Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

I tried to cook Dragapult stall, but it didn’t work. Here’s the star:

Tankpult (Dragapult) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Cursed Body
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Breaking Swipe
- Fly
- Will-O-Wisp
- Substitute

Breaking Swipe lowers opponent attack, making Pult take hits better. Sub avoids status and walls Gliscor + Clod, and PP stalls. Fly is a pp stall move as well, and deals decent damage (A critical hit! The opposing Clefable lost 28.4% of its HP!). Will-O-Wisp makes Pult even more physically bulky, synergizing well with the rest of the moveset.

The team: https://pokepast.es/f9e24aaa80eac307

Don’t use this.
 
Assuming the Council has any kind of shared directional push, I'd personally vouch for them to just, uh, take it. People have talked about the Volcarona QB to death, but I feel like by and large the pushes made for specific pokemon to be more heavily looked at or outright banned have near universally made the tier better than it was before that push for action. I agree the ban threshold is daunting right now, but I feel like trusting the process and going through with tests is the way to go rather than fear mongering and doomsaying about how generation sux and nothing will ever get banned. If tests do keep happening and a majority really can never be reached on like anything, other tools are on the table such as the Kokoloko Method that can be explored.
 

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Assuming the Council has any kind of shared directional push, I'd personally vouch for them to just, uh, take it. People have talked about the Volcarona QB to death, but I feel like by and large the pushes made for specific pokemon to be more heavily looked at or outright banned have near universally made the tier better than it was before that push for action. I agree the ban threshold is daunting right now, but I feel like trusting the process and going through with tests is the way to go rather than fear mongering and doomsaying about how generation sux and nothing will ever get banned. If tests do keep happening and a majority really can never be reached on like anything, other tools are on the table such as the Kokoloko Method that can be explored.
Think about it this way: any quickban this far into the metagame (5 months) would need extreme circumstance and substantial support.

Kokoloko method is at least a half dozen individual quickbans at the same time. Justifying this is a virtual impossibility. That ship has sailed months back. It’s not feasible or realistic, even if I wanted it to be it wouldn’t happen.
 
Think about it this way: any quickban this far into the metagame (5 months) would need extreme circumstance and substantial support.

Kokoloko method is at least a half dozen individual quickbans at the same time. Justifying this is a virtual impossibility. That ship has sailed months back. It’s not feasible or realistic, even if I wanted it to be it wouldn’t happen.
For what its worth, the suggestion was only if things truly are left to rot and stagnate from a democratic lack of action while scores and sentiment don't show real improvement. Probably should have made that more clear. I'm more of the mind that adaptation and metagame trend changes, even with extremely few/no bans, will cause the tier to slowly level out for the most part.

Edit: I'd also be surprised if there was truly NOTHING that pushed past the ban threshold even after months. Surely if things keep failing people will see the light eventually :Clueless:
 
Is there a reason why Misty Surge Galar Weezing doesn't see much usage?

I've been running Misty Surge on Galar Weezing for a while now and it's amazing how well it does against a variety of playstyles.

It has a good match up against stall that rely on Dondozo as their main physical wall do to Misty Terrain preventing Rest.
It also does well vs.Trick Room teams that run Ursaluna do to it not being able to activate Guts while Terrain is active
It also comes in handy vs. The Past Paradox legendary trio, allowing for a tarastalized Weezing or its teammates to tank their powerful Dragon type attacks much better
 
Is there a reason why Misty Surge Galar Weezing doesn't see much usage?

I've been running Misty Surge on Galar Weezing for a while now and it's amazing how well it does against a variety of playstyles.

It has a good match up against stall that rely on Dondozo as their main physical wall do to Misty Terrain preventing Rest.
It also does well vs.Trick Room teams that run Ursaluna do to it not being able to activate Guts while Terrain is active
It also comes in handy vs. The Past Paradox legendary trio, allowing for a tarastalized Weezing or its teammates to tank their powerful Dragon type attacks much better
Its typing is interesting, and so is its movepool, although it lacks recovery beyond Pain Split.
My guess is just because of powercreep, a Pokemon with 490 base stat total doesn't have much of a chance in this insane meta.
Its weakness to Ground (when not using Levitate) and Steel reminds us of Great Tusk, Gholdengo and Kingambit, 3 of the best and most used Pokémon.
 
