Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Suspect]

gregdawiz I agree. Which is why the ladder should not be accounted for thoughtful analysis why sleep should be removed as it is difficult to determine a player's honest skill level in a really big room so to speak, that is to say 6v6 singles is not applicable for a perfect, competitive metagame but a survey for which to serve fun experiences with luck.
This is not something I agree with. I do think VGC in general may have the more balanced pokemon experience but we are a community that aims to find a balance for competitive singles. I at least still think this is possible and support the removal of certain egregious luck elements like Ohko and evasion

There is no aspect of tiering policy that requires every user of a mechanic to be broken/uncompetitive, only multiple. Gothita for example would have most likely never been considered for a ban before Smogon started banning the abilities.
What I don't understand is why the burden still falls on sleep when it is still only a small selection. 'Multiple' is vague and really only means more than 1. Could you have argued for a Protosynthesis ban when we had Roaring Moon and Flutter Mane in Ubers (or could we do it again if RM gets banned again?) I know again this is talking about 'uncompetitiveness' and not 'broken-ness' but there is no valid precedent here. Even with Baton Pass, you could easily argue a large majority of pokemon are uncompetitive with the move. Here it is only 3 (mayybe 4) users of sleep out of a close to 100 possible users.

An accurate comparison would for us to arbitrarily decide to not ban OHKO and Evasion moves, but instead put the following restrictions in place:

- You can only kill one Pokemon thanks to an OHKO move

- You can only use Evasion boosting moves on one Pokemon per game

These are corrections that are as nonsensical as the current implementation of sleep clause mod. Both of these would certainly make these mechanics more palettable, but it's overall a way to circumvent the fact that these mechanics are incompatible with a competitive metagame.
Again I think that something like this was in place at one point. Either way, this is a false equivalency. OHKO moves getting only 1 possible KO per game and only having 1 valid Evasion booster would still be ludicrously uncompetitive and even debatably broken on even poor users of the mechanics. These clauses would not solve the inherit issues of OHKO and Evasion. This would be a very poorly thought out clause if implemented and a reason why you don't see a clause like this (aside from the general distate for clauses)

Sleep Clause has given us several generations of balanced OU. For these generations, we largely determined that sleep was compatible with a competitive metagame. Really the argument I would like to see why sleep is no longer inherently compatible with a current metagame. Why is it that sleep is uncompetitive on mons that are not directly adjacent to Darkrai, Iron Val... So far we have no reason to believe that it is sleep that is the issue and not a few bad actors.
 
Just FYI to you all. You can design a great team with your choice of sleep abuser: darkrai, breloom, valiant, liligant, amoonguss..

and it will still win less games due to being “uncompetitive” - “I scored 3 sleep turns in a row”…

than the amount of games I have won/lost to full paralysis, flinches, and miss chances.

if darkrai is 3-turn sleeping its way through more games than it should. That’s a reason to ban darkrai. After all, you decided to ban Shaymin-Sky, and not ban all flinching

smogon has always been trying to juggle contradictions. Cloyster wasn’t banned, but kings rock was.

clear contradiction, no one was bothered by how uncompetitive kings rock was on anything else. They were fringe at best.

Cloyster cheesed past a Melmetal in a tournament game. Suddenly this is grounds for endless discussion and eventual banning of kings rock.

now we see the 0.6*0.66 = 0.4 chance to actually “cheese” with hypnosis darkrai and apparently this is grounds for endless discussion about how unfair sleep is.

looks like the benchmark for people getting up in arms about hax is when it’s a 40% chance or higher
 
Last edited:
Isn't Rest competitively viable only, that is to say, the player can still win, that is to say, competitively viable; in 3v3 singles? Anyways, I'm at the point in the game where Game Freak or whatever is balancing 6v6 Singles OU balance the game on Cartridge.
:dondozo: knows your location

Gouging fire is m
is this supposed to say mid?
252+ Atk Choice Band Protosynthesis Tera Fire Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor in Sun: 476-560 (134.4 - 158.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
since the topic of gliscor came up, here are my thoughts on it.

gliscor was unequivocally broken in dlc1, but i don't think it is right now. very strong? yes. the best spikes setter in this endless bloody war against hazards? without a doubt. annoying as shit? absolutely. but banworthy? i don't think so, and here's why:

