Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[Conflux123]

Yeah you are wrong. Dynamax was banned in December of 2019 and SS were released in November of 2019.

Ok got it. This is what I want for the forum, people not yelling at other people for a mistake.

 

[Conflux123]

The real enemies were Unaware mons we made along the way.
But for real, who tf said unaware was banworthy? I guess they want to make the metagame even worse.

For real, I guess they must have hated stall, which is extremely difficult to build right now, btw.

 

[Conflux123]

hopefully the suspect goes up either tonight or sometime tomorrow cuz i want gouging fire gone so badly. bulky DD variants are pure cancer and offensive DD/choice band sets are unwallable if you aren't running dachsbun

I agree, I hate those breaking swipe sets with a passion.

 

[Conflux123]

The gouging suspect better result in a ban, I want to stop being forced into a strong water resist on balance, only for it to get 2HKOed.

 

[Anchor9]

Conflux123 , please don’t quadruple post. Just respond to everyone in the same post.

 

[BobbyHill]

I firmly believe that with enough pratice and teambuilding, anything can be used in an OU match. I've used things from registeel, to dachsbun, to magnezone, to garticuno, to the legendary beasts. Heck, I've used lick on a mon and it was amazing. If something like cacturne which has never had a niche in OU outside of Gen 3 can be used and be great, I think that shows how diverse the metagame is.
You just need to know how to build around that mon. This metagame is both extremely restricting on teambuilding, but also the most expressive there is, if you get what I mean.

This is especially the case with Tera. Any Mon can become viable when you can catch your opponent by surprise. One of the best (and at times worst) things about Tera/this meta.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

For real, I guess they must have hated stall, which is extremely difficult to build right now, btw.

is it? i feel like stall would be easier to build because all its teams follow the same structure: blissey + dozo + clod + regen mon + knock absorber + sixth thing that isn't actually a stallmon

 

[EpicGuy321]

is it? i feel like stall would be easier to build because all its teams follow the same structure: blissey + dozo + clod + regen mon + knock absorber + sixth thing that isn't actually a stallmon

The sixth thing is usually a defogger like Talonflame or Corv, which are kinda stallmons

 

[Heatranator]

The sixth thing is usually a defogger like Talonflame or Corv, which are kinda stallmons

Either that or you run two knock absorbers and 4 HDB users. That's what I've been running.

 

[Conflux123]

is it? i feel like stall would be easier to build because all its teams follow the same structure: blissey + dozo + clod + regen mon + knock absorber + sixth thing that isn't actually a stallmon

That’s just copying another team, authentically building an actual stall team is immensely difficult with the insane amount of offensive Pokémon in the meta, time to bust out utility umbrella dozo ig lol.

 

[Heatranator]

Darkrai @ Damp Rock
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rain Dance
- Thunder
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
Darkrai @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Drain Punch
- Thunder
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Bomb
Two different darkrai sets that I thought could be interesting. The first could be used to negate opposing weather and allow darkrai to potentially deal with mons it couldn't such as waterpon and hamurott. It's most likely bad, but why not for the fun of it. The second set is much more interesting. With these four moves, dakrai can decimate any stall team, barring any thunder misses and clodsire. Drain punch allows it to deal with blissey quite effectively. It's a really interesting set, as bad dreams means that dondozo can't rest against you, which I remembered it had as an ability when I faced a darkrai.
I think darkrai is underexplored, but what sets of darkrai do think could be effective on darkrai?

 

[weirdo faye]

Sash, mid def typing, too squishy to setup on anything otherwise when everything in ou so strong nowadays, 'nastyplot' on forced switches, every monkey has gotten so used to staying in with all their mons and atking whatever is in front of their face cos of all the cheese setup offense running around, u cant tell if the person ur playing vs will just stay in and kill you if u try to setup on a 'favorable matchup'. Not worth using it

 

[darkmoonbeam]

Conflux123 , please don’t quadruple post. Just respond to everyone in the same post.

just scroll down =s

 

[Bold School]

Recently, I stated that I was inspired to try Roaring Moon with a defensive boosting item. So I now have a preliminary Grassy Terrain team. In the process, I also realized that Grassy Seed was perfect to fix my failed Body Press Raging Bolt idea for awhile back. It's maybe a bit strange to have two Grassy Seed dragons on the same team, but this is a test team anyways. It seems to work ok in my first few games with it. It's still way too early to make any real conclusions, but preliminarily I have good news and bad news.

