Has anyone ever tried 
on Sun? If so, what are your thoughts?
on Sun? If so, what are your thoughts?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Suspect]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
As a fast physical attacker? Probably would be better to use gouging fire as while it is slower initially, it does a lot more damage. As a hazard denier, hatterene or torkoal is better. I don't think that cinderace would have much of a niche on sun, but the last time I used it on sun was before DLC1, so take my points with a grain of salt.Has anyone ever tried
Yeah, no, Cinder is directly outclassed as a pure physical attacker by Gouging Fire (why Chi-Two hasn't been banned from the tier yet is beyond me but I'll continue to happily click Raging Fury) and Hatterene is likely better as hazard denial, but I believe Cinder's fast utility with U-Turn, Court Change and Will-O-Wisp while not remaining passive could keep it niche on Sun, though if only your team demands it. Probably better than Scovillain or Slither Wing, but worse than Scream Tail or Volcarona.
imo If u want sun cinderace it's SD+Pyro ball+sucker punch+ HJK. imo.
I decided to try Hoopa-Unbound. I was surprised at how Hoopa-Unbound performed on the OU ladder! How badly it performed, that is. This thing is so bad. I tried out Choice Scarf, and it did 35% to a Corviknight. Literally how. This thing is base 170 SpAtk. It's like, ok against stall at least.
I faced several Kingambits while trying it out. Twice, the opponent switched Kingambit hard into my Hoopa's attack. Twice, I predicted that and clicked Focus Blast. Twice, I missed. This thing is worse than Incineroar. Incineroar can check/counter certain mons, and it does that job well. Hoopa doesn't do ANYTHING special. It's a slow glass cannon that loses to half the meta, and can't even do that much damage. It is RUBL for a reason. I'm disappointed.
I want to try out some fun off-meta mons, but there just aren't any viable ones. I tried Chesnaught, Incineroar, Zapdos-Galar, and now Hoopa, and they all aren't that great. Out of the four, Incineroar was definitely the best.
I faced several Kingambits while trying it out. Twice, the opponent switched Kingambit hard into my Hoopa's attack. Twice, I predicted that and clicked Focus Blast. Twice, I missed. This thing is worse than Incineroar. Incineroar can check/counter certain mons, and it does that job well. Hoopa doesn't do ANYTHING special. It's a slow glass cannon that loses to half the meta, and can't even do that much damage. It is RUBL for a reason. I'm disappointed.
I want to try out some fun off-meta mons, but there just aren't any viable ones. I tried Chesnaught, Incineroar, Zapdos-Galar, and now Hoopa, and they all aren't that great. Out of the four, Incineroar was definitely the best.
I didn't think of that use, but it would probably be difficult to fit on a sun team due to the already restricted teamslots needed for sun abusers. If you can find a niche for it, I'd say go for it. It's like my ludicolo on my rain team, it is extremely niche, but it has a niche and can thus fit on a team. I'd say court change is unnecessary since you have torkoal or hatterene most of the time, something like HJK or taunt could be better.
Torkoal is definitely not the better hazard controller, but you're using Torkoal anyways on Sun for the, well, sun part, so you might as well put Rapid Spin on it. That being said double hazard control with Cinderace is actually pretty solid and Cinderace does output some serious damage with Sun-boosted Pyro Balls if it needs to. I wouldn't say it's a mandatory pick by any means but if you really don't want to fight the hazard war, running Ace in the sun is definitely a solid option.
I wouldn't say Hatterene is necessarily a better stop to hazards either, there are a ton of hazard users that threaten it out and it doesn't bring a whole lot to most Sun teams, whereas Ace brings a strong Sun-boosted Fire STAB, U-Turn, and potentially priority with Sucker Punch.
Reject Focus Blast embrace Tera Fighting Blast
Gen question, how many people here prefer running it over Focus Blast? I haven't used any mons that would use it, but I personally believe the mandated Tera more than makes up for the inconsistency issues.
The main reason why I would say hatterene is better than cinder is the fact that torkoal and gouging are weak to hazards, which is especially a big deal when we are talking about torkoal since it is the setter. Cinder is definetely not a bad mon, it's just that it is not as worthwile as putting on another sun abuser in its place.
If more mons got aura sphere, I bet you they would use it 90% of the time they would use it over focus blast. Seriously, it has focus in the name, yet it is less accurate than hydro pump. The only conceivable way I think they gave it 70% accuracy over 80% is due to the sp.Defense drop, which is not worth the drop in accuracy.