PART 1: NEW ANSWERS

between new moves, returning mons, and expanded movepools, dlc2 introduced some options that can beat gliscor 1v1 fairly easily:
  • :weavile: thanks to regaining triple axel, weavile is much more splashable than before and has a much easier time forcing tera water on gliscor. if something else on the team has tera'd, weavile is an offensive hard-counter to gliscor and can even use its protect turns to set up
  • :meowscarada: for some reason, meowscarada also gets triple axel. (i'm not complaining, it just doesn't make much sense to me flavor-wise.) this lets it threaten gliscor similarly to weavile, with the added bonus of being able to hit it really hard with flower trick after tera water
  • :primarina: primarina might fall out of ou eventually, but it's still a legitimately usable thing and i'm absolutely here for it. liquid voice psychic noise has the benefit of not only heavily denting gliscor but also preventing poison heal from working for a couple turns, so even if it does decide to tera, it still has to briefly deal with the fact that entropy exists. if gliscor's running knock off over toxic, psychic noise draining kiss primarina is actually capable of stalling out gliscor if it teras
  • :darkrai: lead darkrai forces a 50/50 onto lead gliscor—if gliscor protects turn 1, it can nasty plot and proceed to start going wild; if it doesn't, darkrai can click the funny cheese move and potentially let gliscor get knocked before getting poisoned later in the game. because of how dangerous giving even a single free turn to darkrai is, this is one of the only lead matchups that gliscor might not want to just automatically turn 1 protect on. also, other darkrai sets that carry ice beam give gliscor a lot of trouble, as strong special attackers with ice moves tend to do
  • :deoxys-speed: heavily dependent on the set and positioning, but deo-s can solidly beat gliscor sometimes. if you lead with nasty plot deo-s and they lead with gliscor, gliscor will always protect turn 1 expecting knock off, so that's just a free plot and it's forced to tera or switch to avoid the incoming ice beam. ice beam sets in general are bad for gliscor, especially if something else on the team has burned tera. also, skill swap is a very niche option on deo-s that is incredibly situational and usually bad but can work hilariously well against gliscor
  • :skarmory: this doesn't do jack shit against gliscor offensively, but it hard-walls the eq/toxic set, which means you can just either whirlwind it out (if you're carrying that), pp-stall it, or wait for it to give up and switch, then deal with it later after putting yourself in a better position to
  • :serperior: i mean you just kinda sub and then click the leaf storm button, not exactly a grand strategy behind this one
  • :kyurem: THE BIG ONE. i saved the best for last here—kyurem is the offensive gliscor answer. physical sets force tera water to avoid being slaughtered by icicle spear, then get ddanced on during their protect turns and slaughtered by scale shot anyway. special sets just click freeze-dry and kill it whether it goes tera water or not. this matchup is practically unwinnable unless gliscor runs a different ice-resisting tera than water, and most of those get bonked by earth power, the one exception being… tera ice. and no one wants to be the person running tera ice gliscor
now, you'll notice a lot of these assume gliscor is going to be tera water, which might make you wonder about tera dragon, which was a somewhat commonly seen alternative in dlc1. that brings me to my next point:

PART 2: EIGHT FUCKING DRAGON TYPES

as we all know, dlc2 came with a massive rise in the quantity and quality of legal dragon-types. in addition to the existing dragapult, dragonite, and walking wake, we now also have raging bolt, gouging fire, roaring moon, kyurem, and archaludon, all of which are top-tier mons at the absolute minimum. this has come with a concurrent increase in viability to things that answer dragon-types well and a decrease in viability to things that don't. this means that gliscor's dlc1 answers that it would run tera dragon for—mainly waterpon and non-ice-beam manaphy—are waaaaay less common, and dragon as a defensive tera type in general is not great when the average ou match is seeing so many more dragon, fairy, and ice moves. thus, gliscor is kind of pigeonholed into a single good defensive tera type, which makes it a lot easier to predict if and when it clicks the button. in theory, it could get around this by running tera fairy, but that just shifts the problem from "eight fucking dragon types" to "seven fucking steel types", two of which are top 3 in usage

so gliscor's got more answers and its tera is easier to play around. but it's still plenty strong and can be very annoying if it does pop that tera. unfortunately, popping tera early is risky and gliscor really doesn't like doing it. which is a shame, because gliscor needs to be a water-type more often now thanks to:

PART 3: CLIMATE CHANGE

weather has made a comeback in a big way. every single weather condition got at least one new abuser in this dlc, and most of that is bad for gliscor on some level. here's how it breaks down:
  • :smooth rock: sand is the only weather gliscor isn't really worried about and it didn't get anything to directly contend with gliscor, but the return of excadrill means we have one more hazard remover, which means one more opportunity to undo gliscor's spikes progress. it's not much on its own, but even the small indirect nerfs add up. also, sand is by far the least relevant weather right now, which means that when a form of weather is up, it's most likely gonna be something that fucks over gliscor somehow
  • :icy rock: hail got kyurem, gliscor's worst matchup. not much to say here that wasn't already said earlier, kyurem claps gliscor six ways from sunday. alolan ninetales itself has also seen a bump in usage because of kyurem, and any mon with access to freeze-dry is a mon gliscor is very scared of
  • :heat rock: sun went from being a regular-sized problem for gliscor to a massive problem. in dlc1, walking wake was a terrible matchup for it already, but sun itself wasn't super popular for a number of reasons. now it's back in full force, bolstered by the new protosynthesis mons and the return of volcarona and roaring moon. despite not particularly liking the prospect of being stalled out by toxic/protect or having to eat an earthquake, all of those mons are threatening to gliscor on some level thanks to their setup capabilities as well as their ability to just hit it neutrally really fucking hard. and of course walking wake is still there, giving the exact same amount of problems to gliscor as before but more likely to have sun behind it
  • :damp rock: yes, gliscor can tera water to deal with rain's setters and water-type abusers. but those aren't the reason that rain got popular all of a sudden. the one doing the heavy lifting on that front is archaludon, which can massively punish gliscor after a tera with electro shot. if gliscor doesn't tera, it just kinda gets run over by the rest of the rain team
so, in conclusion, that's why i feel that gliscor is not broken at this current period of sv ou: new direct answers, an environment that restricts its tera options, and shaky matchups against the three most relevant weathers. i do suspect there will eventually be bans that remove or hurt counterplay to gliscor, and it might cross that line again at some point in the future, but right now i think gliscor has enough new counterplay to it to no longer be broken
 
People so thirsty for drama they now making up issues or bringing old issues that are no longer existant into the discussion.

We need to find some other distraction, people getting mad over here, so... HEAR ME OUT, WHAT IF... WE OVERTHROW THE OU MONARCHY ONCE AND FOR ALL AND RESTORE A MERITOCRATHIC DEMOCRACY, where OU leaders are actually chosen by the people and not just some privileged bunch of sweaty Koalas.

View attachment 593708
Do they really?
Hire this guy!
 
People so thirsty for drama they now making up issues or bringing old issues that are no longer existant into the discussion.

We need to find some other distraction, people getting mad over here, so... HEAR ME OUT, WHAT IF... WE OVERTHROW THE OU MONARCHY ONCE AND FOR ALL AND RESTORE A MERITOCRATHIC DEMOCRACY, where OU leaders are actually chosen by the people and not just some privileged bunch of sweaty Koalas.

View attachment 593708
Do they really?
you really wanna start a pun war here?
Untitled719_20240115130007.png
 
Damn, Blaziken is good. It feels like I click substitute and then just win. After 1 Swords Dance, this guy OHKOs everything not named Dondozo. I’ve faced sun three times so far, and all three I’ve led Blaziken into Torkoal, clicked sub on their rocks, clicked SD twice and swept. Literally, 6-0. +2 Tera Ground EQ OHKOs Walking Wake. Primal Groudon’s kid
 

Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Pre-Contributor
Has anyone had success with Ursaluna? Been seeing a lot of usage of it in mid-high ladder as a wallbreaker, especially with Grassy Terrain support. Really interesting to see on a mon that was thought to not be able to have success outside of Trick Room.
 
There is no aspect of tiering policy that requires every user of a mechanic to be broken/uncompetitive, only multiple. Gothita for example would have most likely never been considered for a ban before Smogon started banning the abilities. Or for a more recent example, no one would have argued that Basculin-White-Stripe would have been broken with Last Respects.
You're right (or at least you should be), but there is some confusion on this point. I've seen several different users claim that every user of the move/ability must be broken, citing Diglett/Trapinch as precedent. There was even some debate over how Basculin would affect the Last Respects ban before the Council made its decision.

It doesn't/shouldn't affect the current discussion, but this is an area where tiering policy should be made clearer so everyone is on the same page.

An accurate comparison would for us to arbitrarily decide to not ban OHKO and Evasion moves, but instead put the following restrictions in place:

- You can only kill one Pokemon thanks to an OHKO move

- You can only use Evasion boosting moves on one Pokemon per game

These are corrections that are as nonsensical as the current implementation of sleep clause mod. Both of these would certainly make these mechanics more palettable, but it's overall a way to circumvent the fact that these mechanics are incompatible with a competitive metagame.
We've had hundreds of posts debating exactly that for Tera, with the Council's blessing. Modern tiering policy seems to allow using clauses to preserve major mechanics, so long as the clause is clean enough, balances the mechanic, and has sufficient support.
 
