Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Martin]

Back before Libero was released, Court Change Cinderace was extremely strong vs HO and just outright bad vs everything else if that means anything. I really don’t think it’s gonna be this awesome amazing anti-Gholdengo hazard clearance option that people want it to be, but it will be nice as an option to help counteract screens HO/teams that only have the capability to set up hazards once, assuming it isn’t blatantly broken like it was last gen now that Libero has been nerfed (not had a chance to use it yet).

 

[1LDK]

- Will-O-Wisp/High Jump Kick

I do undestand the reasoning of WoW on a fast mon but ace is kinda paper so you probably gonna get 1, and some of these mons are packing some support against that, i also belive that HJK is not that necesesary, hear me out

In OU, HJK hits for good damage Bax, the ruin mons, corv, cylizar, garga, treads, gambit, lokix, mausholds, meow, moon and ttar, from these mons, only Bax, Chi yu, Cyclizar, treads, moon and ttar are trully weak to fighting, the rest can be dealt with Pyro Ball, and either Gunk Shot or Zen Headbutt, because garga is probably gonna tera or protect, meow is faster so she can change coverage, and with HJK´s tendency to miss, it only takes one botch to just send your ass packing without doing anything

Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- Gunk Shot
- Court Change
- U-turn

This is what i have been running, you could also do Life Orb/Boots and Sd or band

One fun fact is that, if gholdengo is scarfed and locked into shadow ball, you can take 1 shadow ball, Libero Court Change, and now he is forced to switch out, is kinda funny

 

[pika pal]

One thing that I think is worth noting for Cinderace, WoW and Pyro Ball don't trigger Protean since they match its Mono-Type on hitting the field, so threatening something out with Wisp doesn't immediately remove the threat of a high BP "STAB" move on the subsequent turn. Given its extremely useful speed tier, this makes it Fire moves the easiest ones for it to click and thus something any check needs to be ready to switch into on-top of a follow up coverage.

I think Cinderace is a mon that is going to at least look appealing for the first week or two of its introduction, because its Stats and Coverage, with or without Court Change, makes it a major kick-in-the-shins to standard HO teams with stuff like Grimmsnarl Screens or Suicide/Non-Repeating Hazard setters like Glimmora. Its match-up against other styles like BO and Balance is tenuous at best (Stall options this gen seem like they'd eat it despite the general nerfs to the style's moves), but it definitely likes the style it plays best with being the first thing most ladder players thing of right now.

Maybe once Chi-Yu goes and Bulk actually means something again it'll have a more humble performance, but a "Hazard Control" Pokemon that dunks on Gholdengo is still a niche to be had (not to mention just a mon that help deal with this jerk), and in general Court Change is the hardest Hazard-stop move to block while discouraging mindless (emphasis on mindless) Spike Stacking without an insurance plan for them.

 

[Ryolain]

Compared to the impact of adding a Pokemon into the metagame during a suspect, we simply can't know what, if any impact that Pokemon will have because we haven't played with it yet.

How is this a reason in favor of adding it to the tier during a suspect? If we don’t know what impact it could have, isn’t that a reason to err on the side of caution and not add it? Surely if something like Yveltal suddenly became available the council wouldn’t just shrug and say they must abide by GF’s releases and their previously stated policy of not doing QBs during suspects. The point is that the council did make a judgment call that Ace would likely be fine in OU given the nerf to Libero and other changes to the meta. Finch’s post even says as much:

And Cinderace is obviously not something worthy of starting in Ubers.

That is clearly a decision being actively made to drop Ace from its previous gen tier based on the state of the meta and the assumption that it likely won’t have a major impact. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that decision, but I don’t see the need to act as though it wasn’t a decision nor to accuse the people pointing this out of making logical fallacies. Like I said, I appreciate the desire to have a standard set of rules you can always point to in order to justify decisions, but sometimes I feel the council twists themselves in knots to act like every decision conforms to those policies perfectly. It’s fine to just say you made a judgment call, no need to play dumb about it and act like there was no possible way they could’ve done anything differently.

That all being said, I’m curious if there is precedent for a former Uber being both announced *and* released during the course of a suspect, particularly one that’s such a borderline case and received a significant nerf between generations. I would imagine in most cases Ubers would be coming from events announced much farther in advance than a week, so the suspect could be planned around them.

