Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Rothj]

Could it be possible that Cyclizar is one of the factors keeping people from using passive mons in higher parts of the ladder?

There's so many factors. Right now, no one can clear hazards because of gholdengo without great tusk. That's one thing. Secondly, no teleport on most defensive mons outside of slowking(who dies to all the dark types). Passive teams really struggle with annihilape and iron valiant as well. A lot weren't running psyshock but now they all are so clodsire can't wall it anymore. People adopted chi-yu with choice specs which clodsire can't wall anymore. Dragonite is difficult to wall without dondonzo. iron hands is difficult to wall without amoongus. The fact that all the defensive mons lost toxic outside of the poisons ones and scald was taken away. Plus almost everything is pretty offensively powerful.

So if you want to actually change the metagame, you'd have to go down the list and just start banning everything. But gholdengo would change things. Even with doing all of that, stall mons like blissey are never going to be as good as they were because of no teleport, less pp on softboiled, and no toxic. So walling stuff is just more difficult in general right now than in past gens.

 

[DaemonChop]

There's so many factors. Right now, no one can clear hazards because of gholdengo without great tusk. That's one thing. Secondly, no teleport on most defensive mons outside of slowking(who dies to all the dark types). Passive teams really struggle with annihilape and iron valiant as well. A lot weren't running psyshock but now they all are so clodsire can't wall it anymore. People adopted chi-yu with choice specs which clodsire can't wall anymore. Dragonite is difficult to wall without dondonzo. iron hands is difficult to wall without amoongus. The fact that all the defensive mons lost toxic outside of the poisons ones and scald was taken away. Plus almost everything is pretty offensively powerful.

So if you want to actually change the metagame, you'd have to go down the list and just start banning everything. But gholdengo would change things. Even with doing all of that, stall mons like blissey are never going to be as good as they were because of no teleport, less pp on softboiled, and no toxic. So walling stuff is just more difficult in general right now than in past gens.

I don't think our main goal is to change the metagame - personally, my main goal is to not have to deal with a nigh-invulnerable Dragonite that can reach +2 for free and blow up the fuckin tri state area with Tera Normal Extreme Speed

 

[ayevon]

http://pucko.info/pokeStats?format=gen9ou&time=day

I would also suggest for people in this thread to log into the client and actually watch matches over 1500 or 1600 so they can get a better understanding of how the game is actually being played at high ratings.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1727578030-lnwzfe9fz1ba5i0fjrk1o0t97bq6tm8pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1727560912-ea5yoseulilwynccousy4iinuh44k0vpw

 

[Rothj]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1727578030-lnwzfe9fz1ba5i0fjrk1o0t97bq6tm8pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1727560912-ea5yoseulilwynccousy4iinuh44k0vpw

Well, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about honestly. The highest I've gotten to is like 1500 this gen. These were just my own perspectives/experiences.

 

[alephgalactus]

edit: The counterplay is to not use passive mons. Right now the meta seems to be using a lot of bulky pokemon that have some way to hit back hard. Basically, if everything can break sub then it's not that useful of a pokemon.

So your “counterplay” is to abandon an entire playstyle (that I admittedly don’t like to watch or play against but should at least have some place in the meta)? I think you and I may have somewhat of a different understanding of what is and isn’t healthy for the metagame.

 

[Rothj]

So your “counterplay” is to abandon an entire playstyle (that I admittedly don’t like to watch or play against but should at least have some place in the meta)? I think you and I may have somewhat of a different understanding of what is and isn’t healthy for the metagame.

I think my main argument is that if you want to save pure stall there's a lot of things you'd have to fix. The fact that gamefreak massively changed the move pool on a lot of them is a big factor. Some of the new ones we got are some of the best walls ever.

 

[Local Dog]

How good do you guys think armarouge and ceruledge are? I've been looking here recently and saw that both had usage above the OU cutoff.

From my admittedly limited experience, these two aren't that threatening and frail, so I'm surprised they got a lot of usage.

Side note, I really like using Scizor right now! Priority is very useful in this metagame and Bullet Punch is great for revenge killing.

Very inconsistent but they can work and do well when they do

Definitely not OU proper but I can see a niche for them, albeit one that is a bit gimmicky

 

[DaemonChop]

I think my main argument is that if you want to save pure stall there's a lot of things you'd have to fix. The fact that gamefreak massively changed the move pool on a lot of them is a big factor. Some of the new ones we got are some of the best walls ever.

...wait, who on this thread is trying to save pure stall? Cyclizar isn't even the main reason stall is dead, it punishes Balance and BO pretty equally hard

 

[Rothj]

...wait, who on this thread is trying to save pure stall? Cyclizar isn't even the main reason stall is dead, it punishes Balance and BO pretty equally hard

The person I was replying to was seeming to imply that when I said the main counterplay is to "not use passive mons" that I was suggesting to abandon a playstyle. I don't know if they specifically meant pure stall.

 

[MrE]

Well, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about honestly. The highest I've gotten to is like 1500 this gen. These were just my own perspectives/experiences.

Ayevon is playing high ladder, so if shed tail wasn't broken and proper counter play was possible you'd expect that he wouldn't be able to get set up the way that he did to win the game. Granted sample size of 2 isn't great, but games with shed tail run like this more often than not.