Damn, Blaziken is good. It feels like I click substitute and then just win. After 1 Swords Dance, this guy OHKOs everything not named Dondozo. I’ve faced sun three times so far, and all three I’ve led Blaziken into Torkoal, clicked sub on their rocks, clicked SD twice and swept. Literally, 6-0. +2 Tera Ground EQ OHKOs Walking Wake. Primal Groudon’s kid
You likely facing bad players. Blaziken isnt that hard to deal with and while viable, any good player should be able to stop it on its tracks fairly quickly.
 
We've had hundreds of posts debating exactly that for Tera, with the Council's blessing. Modern tiering policy seems to allow using clauses to preserve major mechanics, so long as the clause is clean enough, balances the mechanic, and has sufficient support.
it's worth noting that sleep clause mod has never been clean enough, is no longer balancing the mechanic, and is rapidly losing support
 
chat what if sleep clause was changed to one mon per game, not at a time? So if you Hypnosis an enemy mon, you can't sleep another mon for the rest of the game.
 
This foolish discussion of banning sleep must cease at once! Havest thou not committed thyself to the 57 precepts? Are ye so eager to abandon yourselves? Precept 3: Always Stay Rested: Fighting and battling take their toll on your pokemon team. When you rest, your body strengthens and repairs itself. The longer you rest, the stronger you become.
precept 40: obey no law but your own. laws written by others may inconvenience you or be a burden. let your own desires be the only law.

you know what my desire is? sleep moves clause
 
This is Baton Pass all over again. What if we limit it to only 3 mons per team? Oh, turns out it's still broken. What if we limit it to just one mon? Oh, turns out it's still broken. What if we ban stat passes but still allow sub pass and dry pass? Oh, turns out it's still broken.

What if we cut the bullshit half measures and just ban sleep?
I'm not sure how serious EpicGuy was being in their suggestion, but the reflexive opposition to clauses doesn't really give good evidence as to why their idea would be a bad idea and doesn't really help any conversation. "People tried something and it didn't work out, therefore we should never try anything ever again" is a mentality thats very prevalent on smogon. The traction this sentiment gets baffles me. It doesn't seem like it has much logical basis and moreso just screams general intolerance for other people's proposed ideas. Why do we as a community act as if any proposed complex clause is inherently doomed to failure?
 
I'm not sure how serious EpicGuy was being in their suggestion, but the reflexive opposition to clauses doesn't really give good evidence as to why their idea would be a bad idea and doesn't really help any conversation. "People tried something and it didn't work out, therefore we should never try anything ever again" is a mentality thats very prevalent on smogon. The traction this sentiment gets baffles me. It doesn't seem like it has much logical basis and moreso just screams general intolerance for other people's proposed ideas. Why do we as a community act as if any proposed complex clause is inherently doomed to failure?
Well, for starters, because we have several instances of complex ban causing additional problems (Baton Pass is the most spectacular example but DrizzleSwim and now Sleep Clause fall into this category now), and... zero instances of them not doing that.

It could just be coincidence that every complex ban we try ends badly, but it could also be that complex bans give too much leeway and are much easier for broken or uncompetitive strategies to adapt around than a simple ban. Every complex ban has been an attempt to nerf a mechanic into an acceptable state; maybe that's the problem. Maybe instead of trying to adjust the power level of a mechanic until it's acceptable in a constantly shifting metagame, it should just be outright removed. Even if we somehow got it right, there's no guarantee that it will stay that way and lots of precedent that it won't.

And all of this is ignoring the argument that sleep is just uncompetitive. Trying to balance an uncompetitive mechanic is an even more Sisyphean task than trying to balance a broken one.

Oh, and the argument that Sleep Clause isn't cart-accurate.
 
Well, for starters, because we have several instances of complex ban causing additional problems (Baton Pass is the most spectacular example but DrizzleSwim and now Sleep Clause fall into this category now), and... zero instances of them not doing that.

It could just be coincidence that every complex ban we try ends badly, but it could also be that complex bans give too much leeway and are much easier for broken or uncompetitive strategies to adapt around than a simple ban. Every complex ban has been an attempt to nerf a mechanic into an acceptable state; maybe that's the problem. Maybe instead of trying to adjust the power level of a mechanic until it's acceptable in a constantly shifting metagame, it should just be outright removed. Even if we somehow got it right, there's no guarantee that it will stay that way and lots of precedent that it won't.

