yes but 2 of said powerful quartet are banned and one is a PU snail
anyways i just read the post and realized something. sleep clause is gone right.
could effect spore put an entire team to sleep?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Suspect]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
anyways i just read the post and realized something. sleep clause is gone right.
could effect spore put an entire team to sleep?
It's official, SV OU is now a joke.
SV OU: Nothing BUT rest for the wicked
Ik people want Kyurem next, but I think Hazards (either through themselves or Ghold) or a redo of the Tera suspects would be best for the meta
bad joke go back home
That’s true, but only one of that quartet is in OU right now; the other six OU dark types are all different Pokémon. When you factor in the bans they do make up a good deal more of the OU presence this gen though.
The council is discussing Kyurem internally.
Finch, sorry for saying this, but this kind of stuff is why people is no longer taking Smogon seriously. A fundamental mechanic SHOULD NOT be quick banned, no matter how unfair it is, even if it's just matter of diplomacy; you didn't thought of it with Terastalization, you didn't do it with DYNAMAX which is an obvious quickban. Why now is it fine to ban without chance of people to say something about it properly, or even, IDK, show the data to support your claims? Because I'll be honest, it's quite easy for people to think you might alter said data.
And yes, a Status is in a sense as fundamental as a generational gimmick, your strats are based on burns, sleep and paralysis as much as your tera. Not to mention you're opening a rabbit hole to justify many bans, most notably paralysis and freeze.
sv ou：don't have a rest！wake up！
Mainly problem is Darkrai，not others
Mainly problem is Darkrai，not others
Lol what, where is this magical mass movement of people not taking Smogon seriously
It's very weird to me that back in late October, 3.68 was just a suspect for Roaring Moon as "we were not comfortable quickbanning it" when now we're seeing an entire class of moves banned on a 3.7 with no suspect beforehand. TBH, this feels like a massive overstep.
A powerful quartet where only one is currently OU
When looking at the total sleep ban, from the point of view of a meta with sleep clause..
Complete sleep ban is violating the “consistency” that smogon is trying to create. Unless the argument was that sleep in general was OP and it never should have had sleep clause in the first place.
in which case, it’s time to delete freeze and paralysis? I mean after all they’re inherently uncompetitive, according to how sleep was assessed.
only burns, poison and toxics can be completely accounted for, with full player agency. Sleep, freeze and paralysis all take away a lot of choice, and rely on chance.
the sleep ban is a nerf to anything that used yawn, spore and sleep powder. They had legitimate competitive purposes. Darkrai hypnosis arguably did not.
I think by trying to “simplify” sleep clause into a sleep ban. It’s changed the way you need to look at everything that takes away player agency. After all, you’re not choosing to be fully paralyzed 3 turns in a row against static + discharge zapdos that paralyses 2 Pokémon’s over 2 turns.
Complete sleep ban is violating the “consistency” that smogon is trying to create. Unless the argument was that sleep in general was OP and it never should have had sleep clause in the first place.
in which case, it’s time to delete freeze and paralysis? I mean after all they’re inherently uncompetitive, according to how sleep was assessed.
only burns, poison and toxics can be completely accounted for, with full player agency. Sleep, freeze and paralysis all take away a lot of choice, and rely on chance.
the sleep ban is a nerf to anything that used yawn, spore and sleep powder. They had legitimate competitive purposes. Darkrai hypnosis arguably did not.
I think by trying to “simplify” sleep clause into a sleep ban. It’s changed the way you need to look at everything that takes away player agency. After all, you’re not choosing to be fully paralyzed 3 turns in a row against static + discharge zapdos that paralyses 2 Pokémon’s over 2 turns.
This is a really rude generalization and also just untrue given how massive the community is.
False equivelancy. A suspect would be a huge misuse of policy for this. Think about it: suspect reqs are a basic competency test to gauge broken vs balanced. There is no policy backbone or connection to suspect reqs at all, making it like trying to fit a square object in a round hole to suspect something like sleep.
We did not suspect other things deemed uncompetitive like evasion, so why would this suddenly be any different? You trying to differentiate it holds no weight as there is no clause that something is "major" vs "minor" or whatever these means holds specific weight in tiering. You are entitled to your opinion on what is right and what is wrong of course, but the right decision was made within current tiering infastructure without a doubt.
In my defense they mentioned how there were 3 banned dark types as part of the post.
Hypnosis being good was sort of beside the point, it was inconsistent as fuck no doubt about it, that was part of the problem. Too many people on this website seem to be just fine with mechanics that are uncompetitive by definition.
I have to agree that Hypnosis Darkrai wasn't even good, as it was basically a 60% chance to win, 40% to die. It's just the fact that it had a 60% chance to be a 6-0 was uncompetitive, not necessarily good. its the same idea that evasion isn't even a good strategy, but its also an uncompetitive and annoying one.
CobsonYaoi
formerly Holesum420
All this over a couple mushrooms becoming unviable Jesus Christ
I think the calculation is not just "does this mechanic have an uncompetitive element", but also "is there anything else to it?". Sleep's fundamental mechanic is immobilizing the opponent for an undetermined number of turns. Paralysis' fundamental mechanic is halving the opponent's speed, which is foreseeable, calculable, and perfectly competitive. There is an uncompetitive element to paralysis, but it brings more to the table than just that element. It's hard to make that argument with sleep.
On freeze... 98ish% of the time when a mon is slept, it is slept by a move whose only effect is to inflict sleep. The other ways of inflicting sleep (like relic song) were not banned. Freeze is never inflicted by a move whose only effect is to inflict freeze. It's a totally different thing... how do you ban freeze without altering game mechanics? I guess your answer could be "ban basically every ice move" but again, ice moves bring more to the table than just their uncompetitive element, so they stay. I think that's a reasonable and consistent treatment of these mechanics.
we have heard before there is a burden of proof to demonstrate that a proposed banned thing is broken on the majority of Pokémon it’s on.
in this case sleep was determined as uncompetitive on Darkrai in particular. It had a unique way of making a lot of progress once it landed a sleep due to making use of the 3 slots it had left + its ability synergising with sleep.
in this case, determining that Darkrai made sleep uncompetitive caused sleep to be banned. Despite no clear consensus that sleep was breaking other Pokémon like Amoonguss, torkoal, valiant, Breloom and liligant hisui.
if the issue is a policy simplification, then the burden of proof should be that in gen 9, sleep is inherently broken. But we have no empirical data to support that, since the only meta where unlimited sleep is permitted is VGC.
in this case sleep was determined as uncompetitive on Darkrai in particular. It had a unique way of making a lot of progress once it landed a sleep due to making use of the 3 slots it had left + its ability synergising with sleep.
in this case, determining that Darkrai made sleep uncompetitive caused sleep to be banned. Despite no clear consensus that sleep was breaking other Pokémon like Amoonguss, torkoal, valiant, Breloom and liligant hisui.
if the issue is a policy simplification, then the burden of proof should be that in gen 9, sleep is inherently broken. But we have no empirical data to support that, since the only meta where unlimited sleep is permitted is VGC.
senorlopez
Formerly Ricardo [old]
How or why can you confidently say the right decision was made when you said yourself anything between 3.2 and 3.7 can go either way?
This is the lowest ever score that has resulted in a quickban apart from the generation's first survey which had abnormally low ratings. Rejoice in that you achieved what you were after, but saying it was absolutely the right decision is a stretch based on the data.
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We’ve made a mistake! By removing sleep clause we have removed our chance of enacting a freeze clause!!!
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