 

[LadyLynn]

Also Body Press on this thing with that much Defense is gonna be one big nuke that anything weak to fighting just can't switch into at all, and I think it could maybe put KIngambit in a difficult position since it might not even be able to switch in at all against Avalugg

Bit slow on this reply, but just so you know: Snow does not boost Body Press damage.

It's rather unintuitive, but it seems like the only Defense alterations Body Press is affected by are defense stage changes like Iron Defense: any other Defense alterations do nothing.

 

[kosecant]

Bit slow on this reply, but just so you know: Snow does not boost Body Press damage.

It's rather unintuitive, but it seems like the only Defense alterations Body Press is affected by are defense stage changes like Iron Defense: any other Defense alterations do nothing.

And strangely enough, choice band also increases the damage of body press iirc. It’s simultaneously the coolest and jankiest move added to SS lol

 

[Yarvy]

And strangely enough, choice band also increases the damage of body press iirc. It’s simultaneously the coolest and jankiest move added to SS lol

That truly makes no sense, but good to know

 

[MasterPlayer]

CB Defensive Avalugg with Iron Defense when? Because this might have potential

 

[Finchinator]

CB Defensive Avalugg with Iron Defense when? Because this might have potential

Choice Band with Iron Defense…?

 

[Fancy1]

Choice Band with Iron Defense…?

one day we’ll understand their genius

 

[Athyestic]

Choice Band with Iron Defense…?

It's Magic Room time

More seriously I've been trying to build about the aforementioned Magic Room for like a month and I have yet to get results lol, it's funny but incredibly bad and unreliable

 

[Komodo_Drogo]

Honestly think people are making removing hazards seem a bit more difficult than it is in practice, between great tusk, iron treads, glimmora, and other less successful spinners (hoping shed tail is banned instead of cyclizar but it's unlikely) it seems harder to actually keep them up for a good bit of time. Removing them completely with defog however has become a pain because of the presence of gholdengo (Definitely needs a suspect) and tera providing either coverage or a bump in power to pressure defoggers. Unless there's dlc or ghold gets banned I don't think it'll change much this gen, which is unfortunate. Meta shifting so heavily to offense after gen 8 where it was more difficult to make progress is really frustrating in general.

 

[Endrism]

Since Cinderace is released, I wanna do a little rundown of the protean starters we currently have in the game and show some pros and cons.

VS
STATS
80 - HP - 76
116 - ATK - 110
75 - DEF - 70
65 - SPA - 81
75 - SPD - 70
119 - SPE - 123

Despite Meowscarada's higher speed, Cinderace clearly wins the first round on stats. That special attack stat win is actually a big deficient for Meowscarada because it will never use that stat, because of this Cinderace hits harder and is bulkier all at the cost of 4 speed.

TYPING

VS

/

DEFENSIVELY
0 - 4x WEAK - 1
3 - 2x WEAK - 6
6 - 2x RESIST - 6
0 - 4x RESIST - 0

OFFENSIVELY
4 - STRONG - 5
10 - NEUTRAL - 13
4 - WEAK - 0
0 - IMMUNE - 0

It looked like Cinderace was going to be the clear winner, but Meowscarada pulled out the perfect coverage card. The combination of grass and dark typing means no single type can resist its strong STAB attacks. Obviously certain dual typings change this, but it makes it more difficult to find a good enough combo to stop it. The only pokemon that resist its combo is Chi-Yu, Lokix, Hydreigon, Iron Jugulis and itself. However with Libero and Protean, the offensive stats don't matter as much since changing their types is what they do. Although with the nerf to the abilities, it definitely matters more than it used to. Overall I see their typings as a draw.

