Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor
The Terastallize mechanic: A case for a Complex Ban / Tera Clause

(terrastallizing is a long word, so I'll just be using Tera for this)

Tera is the cornerstone mechanic of generation 9, following previous mechanics of Dynamax and Z-moves (and to an extent megas).
While Tera proves to be extremely effective in this metagame, it is in my opinion less of an uncompetitive mechanic than both the banned Dynamax and Z-Moves. Most of you should know by now what Tera does, and it's implications aren't that difficult to understand. You can mainly use the Tera phenomenon for A) offensive purposes, by either boosting your stab, or gaining stab on a coverage move, or even gaining a new form of coverage with Tera blast, or B) defensive purposes, usually trying to overturn your weaknesses on either a sweeper, or a defensive pokemon.
A lot of pokemon that do well in the current meta and that abuse Tera to great effect will fulfill these two purposes, think Dragonite, Palafin, Iron Valiant and obviously a lot more.

I think this creates a really interesting dynamic that is unique to generation 9, figuring out which pokemon you should Tera in a given matchup and when you should Tera it, creates a very interesting addition that makes generation 9 distinct from generations before it.
However, the most polarizing aspect of Tera lies in it's unpredictability. One simply cannot guess at team preview what tera type a pokemon will be, and both offensive and defensive counterplay to them will almost entirely depend on what type that pokemon ends up Teraing into.

For example, an Annihilape comes in against my Tyranitar, I now have to prepare adequate counterplay to it's switchin. As a typical setup sweeper, I have to both account for it's current type, as well as a potential new tera type. There simply isn't any way to do this reliably, when most setup sweepers can viably run several different tera types all with different counterplay. I don't necessarely think this is an issue with specifically Annihilape, or specifically Palafin, or specifically Dragonite. Any pokemon that can setup it's own stats to prepare for a sweep and unpredictably alter it's own weaknesses destroys 80% of offensive counterplay, which currently often leads to people searching for purely defensive answers to common meta threats.

This creates a meta that eventually becomes a lot more stall / bulky offense based then offensively based, while it may seem that this isn't the case with all the crazy offensive threats roaming around. Higher rated matches will often display that 2-3 bulky pokemon that can cover a large majority of offensive pokemon are required to be successful in the current metageame. While promoting more bulky playstyles isn't necessarily a bad thing, having no guaranteed offensive counterplay to a pokemon in team preview in my opinion leads to a worse metagame overall.

Now what's the solution to this? Banning Tera?

I think that the Tera mechanic is a) extremely important to developing gen 9's identity, b) has one main competitive flaw around it and c) has a large playerbase that wants Tera to remain in the tier in some capacity.

Other people have talked about this in length, but I genuinely believe a Tera Clause would cause a genuinely positive impact on the metagame, mitigate it's main competitive flaw and satisfy most of the playerbase. The Tera Clause in particular would involve revealing the Tera Types of the opposing team's pokemon during team preview and battle, effectively acting as a gentleman's agreement to both players to reveal their Tera Types orally.

While some would argue that adding arbitrary restrictions to mechanics overall over complicates metagames, and wouldn't be entirely wrong in saying so, the OU metagame currently implements a similar clause already.

Sleep Clause has been a contentious issue for over a decade, and is arguably worse than a simple gentleman's agreement because it fundamentally changes the game mechanics from the cartridge game. One cannot simply play with sleep clause the same way on cartridge and on pokemon showdown, because they are fundamentally coded differently. I think almost everyone would agree that unrestricted sleep is broken, probably more broken than the Tera mechanic, and while I understand that there exists some nuance in the comparison, such as sleep being a fundamentally RNG based mechanic, Sleep as a mechanic was "nerfed" to make it not as overbearing.

I believe we could use a similar argument to make a Tera Clause, I and probably many others would believe that the unpredictability factor is one of if not the main reason Tera is overbearing / broken, while arbitrary, this clause would allow the mechanic to become much more healthy for the tier, allow new and diverse strategies with multiple forms of counterplay and boost the viability of otherwise unused pokemon.

I understand the argument of "we did x thing once already, but that doesn't mean we should do x again", but I truly believe this would be a beneficial and welcome change to the way we currently all play with Tera. I and many others would hate to see this unique mechanic go, simply because of an aspect that we can directly alter with a non cartridge-deviating clause.