Is there a reason why Misty Surge Galar Weezing doesn't see much usage?

I've been running Misty Surge on Galar Weezing for a while now and it's amazing how well it does against a variety of playstyles.

It has a good match up against stall that rely on Dondozo as their main physical wall do to Misty Terrain preventing Rest.
It also does well vs.Trick Room teams that run Ursaluna do to it not being able to activate Guts while Terrain is active
It also comes in handy vs. The Past Paradox legendary trio, allowing for a tarastalized Weezing or its teammates to tank their powerful Dragon type attacks much better
The opportunity cost is too high. Neutralizing gas is generally seen as the main reason to use gweezing due to unblockable defog and forcing progress against gliscor/regen cores among other things. Levitate is also good because ground moves are in almost every team and so it flips a lot of bad matchups into favorable ones. If you're running Misty Surge, then you're not running either of these. Worse, you're actively nerfing your G-weezing by running Misty Surge because you can't wisp or toxic grounded mons and Defog removes your own terrain, so you have to run smth like 2 attacks pain split taunt which is meh, also if you run Misty Surge you generally want Terrain Extender as well, but then you make your g-weezing weak to hazards. Misty Surge has its uses and is not a useless ability, for one it farms dragapult and has great synergy with bulky rona and maaaybe Hawlucha, but it's really niche and not worth it for most teams.
 
I tried to cook Dragapult stall, but it didn’t work. Here’s the star:

Tankpult (Dragapult) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Cursed Body
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Breaking Swipe
- Fly
- Will-O-Wisp
- Substitute

Breaking Swipe lowers opponent attack, making Pult take hits better. Sub avoids status and walls Gliscor + Clod, and PP stalls. Fly is a pp stall move as well, and deals decent damage (A critical hit! The opposing Clefable lost 28.4% of its HP!). Will-O-Wisp makes Pult even more physically bulky, synergizing well with the rest of the moveset.

The team: https://pokepast.es/f9e24aaa80eac307

Don’t use this.
Dragonite stall on the other hand, that's the actual shit. Roost+haze+dragon tail is really good utility for a stall team. Combine that with multiscale which can mean dragonite can emergency check anything, and its a pretty good mon.
Dragapult just doesn't have the defenses to be a stall mon. Fly is an interesting move, though phantom force is better in that regard. Also, do not use garg on stall. Its just not a good mon on stall, in the stall bible they literally tell you to not use it.
 
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Imma be real: leading SV OU has been a trip lately. No matter what is acted on or purposefully left untouched, the majority of people are going to find themselves upset with something relevant to the metagame. You could ask a dozen top players (including people on the council) what the problem with the metagame is and likely come up with close to a dozen unique answers ranging from nothing at all to wanting a lot of bans. There’s the people in the middle, myself included, who just want one or two things to go now, too.

Something I’ve accepted since I took over last generation is you can’t please everyone and, if you try to do that, you’re just going to end up disappointed. So while I listen to everything people say, I do it mostly to inform myself and potentially even share with the council or fuel justifications, not necessarily to dictate every last decision as it’s impossible to make decisions that jive with every informed perspective - they have impossible overlap far more often than not when you take a decent sample after all.

Tera is a great example of this as plenty of good players still want it acted on, but the majority clearly doesn’t and it feels like the writing is on the wall when it comes to a full ban given what we have seen. Some people accept this premise and focus on the next steps to make the current situation more competitive/balanced while certain others act out of protest and spite, voting to not ban anything ever again until course changes, spamming the survey with extreme scores for every option, and haha reacting posts before they can even read them fully. It’s an interesting range and just taking it all in from afar is kinda reflective of actual society in a lot of ways. I’ve always found that interesting about how people handle stuff.

Similar to Tera as a whole, a lot of Pokemon prompt a scattered range of responses from players, too. A lot of guys want us to overhaul stuff and quickban various Pokemon, which is really extreme and wouldn’t even be possible as nothing has council support for a quickban. Others want us to leave the tier as is and view it ideal. The reality will always find itself in the middle, which often leads to suspect tests.

Finding 60% on anything right now is really a challenge and you can make of that what you will. Personally I think it’s just due to variable beliefs and understandings of what is broken in a tier with so many options, especially with the cap for possibilities blown up with the Tera dynamic kept in mind.