The good news is the Raging Bolt set actually seems good. Because Body Press counts as a physical attack with no attack investment, you can get both extra bulk and a mixed set at the same time. Max Defense Body Press with a defense boost hits a lot of things the most opponents won't expect, like Blissey, Ting-Lu, Iron Treads, and Heatran. Tera Fighting is actually decent defensively as well, except for needing to be careful with fairy STAB. It is kind of neat. Maybe an experienced player would see the Grassy Seed as a giveaway if the set became popular enough. It still seems pretty decent.

The bad news is Roaring Moon seems broken. I mean, we already knew that. But Grassy Seed and no bulk investment allows you to set up in more things faces than you really should be able to, particularly with Tera being an option. At this point, I don't know if the success is really due to the Grassy Seed itself or if base Moon is just that cracked. But at the very least, it lives more priority and is a bit harder to revenge kill. It's not reliant on Booster Energy to be a problem. Honestly, I feel kind of gross just using it.

Anyways, these are just my preliminary thoughts. The team and these concept needs much more testing. Normally I wouldn't post this early about it. I just really have a hard time seeing either concept washing out. Sometimes you can just tell if something will flop or be at least solid.

 

[Heatranator]

Recently, I stated that I was inspired to try Roaring Moon with a defensive boosting item. So I now have a preliminary Grassy Terrain team. In the process, I also realized that Grassy Seed was perfect to fix my failed Body Press Raging Bolt idea for awhile back. It's maybe a bit strange to have two Grassy Seed dragons on the same team, but this is a test team anyways. It seems to work ok in my first few games with it. It's still way too early to make any real conclusions, but preliminarily I have good news and bad news.

The good news is the Raging Bolt set actually seems good. Because Body Press counts as a physical attack with no attack investment, you can get both extra bulk and a mixed set at the same time. Max Defense Body Press with a defense boost hits a lot of things the most opponents won't expect, like Blissey, Ting-Lu, Iron Treads, and Heatran. Tera Fighting is actually decent defensively as well, except for needing to be careful with fairy STAB. It is kind of neat. Maybe an experienced player would see the Grassy Seed as a giveaway if the set became popular enough. It still seems pretty decent.

The bad news is Roaring Moon seems broken. I mean, we already knew that. But Grassy Seed and no bulk investment allows you to set up in more things faces than you really should be able to, particularly with Tera being an option. At this point, I don't know if the success is really due to the Grassy Seed itself or if base Moon is just that cracked. But at the very least, it lives more priority and is a bit harder to revenge kill. It's not reliant on Booster Energy to be a problem. Honestly, I feel kind of gross just using it.

Anyways, these are just my preliminary thoughts. The team and these concept needs much more testing. Normally I wouldn't post this early about it. I just really have a hard time seeing either concept washing out. Sometimes you can just tell if something will flop or be at least solid.

Just wondering, but what are you using in the fourth moveslot? I'm guessing its taunt because you can't use e-quake, but I'd like to know if its something wacky like iron head, which can be great for fairies, or stomping tantrum for that ground coverage (which I didn't know it got until I looked it up, thought it only got e-quake as coverage).
Might also try out the grassy seed moon, just to see how it goes.

 

[Bold School]

Just wondering, but what are you using in the fourth moveslot? I'm guessing its taunt because you can't use e-quake, but I'd like to know if its something wacky like iron head, which can be great for fairies, or stomping tantrum for that ground coverage (which I didn't know it got until I looked it up, thought it only got e-quake as coverage).
Might also try out the grassy seed moon, just to see how it goes.

Honestly, I tried a number of moves like Iron Head and Teras like Steel and Fairy. But I went back to Earthquake and Tera Flying Acrobatics because the coverage was better. There aren't many mons in the tier that resists Flying/Ground coverage. Basically just the metal birds since Zapdos fell off. I know Grassy Glide nerfs EQ, but it's also boosted by DD. You really only need it for mons that resist Knock Off and Acrobatics anyways. Also, Grassy Terrain is only 5 turns total because I don't run Terrain Extender. So by the time Roaring Moon comes in, there often aren't many turns left. Between that and the DD boosts, I think it's actually ok to run EQ as a coverage move on Grassy Terrain.

