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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
My man is ordering their last meal as we speak
is definitely not broken! It has an extremely viable check: Tera Fairy . Now please don’t make posts calling Kyurem broken.
This was actually touched on in one of the posts linked in the post. It went into depth about how tera hex Valiant had the best odds to beat all it's checks based purely on luck. And it also talked about how sun saw massive development when people realized it lilligant could also pull off sleep cheese, and pairing well with I think kingambit. The other thing they pointed out was how fast usage of the sleep inducing moves shot up iirc when hypnosis darkrai initially started gaining momentum. I'll try to find it again to link.
Edit: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/revisiting-the-sleep-clause-for-sv-ou.3734310/post-9932276
Rereading myself to make sure I understood it properly.
once when i was young i was at a waterpark and decided to go on the lazy river ride. it was a super crowded day, so the entire river was jam-packed full of people with inflatable tubes lining it bank to bank. we were packed in like sardines. this was all well and good until i went underwater and couldn't find a place to get back up for air. there was just a solid mass of plastic and flesh above me with no openings i could see. i must have been under for at least two solid minutes, holding my breath until it felt like my lungs were about to burst. at an age far too soon to be contemplating what the inevitable end is like, all i could think was, "this is it. this is where i die and there's nothing i can do about it."
that, my friends, is how kyurem probably feels right now
That was brought up, sure, but nothing became of it and the momentum died. Because only Darkrai had the unique traits to deal with most types of counterplay to it
damn y'all really defending sleep like it's some pinnacle of game design huh? Anyway, in this flood of negativity, thank you Finch, for your continued work on making OU a better tier
No? That’s what the sleep move is for on Valiant and Lilligant-H; it dealt with most types of counterplay to them. If anything, the two of them had BETTER two slot coverage options than Darkrai.
Sleep no more!
The council does murder sleep”- Macbethish
The entire reason the council was initially put in place was simply to save the player-base time, with the understanding the player-base would still ultimately be in control, but on things that were incredibly obvious it would save the weeks of a suspect test.
It wasn’t supposed to be “these are the smartest and best players who know better than the rest so they decide how the meta forms”. It concerns me we seem to be moving in the latter direction. A major mechanic like this changing absolutely deserved to have the community make the decision!
The council does murder sleep”- Macbethish
The entire reason the council was initially put in place was simply to save the player-base time, with the understanding the player-base would still ultimately be in control, but on things that were incredibly obvious it would save the weeks of a suspect test.
It wasn’t supposed to be “these are the smartest and best players who know better than the rest so they decide how the meta forms”. It concerns me we seem to be moving in the latter direction. A major mechanic like this changing absolutely deserved to have the community make the decision!
if a suspect test doesn’t make sense for this particular policy change, then don’t do a suspect test but a direct vote! Not a survey about should some action be taken, but a vote directly on which actions to be taken.
I fear the council’s bitterness that the community voted to keep Tera which they wanted banned has led to them purposefully not putting things to a vote when they think the vote might not go the way they want
I fear the council’s bitterness that the community voted to keep Tera which they wanted banned has led to them purposefully not putting things to a vote when they think the vote might not go the way they want
Freeze and Paralysis largely can’t be deleted without some kind of pet mod, which kind of would go against a huge part of the reason we removed sleep clause to begin with. Additionally, sleep status moves were SOLELY high-variance turn stealing RNG checks, whereas Paralysis is tied to speed control and is less impactful in terms of stealing turns on average while Freeze is solely tied to 10% chances on damaging moves and isn’t manually activatable in any way. If it was, the moves that could do so would probably just be banned like the sleep moves.
Sorry for the two replies spread across two different posts btw; since I was replying to two different posts of yours I kind of had to quote reply twice
Absolutely agreed.
I agree that sleep is problematic, and I would like to see it to be banned, but it isn't a reason to not suspect it, as it is a big change to the meta in some way no matter what (e.g. breloom become way worse). Even as if the mechanics to be broken, with nothing important else to suspect right now, it felt like more appropriate to held a proper suspect since we have the time.
Not opposed to the sleep ban at all, but definitely seems like the council has been making very arbitrary decisions for what to quick ban vs what to put to a suspect test (Volcarona absolutely comes to mind here). Would appreciate more transparency on what kind of situation results in each kind of action, because as far as I can tell right now it's completely based on the whims of the council.
Finch addressed that on Twitter here:
(There’s a reply to this Tweet too.)
I just want to preface this to say that I'm a total noob to this generation so I'm not speaking from a pro view point or someone with thousands of hours dedicated to this generation and what not but as a simple casual player of this generation
I definitely do think that a step this big was the wrong call, a suspect test and community response to this past a survey should have been the step forward for such a drastic step, and I think Finch's and other people's response to complaints are fairly awkward, naive, or immature for lack of a better word.
