Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

I think almost everyone who plays these tiers accepts that some forms of RNG just have to go in order for a reasonably competitive metagame to be maintained. That's why I really don't like these "RNG is just part of Pokemon/Pokemon shouldn't be Chess"-type arguments. Yeah, we know that. The discussion isn't "ban all RNG mechanics" vs "allow all RNG mechanics"; a line has to be drawn and the argument should be where we draw it.
IMO, the line that needs to be drawn should be around what RNG causes significant lack of competitiveness even when information is symmetrical between two players. For Scald, Discharge, and that general family of moves, both players are aware of the Pokemon most likely to carry those moves and can account for them accordingly, either in the teambuilder or battle. In this case, those kind of move RNGs are very well on the "acceptable RNG" side of the line. Moves like Spore sit firmly in this camp because information about Spore's users and methods to mitigate its effectiveness is symmetrical to both players. Both players know that either Amoonguss or Breloom (or any mushroom Pokemon) will carry Spore almost 100%, and if either Pokemon is relevant in their respective metagames, team builders can account for some method of mitigation.

King's Rock, Quick Claw, and other "Luck Items" straddle close to that line. The 10% effect chance provides the user with informational advantage over their opponent, but that advantage inconsistently generates a large enough momentum swing in a battle, especially in higher-rated matchups (except the Evasion items). There are cases where the item + Pokemon creates a problematic situation (Sand Veil Garchomp, Cloyster, Quick Claw Ursaluna), but I think the Pokemon should be assessed before the item.

The point about Pokemon + item creating hard-to-counterplay situations extends to the other side of the line: RNG elements that are hard to play around even when information is (mostly) symmetrical to both players. The first example I think of is ParaSwagger, especially with Prankster users. Before tiering action was taken in Gen V, there was a high likelihood that seeing Thundurus + Sableye on the same team meant that you were gonna run into ParaSwagger shenanigans. Even if you accounted for that in teambuilding to some degree, the opponent mostly had the advantage by manipulating in-game probabilities to generate free turns. The similar argument can be extended to the Pokemon + item mentioned earlier. Gen IV Garchomps under Sand were always Sand Veil, but you knowing that information couldn't help you better stop Garchomp from gaining a massive momentum swing.

With all that said, Hypnosis Darkrai (and by extention IV) straddles that line. The set of lead Hypnosis Darkrai has initial effectiveness because most people did not initially prepare for it (informational assymetry). Now that this issue is now highly publicized across the community, most builders will be keeping Hypnosis Darkrai in mind when building teams. If Darkrai is still generating a net positive for its user even with the set being public knowledge, then the TLs will need to assess Darkrai only. FTR, this is not assessing sleep as a mechanic or a commentary on Sleep Clause because I think that the effectiveness of Sleep as an RNG-generated advantage largely depends on the user (e.g. Spore Amoonguss vs. Hypnosis Darkrai vs. something random like Sing Clefable).
 
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my question to the "only ban hypnosis" and "ban strong mons with sleep" camps is this: if an uncompetitive mechanic is acceptable with a small distribution of otherwise-unviable mons, why should we keep minimize banned? nothing good gets it since they took it away from the clefable and blissey lines. why don't we just ban double team instead? the answer is because the mechanic of evasion is uncompetitive in and of itself, just like the mechanic of sleep
That's an interesting argument. Do you think we should ban Revival Blessing now because it would be uncompetitive with better distribution? Or does distribution play a factor in how uncompetitive something is? Game Freak seems to go out of its way to keep Spore off fast Pokemon, for example.

I actually think the situation is closer to Baton Pass. You have a wide-distribution move/mechanic where some users are healthy, most are benign or underwhelming, and some are broken. How many are broken is the crux of the matter.

With Baton Pass, you could cobble together a FullPass team out of any number of Baton Pass abusers, many of which were otherwise mediocre. There were so many abusers that it made no sense to ban them individually. And Baton Pass itself was flexible enough that attempts to keep it in check with complex bans kept failing, creating a treadmill of ever-more-restrictive bans.

