Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Eeveepunter]

I personally am sad to see Iron Bundle go. As an iteration of my favorite mon of all time, I am admittedly biased.

I see the reasoning behind the ban, but I just didn't feel like it warranted a quick ban. I do hope it can be suspected in the future, I'm just not ready to let my present-bearing friend go.

 

[bogglywoods]

Razorsharp3000, ownerfloor and reviews2D, you can laugh at my annihilape post but at least I ain’t whining for another ban :)

I think the fact that you're directly calling people out and being snarky because they thought something you said with funny might be a little uncool

 

[ryangregory78]

After discussing, it turns out that our amazing development and coding team already was made aware of this prior and is implementing a fix in the immediate future.

Direct, turn-of damaging attacks impact Rage Fist. Any other move does not. Think of it like moves that would trigger Counter or Mirror Coat (in the wise words of Lily). This means things like Poison damage no longer impact it.

I also want to thank Marty for his timely and helpful response to all of my inquiries thus far. All of the PS contributors have been professional, timely, and very explanatory so far.

I would say that this means I can poison Annihilape and wear it down that way but then I realized that BU+Rest and BU+Taunt are its best sets at the moment. So yeah this thing stays amazing.

Resto Chesto completely nullifies Toxic from Pokemon like Amoongus and/or T-Spikes from Glimmora and Toxapex (maybe idek if that thing's even good or not now) and while Taunt can't prevent poison from T-Spikes, it still completely shuts down all status moves that could be used to beat this thing. Breloom and Amoongus can't shut it down with Spore, Clodsire and other Poison can't cripple it with Toxic, and if you're faster, you can't even be Taunted yourself.

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

Lol definitely got skill floor and skill ceiling mixed up. Thanks for your guys' responses. :)

 

[Unowndragon]

i think we should quick ban Gholdengo
Full of stealth rock and Spikes，The existence of Gholdengo has a considerable impact on the balance between spikes and rapid spin and defog
Scarf/Air ballon all really strong
if u want to against spikes+Gholdengo,u must use Maushold/Mold Breaker Hawlacha/many heavy duty boots,if u do not use many boots,many time u can't win spikes and stealth rock+Gholdengo
It greatly affects players to form a team

 

[viol and bass]

I swear the people who are coming in to complain about our tiering practices have no idea how good we have it. I literally marvel every day at how transparent, communicative, and receptive the leadership is. There is not a hint of elitism. People come in here with the absolutely wildest takes and they're listened to. There was absolutely a time when it was not this way, and the average Smogon poster had no idea what was being planned or why. Now we know when votes are happening, what's being voted on, specific reasoning on each mon, if you ask questions about it you are answered, they do surveys periodically... it's volunteer work and they are doing a fucking bang-up job. Chill out.


Florges @ Leftovers
Ability: Flower Veil
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Moonblast
- Synthesis
- Calm Mind

So, this mon is pretty solid on its own merits, but Tera-Grass is kind of a cool gimmick. Flower Veil is an ability that applies to all grass-types on the user's side, and it blocks all status as well as stat-drops. This notably also applies to the user if they are a grass-type, which has never been relevant before because Florges is the only recipient. Anyway, it's cool on a Calm Mind set because if you're facing a Toxic user such as Clodsire or another status mon, you can pop the tera-grass and suddenly be immune to all status. It kinda breaks certain stalls in half with Stored Power breaking past Unaware users. The one thing I'm not sure about is if Flower Veil's prevention of stat drops would neutralize Haze and Clear Smog. I don't think so, but it's possible. Anyway, kinda gimmicky but cool.

 

[Player J]

bro, 12/14 of those mons were low tier before good as gold was added to the game.. scizor can do it and corv would be the 100% slapped on every team defogger.

I'm not against testing him but the viable defogger pool is shallow as ever and I find it hard to reasonably ban it because the 1 not-shitmon defogger can't defog. That's why I'm personally on the fence cause its either knight is mandatory to deal with hazards due to lack of removal, or ghoul is mandatory to keep them up, idk which is worse which i'd need a suspect test to read through to sway one way or the other.

I disagree.
The Pokémon you consider shitmon’s are only bad in a format which has an obnoxious amount of Defoggers.

14 Pokémon isn’t shallow.
It is a healthy amount of Defogger.

These Pokémon you call bad could flourish in this format if they wasn’t being oppressed by 1 Ability on 1 Pokémon

 

[Reviews2D]

I disagree.
The Pokémon you consider shitmon’s are only bad in a format which has an obnoxious amount of Defoggers.

14 Pokémon isn’t shallow.
It is a healthy amount of Defogger.

These Pokémon you call bad could flourish in this format if they wasn’t being oppressed by 1 Ability on 1 Pokémon

But not only does that one 1 pokemon has that 1 ability, it's also one of the most common mons on ladder. Sure a few of them are good but out of those good mons would realisticly run defog. Like Hawlucha can technically run defog but it has other moves it rather run.

 

[zantaRay]

I disagree.
The Pokémon you consider shitmon’s are only bad in a format which has an obnoxious amount of Defoggers.

14 Pokémon isn’t shallow.
It is a healthy amount of Defogger.

These Pokémon you call bad could flourish in this format if they wasn’t being oppressed by 1 Ability on 1 Pokémon

Literally the only good pokemon in that list are corviknight and scizor. Hawlucha can do some neat stuff but it never wants defog, and if I'm feeling really generous I might ever consider putting Talonflame on a team (I won't though). If you're putting any of the them on your team to make you more resistant to hazard spam, you should build teams less vulnerable to hazard spam.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

I disagree.
The Pokémon you consider shitmon’s are only bad in a format which has an obnoxious amount of Defoggers.

in what world is lurantis getting a defog off even if it was the only one in the whole game lol?

Those aren't viable defoggers at all, with or without corv.

Scizor is a maybe but scizor would rather do more than be a support mon right now. If you have to run literal garbage tier just to keep hazards off the field... fuck it at that point we'd have to look at how centralizing hazards themselves are.

I just don't see how that;s a good argument for removing good as gold.

 

[lordkira]

I wish to Nominate further Quick Bans to the Council.
I think 2 Pokémon are not enough.

Frankly, I think the Council is being to passive in Banning these Broken Pokémon, Moves, or Mechanics.
I think the Council needs to be more aggressive in their Ban’s.

1st - I want to Nominate a Quick Ban for Dragonpult.
The Below Screenshot is taking directly Gen 8 PokémonDex.

View attachment 468485
Several Pokemon who are “Dragonpult” Checks & Counters are not out in the game.

In addition, The Person who wrote the Checks & Counters named several Pokémon then said those checks are not really checks if Dragonpult is running other move set variation? WTF

I want to know who Hard switches into Dragonpult? Blissey?
Is it Iron Bundle all over again?

It is my understanding that the Councils Goal with Quick Bans is to take the blatant strong Pokémon out of OU which restricts Team Building.
I want to know how many Pokémon actually Hard Counter Dragonpult

Generation 8 - Dragonpult might have been ok because they had several Pokémon options which could collectively deal with him.
Generation 9 - We lack a lot of Pokémon and I haven’t seen anyone talk about any New Pokémon which Counter Dragonpult.

Has the day come when Dragonpult has simply because to strong for OU?
I think Dragonpult is very Oppressive.
I feel Dragonpult should be Quick Ban.

Look at all the things Dragonpult has going for it:
- Fastest Speed in the OU Tier
- Strong Offensive Moves
- Strong Typings
- A Lack of Defensive Checks due to the fact most of his Checks & Counters are not out, yet

2nd - I want to Nominate a Quick Ban for the Ability Good as Gold (Which is Gholdengo ability)
The Council did a vote on Gholdengo and found him not Ban Worthy.
I completely agree with the Council Gholdengo isn’t Ban Worthy!

What I think is Ban Worthy is Gholdengo Ability Good as Gold.
See what I did there guys? I found the Technicality.
View attachment 468501

I want to bring evidence of Good as Gold Ability being OverPowered!.
I want to clear up a misconception people have been saying which could have influenced the Council’s Decision.

Players in the forum keep saying the amount of Hazard Removal Pokémon are limited.
This is a fat out lie!

The below screenshot shows 14 different Defogger in the game.

View attachment 468502

We can clearly see there isn’t a lack of Defogging Hazard Removal.
The issue is the Ability Good as Gold is completely shutting down Defog.

1 ability outright shutting down 14 Pokémon.
Is that not oppressive and overpowered?

Gholdengo is an average Pokémon at best.
Gholdengo isn’t Ban worthy.

The Ability Good as Gold is a Godlike ability.
The Ability Good as Gold is Ban worthy.

The issue is ”Gholdengo“ is the only Pokémon with the ability Good as Gold.
Thus, what needs to happen is for Gholdengo to be ban, until the game releases a new Pokémon with the same ability.

Once, A new Pokémon comes out with the same ability as Gholdengo, we can monitor & compare how the new Pokémon does in the meta.
If the new Pokémon completely shuts down Defog similar, Than we will truly know for sure that the Ability was broken and not Gholdengo.
Gholdengo should then be allowed to rejoin OU just with out his ability.

If the new Pokémon doesn’t shut down Defog, Than we will truly know for sure that Gholdengo was broken and not Ability.
Gholdengo would than stay in Ubers.

NOW LET ME ASK YOU ALL A QUESTION
Do you think Gholdengo would be as popular as he is if he didn’t have the ability Good as Gold?

3rd - I want to Nominate a Quick Ban for the Move Shed Tail.
Once again, I agree with the Council Decision to not ban Cyclizar.
I believe Cyclizar isn’t ban worthy.

What I think is Ban Worthy is Cyclizard move Shed Tail.
Shed Tail is absolutely broken in every sense of the word.
Shed Tail has turned the Regular move Substitute as we know it and transformed it into Substitute on Steroids.

Powerful Sweepers & Wall Breakers which use the move Substitute did so at the cost of their own health & move pool.
- The Reduction in Health reduced the longevity of the Powerful Sweepers or Wall Breakers.
Allowing Players the option of potentially using Revenge Killers with Priority moves to finish it off after being weakened.

- The Move Substitute in the Move Pool of a Sweeper reduces the Lens of all the Pokémon it can destroy.
Allowing Players the option of potentially having an Effective Counter.

Shed Tail uses the Health Pool & Move Pool of a completely different Pokémon to make a Sub.
Than passes the Sub. to the Powerful Sweeper or Wall Breaker.

Full Health Sweeper - Which completely invalidates the possibility of revenge killing with priority.
3rd Move Pool Slot - Which pressures a player’s roster of possible checks.

Now, The move Shed Tail is on 2 Pokémon Cyclizar & Orthworm.
I believe both of these Pokémon are not Ban Worthy.
I think they are good Pokémon, but not Godlike.

I think the move Shed Tail is Godlike.
I think the move Shed Tail should be Ban.

NOW LET ME ASK YOU ALL A QUESTION
If Cyclizar was Ban tomorrow, Do you think Shed Tail would fall off the Map?
Or
Do you think the players using Cyclizar would delete him from their roster and add Orthworm in his place to keep abusing Shed Tail some more?

In my eyes, Any Ban to Cyclizar or Orthworm individually would make no difference.
I think the real Culprit is the move.

The mere fact players use Cyclizar more vs. Orthworm is simply happenstance.
Cyclizar happens to have little more Health vs. Orthworm to make slightly fatter Subs.
Cyclizar happens to have little more Speed vs. Orthworm to make set up sweeps slightly faster.

4th - I want to Nominate a Quick Ban for the New Gen 9 Terra. Mechanic.
I believe Pokémon being able to Change Typing at a moment notice in a Battle is Fundamentally Flawed and destroys everything Pokemon has tried to accomplish for the past 20 years.

I wish I knew the imbecile responsible for creating the Terra. Mechanic.
They should be fired and ban from all Official Pokémon events.

Honestly, Do you know who I feel sorry for the most?
The Smogon Strategy Pokédex Authors.

Gen 8 - Arcanine Checks & Counters on Smogon Strategy Pokédex:
View attachment 468518

Wait till the Authors make Arcanine Gen 9 Check & Counters, You can almost image it can’t you?

Water-types: Offensive Water-types like Starmie and Blastoise are the hardest for Arcanine to deal with, until he Terra Electric and Completely Destroys you with a Electric Terra Blast move.

How fabulous!
I can’t wait to see it.

How do you peeps they will do it?
Will they put a warning label at the end of each Check & Counter list?
Will they put a warning label at the beginning of each Check & Counter list?
Will they write a single 1 liner sentence? —-> Checks & Counters - They don’t exist this Generation, Thanks Game Freak!

Its funny to think about because of how sad the situation is.
Oh, well I ranted long enough.

I also believe dragapult has been running low under the radar of the council, esp now with several mons banned. I, too, believe dragapult is suspect worthy and fully expect it to be ban worthy if tera is not banned in the future. I do believe it now deserves to be one of the premier candidates for tera, opening up opportunities for dragapult to be a physical juggernaut it can be (eg tera ghost). And in conjunction with its special sets that are proven to be more than decent, I believe dragapult’s versatility has skyrocketed to a point of potentially troublesome degree. However, I’m unsure if it really is quickban worthy. I think people at least need time to adjust from the new toy syndrome and adjust to the new state of meta after the latest bans before hastily looking into banning dragapult.

 

[BlackKnight_Gawain]

Back again to throw in a quick few thoughts after some slow laddering and sitting comfortably mid-ladder right now (I'm primarily more room tours player now bc it preserves more sanity):

1) Pretty happy to see the water bros gone (ok maybe a bit sad on Bundle even if I didn't use it, but all my uses of it are in other metas right now and I've grown fond of winning a few tours with that), most of my ladder losses were from having to play around one or both of them.

2) The Dragonite/Dragapults enjoying good right now, feel like a lot more Dragonite on the menu going forward without Bundle.

3) Two mons I think are severely underrated are Breloom and Iron Moth. Breloom works well as an anti-lead and shuts down hazard stack from bursting first few rounds, and Iron Moth cleans up Glimmora's Toxic Spikes pretty fast. Pair these with a Tusk and another optional spinner like Torkoal (if you're playing sun teams, use Treads or another mon if not) and you can stop hazard spam from being too overwhelming if you play right.

4) Tera hasn't been as swingy as I thought it would, at least not in this part of the ladder. Ironically, I've won more games without it than with it, but it's very likely the loss leader is the person who goes first because they tend to tera either as part of an offensive gameplan (Palafin) or as a defensive measure that doesn't quite end well in other cases. So far it feels more like the mons itself that really made matchups suck were the problem regardless of clicking the tera button, but we'll see in due time once the inevitable suspect test happens.

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

Taking a quick side bar to quickly rant about the biggest injustice in this game:

My beloved Sawsbuck lost Jump Kick.

Now, I know he isn't really OU standard, but I need to rant.

Steel types are an extremely common type and it resists both of his dual stabs, grass and normal. For GF to take away his best answer to steel feels like a huge nerf. Of course, this new shortcoming can be overcome with tera fighting and tera blast, but it felt so in character for Sawsbuck to learn it. I think a buck could do a kinda jump and kick someone and hurt themselves if they miss. Stab jump kick with tera could make Sawsbuck better than ZU. I want it to be better than ZU. That boy carried me in Pokemon White, and Jump Kick was instramental in that. I feel cheated and hurt for him.

 

[Harb1ng3r]

Wanting a competitive metagame is fine, but there need to be a balance between that and attractivity.

7G was fantastic because you could be creative and 8G felt like the most boring shit in comparison... Tera is the reason 9G is interesting this time, team building is funnier and more complex than it has ever been and I really don't want it to go.

I disagree about most things that are said against Tera in a competitive point of view as well (like the 50/50 situations... Seriously? The game is all about that since 1G already). But honestly, whatever how broken it is, I think Smogon should just accept it and live with it so the community can finally has the size it deserves.

My opinion is that if Tera is banned, maybe a dozen of people will have fun flexing about how competitive they are, but basically no one will care about them and the Pokemon scene will continue its downfall.

The issue is that the game isn't really about 50/50 situations, and never has been, even since Gen 1. Pokemon at high levels is about creating a gameplan, finding your win condition, and working towards it, making relatively informed choices in order to position yourself in a place where you can win the game. While true 50/50 situations have always existed, they are extremely rare, are usually born out of deadlocked endgame situations, and aren't particularly conducive to skill expression. I think that there are a few at least somewhat compelling pro-tera arguments, but this one really isn't it. Also, "continue its downfall"? Come on. Competitive singles has a constantly growing playerbase and fanbase, a playerbase that grew even during a Gen 8 metagame that was pretty widely disliked.

 

[laborgay]

Started playing OU after a long, generation 8 sized hiatus, and have been seeing a lot of sentiment on Tera that just fundamentally does not make sense to me.
I can see arguments for it having too much ability to flip a game state being an issue, or it having a negative effect on game balance due to the amount of counterplay it offers, both of which I agree with to certain extents. However, one sentiment that keeps cropping up is the idea that it causes the game to require less skill, which, I'm gonna be honest sounds completely headass. I don't think any precedent exists in any competitive game where more in match counterplay options and more team construction options lower the skill ceiling. One of the things that I've seen thrown around is the idea that you can lose to a "random" tera mon when you have played the matchup better than your opponent, which is I think, kinda weird. This assumes that:

A) Your opponent's tera choice/setup was not chosen specifically for the situation they are in or one similar to it
B) You could not have in any way played around/had reason to suspect the opponents tera configuration based on how they played

These are both examples of conflating potential counterplay with "RNG" or "50/50s". I don't intend to be entirely dismissive of this idea, but I have yet to see anyone offer any compelling evidence that supports the idea that adding more offensive and defensive nuance to the game lowers the skill ceiling, and instead a lot of what sounds like whining that you can no longer click the super effective move on an opposing mon without second guessing yourself.

There are situations where a game having too many options for teambuilding and counterplay can have an unhealthy effect on its larger metagame (making the game inaccessible to less experienced players, forcing players to account for too many things to fit on one team), and Tera is Probably an example of that, but I get the feeling the skill ceiling argument is dubious buzzword spam at best.

 

[Vrin]

instead a lot of what sounds like whining that you can no longer click the super effective move on an opposing mon without second guessing yourself

I think this kind of rhetoric betrays a very short-term view on how Pokemon is played.

Pokemon is not won or lost based off of plays on individual turns; it's won or lost based off of the ability to recognize a "plan" and to accomplish that plan. My current sentiments towards Tera's effects on the game (and it's possible I'm wrong here, but if so, I'd like someone to explain to me how to overcome this) is that Tera doesn't just make long-term planning harder, it makes it near-impossible to consistently benefit from.

That is to say, Tera's ability to throw 5000 different wrenches in your plans at once with no opportunity cost means that, as far as I've seen, it's almost always superior to make a "short-sighted" play of trying to do "what's best in the given turn", rather than making plays that may be counterintuitive in the short term in order to set up a win condition. And to me, that does lower the skill cap. Any random ladder hero can identify what a good move to click is and know what they need to predict around (yes, you can predict around Tera and it does happen) — my point is that, if THIS is your bar for the "skill cap", that is lower from what it's been in past generations, where the top level (i.e. tournament play) was focused around jostling win conditions and finding profitable angles of attack.

IDK, to me your post is pushing forth skills that players who reach 1700 elo have already mastered and is acting like these are some genius forms of skill expression. No, players will learn to "play around" Tera on individual turns, no one's disputing that — the problem isn't the individual turns, it's the effects on the overall game.

 

[Harb1ng3r]

I think this kind of rhetoric betrays a very short-term view on how Pokemon is played.

Pokemon is not won or lost based off of plays on individual turns; it's won or lost based off of the ability to recognize a "plan" and to accomplish that plan. My current sentiments towards Tera's effects on the game (and it's possible I'm wrong here, but if so, I'd like someone to explain to me how to overcome this) is that Tera doesn't just make long-term planning harder, it makes it near-impossible to consistently benefit from.

That is to say, Tera's ability to throw 5000 different wrenches in your plans at once with no opportunity cost means that, as far as I've seen, it's almost always superior to make a "short-sighted" play of trying to do "what's best in the given turn", rather than making plays that may be counterintuitive in the short term in order to set up a win condition. And to me, that does lower the skill cap. Any random ladder player can identify what a good move to click is and know what they need to predict around (yes, you can predict around Tera and it does happen) — my point is that, if THIS is your bar for the "skill cap", that is lower from what it's been in past generations, where the top level (i.e. tournament play) was focused around jostling win conditions and finding profitable angles of attack.

I honestly couldn't have summed up my own feelings better. While yeah conflating tera with rng can be problematic, it does add so many variables, all of which a game's outcome can potentially hinge on, that it makes long-term planning really difficult and has a nasty tendency to distill a game down to only a few meaningful turns.

 

[laborgay]

Tera doesn't just make long-term planning harder, it makes it near-impossible to consistently benefit from.

That is to say, Tera's ability to throw 5000 different wrenches in your plans at once with no opportunity cost means that, as far as I've seen, it's almost always superior to make a "short-sighted" play of trying to do "what's best in the given turn", rather than making plays that may be counterintuitive in the short term in order to set up a win condition.

There are very much things you can not only still do with Tera involved, but things you can actively encourage with your own Tera choices! Baiting out your opponents tera is part of any long term gameplan in any meta where Tera is legal. Forcing your opponent to make a tera choice that doesn't advance their own win condition and instead delays yours is part of any good long term gameplan in a meta with Tera as an option. These are changes to the way in which you make and advance a gameplan, not forsaking it entirely, and ignoring that is dishonestly approaching the mechanic.

 

[bogglywoods]

There are very much things you can not only still do with Tera involved, but things you can actively encourage with your own Tera choices! Baiting out your opponents tera is part of any long term gameplan in any meta where Tera is legal. Forcing your opponent to make a tera choice that doesn't advance their own win condition and instead delays yours is part of any good long term gameplan in a meta with Tera as an option. These are changes to the way in which you make and advance a gameplan, not forsaking it entirely, and ignoring that is dishonestly approaching the mechanic.

The issue is that there are so few tera strategies that don't immediately and in the long run benefit you with 0 cost other than the cost of not being able to do it again later. If there was an actual cost to it I guarantee that people would be a lot less split on the mechanic.

 

[halpalumps]

Maybe I'm not fully understanding what the issue is, but to me as an "average player" tera seems like just another factor for set building? Like how you can sort of use the entire team to sus out a pokemons set, theoretically it would be the same for tera typing? (At least once the meta settles) It feels like it becomes part of the set for that pokemon. And yes you coyld always have that one tera you never saw coming, but it again seems less likely, and a lot like when for example you expect a corviknight to be its bulky defog set when its actually iron defence+power trip. Might be wrong here tho but to me it feels like exciting and fun nuance that doesn't really take away from competitive any more than anything already exsisting?

