it is often done in response to actually broken elements, sometimes it's just strategies that the devs don't want to be prominent even if they had more than enough counterplay in the past. A good example would be Talonflame, who despite not being broken according to broad consensus, was still nerfed to the ground, another would be Toxic being cut back in gen 8, they just wanted to get rid of archaic game design even if it wasn't ostensibly causing problems to the meta.

I disagree, I think nerfs like the ones that you mentioned is the devs paying attention to certain aspects of the meta. Reducing toxic movepools, reducing event movepools by the mark guy in sword and shield so things like victini isn't limited in its viability because of event only moves, and other examples is the devs looking at certain data (its probably one person on lunch break) going "oh this seems a little too prominent" and changing it. Maybe the pp reduction is also another example of that, and who knows if regenerator won't be nerfed in gen 10 at this rate.

 

[yourpzza]

Just wanting to share my Weavile set i've been working on


[SET:]

Weavile @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 Atk / 16 SpD / 240 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Low kick / Brick break
- Ice Spinner
- Night Slash
- Poison Jab

[SET COMMENTS]
Weavile's high speed, moderate attack, and decent moves allow it to be a solid revenge killer in the OU metagame. This combination of EVs allows a tera ice Weavile to OHKO and outspeed tank chomp, scarf dragapult, 2x ddance dragonite, normal roaring moon, breloom, scarf meowscarada, clodsire, 2HKOs offensive iron treads, 2HKOs great tusk (Note: risky as the tusk may have cc), and has a small 25% chance to OHKO amoonguus (Note: not generally worth it as amoonguss can sleep your Weavile if you dont OHKO). Low kick is run to hit rock and steel type switch ins, (OHKOs kingambit most notably)(Note: Brick break can be used aswell but is much weaker to nearly every steel or rock type in OU, its only purpose is destroying screens). Night slash is run over foul play to utilize our huge physical attack stat and is able to 2HKO skeledirge ( 0 Def Skeledirge: 236-282 (57.4 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ). Finally poison jab is used to counter fairy type swtich-ins (3HKOs hatterene, 2HKOs Iron valiant).

Adamant is the obvious choice for nature here, as attack is the only other stat besides speed we are worried about.

Choice scarf is necessary to outspeed the other mons mentioned earlier.

Unfortunately, Weavile's abilities are poor and pressure appears to be the best option.

Tera ice is necessary to OHKO the mons mentioned earlier.

16 SpD is to make switching into shady ball better

Weavile struggles with switching in - unfortunately weaviles bulk is nothing to be impressed by and often weavile will get one shot. Weavile pairs well with slower defensive or offensive pivots that allow weavile to switch in without getting hit. Another thing I should mention is weaviles weakness at dealing with walls - weavile, although has high damage, poses no real threat to most walls in the OU metagame, I would suggest running weavile with a strong special wallbreaker like hatterene. Weavile cannot sweep because of this, running weavile with a strong sweeper with little to no setup is a good idea - think cinderace.

Example team core

Orthworm
Cinderace
Hatterene
Weavile


Another strength of weavile is its ease of dealing with strong sweepers in the OU metagame. Paired with a solid stall or bulky team, weavile can allow you to ignore the enemy sweeper/wallbreaker and let them set up, only to outspeed and OHKO them. This allows strong setup mons to cripple the enemy team.

Example team core
Ting-lu
Weavile

[CREDITS]
Set: yourpzza

 

[Carl_the_turtle]

To add onto your point, Gamefreak primarily balances the game around their own format (VGC), which is an entirely different metagams than Smogon OU. While it's true that there is some overlap in what's good and what's bad, it's far from perfect (Examples: Tatsugiri is extremely centralizing threat in VGC but is absolute trash in OU. On the flip side, Spectrier for a while was considered kinda bad in VGC last gen even before they allowed box legends, but anyone who played OU last gen before it got banned can testify to how stupid it was there). You really can't use the argument of "it has to be broken if it got nerfed" when the nerfs were made in mind with a completely different metagame than what we play.

While this is important to keep in mind, I don't think it's pertinent to the recovery move nerf reasoning. While I have limited knowledge of the VGC metagame, I believe stall-based playstyles are considered underwhelming if not outright terrible in the format, so nerfing recovery PP seems contradictory to VGC balancing.

 

[MasterPlayer]

I have a very simple regarding Corviknight's recommended moves: Why is it never running Iron Head as one of it's moves?

 

[Rootb]

and the "rate my team" posts are useless 90% of the time, the player base either ignores the posts either give advice that does very little for the team or they can be somewhat toxic and accusse you for "rejecting their advice" if you dare to point out a single flaw in it (this happened at least once, where they kept acting as if I am "Rejecting their advice" although I repeatedly admited that they were right and my team was indeed weak to hazards and I was asking for ways to fix that weakness. I ended up asking a modderator to take down the post since communication with them was impossible.).

With as much respect as possible, given your signature and the fact that you've written a small novel over the last couple of days about how everyone else is wrong, I think it is far more likely that you were not taking their advice. After all, it doesn't seem like you're looking for "answers". You're looking for one, very specific answer, and not really offering any hints as to what it might be - just telling people off in an increasingly hostile tone for giving you a wrong one.