We're talking about a key game mechanic, a clause that has been in this competitive format for many years and many generations, only having a step like this done in Generation 5 and that's not to mention it was after the fact not in the middle of it being an active generation (no offense to the gen 5 OU players). Once talks about it began, something was going to happen and I think we all knew it seeing as how adamant many vocal people in the community council or not were in favor of sleep gone. Being in the survey to gauge a larger audience than just a vocal few was definitely a good choice by the council as it gauges a large playerbase's opinion on the matter.
And I don't want to get people confused, I don't want to go as far as say the council is doing "f democracy" but really, 3.7 out of 5 in a huge and I mean HUGE change in the meta game doesn't provoke ideas of "Hey we should turn this again to the community for a further opinion" in the council? Really? I think acting like "well y'know balance vs broken changes and we do what's best for the community based on multiple factors it's not one size fits all" is a frankly closed minded argument that fails to capture that this is the "not one size fits all" where the community should have been in charge of handling this further in such a volatile, still active, and large meta that it seems like just anything above 3.5 was just (in the eyes of the council) handing an already adamant and empowered council for banning sleep the keys to the kingdom. I apologize if I can't really catch my words or point.
What's done is done and I'm just a somewhat outsider viewing into the process, but I will say this kind of does seem like a sucky process for such a huge meta change. But hey what do I know, I barely hit 1500s in OU on a good week lol
Did you read the rest of my post? The point is that comparing Pokemon bans and larger policy movements is not ok; they are very much not the same. The former is the intended target of a suspect (alongside generation specific things like Tera/DMax) while the latter is ingrained in policy with layers of precedent and so on.
Getting reqs is a 30-50 game competency test to determine if someone is qualified to see if a Pokemon is broken or balanced. It has nothing to do with deeper tiering policy or framework, which ties back further than many of us have been around.
senorlopez
Formerly Ricardo [old]
Haha me and put me down all you like but I have no idea what you just wrote - that just sounded like a mesh of buzzwords. If you want to break that down for me feel free but if not cool.
not the newly created account to shitpost
I can understand the pokemon = decades long tiering policy argument but still I think me and others have this burning question: If you want to make the point of how serious and impactful the decision is compared to a suspect test for a pokemon, don't you think or wouldn't you understand the complaints that 3.7/5 is too low of a number to make such a decision that ties back further than many of us have been around, let alone alive?
I don't mean that as an insult just to understand the rational on why 3.7 was enough of a breaking point rather than a 4.0 or above
Suspects are to tell if the player is good enough to have an informed opinion on balance issues.
Nuking sleep is deeply tied to policy, and a suspect test doesn't say anything about whether the player is any good at policy.
The reason sleep was surveyed at all is that despite being ultimately a policy issue, if the player base was strongly against it, the OU Council would have pushed the problem off to Gen 10, just like every prior OU Council pushed it forward. A 3.7 is enough for general support, and hence, they felt free to act.
imma be fr
the community did not deserve to vote on this, i dont even think a survey was necessarily warranted but it's fine
this is a policy issue more than anything. your qualified vote because of your skill on the ladder does not necessarily mean you will have the right stance on sleep, because there is more to this than just "is sleep broken as is", "is the policy fine as is" (it isn't)
the community did not deserve to vote on this, i dont even think a survey was necessarily warranted but it's fine
this is a policy issue more than anything. your qualified vote because of your skill on the ladder does not necessarily mean you will have the right stance on sleep, because there is more to this than just "is sleep broken as is", "is the policy fine as is" (it isn't)
This really feels like the argument of "Smogon bans things they don't like!" Is actually coming true
Let's be real, it's probably they got salty due to losing to hypnosis RNG because the meta is so hazard-heavy they cannot prepare to sleep with lum berries. Also, weren't we supposed to suspect test tera after DLC2?
I'm not asking for much, just so we play by the rules they themselves created.
A massive community you also decided to ignore considering many were not aware of the ban to certain strat in lower tiers. Also, many of those don't even play on smogon anymore, maybe because of changes like this. Maybe is for the better but you can't be so sure, maybe they just want a setting more akin to console while remaining competitive.
... Not really? You can suspect test easily considering there's such things as Sleep users. Darkrai, Iron Valiant, Torkoal, Skeledirge and Amoonguss are all users of sleep, and we can indeed analyze how much impact the usage of sleep move had on our matches. Considering you had it as an option you could indeed suspect test them if you wanted to be an actual democracy.
Counterpoint: GEN 5. You did suspect test the OP sleep of that gen, because it was indeed seen as a mayor mechanic. Why gen 5 sleep is considered a mayor mechanic but gen 9 is not? This feels like revisionist behavior. It wasn't even that long ago, it was only 4 years ago when you did this, and is honestly concerning, because we don't really know what the elite players truly wanted, or if the hypnosis controversy would dial down like the quick claw one.
Also, Who said I'm fine with flinch items being quickbanned..? I would wish to discuss this with you but I'm just tired. But seriously, you should stand consistent on decisions or you will lose credibility and is just irresponsible for all of the ones who voted ban, including you.