Out of curiosity, do you think iron leaves or h-zoroark could find a home in psyspam since the last two slots is a rapid spinner and/or secondary shell smash sweeper?After the Espathra and Chien-Pao bans the archetype looks something like this
Psychic Terrain boosts the power of Stored Power and Expanding Force, and block priority attacks against grounded users. This means that a 1% Polteageist or Armarouge can't be revenged killed by an attack like Dragonite's Extreme Speed, Kingambit's Sucker Punch or Scizor's Bullet Punch. To round up the team you usually see an extra form of hazard control such as Great Tusk, another setup sweeper such as Volcarona, or another breaker. Tera Fighting/Fairy Polteageist threatens Dark-types, with Focus Sash on it and Armarouge allowing them to take one Dark-type attack.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Pre-Wake, I was Proto: Attack on Moon (since I was a CB set and wasn't playing Sun, I'd get Proto off of opposing Sun.) With Wake in the picture, Proto: Speed is always the correct choice now.
Seeing Proto: Special Attack on opposing Wakes is just their butts hanging a vacancy sign up and my foot is looking to move in. Proto: Attack Moon isn't bad if it's Scarf, though... But Proto: Speed + Band is way better.
There is extra pressure on teambuilding when using these mons that others would not require. They may not be held back but their teams are. That's the problem - rocks is something cores and teams need to be built around which is quite nutty: the mechanic warps entire tiers and was something busted enough gamefreak actually stepped in and nerfed it.
Volcarona and Dragonite have reliable recovery. Ho-oh has regenerator. Chi-Yu didn't suffer from rocks, rocks enabled its teambreaking abilities.
If all the mechanic does is make bad mons worse why is it so influential? Rocks-weak doesn't only mean those with 4x weaknesses, plenty of things are held back by losing 1/4 on entry.
Just considering svou:
Armourouge and Ceruledge lose out on focus sash
Baxcalibur becomes more vulnerable after a glaive rush
Dragonite loses multiscale
Torkoal and Pelliper can only come in so often
The issue is that too much value is obtained from too little investment. You make the entire opposing team play around you, limit mons they can choose, what items they can wear, and negate abilities and items that rely on health. You're using one move on one mon to check a massive amount of things your opponent could potentially do.
In the current meta, sure.
I'm sorry aren't you arguing that rocks are a negative influence?
The scarier part about Ice type SR would be ground types losing a lot of health while blocking electric types. Just imagine how different the meta would be with "the bulky ground type" in every meta not being as consistent as it is now.
I prefer proto attack on both, with wake being a breaker with LO and moon a revenger/cleaner with scarf.
Yes. They're inherently broken: they give too much an advantage for one turn of setup, are too widely distributed compared to removal, and don't have the drawbacks that spikes, toxic spikes, and sticky webs do. If you want a balanced version they either need to wear off after 5-8 turns or get rid of the ridiculous type-affected damage.
Wild statement.
This was maybe an argument 15 years ago when it was first introduced but rocks aren't inherently broken simply because you can remove them with Rapid Spin and Defog. If Stealth Rocks didn't exist Flying types / Mons with Levitate would be pretty annoying. Plus on top of that you can just run Heavy-Duty Boots on everything which has been more of a controversial topic in the past.
my point still stands. Rocks are very good, but nowhere near the height of meta defining they once were. That aren’t broken, and it’s likely they never will be
I think I'll chime in here a bit. As someone who doesn't play HazardStack.pkm, and pretty much always just relies on Stealth Rock, SR is VERY powerful. Nothing in the game is immune to it (without HDB), and Pokemon of various types take reduced/additional damage from it. SR is a consistent threat to any given team, unlike Spikes or Sticky Web, which spawned the "Superman" team style from Gen 3+. (Mass Flying/Levitate Pokemon to negate Spikes/Webs threat.)
However, like with Spikes/TSpikes/Web, SR has a few flaws to it as well. We have a number of ways of removing them (Rapid Spin, Mortal Spin, Defog), and they can be no u'd back into your face (Magic Bounce). HDB on various Pokemon also helps against this, especially on your Spinners or Foggers. One more layer on top of this is any Pokemon with Magic Guard (which doesn't exist yet in Gen 9) completely ignores those hazards (even though TSpikes still poisons you, but that doesn't matter since MG prevents poison tick.)
Do I think Stealth Rock is broken? No. To call SR broken means you're unwilling to adapt to it and run a Fogger/Spinner/Bouncer. Yes, there are plenty of times where we just need to deal with the hazards because our removal is gone, but that's just Pokemon. You either played bad and lost your hazard control (speaking from experience) or the matchup was bad enough to the point that you had no control over them at all.
Seriously, we have SO many things that works as a form of hazard control.