MOVEPOOL


Viable Moves: (Could be used on any moveset)
Pyro Ball, High Jump Kick, Gunk Shot, U-turn, Sucker Punch, Zen Headbutt.
Situational Moves: (Only needed to pull off a strat or specific coverage, but still usable.)
Iron Head, Court Change, Acrobatics, Trailblaze, Bulk Up, Will-o-Wisp



Viable Moves: (Could be used on any moveset)
Flower Trick, Knock Off, Play Rough, Sucker Punch, Thunder Punch, U-turn
Situational Moves: (Only needed to pull off a strat or specific coverage, but still usable.)
Hone Claws, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Trick, Brick Break, Acrobatics, Quick Attack

Interestingly enough, I think Meowscarada actually wins here. Pyro Ball + High Jump Kick is deadly, but Flower Trick always critting can hit through things like ID Garganacl, Curse Dondozo and Screens bringing much more value than Pyro Ball. Being able to become a Fairy type at will is ALWAYS a plus, and a much better set of status moves enabling strats like Scarf/BandTrick and even using Spikes/TSpikes as a fourth move on forced swaps like Gren used to do. A backup priority move that isn't Sucker Punch with Quick Attack for extra revenge killing capabilities could even have some use.

Which means our score at the end is...

1 - 1 - 1

It's a draw. Which was an expected outcome since both have their uses. Meowscarada may be way weaker defensively, but it can utilize things like Play Rough to close that gap. Higher speed and better offensive typing also help, but Cinderace has a higher attack stat and even hazard control with Court Change. Both are generally looking to be good wallbreakers/cleaners in the meta, and I am very excited to watch these 2 clean people's clocks. Remember to like and subscribe for more epic pokemon content​

 

[Finchinator]

Cinderace will be quite a bit better, Imo, but it won’t directly outclass Meow either as it has a unique offensive profile. I think both will be viable and that’s refreshing for the metagame

 

[Endrism]

I think people sleep really hard on Meowscarada. It has the same kind of move as the Urshifu Brothers have. An always crit move on a high attack pokemon is deadly. Especially when a choice band gets involved you can just bring it in and claim a kill or at least big chip on mons like Chi-Yu and such. I'll share a moveset that also combines a point I made in the post above. (also so it isn't a one-liner teehee)

Meowscarada @ Choice Band
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flower Trick
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Trick

Flower Trick what you can, and Trick on the things you can't. Its click click click. Banded Flower Trick hurts like hell, and when you come across something that can take the hit like Corviknight or Skeledirge, you got Knock Off or Trick to hurt them badly. Tera Grass can also make you hit just that much harder than you did before. Give it a go.

 

[Mega Breloom]

Mean to post this before but I forgot:
Dragapult @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Darts
- Substitute
- Disable
It might look awful at first glance because of the obvious flaw of being useless against fairies, but after failing two attempts to get my reqs because of Garganalc I used this and it is a fantastic counter against its usual set up set and also against sun since you can set up a sub and a free dragon dance on Torkoal an beat everyone else because of Dragapult speed.
It isn't a set that will work on every match but when it does it is powerful and even if it is a bad match up for it with several fairies it is never dead weight because it still works a spin blocker and disable can be useful to force a switch or bring a team mate safely into a pokemon that usually would lose.

 

[Turtlek]

I

I think people sleep really hard on Meowscarada. It has the same kind of move as the Urshifu Brothers have. An always crit move on a high attack pokemon is deadly. Especially when a choice band gets involved you can just bring it in and claim a kill or at least big chip on mons like Chi-Yu and such. I'll share a moveset that also combines a point I made in the post above. (also so it isn't a one-liner teehee)

Meowscarada @ Choice Band
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flower Trick
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Trick

Flower Trick what you can, and Trick on the things you can't. Its click click click. Banded Flower Trick hurts like hell, and when you come across something that can take the hit like Corviknight or Skeledirge, you got Knock Off or Trick to hurt them badly. Tera Grass can also make you hit just that much harder than you did before. Give it a go.

Wouldn’t overthrow be better?

 

[Magcargo]

I like boots Cinderace quite a bit more than Boots Meowscarada since it can use its Fire moves w/o proccing Protean, letting it still deal more damage to its checks w/ U-Turn, but Meowscarada still feels like the better Choice Band user due to its lack of an SR Weakness.

 

[awyp]

I like boots Cinderace quite a bit more than Boots Meowscarada since it can use its Fire moves w/o proccing Protean, letting it still deal more damage to its checks w/ U-Turn, but Meowscarada still feels like the better Choice Band user due to its lack of an SR Weakness.