I mean, I get it. Sometimes people are wrong. But this isn't that. Not only do you not have to run a fire type to counter Amoongus, but there's there's been no shortage of counters suggested, or additional counterplay offered. A video won't do anything for you that these posts, and their subsequent replies, won't also be able to impart on you.

No one is telling you to get good because they want to insult you - they're saying it because you need to absorb some of the (quite plentiful) advice given to you about a pokemon that exactly one poster considers banworthy.

 

[Carl_the_turtle]

I have a very simple regarding Corviknight's recommended moves: Why is it never running Iron Head as one of it's moves?

4MSS. Defog is necessary to keep hazards off the field (unless your opponent pulls), Roost is important to keep it healthy throughout the match, U-turn allows it to conserve momentum, and your last slot generally goes to Body Press to take advantage of your def investment and deal with gambit or Brave Bird to deal with tusk while just being a stronger STAB with a better offensive typing than Iron Head.

 

[viivian]

this is the last time i'll be engaging in this debate, from here on out i'll just ignore anything else having to do with this argument.

I had to spent a couple of minutes in order to find a non-rude way to respond to this.
if iron valiant does not use psychic tera it can not get a OHKO with psyshock (why even use psyshock?is it really that scared of blissey?) therefore you CAN use spore on it.

psyshock is used to 2HKO clodsire, who would otherwise stonewall iron valiant....and yes, amoonguss. blissey doesn't care that much about psyshock but it gets 2HKO'd by focus blast should iron valiant find itself needing fighting STAB so even bringing it up is about as irrelevant as blissey is in this metagame

substitute in general isn't used that much.
although it is a widespread move knon by most ou pokemon the vast majority of them never touch it.

skeledirge uses it, SD garchomp uses it, espathra (prior to its ban) used it, roaring moon uses it on certain DD sets, not even mentioning the pokemon that literally passes free substitutes to its teammates. substitute is not at all uncommon in this meta

my initial point was that this pokemon forces one fire-type on every team.

so we're just ignoring the existence of gholdengo and how it completely blanks this pokemon, right? we're also going to ignore the existence of chain chomp, DD roaring moon, baxcalibur, corviknight, tera ghost garganacl and all the other meta-relevant mons that either OHKO amoonguss or stonewall it entirely?

okay I have to admit it, the pex was more out of hatred that it was not banned back in gen 8 where it absolutely deserved it rather than the trouble it gives me here.
but I still find it more annoying than garganacl which is a pokemon that does not annoy me in the slightest since there are plenty of answers to it and can not switch to pokemon with immunities to every single one of its weaknesses.
as for the corv...I still hate it.

that's a you thing. being fun/unfun to fight doesn't directly correlate to a pokemon being banworthy. i hate fighting heatran but it's very obvious that it doesn't need any tiering action in any generation it's seen in. and vice versa is true as well, i never particularly struggled with cyclizar HO teams but was it still unhealthy for the metagame? yes! just because you think a pokemon isn't annoying or isn't banworthy doesn't mean it actually isn't, not at all

also not cool man, what did i ever do to you?

improving in this game is impossible (at least for me) since there are almost 0 straightforward videos/articles on team building anywhere on the internet.
there are plenty but they are not straightforward at all.
almost all of them just do the bare minimum of explaining basic things like what wall breaker and a revenge killer is and maaaaaaybe a few things about cores if you get lucky, then they live you on your own to magically figure out anything else, because god forbid they make something like an exact formula on how to built the team or point out mistakes in team building or even describe the roles and the niches pokemon have. the ONLY straightforward video I have ever watched was that video that grady cool's video on how to built a sticky web team.
that guy gave the EXACT formula anyone is suppossed to use.
I used that formula in gen 9,my sticky web team had some modderate success.

and the "rate my team" posts are useless 90% of the time, the player base either ignores the posts either give advice that does very little for the team or they can be somewhat toxic and accusse you for "rejecting their advice" if you dare to point out a single flaw in it (this happened at least once, where they kept acting as if I am "Rejecting their advice" although I repeatedly admited that they were right and my team was indeed weak to hazards and I was asking for ways to fix that weakness. I ended up asking a modderator to take down the post since communication with them was impossible.).

if you're not able to find ways to improve, that's totally fine. if you're not able to find ways to improve and act as if pokemon you struggle with are banworthy then it's actually a problem. it's one thing to be bad at the game, since again, there's nothing wrong with that. it's a whole other thing to log onto these forums and spend hours complaining about the same few pokemon you personally do poorly against and refuse to accept criticism or any differing opinions.

 

[Novax]

I had to spent a couple of minutes in order to find a non-rude way to respond to this.
if iron valiant does not use psychic tera it can not get a OHKO with psyshock (why even use psyshock?is it really that scared of blissey?) therefore you CAN use spore on it.

Every time you say , Amoonguss doesn't get OHKOed , you have to consider , Amoonguss cannot magically come on Valiant without taking any damage . Also you CANNOT spore it if a opposing mon is already sleeping ( Its a fairly common strat to let a weaker mon be put to sleep against Amoonguss so that your main sweeper need not worry about it ) .

okay I have to admit it, the pex was more out of hatred that it was not banned back in gen 8 where it absolutely deserved it rather than the trouble it gives me here.
but I still find it more annoying than garganacl which is a pokemon that does not annoy me in the slightest since there are plenty of answers to it and can not switch to pokemon with immunities to every single one of its weaknesses.