Sleep has two abusers, Darkrai and Iron Valiant, that are uniquely equipped to take advantage of it, thanks to their speed, power, and coverage. (Red Card Amoonguss depends on an RNG item, so it probably merits its own debate.) The question is whether banning Darkrai and Iron Valiant will be enough, or whether other sleep abusers will rise up to take their place.

Tiering policy suggests we at least test Darkrai and Iron Valiant before moving on sleep as a whole. Right now, there is no proof that keeping sleep will lead to a treadmill of bans, only conjecture. Under Sleep Clause, Sleep has been stable since Gen 6. There was no Baton Pass-esque series of complex bans to salvage the mechanic; the first one worked. For now, Darkrai and Iron Valiant appear to be the anomalies.

It might be the case that sleep is new tech that makes all kinds of setup sweepers broken. If other sleep abusers step in to fill the void left by Darkrai and Iron Valiant, that would be strong evidence that sleep is the broken element and deserves a ban. But absent its top two abusers, sleep could just fade away as the novelty wears off, the same way MonoClaw did. This topic deserves systematic testing, not a gut reaction.

TL;DR: Take action on Darkrai and Iron Valiant, if anything. Don't move on sleep unless it proves to be a problem without them.
 
my question to the "only ban hypnosis" and "ban strong mons with sleep" camps is this: if an uncompetitive mechanic is acceptable with a small distribution of otherwise-unviable mons, why should we keep minimize banned? nothing good gets it since they took it away from the clefable and blissey lines. why don't we just ban double team instead? the answer is because the mechanic of evasion is uncompetitive in and of itself, just like the mechanic of sleep
There’s also the fact that I have not seen the “ban Hypnosis” crowd refute anything having to do with Lilligant-H or Red Card Amoonguss, neither of which use Hypnosis but both of which are considered both viable and uncompetitive.
 
There’s also the fact that I have not seen the “ban Hypnosis” crowd refute anything having to do with Lilligant-H or Red Card Amoonguss, neither of which use Hypnosis but both of which are considered both viable and uncompetitive.
Um you're forgetting "no, Amoonguss is perfectly balanced now because of the mod we have implemented, 'inaccurate sleep moves are banned except spore is allowed, provided you only use it on one Pokémon at a time' is a perfectly reasonable clause, just sack a Mon bro, just use grass types on every team bro"
 
What I wonder is...

What is the real reason behind the need to act against sleep or sleep clause?

Is it because its outdated?
Is it because sleep moves are broken?
Is it because Iron Valiant and Darkrai are broken?
Is it because hypnosis been so luck dependant is unreliable and makes match ups and games incredibly luck dependant and coinflip swings?

To face a problem, we first need to know what the actual problem is.

Ive seen so many different arguments Im kinda lost as to why.

Banning the broken moves is always and option. Personally if Darkrai is broken so is Valiant imo, and both have counter play.

Hope I explained myself properly, english isnt my first language.
 
that's because "ban hypnosis" manages to be the worst argument in the litany of bad arguments in favour of keeping sleep clause mod. it's actually impressive how i still haven't read one single good argument for keeping it (shoutout to "this is the new point in BIG BAN's agenda!!!"), even though it's the status quo, which is usually the easier position to defend

forget specific users of sleep moves for a moment - what does the status condition sleep add to the metagame that is healthy? "it makes certain mons more viable" is not an argument that is or should be considered by tiering policy, by the way. king's rock would make skill link mons more viable, but nobody complains about that ban lol.
 
What I wonder is...

What is the real reason behind the need to act against sleep or sleep clause?

Is it because its outdated?
Is it because sleep moves are broken?
Is it because Iron Valiant and Darkrai are broken?
Is it because hypnosis been so luck dependant is unreliable and makes match ups and games incredibly luck dependant and coinflip swings?

To face a problem, we first need to know what the actual problem is.

Ive seen so many different arguments Im kinda lost as to why.

Banning the broken moves is always and option. Personally if Darkrai is broken so is Valiant imo, and both have counter play.

Hope I explained myself properly, english isnt my first language.
I'm not sure which one it actually is, but I think discussion on Sleep / Darkrai has reached its meaningful conclusion in this thread. Council opened "Views from the Council" regarding Sleep, and any and all points that non-badged users could make have already been made there. As a thread reader, it gets kind of tiresome seeing the same 5 - 6 people talking in circles about Sleep / Darkrai / etc. with no discussion on the metagame itself.

TL;DR: Can we please talk about something else?
 
Back to bitching about Kingambit and Gholdengo it is! Seriously how is that mustache having goober still top dog of the format?
Gambit remains the only reliable ghost switchin in the tier that isn’t too passive. Splashable on almost every common archetype; balance, BO, HO… It’s harder to pull off a late game sweep nowadays but that’s because every team is hyper prepared for it. But the defensive utility + offensive pressure it provides is still unmatched.
 

CobsonYaoi

formerly Holesum420
Is Venusaur good in this meta on sun teams? Here's a set I've whipped up:

Venusaur @ Wise Glasses
Ability: Chlorophyll
Tera Type: ??? (Can't decide between Grass, Fire, or Ground)
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Weather Ball
- Earth Power
- Growth
 
Is Venusaur good in this meta on sun teams? Here's a set I've whipped up:

Venusaur @ Wise Glasses
Ability: Chlorophyll
Tera Type: ??? (Can't decide between Grass, Fire, or Ground)
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Weather Ball
- Earth Power
- Growth
Life Orb will get you further than Wise Glasses, especially since you can heal with Giga Drain. I also like Tera Fire myself since it fixes bad defensive matchups as well as giving Weather Ball STAB.
 
Is Venusaur good in this meta on sun teams? Here's a set I've whipped up:

Venusaur @ Wise Glasses
Ability: Chlorophyll
Tera Type: ??? (Can't decide between Grass, Fire, or Ground)
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Weather Ball
- Earth Power
- Growth
Venusaur is alright, but not only is it limited to sun teams, there are a lot of sun abusers. The paradox beasts, moon, tusk, h-lilligant and others I am probably forgetting all compete for spots on sun teams, which are restricted to 5 slots due to the obligatory torkoal. Most are better than Venusaur due to not being ultra-reliant on sun to function. Life orb is also the better option as it gives a lot more power.
 
Is Venusaur good in this meta on sun teams? Here's a set I've whipped up:

Venusaur @ Wise Glasses
Ability: Chlorophyll
Tera Type: ??? (Can't decide between Grass, Fire, or Ground)
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Weather Ball
- Earth Power
- Growth
You forgot Sleep Powder. Gotta abuse it while you can ;)

Unfortunately you’re pretty much forced to run max speed to outpace Booster Valiant, but you’re still slower than Iron Boulder and Scarf Darkrai which really hampers Venusaur’s viability. Generally speaking you’re probably better off using H-Liligant as your Chloro sweeper/cleaner.
 
After a few days already, what are the feelings about Pecharunt?

Personally I think its an amazing swepper in webs/against slower teams with the Nasty Plot sets, its extremly hard to wall, specially with Tera Blast fighting/and or some other team mates spreading paralisis. It really benefits him.

As a wall its also really good as it takes care of some threats and is scary to handle by opponents. When invested it can tank some very hard hitters like they are nothing.

Malignant chain overall is an amazing move, and currently the best poison move in the game by far. Its biggest downside is its only 8 pp which against some teams might be a problem long term. Also the 50% toxic + confusion, sometimes might not trigger when you REALLY need it to trigger which is annoying.

And all this while allowing for excellent pivoting with Parting Short, personally I think its gonna be a common OU citizen, just not as popular as others because there are shit ton of other options.
 
TL;DR: Can we please talk about something else?
I'm maybe the last person who plays the tier to discover/accept this, but wow is Nasty Plot Deo-S good. Psycho Boost is so damn strong that it makes up for the iffy SpA without boosts and also forces switches that help you get those boosts in the first place.

The thing that really makes it, for me, is that there's no great reason to go max speed on offensive sets (since you don't need to avoid a taunt from opposing lead Deoxyses). 56+ Spe outruns +1 Tusk or 104+ outruns +1 Gouging Fire. Either way, you've got a bunch of leftover EVs to sink into HP, which offers a massive boost to longevity without missing out on anything particularly relevant other than +1 Volc (who you don't want any part of) and +1 Garchomp (whose relevance is debatable).