Oh right, the question. Tera blast fighting is my preffered move because either 1. The mon I'm using special fighting coverage on is sweeping or 2. I'm not using fighting coverage at all because they get a better move. The only exception is pecharunt, which is to destroy gambit.
I’m pretty sure that was also said in the FSG video about accurate and innaccurate moves too. And I personally would, Focus Blast technically has a higher expected value (120*.7 = 84) and like was said in the video sometimes its a [accuracy]% chance to KO vs no chance to KO.
It really is unfortunate how small the meta is now. Ironically, the more mons that dropped in DLC 2 made there be less viable options. New mons invalidating the old ones. It's as WolfeyVGC said, "the less Pokemon in a metagame, the more viable options you can choose".
I didn't even realise that lol. For pure wallbreakers, I would say focus blast because you need that power. But for everything else, you would choose aura sphere since consistency can help over a longer game.
But every single Pokemon can Tera vs only a few can use sleep moves. Ratio wise, the amount of Pokemon that are broken because of Tera is tiny compared to sleep.
It's like claiming that Shedtail is less broken than Sleep/Tera, because it only broke 2 mons.
But most importantly, the comparison makes no sense because unlike with sleep, the community is overwhelming against a Tera ban. That's the biggest reason why one got banned but not the other. There's no inconsistencies between the two.
That and Tera is cartridge accurate, unlike sleep clause. The comparison doesn't really make sense.
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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2045239270
This game was wild bro. Not only a leavanny on the opposing team, but also ludicolo clutching the win.
This game was wild bro. Not only a leavanny on the opposing team, but also ludicolo clutching the win.
That's because of a small sample size, isn't it? A larger sample size is almost always going to have a lower percentage. It's like per 36 numbers in basketball. But generally, players get less minutes because they aren't as good. So smoothing their stats up to 36 minutes isn't realistic.
Even so, I'd dispute your notion on the ratio.
As of now, Hypnosis can be used by 2 current OU mons, 3 UU, 4 RU, Politoad, and 5 NU mons. Sing can be used by 3 OU mons, 3 UU mons, Chansey in RU, and then NU or below. Spore, which is the only 100% accurate sleep move, can only be used on 7 mons total. And 3 of those are LC mons. Sleep powder can be used by 1 UU mon in Venusaur, 2 RU mons including H-Lilligant and A, Exeggutor. 2 of those 3 were brought up when talking about more broken OU mons, but on Pokemon Showdown teambuilder, neither Venusaur nor H-Liligant is categorized as OU.
Or at least this is what it says on Showdown Teambuilder. Sometimes lowered tiered pokemon can be used in higher tiers, or things aren't or are updated, which is why I was even this thorough. But the total amount of OU and UU listed mons just to be safe is just 14. That's 5 OU and 9 in UU. H-Liligant is technically listed as RU, but sure, add that because you mentioned that other people mentioned it was maybe problematic.
So you have, what, very generously 15 mons that can sleep in OU. Of those, the you wanted me to believe that 5 of them were OP. Not just the original 2 mons I cited. Well, ok then. 5/15 is also 1/3rd. Remember 6/19 bans? Technically, that's a little below 1/3, but 5/15 is exactly 1/3. Therefore, the ratio for sleep might actually be higher.
Huh? Saying there is no inconsistency because the community reacts differently is a contradiction. The reaction itself is inconsistent is my point. I've been talking about the double standards here and you basically just reinforced it. Yeah, the community support isn't there because it's a popularity contest. Tera has become a sacred cow of sorts.
I don't see how this changes my actual point, but I'll bite. Sleep Clause was originally, briefly cartridge accurate, sort of, because of Pokemon Stadium. But it was held on Smogon for many generations. Tera is only here this gen. By touting cartridge accuracy over whatever Smogon did before, you seem to imply you think past policy was incorrect.
This leads me back to the main problem, which is what exactly is Smogon policy anymore? I only even brought up Sleep because, when you compare it to things like how we have handled Shed Tail or Tera, the difference in how we handle it are extremely obvious.