Pex though it still sees usage has been highly nerfed , recover is now 8pp and it also lost scald so no more scald burn hax .

I have a very simple regarding Corviknight's recommended moves: Why is it never running Iron Head as one of it's moves?

Corviknight generally has 2-3 of its move slots taken up by Roost , U-turn and Defog . The last move is generally Brave Bird - a stronger stab option or Body press , over Iron head . Iron head is generally not seen much because both body press or Brave bird provide more value

 

[658Greninja]

improving in this game is impossible (at least for me) since there are almost 0 straightforward videos/articles on team building anywhere on the internet.
there are plenty but they are not straightforward at all.
almost all of them just do the bare minimum of explaining basic things like what wall breaker and a revenge killer is and maaaaaaybe a few things about cores if you get lucky, then they live you on your own to magically figure out anything else, because god forbid they make something like an exact formula on how to built the team or point out mistakes in team building or even describe the roles and the niches pokemon have. the ONLY straightforward video I have ever watched was that video that grady cool's video on how to built a sticky web team.
that guy gave the EXACT formula anyone is suppossed to use.
I used that formula in gen 9,my sticky web team had some modderate success.

and the "rate my team" posts are useless 90% of the time, the player base either ignores the posts either give advice that does very little for the team or they can be somewhat toxic and accusse you for "rejecting their advice" if you dare to point out a single flaw in it (this happened at least once, where they kept acting as if I am "Rejecting their advice" although I repeatedly admited that they were right and my team was indeed weak to hazards and I was asking for ways to fix that weakness. I ended up asking a modderator to take down the post since communication with them was impossible.).

I don’t know what to say to you at this point. I’m just gonna end off this convo with this.

Teambuilding is a skill you build upon through experience and metagame knowledge. Its simply practice on what you want to build around, your offensive/defensive cores, pivots, hazards, etc. If you want good teambuilding advice, Pinkacross is one of the best builders around and an amazing player. Teambuilding is also about getting a feel for your teams, your wincons. Focus on both teambuilding and piloting it.

Also a bit of advice from me is knowing vs applying. You can know all the important skills of laddering in PS, but if you do not apply them to your game, you’ll be stagnant.

One more thing, if you are so salty to a point where you consider Corv and Amoonguss banworthy. Outside of everything we just said today, take a break. It could be for an hour, a day, a week, or even a month. Its a game at the end of the day. After a while you will be more mentally sound. Just don’t ignore advice from top players or high ladder players when it comes up. I managed to climb to the 1800s multiple times this gen and got to the 1900s last gen. I didn’t even think I would be able to get to that point when I was hovering around the 1400-1300 range. Its all a mix between practice, application, and breaks. Just don’t advocate for a ban just cause you struggle to break through it.

 

[Concept Everything]

 

[Scilla]

While this is important to keep in mind, I don't think it's pertinent to the recovery move nerf reasoning. While I have limited knowledge of the VGC metagame, I believe stall-based playstyles are considered underwhelming if not outright terrible in the format, so nerfing recovery PP seems contradictory to VGC balancing.

Not to turn this into VGC time, but recovery is very much a thing in the format even if stall isn't. It's never been overpowered, but it does contribute to long games, so I'd suspect that the nerf to PP was primarily an attempt to reduce the number of games which go to time (which, to be clear, hasn't really succeeded, but, you know, GF gonna GF).

 

[YNM]

For the love of God stop talking about fucking Amoonguss, it's not even close to being broken. If the guy doesn't wanna run Gholdengo, Garganacl, Baxcalibur, Kingambit, Corviknight, other Amoonguss or even Forretress as an answer to it then it's pointless to keep arguing. I really hate saying this but if you get to the point of calling for the suspect of a mon that not a single other soul finds problematic in the meta, then just get better at playing.

 

[Karxrida]

I actually think Tyranitar’s best set rn is a special based mixed attacker
Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Rock
- Ice Beam
- Earthquake
- Flamethrower
- Crunch
Something like this, though the EVs need heavy optimization, the moves a bit random, and the item and Tera type can be optimized aswell. Ice Beam gets the jump on Great Tusk, Earthquake is a nice move to throw around and hits Clodsire, Flamethrower hits Corviknight, and Crunch is a stab move.

I used Special Mixed T-Tar all the way back in Gen 5. I was a super shit player then (was running Donphan on the same team lol) but it worked surprisingly well because people would just throw Landos at you with zero thought to die to Ice Beam. In today's meta being able to consistently lure stuff like Great Tusk is fairly valuable. Though I'd consider Fire Blast over Flamethrower purely for this calc.

0 SpA Tyranitar Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 172-204 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

(You're probably running SpA investment but still.)

Not top tier or anything but definitely worth exploring. Could probably do something super stupid and fun when combined with Tera.

 

[viivian]

For the love of God stop talking about fucking Amoonguss, it's not even close to being broken. If the guy doesn't wanna run Gholdengo, Garganacl, Baxcalibur, Kingambit, Corviknight, other Amoonguss or even Forretress as an answer to it then it's pointless to keep arguing. I really hate saying this but if you get to the point of calling for the suspect of a mon that not a single other soul finds problematic in the meta, then just get better at playing.