I sincerely hope that adding a Tera clause plays a big part in the Tera discussion, instead of just Ban or No Ban suspect vote.
 
i never had many issues with annihilape tbh, but my main team is dondozo + pult to deal with palafin and bundle (+ support) so maybe I'm just overstacked for it LOL
 
The Terastallize mechanic: A case for a Complex Ban / Tera Clause

(terrastallizing is a long word, so I'll just be using Tera for this)

Tera is the cornerstone mechanic of generation 9, following previous mechanics of Dynamax and Z-moves (and to an extent megas).
While Tera proves to be extremely effective in this metagame, it is in my opinion less of an uncompetitive mechanic than both the banned Dynamax and Z-Moves. Most of you should know by now what Tera does, and it's implications aren't that difficult to understand. You can mainly use the Tera phenomenon for A) offensive purposes, by either boosting your stab, or gaining stab on a coverage move, or even gaining a new form of coverage with Tera blast, or B) defensive purposes, usually trying to overturn your weaknesses on either a sweeper, or a defensive pokemon.
A lot of pokemon that do well in the current meta and that abuse Tera to great effect will fulfill these two purposes, think Dragonite, Palafin, Iron Valiant and obviously a lot more.

I think this creates a really interesting dynamic that is unique to generation 9, figuring out which pokemon you should Tera in a given matchup and when you should Tera it, creates a very interesting addition that makes generation 9 distinct from generations before it.
However, the most polarizing aspect of Tera lies in it's unpredictability. One simply cannot guess at team preview what tera type a pokemon will be, and both offensive and defensive counterplay to them will almost entirely depend on what type that pokemon ends up Teraing into.

For example, an Annihilape comes in against my Tyranitar, I now have to prepare adequate counterplay to it's switchin. As a typical setup sweeper, I have to both account for it's current type, as well as a potential new tera type. There simply isn't any way to do this reliably, when most setup sweepers can viably run several different tera types all with different counterplay. I don't necessarely think this is an issue with specifically Annihilape, or specifically Palafin, or specifically Dragonite. Any pokemon that can setup it's own stats to prepare for a sweep and unpredictably alter it's own weaknesses destroys 80% of offensive counterplay, which currently often leads to people searching for purely defensive answers to common meta threats.

This creates a meta that eventually becomes a lot more stall / bulky offense based then offensively based, while it may seem that this isn't the case with all the crazy offensive threats roaming around. Higher rated matches will often display that 2-3 bulky pokemon that can cover a large majority of offensive pokemon are required to be successful in the current metageame. While promoting more bulky playstyles isn't necessarily a bad thing, having no guaranteed offensive counterplay to a pokemon in team preview in my opinion leads to a worse metagame overall.

Now what's the solution to this? Banning Tera?

I think that the Tera mechanic is a) extremely important to developing gen 9's identity, b) has one main competitive flaw around it and c) has a large playerbase that wants Tera to remain in the tier in some capacity.

Other people have talked about this in length, but I genuinely believe a Tera Clause would cause a genuinely positive impact on the metagame, mitigate it's main competitive flaw and satisfy most of the playerbase. The Tera Clause in particular would involve revealing the Tera Types of the opposing team's pokemon during team preview and battle, effectively acting as a gentleman's agreement to both players to reveal their Tera Types orally.

While some would argue that adding arbitrary restrictions to mechanics overall over complicates metagames, and wouldn't be entirely wrong in saying so, the OU metagame currently implements a similar clause already.

Sleep Clause has been a contentious issue for over a decade, and is arguably worse than a simple gentleman's agreement because it fundamentally changes the game mechanics from the cartridge game. One cannot simply play with sleep clause the same way on cartridge and on pokemon showdown, because they are fundamentally coded differently. I think almost everyone would agree that unrestricted sleep is broken, probably more broken than the Tera mechanic, and while I understand that there exists some nuance in the comparison, such as sleep being a fundamentally RNG based mechanic, Sleep as a mechanic was "nerfed" to make it not as overbearing.

I believe we could use a similar argument to make a Tera Clause, I and probably many others would believe that the unpredictability factor is one of if not the main reason Tera is overbearing / broken, while arbitrary, this clause would allow the mechanic to become much more healthy for the tier, allow new and diverse strategies with multiple forms of counterplay and boost the viability of otherwise unused pokemon.

I understand the argument of "we did x thing once already, but that doesn't mean we should do x again", but I truly believe this would be a beneficial and welcome change to the way we currently all play with Tera. I and many others would hate to see this unique mechanic go, simply because of an aspect that we can directly alter with a non cartridge-deviating clause.

I sincerely hope that adding a Tera clause plays a big part in the Tera discussion, instead of just Ban or No Ban suspect vote.
I already found have a possible solution (though it might be a controversial one), why don’t we have TWO seperate tiers/ladders/meta games (or whatever you want to call it): one with Terastalizing allowed, and one without. To each his/her own, you know?
 