It's super busted, no fun to play against and needs banning.

 

[awyp]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1727578030-lnwzfe9fz1ba5i0fjrk1o0t97bq6tm8pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1727560912-ea5yoseulilwynccousy4iinuh44k0vpw

Thank you for showing people are actually using Cyclizar on higher ratings. It is not a Pokémon that can be easily beat that's why, it is being abused to a certain extent.

Rothjs you also said that Cyclizar's usage isn't high? It's the 11th most used Pokémon in the metagame, which is pretty popular, when Melmetal got tested 2 months ago Melmetal in the month of September was the 10th most used OU Pokémon in the tier, does that mean it didn't deserve to get suspect tested?

 

[Vastus]

Those usage stats are somewhat interesting. Generally you'd expect winrates to trend more towards 50 at higher usage, and there's no really insane outliers, but Chi-Yu sitting at 53.3% WR with a solid 31% usage is still really high. Murder fish is truly on top of the meta right now.

 

[Rothj]

Those usage stats are somewhat interesting. Generally you'd expect winrates to trend more towards 50 at higher usage, and there's no really insane outliers, but Chi-Yu sitting at 53.3% WR with a solid 31% usage is still really high. Murder fish is truly on top of the meta right now.

It changes a lot by day. If you look at weekly it evens out more... but yeah chi-yu is doing well today for some reason. Stats I linked were for today only. Meta is still changing rapidly... for example rotom wash wasn't seeing much useage but is now seeing a ton of play. It would have been uu a week ago.

 

[DaemonChop]

Speaking of those stats... yeah, if anyone still thinks Flutter Mane wasn't really *that* bad, it got banned two days in and is STILL at 13% monthly usage on all teams

 

[DanGaetta]

Overall, I thinks this is the moment of arcanine to shine, do you guys thinks that inceroar would be back soon (dlc) or we are in a gen without him?

 

[MrE]

It changes a lot by day. If you look at weekly it evens out more... but yeah chi-yu is doing well today for some reason. Stats I linked were for today only. Meta is still changing rapidly... for example rotom wash wasn't seeing much useage but is now seeing a ton of play. It would have been uu a week ago.

Rotom got wrecked by bundle which was everywhere

 

[Bakugames]

I hope cyclizar gets banned just so i dont have to read "The opposing Cyclizar put out a substitute. Foe sends out Espathra! Espathra used protect! Espathra used calm mind! Espathra used calm mind! Espath-" Ever again

 

[alephgalactus]

I hope cyclizar gets banned just so i dont have to read "The opposing Cyclizar put out a substitute. Foe sends out Espathra! Espathra used protect! Espathra used calm mind! Espathra used calm mind! Espath-" Ever again

I’m personally tired of “The substitute took damage for the opposing Dragonite!”

 

[100%NoobJuice]

i know shed tail is strong, but cyclazar itself isnt that good. What's going on with all this cyclzar bad ban talk. It's not the best user of shed tail. That would go to Blissey. It only has a base 70 hp. I know you could just invest in hp. It's okay otherwise.

 

[Finchinator]

i know shed tail is strong, but cyclazar itself isnt that good. What's going on with all this cyclzar bad ban talk. It's not the best user of shed tail. That would go to Blissey. It only has a base 70 hp. I know you could just invest in hp. It's okay otherwise.

Blissey does not learn Shed Tail.

 

[100%NoobJuice]

I know, it was theoretical

 

[alephgalactus]

I know, it was theoretical

This isn’t really the thread for that.

However, since it is Thursday, you can go here and theorymon all you want!

 

[Garance]

Hi! I was wondering because we're on the 1st of December, we will have usage stats for these 15 days today you think ?

 

[Kizaco]

Okay, saying it doesn't have a win rate of 50% when it has a win rate of 48.62% is kind of funny lmfao

Also, win rate doesn't matter if a lot of people are using the mon, which at 17%, they are.

Also also, I promise that people on this thread know how the game is played. Instead of saying shit like that, can you detail why you don't think Cyclizar is broken beyond usage stats? What's your general gameplan to deal with it? I am curious, because I feel like I struggle a lot with it and would love advice if you have any.

Wouldn’t a win rate below 50% imply it’s not a good mon? Because 50% is what you would expect from your average mon? If anything a 48.62 percent win rate implies it’s kind of bad

 

[BolTingBlazie]

i know shed tail is strong, but cyclazar itself isnt that good. What's going on with all this cyclzar bad ban talk. It's not the best user of shed tail. That would go to Blissey. It only has a base 70 hp. I know you could just invest in hp. It's okay otherwise.

And if we were to ban cyclizar people would just use orthworm to pass a sub, yes it is harder to get one set up on orthworm since its stupid slow and easily revenge killed, but the reward is so high that trading an orthworm for a sub is usually worth it in most cases since sometimes all it takes is passing a sub to a set up sweeper who cannot usually set them up safely without shed tail to win a game. I do not think banning cyclizar will solve the problematic nature of shed tail, as shed tail makes set up sweeping teammates way more problematic and uncompetitive than they should be normally.