I've been running Psycho Boost+BoltBeam with Tera Electric and it just puts in work against offensive and fat teams alike.
 
Fully Defensive Hex Pecharunt has been doing work for me. Paired it with Incineroar and Rillaboom, and the double Parting-Turn Squad got me back to the 1700's after tanking a bit with Hypnosis Gengar.

It's shocking what Pecharunt can live:

252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pecharunt: 152-180 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Meowscarada Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pecharunt: 146-174 (38.5 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

With Grassy Terrain support to neuter Earthquake Pecharunt eats most Physical hits and retaliate with a guaranteed Toxic that also confuses these mons with already high attack stats. It sucks that the #1 Mon of the tier hard walls you, but hey what are teammates for!
 

Pluim

formerly goodra4thewin
Bit late, but going to put my last thoughts into the Sleep debate.

1) "Sleep is RNG based and still uncompetitive if we ban Darkria and Iron Valiant"
Like many other mechanics in pokemon, yes it is RNG based. However, the broken abusers aside (which can punish being asleep and snowball even into sometimes a 6-0), the rest of the pokemon with sleep moves are unable to be as punishing, and therefore the effect of their sleep moves aren't nearly enough to be overly uncompetitive. It would be put on the same level as strategies such as Thunder Wave Dragapult, which yes, have RNG in it but ultimately isn't going to 6-0 you just because you didn't wake up fast.

Pokemon such as Spore Breloom are about as uncompetitive as Thunder Wave Dragapult, and no where near the levels of Darkrai and Iron Valiant and therefore shouldn't be unable to use Spore unless we also look at banning crits, para, freeze etc.

2) "Sleep Clause Mod's existence shows that sleep is broken
Again, potentially yes, but on certain pokemon eg, Vivilion who is fast and has fairly accurate Sleep Powder. In AG where there isn't Sleep Clause Mod, Vivillion is used a lot. While AG and OU are different tiers, so things are slightly different, being in a tier without Sleep Clause Mod will likely only have a few pokemon that abuse Sleep uncompetitively. If Sleep Clause Mod is decided to be removed and it turns out pokemon like Breloom are broken then this argument falls flat and sleep should be looked at as a whole.

Either way, we have to decide whether we want to keep the Mod or not, if we do then I suggest banning the 2 broken users. If we get rid of the mod and Sleep is universally broken we can ban that.

3) "Ban Hypnosis"
Hypnosis is not broken on A-Ninetails and other Hypnosis users. It is purely the speed and power of Darkrai and Valiant that push it over the edge. Is also similar to Annihilape and Rage Fist, when it is clearly the latter that is broken.

Conclusion: Darkrai and Iron Valiant are clearly the potentially problematic abusers sleep and should be looked at first before sleep as a whole. If then people are using Vivillion and Hisui-Lilligant sleep can be looked at.
 
Tiering policy suggests we at least test Darkrai and Iron Valiant before moving on sleep as a whole.
tiering policy suggests that sleep should have been banned from the get-go. there's never been a logical reason for sleep to exist besides "we keep everything that isn't broken, unhealthy, or uncompetitive", and sleep has always been uncompetitive. hell, it's starting to bleed over into "broken" and "unhealthy" too
 
Back to bitching about Kingambit and Gholdengo it is! Seriously how is that mustache having goober still top dog of the format?
I'm up for a quick ban for both, and then a possible suspect test later on. I'm tired of these two jerks committing war crimes since day 1, and the constant coping that people keep making for both. There's TWO BIG reasons why Great Tusk keeps floating around #1 or #2 in usage and people need to stop pretending otherwise.
 
I'll just say if the only thing keeping sleep from being broken is a clause that can not be fully replicated on cart, perhaps instead of keeping the exception to the "replicate on cart" rule and banning 2 pokemon, why not be consistent and just ban sleep?

Aside from that dumpsterfire of an argument that will honestly probably lead nowhere. I am against any sort of quick ban right now, the meta is stable enough we can reasonable wait for suspect tests to do their thing.
 

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