I may wind up changing this later, tweaking moves and EVS, and so on. But right now that is what seems the strongest.

 

[Heatranator]

Honestly, I tried a number of moves like Iron Head and Teras like Steel and Fairy. But I went back to Earthquake and Tera Flying Acrobatics because the coverage was better. There aren't many mons in the tier that resists Flying/Ground coverage. Basically just the metal birds since Zapdos fell off. I know Grassy Glide nerfs EQ, but it's also boosted by DD. You really only need it for mons that resist Knock Off and Acrobatics anyways. Also, Grassy Terrain is only 5 turns total because I don't run Terrain Extender. So by the time Roaring Moon comes in, there often aren't many turns left. Between that and the DD boosts, I think it's actually ok to run EQ as a coverage move on Grassy Terrain.

I may wind up changing this later, tweaking moves and EVS, and so on. But right now that is what seems the strongest.

Ah okay, that makes sense. On my set I'm thinking of using roost because of the defense boost and combining that with tera fairy, it could allow moon to get multiple boosts at once. Tera fairy means it resists fighting and dark, which is great for defensive utility.
I wish you well on your adventures to moon cheese.

 

[Conflux123]

Ah okay, that makes sense. On my set I'm thinking of using roost because of the defense boost and combining that with tera fairy, it could allow moon to get multiple boosts at once. Tera fairy means it resists fighting and dark, which is great for defensive utility.
I wish you well on your adventures to moon cheese.

Could this mean jaw lock roost moon could be brought back? That could be very interesting with grassy seed.

 

[Heatranator]

Could this mean jaw lock roost moon could be brought back? That could be very interesting with grassy seed.

Probably not, knock off is just a lot better and trapping yourself in could be problematic if they switch to something that counters moon. Definetely a cool idea, but probably not a good one.

 

[Conflux123]

Probably not, knock off is just a lot better and trapping yourself in could be problematic if they switch to something that counters moon. Definetely a cool idea, but probably not a good one.

Yeah it’s more of a meme idea to troll people, but it would be funny to have like max atk max def moon with jaw lock and roost to get to plus six against your poor opponent.

 

[Copland]

I'm really pleased to see the community rallying around action on Gouging Fire, but I am a bit disappointed to see Wogerpon scoring so high. Unlike something like Gouging Fire--or even Roaring Moon or Raging Bolt for that matter--it genuinely adds something unique to the tier. It's a breaker with defensive presence, a physical attacker that threatens Great Tusk, a creative mon with a flexible yet limited movepool for coverage or utility. It's very strong, but unlike other powerful mons we've seen in Gen 9, it has very exploitable weaknesses. It cannot get over 350 speed without Trailblaze, which is difficult to execute; it cannot hold Boots, leaving it vulnerable to hazard chip; and it cannot Tera into anything but Water, limiting its ability to flip matchups. Fat balance and stall are very strong right now, despite how powerful some offensive threats are, and Wogerpon is one of the few mons who can force progress against those denser structures. Answers to Rain or Walking Wake are difficult to fit on offense, but Wogerpon offers an option to deter the use of offensive water moves (or even defensive moves like Alomomola's Flip Turn). These are veritable benefits to the tier, and if we're trying to reduce the power level of OU, I'd look to boosting wincons like Gouging Fire, Volcarona, and Raging Bolt before Wogerpon.

 

[Magcargo]

I'm really pleased to see the community rallying around action on Gouging Fire, but I am a bit disappointed to see Wogerpon scoring so high. Unlike something like Gouging Fire--or even Roaring Moon or Raging Bolt for that matter--it genuinely adds something unique to the tier. It's a breaker with defensive presence, a physical attacker that threatens Great Tusk, a creative mon with a flexible yet limited movepool for coverage or utility. It's very strong, but unlike other powerful mons we've seen in Gen 9, it has very exploitable weaknesses. It cannot get over 350 speed without Trailblaze, which is difficult to execute; it cannot hold Boots, leaving it vulnerable to hazard chip; and it cannot Tera into anything but Water, limiting its ability to flip matchups. Fat balance and stall are very strong right now, despite how powerful some offensive threats are, and Wogerpon is one of the few mons who can force progress against those denser structures. Answers to Rain or Walking Wake are difficult to fit on offense, but Wogerpon offers an option to deter the use of offensive water moves (or even defensive moves like Alomomola's Flip Turn). These are veritable benefits to the tier, and if we're trying to reduce the power level of OU, I'd look to boosting wincons like Gouging Fire, Volcarona, and Raging Bolt before Wogerpon.