STOP POSTING ABOUT AMOONGUSS. I'M TIRED OF SEEING IT. MY FRIENDS ON TIKTOK SEND ME MEMES, ON DISCORD IT'S ALL FUCKING MEMES. I WAS IN THE OU SERVER, RIGHT? AND AAAAAAAALLLLLLL OF THE CHANNELS WERE JUST AMOONGUSS STUFF. I-I EVEN SHOWED MY CHAMPION UNDERWEAR TO MY GIRLFRIEND, AND THE LOGO I FLIPPED IT, AND I SAID "HEY BABE, WHEN THE SMOG IS CLEAR" HAHA! DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING. I LOOKED AT A TRASH CAN AND SAID "THAT'S A BIT SUSSY", I LOOKED AT A MUSHROOM, I THOUGHT OF AMOONGUSS AND WENT "THERE'S A FUNGUS AMONG US"!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

 

[zyzzyva]

Did someone say "One shot Amoonguss"?

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 548-648 (126.8 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Boom. OU is saved

 

[Karxrida]

Did someone say "One shot Amoonguss"?

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 548-648 (126.8 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Boom. OU is saved

Honestly, the fact that you have to use Tera Ice with Specs to guarantee the OHKO is kind of sad.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 410-486 (94.9 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

 

[YNM]

View attachment 491972

 

[1LDK]

Anyways, since the forum has officially become schizophrenic, let's talk about chesnaught



Wait, what do you mean, my post will get deleted because I'm talking about a mon that is not in the meta yet?
Alright then, chesnaught but with amongus


Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Focus Punch
- Seed Bomb
- Spore
- Substitute

Since the entire forum got tired on how to counter spore, I'm gonna change the spore user and bring this little fun set I have been using in
you guess it
stall (yes, I did use stall despite hating it, yes, I'm a hypocrite, and?)

Half the time doesn't do a lot due to pult and dengo, and the other time is OH MY FUCKING GOD LOOK AT THAT DAMAGE, MY GUY, this thing is free set up against worm teams, since they predict spore, and even if the sub back, focus punch will destroy the sub unless its a ghost, and toxic orb makes it hax proff (when it activates of course) HP eves are for maximizing magic sub numbers thanks to poison heal

while not as powerfull as SD, if you have a sub up, your opponent HAS to take a huge hit for it, ting lu´s whirwind means he is going second, and then you just smack it, it's actually fun given the right opportunity

 

[Concept Everything]

View attachment 491979

 

[Morkal]

Greedent

“True to their name, Greedent are extremely greedy and gluttonous. Greedent constantly gathers Berries and stuffs them into its tail; it will run to gather Berries even if it's in the middle of a battle.” - Bulbapedia

"Man, all this talk about Corviknight is making me hungry for conversations about things that aren't Corviknight. Also, I'm sorry for the delay on this writeup for the people on Showdown asking about Greedent; it took a lot more playtesting than normal to finalize this set, and I'm working + in college + have other life commitments that make finding time to do these writeups quite difficult." - Morkal​

STAT	LEVEL 100 STAT RANGE
HP: 120	350 - 444​
Attack:​ 95	175 - 317​
Defense: 95	175 - 317​
Sp. Atk:​ 55	103 - 229​
Sp. Def: 75	139 - 273​
Speed: 20	40 - 152​

Notable Moves

Physical - Body Press, Body Slam, Crunch, Earthquake, Facade, Fire Fang, Ice Fang, Psychic Fangs, Seed Bomb, Tera Blast, Thief, Trailblaze, Wild Charge

Utility - Belly Drum, Counter, Endure, Protect, Rest, Stuff Cheeks, Substitute, Super Fang, Swords Dance

Introduction​

Well, we've finally reached it, haven't we? We're finally talking about Pokemon's embodiment of Peter Griffin from Family Guy... but in OU? Really? The ZU squirrel? There are surely better Belly Drum users out there, right? Of course, but we're not using Belly Drum Greedent, so that's irrelevant. We're instead going to talk about a very disruptive set that functions similarly to Se Jun Park's famous Pachirisu set but with different advantages that suit a non-doubles meta far better. Greedent is a Pokemon with some surprisingly powerful benefits in the OU meta, thanks to the addition of Tera and an environment that is especially kind to it. So, without wasting more time on words even fluffier than Greedent's fuzzy coat, let's jump right in!

Summarized Advantages of Greedent in OU:
This is a "too long, didn't read" section for people who don't want to read a literal essay-length explanation of Greedent's qualities.​