 

[Harb1ng3r]

You know which Tera is the most likely to be present on a Pokemon so you still know what are your potential win conditions. Not with 100% certitude, but in your team building you need to prepare alternatives and counters as well.

You also know you need to be prudent as long as your opponent didn't burn their Tera. Once they do, you can have a clearer vision on your way to win.

In the end, the way of thinking is different than usual but doesn't feel uncompetitive to me. I believe skill is still highly rewarded.

But it doesn't matter, as I said even if it's broken I still want the community to accept it and base the meta around it.

While you can sometimes guess what the opponent is running, the fact that this one guess can be swing an outcome so heavily is extremely frustrating and curbs both the impact of sound teambuilding and solid long-term planning within a game. I think that this issue, while present in many scenarios, is most apparent and problematic when dealing with setup sweepers. The very asymmetrical amount of information that tera can bring to a gamestate, as well as the wide variety of types that one can tera into, has a nasty tendency to lead to setup sweepers getting a second boost. Guessing wrong on the Tera type of the opponent's DD Roaring Moon, Pult, or Dnite, or their QD Volcarona, or whatever and sending out the wrong defensive check or revenge killer can lead to the opponent grabbing a second boost and winning on the spot. There's no "react accordingly once they do", because there are a bunch of scenarios where making a single wrong read on which of several types a Pokemon is can be curtains.

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

You know which Tera is the most likely to be present on a Pokemon so you still know what are your potential win conditions. Not with 100% certitude, but in your team building you need to prepare alternatives and counters as well.

You also know you need to be prudent as long as your opponent didn't burn their Tera. Once they do, you can have a clearer vision on your way to win.

In the end, the way of thinking is different than usual but doesn't feel uncompetitive to me. I believe skill is still highly rewarded.

But it doesn't matter, as I said even if it's broken I still want the community to accept it and base the meta around it.

They did something similar for Gen 5. Weather was thought of as a key feature, so they have done everything they could to keep it around. In the long run, from what I know, it turned into an absolute mess and is not thought of fondly by most players. If the same is done to tera, it could potentially ruin the meta. What would've happened if Gen 8 kept dynamax? it would've been a steaming mess of garbage.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy tera and wanna play with it, but I want the community to thrive as well, cause I don't have a lot of friends to play with IRL.

 

[ayevon]

Whether being able to change your type to one of the 15 or so different ones on a whim is competetive or not from a macro perspective is part of an arguement that has the right to be made and argued against, but I think everyone can agree that, regardless, it is very uncompetetive on a significant amount of pokemon that can abuse it in a much more noteworthy way than the vast majority of other pokemon. So then I think the question becomes if you have a large number of pokemon that need to be banned because their ability to abuse a game mechanic, would it not be more reasonable to just ban the game mechanic that is causing all of them to be out of control.

 

[bogglywoods]

Whether being able to change your type to one of the 15 or so different ones on a whim is competetive or not from a macro perspective is part of an arguement that has the right to be made and argued against, but I think everyone can agree that, regardless, it is very uncompetetive on a significant amount of pokemon that can abuse it in a much more noteworthy way than the vast majority of other pokemon. So then I think the question becomes if you have a large number of pokemon that need to be banned because their ability to abuse a game mechanic, would it not be more reasonable to just ban the game mechanic that is causing all of them to be out of control.

This is 100% my philosophy on tera. There's so many Pokemon that benefit way too much from it (especially fast set up sweepers) to the point where if you guess wrong, especially on those abusers, you lose completely. Competitive or not, it just isn't fun that so many matches come down to whether or not you were right about the specific tera type being ran and which Pokemon is running it.

 

[tigers jaw]

tera will always be used, even if the premier abusers of it atm are banned, because it is zero-drawback and incredibly strong. not only do the problems of it being uncompetitive persist if we ban certain mons atm, as the best mons will still all use it, the overwhelming strength it grants will, too.