Disagree. Most balance structures are down bad and are locked to specific choices imo. Compared to prior gens, we do not have the diverse selection of bulky waters or grass-types this gen. Mons like Slowbro and Toxapex got nerfed to the ground, and other mons like Ferro and Tangrowth simply don't exist. This, on top of increase hazard pressure makes water-type offense too strong in general. This is part of the reason a mon like Urshifu-RS is broken here, since many of its prior answers like Helmet Toxapex (which could Knock Off its Pads), Slowbro, etc are noticably less viable due to exerting less pressure and having less options availible. However, Woger imo is even more broken that Urshifu-RS because its Grass-STAB smashes through all the commonly used Water resist on Balance like Mola and Dozo. Its really only Amoonguss that can answer it and that has a decent amount of overlap with Gking, and is similarly passive into other mons like Gambit, Gliscor, and Ghold. With sleep banned, amoongus is also notably worse now than in the past. The fact is that Woger has all the coverage in the world to beat any counterplay that arises, making it difficult to truly respond to, on top of a fantastic 350 Speed tier which is significantly better than Urshifu-RS. They gave this mon everything. Spikes, Knock Off, Play Rough, Zen Headbutt, and Superpower give this Pokemon multiple ways to completely destroy balance teams and bulky teams.

In the previous metagame, I thought that Woger was a neccessary evil because its fast Encore and typing were useful to check the dangerous Manaphy, which had limited defensive counterplay. However, now, Manaphy sees next to no use so the services as a Manaphy check aren't as needed. Furthermore, Ogerpon runs Encore far less in favor of coverage to make its number of answers even more limited, so its merely become the very thing it was meant to destroy.

At this stage of the metagame, I'd argue Urshifu-RS would be a much healthier presence, since its significantly slower, its typing has more key weaknesses (namely to Future Sight and Thunderclap) and it would provide some much needed counterplay to Kingambit and Gliscor (which are two other Pokemon players are complaining about). Furthermore, it has more 4MSS due to possessing weaker coverage than Woger. However, we have never really remotely entertained the possibility of dropping Shifu-RS back down (perhaps rightfully so, I am still biased against the way the QB Happened), so I see little merit in keeping Woger.

 

[Heatranator]

Disagree. Most balance structures are down bad and are locked to specific choices imo. Compared to prior gens, we do not have the diverse selection of bulky waters or grass-types this gen. Mons like Slowbro and Toxapex got nerfed to the ground, and other mons like Ferro and Tangrowth simply don't exist. This, on top of increase hazard pressure makes water-type offense too strong in general. This is part of the reason a mon like Urshifu-RS is broken here, since many of its prior answers like Helmet Toxapex (which could Knock Off its Pads), Slowbro, etc are noticably less viable due to exerting less pressure and having less options availible. However, Woger imo is even more broken that Urshifu-RS because its Grass-STAB smashes through all the commonly used Water resist on Balance like Mola and Dozo. Its really only Amoonguss that can answer it and that has a decent amount of overlap with Gking, and is similarly passive into other mons like Gambit, Gliscor, and Ghold. With sleep banned, amoongus is also notably worse now than in the past. The fact is that Woger has all the coverage in the world to beat any counterplay that arises, making it difficult to truly respond to, on top of a fantastic 350 Speed tier which is significantly better than Urshifu-RS. They gave this mon everything. Spikes, Knock Off, Play Rough, Zen Headbutt, and Superpower give this Pokemon multiple ways to completely destroy balance teams and bulky teams.

In the previous metagame, I thought that Woger was a neccessary evil because its fast Encore and typing were useful to check the dangerous Manaphy, which had limited defensive counterplay. However, now, Manaphy sees next to no use so the services as a Manaphy check aren't as needed. Furthermore, Ogerpon runs Encore far less in favor of coverage to make its number of answers even more limited, so its merely become the very thing it was meant to destroy.

