Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Granted, unlike Pex Garg can actually sweep sometimes with its curse set. But I don’t think that this is too much of a factor right now. Honestly, I’d rather test Shed Tail, Kinggambi, or Volcarona before we revisit Garg. It’s one of the few decent stopgaps to HO plaguing the meta. Let’s not make it worse.

i feel like the meta's not in a good place right now, but with home on the horizon (until game freak inevitably announces "whoops sorry we're delaying it till summer, please understand"), i don't think we should be testing anything at the moment. we're about to have way too much on our plate as it is, and i don't want to be in the middle of a suspect when home drops. remember how bad the meta was during the tera suspect because the council couldn't qb the obviously broken stuff till it was over? imagine that but with spectrier, tera regieleki, and last respects basculegion. oh yeah, and spikes magearna, both urshifus, hoopa-u, and possibly one or more zamazentas

 

[kingmickey27]

Or retest Tera. We're talking about the broken abusers, but not the mechanic itself.

Furthermore, the Tera suspect results ended in with 59.25% of the 346 voters wanting to act on Tera in some way. The cutoff point was 60%, which is really really fucking close. Revisiting it shouldn't be out of the question with all of these things considered.

 

[awyp]

Or retest Tera. We're talking about the broken abusers, but not the mechanic itself.

Furthermore, the Tera suspect results ended in with 59.25% of the 346 voters wanting to act on Tera in some way. The cutoff point was 60%, which is really really fucking close. Revisiting it shouldn't be out of the question with all of these things considered.

Agreed, but just reiterating what Finch and the others in the council have said which is there will potentially be a revisit to consider suspect testing Terastallization after HOME but nothing is guaranteed but there will be no considerations prior to that.

Circa Jan 2023

 

[Karxrida]

okay so this is random but please bring back drypassing

complete drypassing, no boosts, no subs, fuck baton pass as intended by game freak

there are quite a few baton passers that have no other pivoting moves, and I think that would simply add more viability to more Pokemon

in particular sylveon and scream tail could use it to pivot and not be a sitting duck after taking a hit. plus this would allow them to pivot and wish pass, giving another thing to balance!

great tusk for instance can be overworked a lot in games, and kingambit otherwise really can bone balance. so being able to wishpass to tusk for example would add a lot more to balance's toolbox imo

on the subject of shed tail: ban that shit lmao, fuck outta here. i dont think a qban is in the cards, but suspect please :3

Hi, was there for the clusterfuck that was Gen 6 Baton Pass discourse. Don't do this. The amount of complex bans required is too convoluted and there is barely any benefit to Drypass in a Pursuit-less world anyway. Just hard switch.

 

[ant4456]

Attempts have been made to nerf Baton Pass in the past & have all resulted in some broken variant emerging in its place, whether it be passing w/ Geomancy Smeargle or Scolipede or some other variant that's busted in prior generations. It is a shame since Baton Pass does add some cool strategies to the game (one of my favs was Subpassing w/ Mienshao out of bad MUs or BPing out of Ttar w/ Celebi) but ultimately, the number of complex bans or game modifications that would need to be enacted to make BP balanced to stop cheap BPers (whether it be banning setup moves + Baton Pass, sleep + Baton Pass, or making it so that Baton Pass auto-fails when behind a Sub / using a boosting move) makes it a lot easier to just ban the move despite allowing for some cool & unique strategies. I do think Drypassing is a lot less useful now than it was in, say, gen 5 because there is no Pursuit now, and if BPers aren't allowed to pass sub / boost, I rather not bring the move back since that was core to its use & identity.

I have seen no evidence that pure Drypassing (no sub, no boost) is bad for the game. The point isn't to allow Baton Pass as a strategy, it's to allow more Pokemon to have a pivot move.

I don't care if it takes many rules. You will find I will not always agree if you use the complex bans philosophy. I think there are valid complex bans. This allows more options to a teamstyle that is already struggling.

A lot of this post is about Baton Pass, as if I was advocating for Baton Pass. I think Baton Pass is stupid. I just want more pivoting moves for what is mostly a pool of underpowered Pokemon, which immediately comes at an inherent opportunity cost larger than almost every other move (not allowed to run Substitute, any boosting move, on the set; or in an ideal interpretation not even allowed to use the move if an opponent boosts your stats).

The point is not to nerf Baton Pass. It's to allow DryPass, a thing that simply exists to switch out a Pokemon to another; pivoting. DryPass is nothing like a Baton Pass strategy, as it is basically just using

Bad Teleport.