Stuff like Wellspring is arguably textbook broken due to lack of good switchins, but a lot of people mention metagame context with hazards and speed tiers. Stuff like Volcarona can put an immense strain on preservation in the battle and even having sufficient measures for it in the builder, but a lot of people mention the handful of stops and metagame evolutions that can stifle it or the fact that it can only do so much within any single set. You can extend this give-and-take logic to other Pokemon like Kyurem or Dragapult as well, which people have called for action on while others have vehemently opposed action on.

I think that like just about every other generation, more of a consensus will come with more time and development, especially as the tier grows closer to a settled state. With Tera and power creep on both ends, it definitely takes longer to reach that point this generation, evidenced by prior states like DLC1. However, we will get there. Just hoping people keep an open mind in the meantime rather than being defeatist or counterproductive. Don’t think the tier is terribly far from where it needs to be and I am having fun despite some limitations.
Many apologies for my uum... venting, ranting, whatever you wanna call it. I was the guy who brought up the Kokoloko Method for OU, and I also said that I think tera should be gone (both of which caused small debates that weren't meant to be that extreme). My bad. I also said that I really enjoy Clodozo rn given its solid matchup into the meta -- specifically offensive pokes. Kyurem is a little bit annoying but tbf I'm pretty sure I also lose to Lapras in a similar vain (Freeze-Dry diff). For as long as it exists I will be anti-tera, and I have not yet fully seen the impact of Waterpon down in the low ladder of OU, but I am having some semblance of fun. That's what matters in the end, right?
 
Dragonite stall on the other hand, that's the actual shit. Roost+haze+dragon tail is really good utility for a stall team. Combine that with multiscale which can mean dragonite can emergency check anything, and its a pretty good mon.
Dragapult just doesn't have the defenses to be a stall mon. Fly is an interesting move, though phantom force is better in that regard. Also, do not use garg on stall. Its just not a good mon on stall, in the stall bible they literally tell you to not use it.
yeah I changed Garg to Clef. Also, I used Fly over Phantom Force because it has 8 more pp which is 16 more turns!!
 
I know theres been a bit of discussion over the past few pages about how only 1 style of balance is possible so id like to share a balance team that Ive been using that works every bit as well as Ting/glowking. infact heres a replay of me beating that balance with mine at about 1600 (still climbing)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2099889900

Iron Valiant @ Life Orb
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Vacuum Wave
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight
- Flamethrower

Muk @ Leftovers
Ability: Sticky Hold
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpD
Impish Nature
- Haze
- Knock Off
- Protect
- Toxic

Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Static
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
- Discharge
- Roost
- Hurricane
- U-turn

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 29 Spe
- Brave Bird
- Body Press
- U-turn
- Roost

Dondozo @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 176 Def / 84 SpD
Impish Nature
- Curse
- Wave Crash
- Rest
- Body Press

The only thing to be aware of facing is primarina/volcarona but if youre proactive and use haze muk to figure out their set without them setting up its entirely manageable. Happy laddering everyone
 
i have to wonder how floette-eternal would fare if she were dropped into the current meta. she has excellent breaking power—140 power coming off of 125 spa is marginally stronger than a walking wake draco meteor (outside of sun), and light of ruin is more spammable than most moves of an equivalent power level. maybe there should be a roomtour with her legalized, just for fun
If it actually came out in XY I could have seen it being UU or something but with the insane power creep we have now it would probably legit be PU like some other disgusting breakers that have no business being down there (looking at you hoopa)
 
I know theres been a bit of discussion over the past few pages about how only 1 style of balance is possible so id like to share a balance team that Ive been using that works every bit as well as Ting/glowking. infact heres a replay of me beating that balance with mine at about 1600 (still climbing)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2099889900

Iron Valiant @ Life Orb
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Vacuum Wave
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight
- Flamethrower

Muk @ Leftovers
Ability: Sticky Hold
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpD
Impish Nature
- Haze
- Knock Off
- Protect
- Toxic

Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Static
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
- Discharge
- Roost
- Hurricane
- U-turn

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 29 Spe
- Brave Bird
- Body Press
- U-turn
- Roost

Dondozo @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 176 Def / 84 SpD
Impish Nature
- Curse
- Wave Crash
- Rest
- Body Press

The only thing to be aware of facing is primarina/volcarona but if youre proactive and use haze muk to figure out their set without them setting up its entirely manageable. Happy laddering everyone
I love that muk, a mon that is usually trash, is genuinely good in OU. Gen 9 while it does have power creep issues, does allow for the wackiest stuff to work.
But good luck on your journey.
 