And all of this is ignoring the argument that sleep is just uncompetitive. Trying to balance an uncompetitive mechanic is an even more Sisyphean task than trying to balance a broken one.
Another example I know of is Excadrill in BW, which I have said before. First, they banned excadrill. Then, later down the line when hazards were so dominating that they needed some reprise from it (Gen 9 anyone?), they decided to unban excadrill on the caveat that it couldn't run sand rush on sand teams. Then rain teams realised, "shit, we can use excadrill on our teams to counter sand teams", thus, if sand got up their weather they would have to face a mon so bullshit that they couldn't use it themselves. After this continued for a while, they just bit the bullet and banned sand rush, despite it also being on stoutland and it not being banworthy (though correct me if I'm wrong on that).
The reason why people are so adverse to complex bans is because loopholes will always exist and people will try to find said loopholes, it's much easier to just ban the whole thing then go through the whole process of bannning small parts of a mechanic/move/ability/mon. Remember, we have limited time in each metagame, so we want to make it as enjoyable as possible as quickly as possible, though we still should to it at a reasonable pace.
 
Just fought against a Darkrai running Hypnosis, Confuse Ray, Nasty Plot, and Dark Pulse. I've changed my mind. Sleep should be banned. Half because this was kind of the event horizon moment for me where I realized that this strategy is way too degenerate to have a 60% success rate, half because I got fucking bodied.

I still maintain sleep isn't intrinsically broken or uncompetitive but what Hypnosis specifically is doing to this game is pretty out of line.
 
Just fought against a Darkrai running Hypnosis, Confuse Ray, Nasty Plot, and Dark Pulse. I've changed my mind. Sleep should be banned. Half because this was kind of the event horizon moment for me where I realized that this strategy is way too degenerate to have a 60% success rate, half because I got fucking bodied.

I still maintain sleep isn't intrinsically broken or uncompetitive but what Hypnosis specifically is doing to this game is pretty out of line.
At least you've been beaten by a mon that is ranked OU, I once almost got swept by a fucking arbok. ARBOK. Which is in ZU. I underestimated it and it got like 4 coils + 4 scale shots. I won the battle, but at what cost.
 
Y'know who was probably the best pokemon in the tier during the DLC1 gliscor suspect? It wasn't gliscor, it was Sneasler. Having multiple physical walls to deal with Sneasler (which didn't work and that's why that fucker is gone to hopefully never return) inadvertently also helped deal with gliscor in the builder and guess what, it didn't work. Also, need I remind you, Gliscor is A- on the Ubers VR (which again isn't 1:1 to a pokemon's banworthiness but it helps prove my point) and that tier is FULL of supremely strong special attackers and physical attackers packing coverage to specifically beat ground types. Gliscor is probably too much for this iteration of OU and should be banned while we deal with some other questions. I'm down for a gliscor retest in the future after we deal with some stuff and assuming Gholdengo is banned. But as it stands, Gliscor is too overwhelming on the defensive side and needs to go.
I feel like it's fine if we suspect test Gliscor, but it won't get banned when we suspect test it.
 
Handling those Strong Special attackers is clearly not Gliscor's Job, as the cores noted would refer to, and besides Psyshock Valiant or Kyurem, the Glowking example shared hits most of the Special answers.

Ogerpon Wellspring is a good match-up but it basically needs Gliscor to come into it instead of Vice Versa, because it can't KO even after SR with unboosted Ivy Cudgel, at which point it gets slapped by Toxic and Gliscor can Protect to rack up a turn or two of recovery/damage, or simply go to the actual answer one should carry to a prominent Water type such as Raging Bolt, Rillaboom, Serperior, Dragonite, Amoongus etc. immediately

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 230-272 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

Great Tusk meanwhile is by no means a common Band user, but it's also ridiculously telegraphed into Gliscor unless you nail it on the switch-in to check you (meaning Tusk can't just be responding to something but has to scare it out to switch). So you're aiming to nail a very particular switch-in (this presuming Gliscor is the team's only answer to Tusk with or without an assumed Ice Spinner) and then locking yourself into a middling power CB non-STAB move to faint a mon and potentially give your opponent a free set-up turn with anything that can survive that like Samurott or Gouging Fire. This on top of the fact that a major reason Gliscor is so powerful is that it's a Hazard setter that Cripples the closest thing the tier has to Removal Support (forcing Tusk to run IS, much less Choice Band, severely hurts its match-ups if it wants to fit Rapid Spin as well).

252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 324-384 (92 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (so if it gets the KO on a decently healthy Gliscor the opponent KNOWS you have a band)
I feel like the strategy is to just wear down checks. Kyurem with specs comes in and clicks draco meteor, and anything is taking a massive amount of damage unless it's a blissey.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 3, Guests: 104)

Top