Bad U-Turn. Bad Volt Switch. Bad Flip Turn.

If you see it as "nerfing Baton Pass to make it not broken", you do not see the point. Because I don't want to legalize Baton Pass strategies in any way, or extent. If you cannot make the distinction between DryPass and Baton Pass, we will not see eye to eye on the subject.

On the post above on "there is no point", well yes, there is.

Wish is the only recovery move with 16 PP now. And it is best with a pivoting move, to allow your bulky Pokemon to take the hit and heal your target safely.

This allows you to do that, and makes Wish Passing a way more consistent strategy.

 

[CheesyBrie]

I know i said it on April Fool's but i think the council should discuss implementing tera types on team preview. That's what VGC does.
I doubt it solves losing to a well-timed tera, but it makes it far less of an uncompetitive guessing game.
Sure you "know" what the tera type is, because no one is going to tera bug their dragonite, but knowing that the possibility is there gives players a pseudo-possibility of playing around it.
And if implementing a tera on preview doesn't alleviate that burden, it can be re-evaluated whenever home drops.

and i don't think tera-preview is something that can be suspected. It would have to be on the next survey and/or council voting slate.

Also to not bury the sticky web topic:
How are webs supposed to work with BE?
Is this a bug? (Lol)

In conclusion, i think the only people who should focus on tera rn are the OU Council members and possible implementations to help turn it from a complete guessing game into a strategic timing mechanic.

 

[Moyashi]

I have seen no evidence that pure Drypassing (no sub, no boost) is bad for the game. The point isn't to allow Baton Pass as a strategy, it's to allow more Pokemon to have a pivot move.

No one claimed it was. The point is drypassing required an extremely arbitrary set of rules to enforce, and realistically most Pokemon won't use it commonly if at all. Like examples you gave

in particular sylveon and scream tail could use it to pivot and not be a sitting duck after taking a hit. plus this would allow them to pivot and wish pass, giving another thing to balance!

Sylveon is fringe as is, and scream tail is strapped for slots and passive enough already. It wouldn't really have room for it most of the time.

I don't care if it takes many rules. You will find I will not always agree if you use the complex bans philosophy. I think there are valid complex bans. This allows more options to a teamstyle that is already struggling.

Bans don't happen just to make a playstyle better. Balance is struggling for a number of reasons and allowing drypass of all things is not going to suddenly fix it.

A lot of this post is about Baton Pass, as if I was advocating for Baton Pass. I think Baton Pass is stupid. I just want more pivoting moves for what is mostly a pool of underpowered Pokemon, which immediately comes at an inherent opportunity cost larger than almost every other move (not allowed to run Substitute, any boosting move, on the set; or in an ideal interpretation not even allowed to use the move if an opponent boosts your stats).

Again, adding drypass isn't gonna make those underperforming mons any better. This is what I mean by arbitrary. When you go down this kind of road, you open up a whole can of worms as well.

The point is not to nerf Baton Pass. It's to allow DryPass, a thing that simply exists to switch out a Pokemon to another; pivoting. DryPass is nothing like a Baton Pass strategy, as it is basically just using

You are nerfing BP the move. Stripping it of what makes it itself, and basically turning it into a completely different move in practice.

 

[ant4456]

No one claimed it was. The point is drypassing required an extremely arbitrary set of rules to enforce, and realistically most Pokemon won't use it commonly if at all. Like examples you gave



Sylveon is fringe as is, and scream tail is strapped for slots and passive enough already. It wouldn't really have room for it most of the time.



Bans don't happen just to make a playstyle better. Balance is struggling for a number of reasons and allowing drypass of all things is not going to suddenly fix it.



Again, adding drypass isn't gonna make those underperforming mons any better. This is what I mean by arbitrary. When you go down this kind of road, you open up a whole can of worms as well.



You are nerfing BP the move. Stripping it of what makes it itself, and basically turning it into a completely different move in practice.

I disagree that it wouldn't be a net positive for the game, but I'm not gonna die on this hill so w/e

It's not like I go to bed saying "Wow DryPass would solve the metagame!!!" lol, I just think it would be cool, which is why I initially made it only one part of a post

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I disagree that it wouldn't be a net positive for the game, but I'm not gonna die on this hill so w/e

It's not like I go to bed saying "Wow DryPass would solve the metagame!!!" lol, I just think it would be cool, which is why I initially made it only one part of a post

the problem with drypass isn't that it would be uncompetitive, or broken, or a net negative for the game. i actually agree that drypass has the potential to open up new strategies and possibly allow for a more balanced metagame. but i still disagree that it should be allowed, on the basis that it would be horrible to try and enforce. here's some of the ways i can think of to theoretically enforce only drypass and why i believe they wouldn't work in practice:

• complex clause: would require banning baton pass in conjunction with every stat-raising move and ability, plus substitute, and possibly also ingrain, aqua ring, focus energy, and a host of other things. that's a lot of effort and we already tried complex clauses for bp multiple times with no success
• modding it so baton pass doesn't pass anything: there's no precedent. sleep clause was only modded in like that for convenience and because there's precedent from the actual games. also because of consistent community and council support for keeping sleep moves, which baton pass doesn't have anymore
• modding it so baton pass can't be selected if you have a raised stat or sub or whatever: on the face of it, this seems more efficient and enforceable than option 1 while being less invasive than option 2. but on the flip side, this is still modding without precedent and it's still overly complex
• some other fourth method: there's a chance that some simpler solution exists out there that no one's discovered yet. who knows?

basically, nobody wants to keep drypass enough that they would go through all the effort to try and balance it

 

[`ShadowTwo]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1645203236314308609

Typhlosion arrived in April, 14th

 

[Mega Breloom]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1645203236314308609

Typhlosion arrived in April, 14th

Typhloshion itself won't have much impact in the meta IMO, but considering before it was Samurrot so the next one should be a grass starter. Serperior and Venusaur both sound like exciting additions to the meta. Serp with actual coverage thanks to tera and Venusaur on sun (but sadly losing weather ball) might be super good.

 

[Eeveeto]

Typhloshion itself won't have much impact in the meta IMO, but considering before it was Samurrot so the next one should be a grass starter. Serperior and Venusaur both sound like exciting additions to the meta. Serp with actual coverage thanks to tera and Venusaur on sun (but sadly losing weather ball) might be super good.

I wish you were right (it would mean Chesnaught), but unfortunately it doesn,t mean anything. They released Decidueye, Samurott and Typhlosion, all the Legends Arceus Starters (though not the Hisuian forms). It could really be any Mon (hopefully Alolan Muk).

 

[ZannaBianca]

Typhloshion itself won't have much impact in the meta IMO, but considering before it was Samurrot so the next one should be a grass starter. Serperior and Venusaur both sound like exciting additions to the meta. Serp with actual coverage thanks to tera and Venusaur on sun (but sadly losing weather ball) might be super good.

Venusaur can still potentially go for Tera Blast Fire, which while being less practical than Weather Ball it is actually 20% stronger and more versatile being usable outside of sun

 

[ant4456]

holy shit a starter 7 star tera raid??? we never saw this fucking coming omg

iirc serperior isn't in HOME so it's gonna be a while if it is coming

but we are missing delphox (bad), inteleon (bad), rillaboom (mega nerfed), and the hisui variants

 

[`ShadowTwo]

Chesnaught?

 

[`ShadowTwo]

Okay, what do you think will be the main changes in the meta after the release of HOME? What will be the new trends (especially in the set of Pokémon already present)? Personally, I would see more Ice Spinner on Great Tusk against Flying type (Landorus, Thundurus, Tornadus, Enamorus and Zapdos), more Teams Rain, the return of Rege-Core or the even more powerful Hazards Game, so Boots more present.

 

[Lectrys]

Okay, what do you think will be the main changes in the meta after the release of HOME? What will be the new trends (especially in the set of Pokémon already present)? Personally, I would see more Ice Spinner on Great Tusk against Flying type (Landorus, Thundurus, Tornadus, Enamorus and Zapdos), more Teams Rain, the return of Rege-Core or the even more powerful Hazards Game, so Boots more present.

I personally consider Enamorus to be dangerous enough that Great Tusk will need to run Ice Spinner (or Stone Edge, I guess) for her. ...So 2 Attacks Great Tusk now looks embarrassing against Air Balloon Gholdengo, Enamorus, or even both depending on the 2 attacks used.

Sun teams will likely go down (further) in the first few post-HOME weeks, so people stop complaining about Walking Wake as often.

If HOME allows transfer moves, Lando-T takes back his position of usage king of OU thanks to actually learning a pivot move and also getting a better overall defensive typing than Great Tusk.

Volcarona Tera types narrow because Heatran is back.

 

[Red Raven]

I just hope home doesn't allow transfer moves again. It would be very annoying if this generation turns into another dumbass toxic or knock off spam

 

[awyp]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1645203236314308609

Typhlosion arrived in April, 14th

Flash Fire Typhlosion with Choice Specs Eruption hitting under the Sun might be fun because there's only 1 Fire Immunity mon.

 

[pika pal]

Flash Fire Typhlosion with Choice Specs Eruption hitting under the Sun might be fun because there's only 1 Fire Immunity mon.

Funny as it is to speculate, I feel like this is just Charizard with more Steps.

Which means you run both because both are "win more" Wallbreakers, so now you will win 2x more.

 

[Eeveeto]

In fact, the one and only value I see for Typhlosion is Flash Fire. It hits weaker than Zard, but it allows some protection against opposing Sun. Just by Typhlosion existing, Zard, Iron Moth and Scovillain can't Spam fire moves mindlessly anymore.

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

I just hope home doesn't allow transfer moves again. It would be very annoying if this generation turns into another dumbass toxic or knock off spam

If we don't get transfer moves back, this generation will remain nothing more than a hyper-offense hellhole like it has been since release. "Toxic and knock off spam" is such a stupid thing to complain about. I'm somewhat convinced the people who really bitch about that kind of thing just don't play the game in the same way that people who bitch about Evasion clause/sleep clause/species clause don't play the game.

This meta is in desperate need of more defoggers/spinners, ways to pressure the multitude of broken sweepers, and defensive checks to more mons. Without it we're stuck in our current situation where there's very little reason to play BO or Balance when you can just instawin half your games (and instalose the other half) with some cheesy, matchup-fishing hyper offense team.

 

[Mega Breloom]

I wish you were right (it would mean Chesnaught), but unfortunately it doesn,t mean anything. They released Decidueye, Samurott and Typhlosion, all the Legends Arceus Starters (though not the Hisuian forms). It could really be any Mon (hopefully Alolan Muk).

You are right, my bad. I guess other option is Inceneroar, but I doubt it will return until home or else VGC players are going to burn Game Freak offices.

If HOME allows transfer moves, Lando-T takes back his position of usage king of OU thanks to actually learning a pivot move and also getting a better overall defensive typing than Great Tusk

In NatDex Tusk and Lando have the same usage, even if NatDex and OU are different it is a decent indicator of how things can go for some mons with Home. Without transfer moves Lando will be in akward spot, it still gets intimidate, a good typing and good stats but becomes way more limited. Can see it as a suicide lead for HO or scarf pivot, but idk, booster energy mons outspeeding scarf and having more potential leads like Meow or Glimm make me think that Lando's days as the main pilar or Ou are gone if doesn't get transfer moves. Still will be a good mon for Ou of course, but doesn't seem like it will be that influentail. I could be wrong though.

 

[taziathegreat]

I don’t know but I I have the feeling that balance, bulky offense and to a lesser degree stall will be bigger winners than people think. While we’re getting incredibly powerful offensive threats, the defensive threats we’re getting like muk, the galar slow twins, Cress, heatran , goodra, volcanion and Zapdos. Are all fairly unique defensive options the meta hasn’t had.

 

[Magcargo]

You are right, my bad. I guess other option is Inceneroar, but I doubt it will return until home or else VGC players are going to burn Game Freak offices.



In NatDex Tusk and Lando have the same usage, even if NatDex and OU are different it is a decent indicator of how things can go for some mons with Home. Without transfer moves Lando will be in akward spot, it still gets intimidate, a good typing and good stats but becomes way more limited. Can see it as a suicide lead for HO or scarf pivot, but idk, booster energy mons outspeeding scarf and having more potential leads like Meow or Glimm make me think that Lando's days as the main pilar or Ou are gone if doesn't get transfer moves. Still will be a good mon for Ou of course, but doesn't seem like it will be that influentail. I could be wrong though.

Honestly, I could see it going both ways for Lando. Losing transfer moves is a massive blow to it since it was one of the best users of Toxic and Knock Off, but on the flipside, many of its sets were largely hampered by other users of those moves too. I think boosting sets like Bulk Up will be in a much better spot since they won't be on a timer as much as before. Heck, I could see Calm Mind or special sets being good in this Meta to lure in Dondozo and Tusks w/ Grass Knot lol. Sludge Bomb could work as a pseudo utility option too to fish for poisons, albeit not as reliably as Toxic.