• Greedent has unique role compression as a physical utility disruptor wall thanks to a unique movepool, ability, solid 120/95/75 bulk, situational typing, and Tera's ability to change that typing when needed.
• Greedent's niche comes from its ability to disrupt problematic OU team synergies in the early-mid game, allowing Pokemon on your team to have an easier time preparing for the late-game cleanup.
• Greedent dismantles specific team cores and acts as a bane to stall-heavy teams thanks to its ability to stall reliably with proper support. In addition, it opens up holes for you to switch in Pokemon that otherwise have a more difficult time reaching the playing field consistently.
• Greedent's Normal typing allows it to hard check or even counter specific meta sets such as the Nasty Plot, Hex, T-Wave, and Recover variant of Defensive Gholdengo (which cannot damage it at all and paralyzing Greedent means it cannot be Burned or Poisoned, Greedent does not care about the Speed Drop for obvious reasons).
• Greedent's ability Cheek Pouch combined with Stuff Cheeks means that it's very easy to get a +2 Defense and +1 Special Defense up while recovering HP in a pinch; combined with Body Press and Super Fang, opponents can be hit from all spectrums regardless of their defensive profile.
• Super Fang means that Pokemon such as Dondozo and Garganacl cannot spam-boosting moves because of the low PP of Recover, and the Sleep Turns involved with Rest.
• In addition to the utility of Stuff Cheeks, Body Press, and Super Fang, Thief allows Greedent to steal an opposing item once the berry is consumed, meaning that common switch-ins like Dragapult will lose their item.
• Greedent's bulk and immunity to Ghost typing are crucial in the current meta, and the ability to lure Fighting types by Terastallizing to Ghost-type in the mid-late game also acts in Greedent's favor. Additionally, Greedent's defensive prowess allows it to turn the tables on multiple Physical attackers quite quickly.

Disclaimer: Greedent is not easy to slap onto a team, as it requires teammates for support (great teammates will be explained later in the post), and it is NOT meant to be a sweeper. If you play to Greedent's strengths and think of it as a disruptor Pokemon meant to create vital opportunities for your other Pokemon while hitting unexpectedly hard, Greedent will serve your team very well!

Super Press Berry Disruptor

Greedent @ Apicot Berry
Ability: Cheek Pouch
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Super Fang
- Stuff Cheeks
- Thief

Offense Utility Breakdown​

So why does Greedent work? First, we're going to need to explain some things. Apicot Berry

is a pinch berry that adds +1 Special Defense to whichever Pokemon consumes it. Thanks to Greedent's signature move Stuff Cheeks, it can consume Apicot Berry anytime it wants to, so why is this impressive? Stuff Cheeks instantly consumes the user's held berry, activating its effect and giving the user +2 Defense along with Apicot Berry's +1 Special Defense buff. This alone would be impressive, but Greedent's signature ability, Cheek Pouch, means that Greedent also recovers 1/3rd of its HP upon using a berry. Additionally, this frees up Greedent's item slot, allowing it to use Thief and steal an item such as Leftovers. Even if a Pokemon with Unaware or the ability to boost Defense switches in, it still loses 50% to Super Fang (we'll get into that), meaning that even boosting Pokemon don't want to tangle with Greedent for too long. With +2 Defense and Max Investment, Body Press can hit some Pokemon quite hard. Let's look at some damage calculations -

Body Press Damage Calculations

+2 252+ Def Greedent Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur: 330-390 (88.9 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Def Greedent Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 186-219 (71.2 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Def Greedent Body Press vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl: 246-290 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Def Greedent Body Press vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Garganacl: 188-222 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Def Greedent Body Press vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 184-217 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO (After Close Combat or Headlong Rush on non-Defensive variants)

252+ Def Greedent Body Press vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 214-254 (74.8 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Def Greedent Body Press vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 428-504 (149.6 - 176.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Def Greedent Body Press vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Grimmsnarl: 218-257 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Def Greedent Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 338-398 (104 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Def Greedent Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 264-312 (82.2 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Def Greedent Body Press vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 528-624 (143 - 169.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Def Greedent Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 208-246 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Def Greedent Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 414-488 (141.2 - 166.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Def Greedent Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Orthworm: 170-202 (49.4 - 58.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Def Greedent Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Quaquaval: 185-218 (59.4 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Def Greedent Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 408-482 (116.2 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Def Greedent Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 106-125 (34.8 - 41.1%) -- 65.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Def Greedent Body Press vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 254-300 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery​

These damage levels on their own would be impressive, but when combined with access to Super Fang, it reaches a new level. Super Fang lowers the opposing target's HP by half, meaning that Unaware doesn't stop Greedent from chunking a switch-in, and neither do opposing defensive boosts on either side. For example, even a +6 252 HP, 252 Def Impish Orthworm loses 50% from full HP thanks to Super Fang. It is because of the combined utility of a solid defensive presence, +2 Body Press, and Super Fang that Greedent applies pressure. With Super Fang, most of those 2HKOs become OHKOs or require a Pokemon to spam Recover, allowing opportunities for a switch-in. Even if Greedent is damaged too much on an attack to use Stuff Cheeks, it will still get the +1 Special Defense boost and recover 1/3rd of its HP, thanks to its ability. This means that Super Fang and Thief will still be crucial, and Body Press can still get some notable damage on frail threats even without +2.

Speaking of Thief, what about when you use your berry and no longer have an item to give you a match benefit? Greedent's access to Thief gives it a way to slightly chunk frail Ghost and Psychic types while stealing their item, crippling them for the match. Additionally, stealing the item can allow you to scout what possible moveset the opposing Pokemon has, giving you a strategic advantage.

Thief Damage Calculations

0 Atk Greedent Thief vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Armarouge: 84-100 (22.4 - 26.7%) -- 30.3% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Greedent Thief vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ceruledge: 102-120 (28.8 - 33.8%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Greedent Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ceruledge: 102-120 (35 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Greedent Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 106-126 (33.4 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Greedent Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 88-104 (27.9 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 Atk Greedent Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 62-74 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery (The defensive set that runs Hex as its only attacking move cannot damage Greedent pre-Terastallization)​

Additionally, Thief has 40PP, meaning it's going to be a lot harder for a Pokemon to stall out Greedent in the long run with the combination of Super Fang, Body Press, and a possible lack of passive recovery if Leftovers is stolen.

Defensive Utility Breakdown​

This is where things start getting fun! So now that we've analyzed what Greedent can do offensively combined with its utility, what about its defensive prowess? Greedent is bulky even before boosts, thanks to 120/95/75 base defensive stats, but after its boosts, it becomes an absolute chonk unit. Normal typing may not look like much, but having a Ghost immunity + only one weakness can be more beneficial than one might think and provides Greedent with crucial switch-in opportunities. Let's look at Greedent's defensive prowess with calculations for +2 Defense and +1 Special Defense to show just how beefy Greedent really is, especially on the Physical side. I'm also including calculations for Pokemon with abilities and moves that bypass Greedent's defense buffs to show that, even without the +2, it can survive quite a lot.

Physical Defense Calculations

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 178-210 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 79-94 (17.7 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Breloom Close Combat vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 218-260 (49 - 58.5%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 110-132 (24.7 - 29.7%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO

252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 150-176 (33.7 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 43-52 (9.6 - 11.7%) -- possible 9HKO
252+ Def Unaware Dondozo Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 132-156 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- 16.3% chance to 3HKO

76 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 50-62 (11.2 - 13.9%) -- approx. possible 8HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 96-114 (21.6 - 25.6%) -- approx. 0.2% chance to 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 91-108 (20.4 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 123-145 (27.7 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 4 Def Garganacl Body Press vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 108-128 (24.3 - 28.8%) -- 99.1% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Garganacl Salt Cure vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 16-21 (3.6 - 4.7%) -- possible 7HKO after Salt Cure

252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 150-176 (33.7 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Close Combat vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 222-264 (50 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 55-66 (12.3 - 14.8%) -- possible 7HKO
4 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 122-146 (27.4 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Psyshock vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 46-55 (10.3 - 12.3%) -- possible 9HKO
+2 252 SpA Quark Drive Iron Valiant Psyshock vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 80-95 (18 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 88-105 (19.8 - 23.6%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 175-207 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent on a critical hit: 171-202 (38.5 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Quaquaval Close Combat vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 138-164 (31 - 36.9%) -- 73% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Crunch vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 67-79 (15 - 17.7%) -- possible 6HKO
+2 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Crunch vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 133-157 (29.9 - 35.3%) -- 21.5% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Close Combat vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 160-190 (36 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 87-103 (19.5 - 23.1%) -- possible 5HKO
0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 43-52 (9.6 - 11.7%) -- possible 9HKO​

As you can see, even banded STAB Super Effective Physical cannot reliably 2HKO Greedent, and neutral hits will generally bounce off Greedent, even pre-boost. Fighting-type moves are the only type of move super effective against Normal Greedent. With Shadow Ball and other moves being an easy switch-in opportunity for Greedent, its synergy with other threats on your team becomes very apparent. Speaking of synergy, Greedent's Special Defensive prowess isn't as impressive, but at +1, thanks to Apicot Berry, Greedent can live some surprisingly strong hits and get done what it needs to get done.

Special Defense Calculations

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Greedent: 223-264 (50.2 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Gholdengo Focus Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Greedent: 226-266 (50.9 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Focus Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Greedent: 336-396 (75.6 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Greedent: 169-199 (38 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Greedent: 252-297 (56.7 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Glimmora Earth Power vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Greedent: 83-98 (18.6 - 22%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Glimmora Power Gem vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Greedent: 166-196 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Glimmora Sludge Wave vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Greedent: 132-156 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- 13.2% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Glimmora Sludge Wave vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Greedent: 196-232 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Greedent: 227-269 (51.1 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Greedent: 140-165 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- 81.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Greedent: 139-165 (31.3 - 37.1%) -- 79% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Iron Moth Flamethrower vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Greedent: 132-156 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- 13.2% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Greedent: 124-147 (27.9 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Greedent: 186-219 (41.8 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
8 SpA Pelipper Hurricane vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Greedent: 97-115 (21.8 - 25.9%) -- 3.2% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Greedent: 105-124 (23.6 - 27.9%) -- 87.5% chance to 4HKO

8 SpA Unaware Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Greedent: 118-141 (26.5 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 8 SpA Unaware Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Greedent: 178-211 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Greedent: 94-112 (21.1 - 25.2%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO
+1 0 SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Greedent: 142-168 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 92.4% chance to 3HKO​

So while Greedent isn't as resilient on the Special side, it can still live some pretty gnarly hits, capitalize on the situation, and cripple or chunk an opposing Pokemon. The point of all these defensive calculations is to show that, even with the most potent hits in OU (some being super effective), Greedent has plenty of opportunities (with proper prediction) to switch in and either set up, chunk, or cripple an opposing Pokemon throughout the match. Early-mid-game advantages like this can determine how much pressure your opponent will feel in the late game without specific aspects of their team cores, and it should not be underestimated. Additionally, while it likely won't be Terastallizing often, Greedent's Tera-Type being set to Ghost provides some unique opportunities to throw off Pokemon attempting to prey on Greedent's one Fighting-type weakness and can effectively act as a lure.

Teammate Options​

Speaking of teammates, Greedent requires support to be used to the best of its capabilities, and some Pokemon are more suited to the job than others. So let's take a brief moment to talk about Greedent's teammate options!

Wish Support

Pokemon with Wish, such as Alomomola or Scream Tail, can help with Greedent's longevity issues once it consumes its berry (this is especially helpful if Greedent's Thief grabs an offensive item rather than Leftovers). Not only will this extend Greedent's ability to weave in and out of combat, but it will also frustrate your opponent's common Ghost-users, who cannot reliably spam Shadow Ball without risk.

Rapid Spin or Defog Support

​

Pokemon with Defog, such as Corviknight or Scizor, Rapid Spin users, such as Great Tusk or Forretress (underrated mon, by the way), or even Mortal Spin from Glimmora, can help to keep Greedent healthy due to its vulnerability to hazards. You have a lot more flexibility with this depending on your specific team composition!

Conclusion

Greedent was frustrating to figure out at first; however, its impressive defensive capabilities and offensive utility can leave your opponent scrambling if you play to its strengths. I want to say that I love Gen 9 OU far more than quite a few previous generations, thanks to the flexibility in team building, and I hope it continues to flourish with the new additions soon to come in Pokemon Home and likely eventual DLC! Thank you all for reading!

 

[1LDK]

Greedent

Man, you were missed, thanks for another certified hood classic man, you're doing god's work

 

[Critaquil]

Greedent
​

at this point I could see one of these about sunflora and I wouldn't even be shocked

anyway, how are people feeling about ho in general now that pathra is gone?

 

[Talpr0ne]

I disagree, I think nerfs like the ones that you mentioned is the devs paying attention to certain aspects of the meta. Reducing toxic movepools, reducing event movepools by the mark guy in sword and shield so things like victini isn't limited in its viability because of event only moves, and other examples is the devs looking at certain data (its probably one person on lunch break) going "oh this seems a little too prominent" and changing it. Maybe the pp reduction is also another example of that, and who knows if regenerator won't be nerfed in gen 10 at this rate.

That's not the point I was making though. What I was saying is simply that because a element was rebalanced by the devs, even if the change indeed ends up being for the better (which in my opinikn was the case this time but it's not always so) this does not mean it was not possible to play around reliably before, or that it warranted to be banned by a fan community which at least on paper strives to not ban things unless deemed absolutely necessary.

 

[awyp]

I have a very simple regarding Corviknight's recommended moves: Why is it never running Iron Head as one of it's moves?

U-Turn is a must, Roost is a must, Defog is a maybe. So lets say you have 2 open slots you could run a Body Press / Iron Defense Combo, you can also just drop U-Turn and put Brave Bird. Iron Head is a solid option but it's mainly for Fairies which isn't super prevalent in OU right now. It's more common to run Iron Head in Ubers because of the prominent fairies in the tier (Like Flutter Mane)

 

[Ctann]

one of the best qualities of garg was its ability to soft counter / check chien-pao. with it being banned this has caused new tera-types to be legit justifiable / consistent. here's 2 i have been playing with in this post-pao meta:
1. View attachment 491880 tera-ground eq allows garg to bypass common cloak counter-play without the need to curse. it breaks even tera-fairy skeledirge's sub (which curse can't do). because curse isn't required anymore you have a free slot last to run whatever. i prefer block since it allows you to remove stuff like tusk, clod, pex, etc. 'mons that normally come in to scout / waste garg's pp. removing tusk especially is broken and can outright win games
2. View attachment 491882 with pao banned, valiant is this tier's most versatile and preferred breaker with its specs & AoA sets. poison hard counters valiant with the addition of cockblocking breloom and amoonguss

garg continues to have an unhealthy effect on the teambuilder and can afford to adapt/experiment more with each meta shift
a lot of counter-play is tech'ing the aforementioned substitute on random shit like rotom-w, hatterene, and hydreigon which are pokemon already strapped for moveslots as is.
the only "adaptation" i can get down with is substitute skeledirge since that set does work even when you don't play a garg

the most common & best cloak user, gholdengo, is forced to burn its tera to beat curse-less eq variants (which can open you up to something like iron valiant later). other cloak users such as corviknight, great tusk, toxapex, and amoonguss tend to be unreliable because these 'mons also end up being your knock absorber for threats like opposing , etc... which you will see in the replays below.

i have been using other knock off users such as to varying levels of success as they are less exploitable / direct beneficiaries from the pao ban. in gallade's case, it's a strong breaker with knock whose niche continues to become more valuable each meta shift with the tier's overall power levels decreasing

ladder replays

ladder replay 1 - cloak corv is a horrendous cloak user when 90% of teams are already using it to deal with tusk and meow
"well go something else on said knock user!"
do you not see how restrictive this is in the builder?
doubling down on answers to mons that way i can avoid knock on my cloak mon in order to beat garg aint it. especially on more defensive archetypes which got nerfed to the ground and are borderline unviable this gen to begin with

ladder replay 2 - opponent tera's his pex in order to "pp stall" my garg but the reality of the situation is that doesn't help. one thing that people don't realize is the nerf to recovery moves is actually pro-garg because people can't pp stall salt cure as easily. imagine if corv had 16 roosts. it'd be able to sit on garg for a while and roost off most of garg's salt cures with pressure

ladder replay 3 - this is your so-called "meta adaptation" in which people are running substitute on their fucking hatterenes. and this is not a "small cost" as my garganacl has 36 speed ev's and my opponent was still faster than that meaning it's not just a moveslot but also a fuckton of ev's being invested to make this set work (and funny thing is he still needed hax to kill my garg!)