I agree with this a lot, I feel like Meowscarda is a better choiced user and Cinderace is more better as a Heavy-Duty Boots Pivoter. Obviously they can switch their preferred item vice-versa and still be fantastic Pokémon in the OU tier.

Mean to post this before but I forgot:
Dragapult @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Darts
- Substitute
- Disable
It might look awful at first glance because of the obvious flaw of being useless against fairies, but after failing two attempts to get my reqs because of Garganalc I used this and it is a fantastic counter against its usual set up set and also against sun since you can set up a sub and a free dragon dance on Torkoal an beat everyone else because of Dragapult speed.
It isn't a set that will work on every match but when it does it is powerful and even if it is a bad match up for it with several fairies it is never dead weight because it still works a spin blocker and disable can be useful to force a switch or bring a team mate safely into a pokemon that usually would lose.

This is a cool set but most Garganacls are running Fairy Tera Type so it gets walled but I really like the concept, I would maybe go with Phantom Force over Dragon Darts? If you replace Disable with Phantom Force the set works fine to be honest.

 

[Moyashi]

In gen 8 hazards dont mean shit, its regen + hdb + tp(allows free defogs) spam on every team so court change never was even needed on 99% of teams because quite frankly in gen 8 you can ignore the hazard play altogether lol.

Bluntly putting thia but if you think this is how gen8 was, you weren't playing the tier enough.

As for the "court change isn't propper hazard control" it literally is, like the opponent is inclined not to sr or spike or both because of that option, especially since getting off hazards in the first place is super difficult. Glimmora/chomp gholdengo stack teams WILL have to change up their strats because getting all those 2-4 turns wasted and then those turns being turned against you with little options (since hdb spam is not feasible due to power creep) is game changing. It swaps the hazards but literally all you have to do is not set up hazards on the opposing side. At WORST after a court change they spin them off which gives you a turn of momentum, or they decide to try to get hazards back up which gives momentum to you too. In this gen it is insanely easy to get large punishes given an oppurrunity due to lack of defensive flying types and power creep, there is almost 0 way court change isn't meta changing and I'd argue its better than defog and spin as hazard control due to the volatality of hazards in gen 9.

For it to be proper "hazard control you can't be putting up hazards on the opponent's side as you acknowledge, but not doing so means your opponent isn't getting chipped by them while you will be. This is not at all ideal, and their stealth rock weak threats will be getting turns without punishment if that is the case when they come in. Frankly your post just sort of worships CC as some auto option to always get hazards off your side, but Ace literally invites Great Tusk in who can spin those hazards away. The opponent can put up hazards again later, and if Ace goes down what are you gonna do?

The most useful applications will be against HO screens teams and glimmora teams. But teams with hazard setters who can lay them multiple times...

 

[Morkal]

I really think that people are sleeping on the potential of Heavy-Duty Boots combined with Court Change on Cinderace. Not only does it switch hazards from your side to theirs, but you can additionally steal Grimmsnarl's screens / Abomasnow's Aurora Veil. Simply seeing Cinderace in Team Preview puts pressure on your opponent, making them be more cautious with their switches and plays. In addition to both offensive and support pressure that Cinderace's stats / other moves exude.

 

[MasterPlayer]

Does anyone know what can safely switch into Shell Smash Polteageist? Because Stored Power on this thing hits incredibly hard (Apart from Dark Types)

 

[Endrism]

I

Wouldn’t overthrow be better?

Meowscarada will barely ever get Overgrow off since it is frail, but Protean can at least give STAB to U-turn for a little extra damage on dark types.

 

[Turtlek]

Meowscarada will barely ever get Overgrow off since it is frail, but Protean can at least give STAB to U-turn for a little extra damage on dark types.

Yes, but it allows you to have stab after tricking and EQs are very common so it’s not that hard getting in range

 

[Athyestic]

Does anyone know what can safely switch into Shell Smash Polteageist? Because Stored Power on this thing hits incredibly hard (Apart from Dark Types)

>Asks how to switchin to a Pokemon
>Intentionally excludes their direct counters
Additionally, it's incredibly priority weak and can be revenged by any priority move that isn't QA or Mach Punch. And base 70 isn't that fast, some scarfers can outspeed it.