Magic Bounce - Hatterene, Espeon
Defog - Corviknight, Talonflame, Scizor, Altaria, Lurantis (not that the last two are even relatively relevant.)
Rapid Spin - Great Tusk, Iron Treads, Quaquaval, Tsareena, Toedscruel, Donphan, god forbid you use Torkoal...
However, like with Spikes/TSpikes/Web, SR has a few flaws to it as well. We have a number of ways of removing them (Rapid Spin, Mortal Spin, Defog), and they can be no u'd back into your face (Magic Bounce). HDB on various Pokemon also helps against this, especially on your Spinners or Foggers. One more layer on top of this is any Pokemon with Magic Guard (which doesn't exist yet in Gen 9) completely ignores those hazards (even though TSpikes still poisons you, but that doesn't matter since MG prevents poison tick.)
Do I think Stealth Rock is broken? No. To call SR broken means you're unwilling to adapt to it and run a Fogger/Spinner/Bouncer. Yes, there are plenty of times where we just need to deal with the hazards because our removal is gone, but that's just Pokemon. You either played bad and lost your hazard control (speaking from experience) or the matchup was bad enough to the point that you had no control over them at all.
Seriously, we have SO many things that works as a form of hazard control.
Magic Bounce - Hatterene, Espeon
Defog - Corviknight, Talonflame, Scizor, Altaria, Lurantis (not that the last two are even relatively relevant.)
Rapid Spin - Great Tusk, Iron Treads, Quaquaval, Tsareena, Toedscruel, Donphan, god forbid you use Torkoal...
Surprised that Quaq is still low in usage even though everything suggests things are starting to go its way.
Pex falling off due to being too passive for this meta despite checking a lot of things, people realizing that anything that isn't water absorb clod gets ruined by taunt (Quaq can beat dirge and dondozo with taunt on shed teams easily.), shed tail being great, and amoonguss not being super common should do wonders for it.
Pex falling off due to being too passive for this meta despite checking a lot of things, people realizing that anything that isn't water absorb clod gets ruined by taunt (Quaq can beat dirge and dondozo with taunt on shed teams easily.), shed tail being great, and amoonguss not being super common should do wonders for it.
Part of the reason is that Quaq doesn't have good enough stats to be a sweeper, and struggles to really switch in as a utility. At BEST it can be a late game cleanup Pokemon... But it sort of gets stomped on by a lot of common threats right now.
It does appreciate shed tail though a ton, and can get around the unaware walls at least. Pex is still a concrete answer though.
Until Clod or Pex shows up and says no to it, Dragapult shows up and ignores the Sub, Garg stonewalls it post Tera, Sylveon deletes it, Washtom stonewalls it... Dragonite can just set up in its face if it isn't carrying Taunt or Ice Spinner...
Quaq also has 4MSS.
are we having fuckin rocks discourse in gen 9? seriously just run boots if you're so worried about them, it's a very very good item and you're not losing out on much especially on ceruledge, dragonite, or the bugs
Boots on Offensive Tusk feels underrated, imo. I run boots on mine and it allows it to apply immediate pressure, especially if the opponent doesn't have a Ghost to stop my spin. Then you just start chunking things.
We are always gonna discuss rocks every gen, they changed every single thing. But, I'm not in the mood for rocks, so I won't give my 2 cents today, one thing I'm gonna say tho is that Gholdengo is making this conversation worse, and I don't need to explain it
Moving on topics
Honestly, I want somebody who can sell me on Quaquaval, it gets hard walled by most defensive mons, requires a million turns to set up, and it needs covert cloak or becomes garganacl food, can sweep but needs too much support, can remove hazards but gets walled by gholdengo, it doesn't really do anything, fuck, I have had more success with Toxicroak than Quaquaval on Rain, that's how bad this thing is
There is no plan to act on entry hazards or boots at this point in time.
Is there a plan to act on either Garganacl, Walking Wake? Or both? Also, any personal opinion you have on Wake Finch
Garganacl is not a priority right now with the metagame being flipped on its head recently. The timing of everything has certainly worked against it with the recent releases, too. If you go through the timeline of SV OU thus far, it’s been impossible to fit another suspect in. I can see this changing in the future if Home is later rather than sooner though. It really depends on timing. I do not personally find Garganacl to be pressing either as there is a growing list of methods to make it a liability, but it still can be straining to other teams and should remain in the discussion.
Walking Wake is rightfully our focus atm. The metagame is still settling, but it’s undeniably the center of attention. It is likely that the council will conduct a vote as to if we do not act, suspect, or quickban. I do not have a specific date or expected outcome as it’s raw, but expect more in the near future I’d say. My guess is that if anything happens, it (and Garg) will start OU after Home regardless, but I have no guess as to what’s going to happen before Home.
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