Torkoal (M) @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Fire / Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Overheat
- Stealth Rock
- Sunny Day
- Will-O-Wisp

Overheat serves as a surprise nuke, incinerating anything that isn't heavily invested or resistant / immune to it, notably Gliscor and Great Tusk. Will-O-Wisp punishes Ting-Lu leads and ensures they can't KO us with Earthquake after a Ruination. Sunny Day with minimal Speed lets us get the Sun back up against Galarian Slowking's Chilly Reception, in addition to keeping it up against anyone else trying to set their own weather.
 
Floette-Eternal would probably be RU or NUBL this generation if it were legal due to its catastrophically poor physical defense (worse than Hoopa) and signature move that has such a high cost that it'd be better to just use Moonblast. Grass/Fairy is also not a particularly great STAB combination, and its middling speed would most likely keep it under control since it'd be easy to revenge kill since it's slower than nearly 40% of mons that are RU by usage and very frail on the physical side.

For Floette-Eternal to be OU-viable in Gen 10, it would need a buff of sorts, like its signature move no longer doing 50% recoil or some other movepool buff.
 
Floette-Eternal would probably be RU or NUBL this generation if it were legal due to its catastrophically poor physical defense (worse than Hoopa) and signature move that has such a high cost that it'd be better to just use Moonblast. Grass/Fairy is also not a particularly great STAB combination, and its middling speed would most likely keep it under control since it'd be easy to revenge kill since it's slower than nearly 40% of mons that are RU by usage and very frail on the physical side.

For Floette-Eternal to be OU-viable in Gen 10, it would need a buff of sorts, like its signature move no longer doing 50% recoil or some other movepool buff.
If it actually came out in XY I could have seen it being UU or something but with the insane power creep we have now it would probably legit be PU like some other disgusting breakers that have no business being down there (looking at you hoopa)
I think people are underestimating fairy type. also its defense is not worse than hoopa? this is shaky territory but bulbapedia even suggests that it was meant to learn thousand waves, not sure how that makes sense but if it did we're looking at a pokemon that has recovery, trapping, and the best typing in the game. Imagine a pokemon that can viably trap kyurem to pave way for gliscor for example. all hearsay but its better than it gets credit for
 
Can I just say, but fuck sub calm mind suicune. Despite the fact I have like 4 answers to it on my stall team, its still annoying as fuck to play against. I would happily want this mon banned, because it is so irritating to deal with.

(this is more me just ranting, I have faced three in a row, why is it popular on low ladder. For reference, I'm using my alt to grind up a cinderace stall team.)
 
I know theres been a bit of discussion over the past few pages about how only 1 style of balance is possible so id like to share a balance team that Ive been using that works every bit as well as Ting/glowking. infact heres a replay of me beating that balance with mine at about 1600 (still climbing)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2099889900

Iron Valiant @ Life Orb
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Vacuum Wave
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight
- Flamethrower

Muk @ Leftovers
Ability: Sticky Hold
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpD
Impish Nature
- Haze
- Knock Off
- Protect
- Toxic

Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Static
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
- Discharge
- Roost
- Hurricane
- U-turn

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 29 Spe
- Brave Bird
- Body Press
- U-turn
- Roost

Dondozo @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 176 Def / 84 SpD
Impish Nature
- Curse
- Wave Crash
- Rest
- Body Press

The only thing to be aware of facing is primarina/volcarona but if youre proactive and use haze muk to figure out their set without them setting up its entirely manageable. Happy laddering everyone
Nice team, but I would call this Semi stall rather than balance. Five defensive mons plus a fast revenge killer/cleaner is pretty much the textbook definition of semi stall.
 
Nice team, but I would call this Semi stall rather than balance. Five defensive mons plus a fast revenge killer/cleaner is the textbook definition of semi stall.
The clefable set is a lot more offensive, it uses life orb and calm mind. While there are some aspects of stall in there, I think balance is fair to call it, though if there is something between semi-stall and balance, this is it.
 
Some people accept this premise and focus on the next steps to make the current situation more competitive/balanced while certain others act out of protest and spite, voting to not ban anything ever again until course changes, spamming the survey with extreme scores for every option, and haha reacting posts before they can even read them fully.
I just want to point out the irony of several people laughing at this post.