But it's not just me. Even JustAShroomGod mentioned this, "We've had SOOO many examples of conflicting tiering policy that people can just pick and choose what tiering decision they want to use to support their argument instead of the other way around. An example: in the recent sleep discussion, people got into grandfathering arguments, sleep moves clauses in OMs, tiering policy regarding Shed Tail and Rage Fist, OHKO moves, freeze clause in adv, parafusion and other such 'hax', disparities in forcing sleep moves via encore/choice items, Tera precedent, etc. Both sides used these arguments, so you really just had to go through and decide which arguments you wanted to consider valid, which mainly came down to personal preference. I'm not innocent of it either, I definitely partook in that discussion, but it's just something to be aware of."
And the fact that this is the case, not only with sleep, but with seemingly everything these days shows that we have little consistency in policy in the big picture. Does no one else find this problematic?
While I do think that the cart accuracy thing was bullshit, I was even thinking of making a rant about it at some point, I think the consensus was found that can it be replicated by a gentlemens agreement on cart. The examples of turn damage in ADV (or whatever its called) and freeze clause in Gens 1 and 2 is different because one is a bs luck mechanic that is better removed and the other makes those games so much better as without it, games would not be that great as fishing for freezes would become the norm, which at one point in GSC, it did.
If you want to look at tiering policy, I suggest you look at it here:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tiering-policy-framework.3628026/
It is a very good read and was how I understood why Finch did the sleep ban.
I also want to clarify something, but what inconsistencies are in tiering policy? The only ones are previous gens, which I've established why they are exceptions, but what other examples are there?
Classic Pokemon experience:
''Twice, the opponent switched Kingambit hard into my Hoopa's attack. Twice, I predicted that and clicked Focus Blast. Twice, I missed.''
So exiting! So much fun!
Encoring a gambit endgame into sucker punch is so satisfying. To see their excitement at thinking they won the endgame vanish is so great.
It would have to be like max SpD Corviknight
252 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Corviknight: 184-217 (46 - 54.2%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 129-153 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah its pretty shocking how big a difference is with a moves BP. When I was a kid I could never wrap my head around nidokings sheer force sludge wave being stronger than his poison jab. That's why hoopa feels so underwhelming with Dark Pulse.
As a small experiment, say it got fiery wrath (90bp dark move). On an absol, Dark Pulse does a maximum of 78.5%. For fiery wrath to do the same, it would only need 145 base special attack to deal equal damage of 78.5%. Or in reverse, an extra 10 base power on your move effectively adds 25base attacking stat. Probably why dragon claw on haxorus always felt so garbage as well. I guess that's why hoopa is better off running physical with hyperspace fury as it's Dark move.
252 Atk Passimian Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Grass: 159-187 (41.7 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Grass: 163-193 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
this is a difference of 40 base attack, it's crazy
for reference, that's the difference between extreme killer arceus and spidops.
...and that's why we need to give lokix megahorn asap!
The Dark Pulse in question was used against a SpD Corviknight. Regular Corviknights will take around 50% from Dark Pulse, with just Scarf.
This goes to show how impactful Investment can be, especially for lower stats.
Incineroar works because intimidate is such a good tool right now. HArcainine, Incineroar, Krook, Hitmontop, and the Tauros forms all have broadly comparable stats, and each can use intimidate to hang in OU. Incineroar has the best support movepool, but depending on team composition, all of them are usable either as choice mons or support mons. I know morkal made an AV lux set way back when but I wonder if it would be better off as a choice mon since it is working with 120 atk. I haven't tried it though, it might be too slow.
That said, the two intimidate mons that can surprise the opponent the most feel like Mence and Gyra; putting the opponent at -1 leads to switches and the opportunity to boost. Mence is def inferior to moon but having a real ability when you aren't under sun or running booster helps.
This is true, the same happens when 367367 legendaries with 550 above BST arrive at the same time. It's still possible to find niches for unranked Mons though,just harder. In my (probably futile) attempt to save Kyurem, I got the the reqs with a Kanto Ninetales, you just need to find the right niche for the Mon you want to use. Look some Morkal posts, they are useful.
I think kanto ninetails actually does have a niche on sun teams as an alternative sun setter to torkoal. Torkoal has an incredible utility movepool but ninetails has just enough to get you some early momentum. Healing Wish + Scorching Sands + Weather Ball + Roar is definitely worth considering if you like a much faster pace than torkoal provides. There's also nothing stopping you from just using both if you want a fast start but also want some mid game backbone if it comes down to that.