The thing with Gholdengo is that it doesn’t just deter hazard removal, it outright denies it. You don’t just get your spinner/defogger in for free, your opponent is going to be applying pressure and you’re going to really have to fight and play for the positioning to get your spinner/defog in in the first place. And it takes the hazards chip in getting itself in. So, even if you call the Gholdengo switch and kill it in one (even though it is more like 2 typically), your opponent is still going to have the hazards up, and bring in something that forces the spinner/fogger out. And by the time you can get your spinner/fogger back in, the hazards have already done enough work chipping away at your team.
 
What do you all think of my idea of TWO seperate tiers/ladders/meta games (or whatever you want to call it): one with Terastalizing allowed, and one without. To each his/her own, you know?
 

Finchinator

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I already found have a possible solution (though it might be a controversial one), why don’t we have TWO seperate tiers/ladders/meta games (or whatever you want to call it): one with Terastalizing allowed, and one without. To each his/her own, you know?
Splits the playerbase and creates a need for an excessive amount of resources and contributors, which we don’t always necessarily have at our disposal or readily available

Something like that was considered with Dynamax and while a decision like this goes way over the head of an individual council or tier leader, that’s partially why — neither tier would be able to recover or form properly from there
 
I already found have a possible solution (though it might be a controversial one), why don’t we have TWO seperate tiers/ladders/meta games (or whatever you want to call it): one with Terastalizing allowed, and one without. To each his/her own, you know?
If Tera is banned, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a Tera OM created, but my guess is that it would struggle to maintain a large player base
 
Shed Tail is just an uncompetetive move regardless of who's using it. The ability to pass subs in response to a switch from the opponent allows too many free setup turns for too little opportunity cost. Obviously Earthworm certainly has much more opportunity cost than Cyclizar, but it has an amazing typing and ability combo which can allow it many free turns itself. Shed Tail + 4 or 5 setup mons, especially in a meta with tera and booster energy, just become setup roulette.
And your Pokémon is getting passed a sub with zero drawbacks. Also, you can pass it more than once with a Sitrus Berry. I am a noob, but my opponent forfeited when they had only the magician cat left and I passed a sub to a Skeledirge with nearly full health.
 

Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor
I already found have a possible solution (though it might be a controversial one), why don’t we have TWO seperate tiers/ladders/meta games (or whatever you want to call it): one with Terastalizing allowed, and one without. To each his/her own, you know?
As Finch mentionned, this creates too much of a ripple in metagames.
If we decide to split the ladder into two, which becomes the official tier?
You can't really play both tiers in tournament, it becomes a hassle to organize teams into gen9-notera and gen9-withtera, it would have to just become a discussion on which tier would be the official one, which is at the end of the day effectively the same as banning one or the other.
 
Tatsugiri @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Storm Drain
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Hydro Pump
- Draco Meteor
- Nasty Plot / Taunt

delibird problem? tera fire tatsugiri will wall both hydro pump with storm drain and also ice beam/freeze dry. free rapid spin as well! any ghost type (like gholdengo) trying to spinblock will think twice about potentially switching into a strong hydro pump or draco meteor. ive been using this on a rain team, but i think it can definitely be effective outside of rain.
 
You pass the sub to something that resists what you're currently facing so the sub doesn't break, then you set up on the switch or get a free set up whilst they break the sub and if they switch to something that hits you super effective you tera to hide your weakness and at this point you're so far behind you're unlikely to win. It's broken and it's absurd it wasn't insta banned like baton pass was and always will be.
Yes but compared to cyclizar it is much worse at doing so, no recovery + being slow as shit means u really cannot pass more than one sub. and its low hp means that even resisted hits against a sub are more liely to break
 
Splits the playerbase and creates a need for an excessive amount of resources and contributors, which we don’t always necessarily have at our disposal or readily available

Something like that was considered with Dynamax and while a decision like this goes way over the head of an individual council or tier leader, that’s partially why — neither tier would be able to recover or form properly from there
Ever considered the fact that your "contribution" beyond just implementing the tiers on Showdown is neither necessary nor welcome?
 