ladder replay 4 - cloak pex is not an answer to block variants and i didn't even need to knock it off nor tera to 1v1 it. my opponent's only out here was by tera'ing his toxapex and the garg user wins in the situation because they would have burned their tera on a fuckin' pex while i didn't have to use mine. i was able to heal up later on corv and then salt cure the rest of his team

ladder replay 5 - god i've been wanting to get this guy ctann for a fat minute on ladder. some very questionable takes such as the "garg is like heatran" which i found to be a complete stretch. his so called anti-garg offense with dual substitute in this replay still lost because of how mindless and easy this 'mon is to support
for example is what i've been testing rn due to its beautiful synergy with poison-garg not just defensively but offensively too with its ability to spread knock. very underrated and i can see it rising up the ranks fast in this post-pao meta

ladder replay 6 - sub dirge, cloak pex, possibly a sub pult as well. these are the lengths players are going too and yall call this healthy? it didn't actually stop garg considering how splashable its team support is which is the funniest part. s/o sz for this team https://pokepast.es/61009791b0a2de71 broken af

also i'd like to say block is not a fringe option. in fact i don't think any of garg's lesser used moves are "fringe options" because the reality is this 'mon only needs salt cure + recover to be bullshit

INB4 IT'S LADDER ALL OF MY OPPONENTS PLAYED LIKE SHIT AND WERE ASS DESPITE THE GAMES BEING 1850+ RATED

spl replays

spl replay 1 - garg players have been getting creative to bypass the cringe building trends that have arised to beat this thing. curse + block + covert cloak is an example of this

spl replay 2 - don't let the result distract you from how much work this thing did before eventually going down

View attachment 491876
View attachment 491776
i'd also like to address garg's spl win-rate. as you can see garg has had some abysmal win-rates but even some of the losses show how ridiculous this thing can be (ex. the leo match above). the main reason for a lot of losses is not solely due to the extremes people are going to beat this thing

in spl, people are obviously playing to win
so what they gon' use?
all the broken HO cheese bullshit (espathra, tera'd paos, orthworm getting a free shed tail on garg etc)
games as of late are about power so it should be no surprise that stuff like aggressively sd'ing with valiant is going to be faster progress than salt cure

HO being the best playstyle rn is overshadowing garg's unhealthy tier presence
even in this replay above the garg still did a sizable amount of work since salt cure is a totally fair, honest, and balanced move am i right guys?

recent ost replays

ost replay 1 - recent r2 ost game which is monai (a great player) vs my brotha SSGOAT clean. garg went absolutely stupid and i think this replay is a high level example of when my boy MS highlighted that "garg can't be checked" and "you have to attempt to hard counter it." as you can see getting a knock off vs it with tusk helps. key word "helps." people act like knocking it off invalidates it or some shit when it's hardly the case. you're simply just limiting its longevity max

ost replay 2 - this was very well-played. this luis guy played the garg extremely aggro and used it as his "hyper stall wall" or whatever u want to call it forcing residuals on the 2 mons that potentially stop bu tusk late-game. paid off fantastically. a mon this defensive / fat should not be allowed to force this much progress. fuck garg fr fr

ost replay 3 - game 3 of m dragon's round 2. curse garg wins despite his opponent having a cloak dengo. great "counterplay" my guy

ost replay 4 - once again, curse garg, sets up, gg.

ost replay 5 - ONCE AGAIN, curse garg, sets up, gg.

ost replay 6 - NOT AGAIN curse garg, sets up, gg. pex can't pp stall it even post tera. cloak dengo is obviously useless.

garGG

gonna postface this post by saying garg is far from unbeatable & even if this 'mon isn't as broken as espathra or chien-pao, it still doesn't change the fact it's unhealthy imo. fuck garg it needs to go asap

same with orthworm/ shed tail. it's uncompetitive nonsense that enables HO way too much, but i'll go more in-depth on this later. thx

haha I feel attacked, with the 6-0 disgrace and the comments about the heatran comparison.

when the meta fills up to the point where both heatran and garganacl are in it, I’d be interested to see people’s perceptions of each.

one has better stats and a recovery move, the other has better typing for switching in and stronger firepower.

your experimenting with block + salt cure is also interesting, as it brings heatran to mind immediately.

although block and salt cure are much more permanent.

yes agreed that Garganacl has become stronger with each offensive ban. Since none of those offensive Pokémon that have been sent to Ubers had any issues with it whatsoever.

Diversity of options on garganacl are more prominent now, and are likely to change once again when home releases the new swathe.

garganacl is definitely the 2nd best Pokémon in OU right now, I don’t think there’s any denying it. If it’s not obvious to everyone yet, it will be soon. Espathra could previously set up on it and/or run it over, whilst CP could either force a Tera, KO it, or get it to sub 40% reliably.

although I think that game was lost mostly due to the teams inherit weakness to grass/dark stab and knock off weakness, much more than a Garg one. The 6-0 disgrace was exacerbated with a high risk play on the iron tusk to try and salvage an otherwise unwinnable set after 3 bad predictions in a row.

p.s. if you’re vertex on ladder, have played you numerous times