On a more serious note, the laughing emoji seems to be used for everything from humor, to taunting BM, to maybe a simple dislike button since we don't really have one. The only other option for a dislike would be angry, which I find doesn't fit too often. Maybe a more neutral disagree type reaction might be good to add?

There are certain folks who put a laughing reaction on every post with an opinion they disagree with for things like Tera or whatever mon someone thinks should be banned. We have seen this for both sides of the pro and anti-Tera crowd and both sides of pretty much every single borderline pokemon that has been brought up. Sometimes it is even user specific. It's pretty easy to tell when it is targeted. Not that I would personally do anything about it.

Is there a reason why Misty Surge Galar Weezing doesn't see much usage?

I've been running Misty Surge on Galar Weezing for a while now and it's amazing how well it does against a variety of playstyles.

It has a good match up against stall that rely on Dondozo as their main physical wall do to Misty Terrain preventing Rest.
It also does well vs.Trick Room teams that run Ursaluna do to it not being able to activate Guts while Terrain is active
It also comes in handy vs. The Past Paradox legendary trio, allowing for a tarastalized Weezing or its teammates to tank their powerful Dragon type attacks much better
G-Weezing is niche even with more conventional sets. In general, its other abilities tend to be better and Misty Terrain tends to be the weakest of the Terrain types. But I would love to see it work. What do you tend to run with it?

You make a really interesting point about Dondozo's rest. Maybe you could build a counter team where you use Misty Terrain to weaken the Dozo so it can't beat things it normally counters?

Another thing that could be important is how dragon heavy the meta is. Maybe you have a multi-dragon team and use that to Stuff like Tera Dragon Volc also may be easier to handle if you have more dragons on the team.

I have been experimenting with Psychic Seed Gouging Fire since many tend to deal with it specially. But it gets status thrown at it a lot. I wonder if Misty Seed Gouging Fire might be a bit more dangerous.
 
G-Weezing is niche even with more conventional sets. In general, its other abilities tend to be better and Misty Terrain tends to be the weakest of the Terrain types. But I would love to see it work. What do you tend to run with it?

You make a really interesting point about Dondozo's rest. Maybe you could build a counter team where you use Misty Terrain to weaken the Dozo so it can't beat things it normally counters?

Another thing that could be important is how dragon heavy the meta is. Maybe you have a multi-dragon team and use that to Stuff like Tera Dragon Volc also may be easier to handle if you have more dragons on the team.

I have been experimenting with Psychic Seed Gouging Fire since many tend to deal with it specially. But it gets status thrown at it a lot. I wonder if Misty Seed Gouging Fire might be a bit more dangerous.
I think the main reason why M-Terrain is so niche is because nothing overtly benefits from it. Sure, everything besides gliscor and maybe dondozo doesn't like getting statused, but that's not enough of a benefit to want to use it over other playstyles. Grassy terrain for example means that ground weak mons can circumvate their weakness, such as heatran, while psychic terrain means that fast and frail mons don't have to worry about priority, such as iron boulder (though its trash even if its on p-terrain). It means that you yourself can't use status moves, which is a big deal. Compare that to psychic and grassy terrain, where while the negatives of using them are decent, there are alternatives (extremely fast mons and other ground moves respectively), misty terrain doesn't have an alternative to it. Plus, it means that one whole type can't use its stab moves effectively. The only dragons I can think of in OU that don't commonly run dragon stab are dragonite, roaring moon and maybe gouging fire. Everything else doesn't benefit a lot from the reduced dragon damage. You've also got the unburden users, but they benefit from every terrain.
Also, the only move that gets a buff in misty terrain kills yourself and is just as powerful as explosion, despite the fact that explosion doesn't need secondary conditions.
TLDR, you can't as easily get around the negatives of it, not as much specifically benefits from it and other terrains are better.
 
Regarding Misty Terrain: supporting a teammate sweeper is nice but the downside is that, well… you have to run Gweezing. Status-less Gweezing.

If the ability was featured on an otherwise OU viable mon, we’d start seeing Misty Terrain teams pop up. For example, imagine if a mon like Primarina got Misty Terrain. It could support teammates while actually carrying its own weight thanks to a good typing and stats.

wait a minute…
 
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