Splits the playerbase and creates a need for an excessive amount of resources and contributors, which we don’t always necessarily have at our disposal or readily available
i love seeing the hundreds of people reading this very thread right now, why would anyone want to split it? i completely agree with finch’s take. tera is an interesting mechanic and i think it’s too early to say whether it’s healthy or not in the long term.

i would argue that, while offensively tera-ing to bypass checks is STUPID strong, it still requires good timing and game sense to work to its fullest potential.

and there’s counterplay! remember emvee’s “he who dynamaxes first loses”? it feels like a similar principle - if you pop your tera early, your opponent now has the surprise factor and, in many cases, can swing the momentum back their way. It’s different, and forces a new way of thinking, but that isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

tldr: i agree with the council removing the blatantly broken mons first and letting the meta explore tera some more
 
The Terastallize mechanic: A case for a Complex Ban / Tera Clause

(terrastallizing is a long word, so I'll just be using Tera for this)

Tera is the cornerstone mechanic of generation 9, following previous mechanics of Dynamax and Z-moves (and to an extent megas).
While Tera proves to be extremely effective in this metagame, it is in my opinion less of an uncompetitive mechanic than both the banned Dynamax and Z-Moves. Most of you should know by now what Tera does, and it's implications aren't that difficult to understand. You can mainly use the Tera phenomenon for A) offensive purposes, by either boosting your stab, or gaining stab on a coverage move, or even gaining a new form of coverage with Tera blast, or B) defensive purposes, usually trying to overturn your weaknesses on either a sweeper, or a defensive pokemon.
A lot of pokemon that do well in the current meta and that abuse Tera to great effect will fulfill these two purposes, think Dragonite, Palafin, Iron Valiant and obviously a lot more.

I think this creates a really interesting dynamic that is unique to generation 9, figuring out which pokemon you should Tera in a given matchup and when you should Tera it, creates a very interesting addition that makes generation 9 distinct from generations before it.
However, the most polarizing aspect of Tera lies in it's unpredictability. One simply cannot guess at team preview what tera type a pokemon will be, and both offensive and defensive counterplay to them will almost entirely depend on what type that pokemon ends up Teraing into.

For example, an Annihilape comes in against my Tyranitar, I now have to prepare adequate counterplay to it's switchin. As a typical setup sweeper, I have to both account for it's current type, as well as a potential new tera type. There simply isn't any way to do this reliably, when most setup sweepers can viably run several different tera types all with different counterplay. I don't necessarely think this is an issue with specifically Annihilape, or specifically Palafin, or specifically Dragonite. Any pokemon that can setup it's own stats to prepare for a sweep and unpredictably alter it's own weaknesses destroys 80% of offensive counterplay, which currently often leads to people searching for purely defensive answers to common meta threats.

This creates a meta that eventually becomes a lot more stall / bulky offense based then offensively based, while it may seem that this isn't the case with all the crazy offensive threats roaming around. Higher rated matches will often display that 2-3 bulky pokemon that can cover a large majority of offensive pokemon are required to be successful in the current metageame. While promoting more bulky playstyles isn't necessarily a bad thing, having no guaranteed offensive counterplay to a pokemon in team preview in my opinion leads to a worse metagame overall.

Now what's the solution to this? Banning Tera?

I think that the Tera mechanic is a) extremely important to developing gen 9's identity, b) has one main competitive flaw around it and c) has a large playerbase that wants Tera to remain in the tier in some capacity.

Other people have talked about this in length, but I genuinely believe a Tera Clause would cause a genuinely positive impact on the metagame, mitigate it's main competitive flaw and satisfy most of the playerbase. The Tera Clause in particular would involve revealing the Tera Types of the opposing team's pokemon during team preview and battle, effectively acting as a gentleman's agreement to both players to reveal their Tera Types orally.

While some would argue that adding arbitrary restrictions to mechanics overall over complicates metagames, and wouldn't be entirely wrong in saying so, the OU metagame currently implements a similar clause already.

Sleep Clause has been a contentious issue for over a decade, and is arguably worse than a simple gentleman's agreement because it fundamentally changes the game mechanics from the cartridge game. One cannot simply play with sleep clause the same way on cartridge and on pokemon showdown, because they are fundamentally coded differently. I think almost everyone would agree that unrestricted sleep is broken, probably more broken than the Tera mechanic, and while I understand that there exists some nuance in the comparison, such as sleep being a fundamentally RNG based mechanic, Sleep as a mechanic was "nerfed" to make it not as overbearing.

I believe we could use a similar argument to make a Tera Clause, I and probably many others would believe that the unpredictability factor is one of if not the main reason Tera is overbearing / broken, while arbitrary, this clause would allow the mechanic to become much more healthy for the tier, allow new and diverse strategies with multiple forms of counterplay and boost the viability of otherwise unused pokemon.

I understand the argument of "we did x thing once already, but that doesn't mean we should do x again", but I truly believe this would be a beneficial and welcome change to the way we currently all play with Tera. I and many others would hate to see this unique mechanic go, simply because of an aspect that we can directly alter with a non cartridge-deviating clause.

I sincerely hope that adding a Tera clause plays a big part in the Tera discussion, instead of just Ban or No Ban suspect vote.
I really like the idea, having a Tera clause would put limits to its unpredictability. I do suggest to don't show the tera type tho, otherwise would be way too much. Like you know Dragonite could Tera, but you can only guess if it's going to go for 160 E. speed, a boosted E.quake, super stabbed D.claw etc... If that's the case you would still have an element of surprise that will make you play cautiously but not entirely blindly guessing.
Cheers
 
On the matter of Annihilape, I feel like in the (very unlikely) event it sees any Radar action, it's important to keep in mind the context of the game. Rage Fist means he eats defensive cores easily, since those will often lack the power to cut through his decent Bulk or outspeed his otherwise-middling Base 90, but won't be anything too spectacular against the offensive teams that run rampant in the early gen. This could change significantly when Palafin and a likely Bundle Quickban allow more viable variety in defensive options, or at least mons with different Offense/Defense utilities on teams in the tier. Home and DLC could have similar effects with shaking up the roster and playstyle balancing act.

I just think Rage Fist might be getting a lot of hype for really big number when in practice it and Annihilape are good but not that stand-out once we move past the Hyper-Offensive new Toy period a lot of New mons and mechanics changes play into (by which I mean HO to try stuff out whether or not it is the dominant playstyle weeks down the line)
 

TCTphantom

formerly MX42
I already found have a possible solution (though it might be a controversial one), why don’t we have TWO seperate tiers/ladders/meta games (or whatever you want to call it): one with Terastalizing allowed, and one without. To each his/her own, you know?
A two ladder solution does not work. One latter inevitably dies out as it goes on. This is what happens in BW with DW OU or whenever Rocks were seen as a problem. I don’t see how it would be better now.
 
it's important to keep in mind the context of the game. Rage Fist means he eats defensive cores easily, since those will often lack the power to cut through his decent Bulk or outspeed his otherwise-middling Base 90, but won't be anything too spectacular against the offensive teams that run rampant in the early gen.
I don't think "completely invalidates teambuilding archtypes that aren't offense" is a particularly strong arguement for it being balanced
 
I don't think "complete invalidates teambuilding archtypes that aren't offense" is a particularly strong arguement for it being balanced
My point was moreso that he performs well specifically against those team building archetypes while having mediocre at best performance against others, which is not a strictly uncommon state for a lot of Pokemon in a Gen. Besides that it was also to raise the question of if Annihilape having very strong performance against Balance/Stall would be a banworthy topic if those playstyles were already extremely hard to play efficiently because of several other factors in the tier as is.

The rest of my post also brought up the consideration that other restrictive threats like Palafin and Iron Bundle being removed would give defensive cores ways to diversify rather than hyper focus on hem, which potentially results in them becoming more common because they can deal with other things more efficiently, including a building-up Annihilape.
 
Why is Salamence (the OG) getting 0 love so far? The guy is actually extremely good right now, having a large amount of defensive utility alongside having super effective coverage against a significant portion of the metagame, yet I've not seen anyone else mention nor use him. There's also a strong surprise factor in not many people actually knowing what it is Salamence is capable of in SV OU and that helps a decent bit in ladder. I've been running this -

Salamence @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Draco Meteor
- Hurricane
- Roost

Obviously if you're confident in your hazard clearing you can go lefties, but with how crazy things are right now, boots are a safer bet.
Salamence is an extremely strong switch-in to almost any commonly run physical attacker not named Chien-Pao or Baxcalibur and forces them out with either a strong STAB or Flamethrower. He takes almost nothing from a non-ice attack from Palafin, can switch into Breloom's STABS with ease (and be a decent sleep absorber if need be), and generally bully the metagame.
Fairy tera allows Salamence to completely wall its Paradox cousin and even safely switch in to some Ice attackers, though you'd almost definitely want to run boots if doing so.
I think for any non-hyper offense team, having something that can guaranteed safely switch in to some of the many, many physical offensive threats and force them out in return is extremely viable, and I've not really found anything that does this better than Salamence, especially given the current lack of non-ice STAB moves. Play him as you would a Landorus that doesn't know U-Turn because that's functionally what it is.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
do yall have to deal with this stuff at the beginning of every gen, or is this one particularly bad?

I could never frfr
The bigger the power creep, the more the Council has to deal with salty people like that who whine and cry about losing their favorite mons/mechanics instead of actually developing even the tiniest grain of skill. This gen is particularly bad because we got a lot of OP threats and a new potentially-broken (I personally can’t judge one way or the other) mechanic.
 
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