At this stage of the metagame, I'd argue Urshifu-RS would be a much healthier presence, since its significantly slower, its typing has more key weaknesses (namely to Future Sight and Thunderclap) and it would provide some much needed counterplay to Kingambit and Gliscor (which are two other Pokemon players are complaining about). Furthermore, it has more 4MSS due to possessing weaker coverage than Woger. However, we have never really remotely entertained the possibility of dropping Shifu-RS back down (perhaps rightfully so, I am still biased against the way the QB Happened).

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 290-344 (57.5 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Rain: 122-144 (24.2 - 28.5%) -- 98.2% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Rain on a critical hit: 204-243 (40.4 - 48.2%) -- approx. 3HKO
I'm sorry, what? Like I know waterpon two hit koing dondozo is still bs, but urshifu-rs can do it on a resisted move. Hell nah, keep this thing ubers. It is so much more powerful then waterpon, I don't even know how to begin stating its brokeness.

 

[RudeLiees]

I'm tbh really surprised my the score of ogerpon-wellspring, this thing is broken, hand after tera + stab boost he become really hard to kill

Anf if he encore you on a non damaging move like roost, you are basically dead

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Corviknight: 190-224 (47.5 - 56%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (and this move dont make contact, so you dont care about rocky helmet)

He force too many tera, and with the spedef boost of téra he become nearly unkillable.

252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 69-81 (22.9 - 26.9%) -- 43.9% chance to 4HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 211-250 (70 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[RS25802580]

Disagree. Most balance structures are down bad and are locked to specific choices imo. Compared to prior gens, we do not have the diverse selection of bulky waters or grass-types this gen. Mons like Slowbro and Toxapex got nerfed to the ground, and other mons like Ferro and Tangrowth simply don't exist. This, on top of increase hazard pressure makes water-type offense too strong in general. This is part of the reason a mon like Urshifu-RS is broken here, since many of its prior answers like Helmet Toxapex (which could Knock Off its Pads), Slowbro, etc are noticably less viable due to exerting less pressure and having less options availible. However, Woger imo is even more broken that Urshifu-RS because its Grass-STAB smashes through all the commonly used Water resist on Balance like Mola and Dozo. Its really only Amoonguss that can answer it and that has a decent amount of overlap with Gking, and is similarly passive into other mons like Gambit, Gliscor, and Ghold. With sleep banned, amoongus is also notably worse now than in the past. The fact is that Woger has all the coverage in the world to beat any counterplay that arises, making it difficult to truly respond to, on top of a fantastic 350 Speed tier which is significantly better than Urshifu-RS. They gave this mon everything. Spikes, Knock Off, Play Rough, Zen Headbutt, and Superpower give this Pokemon multiple ways to completely destroy balance teams and bulky teams.

In the previous metagame, I thought that Woger was a neccessary evil because its fast Encore and typing were useful to check the dangerous Manaphy, which had limited defensive counterplay. However, now, Manaphy sees next to no use so the services as a Manaphy check aren't as needed. Furthermore, Ogerpon runs Encore far less in favor of coverage to make its number of answers even more limited, so its merely become the very thing it was meant to destroy.

At this stage of the metagame, I'd argue Urshifu-RS would be a much healthier presence, since its significantly slower, its typing has more key weaknesses (namely to Future Sight and Thunderclap) and it would provide some much needed counterplay to Kingambit and Gliscor (which are two other Pokemon players are complaining about). Furthermore, it has more 4MSS due to possessing weaker coverage than Woger. However, we have never really remotely entertained the possibility of dropping Shifu-RS back down (perhaps rightfully so, I am still biased against the way the QB Happened), so I see little merit in keeping Woger.

To be honest even Amoonguss was a pretty poor check since it got 2HKOd by a +2 Tera Water Ivy Cudgel.

The only true defensive counter for Waterpon is Tera Grass/Dragon Dondozo. Which, outside of the Waterpon matchup, puts Dozo at a disadvantage against common Waterpon partners like Weavile and Gouging Fire.

I used to be undecided about Waterpon but now I’m definitely favoring ban.

Some other fun calcs:

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 231-272 (79.3 - 93.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Rillaboom in Grassy Terrain: 315-371 (80.3 - 94.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock