Fair, that might be a nice compromise between the two moves, cheers!
I'm loving the phys defensive calcs btw xD
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Suspect]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I'm loving the phys defensive calcs btw xD
From what I’m getting here people don’t want to suspect darkrai or valiant and ban all sleep moves but want something done about sleep cheese. I feel like sleep is healthy on mons except for darkrai and valiant, so why don’t we just ban hypnosis and dark void on darkrai and valiant just like the shed tail on orthworm ban? We get to keep them in the meta, sleep stays on healthy and balanced mons, and no more hypnosis cheese sets. Problem solved.
Because the moves aren't broken, like in the case of shed tail, originally cyclizar was banned because we thought fast Regenerator was the issue. Once orthworm was shown to do the same stuff it was clear that the move itself was broken.
If we now do "move X is banned on pokemon Y", then we open up a can of worms where every OU banned pokemon could be unbanned if we ban a move or tera on that specific mon. It makes the tiering and banning process a whole lot more complicated without much gain.
But what about swagplay? We banned swagger on some mons to stop swagplay and that was fine. It seems the same to me.
Which gen was this and which mons was it banned on? I don't think I was around for swagplay ban.
EDIT: I've looked it up, and it looks like swagger as a move is banned in gens 5 and 6. So still not the same scenario as we would be looking at here.
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Just because it’s a different gen doesn’t mean it doesn’t apply. It shows that there isn’t a problem with banning a specific move on mons that are problematic with it.
See my edit. Swagger in general is banned as Swagger clause, not on specific mons.
okay. Wait a minute… can’t we just ban hypnosis and dark void in general then? I can’t think of any mons at all that abuse them other than valiant and darkrai.
Hypnosis has decent distribution. Better off just banning the mons.
Side note, hypnosis has 100% accuracy under gravity.
I agree. Click the button called Burning Bulwark.Hello,
I would like to provide a reminder on the power of Tera Fire Choice Band Gouging Fire in SunLet fat teams never be of concern again.
This is one of the strongest attacks in POKEMON HISTORY and you can use it RIGHT NOW. No set-up. Just come in and click a button. Few times has there been such a confluence of stats, typing, move power, weather synergy, and broken generational mechanic. (based)
Here's a table of some of the most terrifying physical attacks ever. All these damage calculations are with max EV positive nature, adjusted against a TYPELESS DONDOZO and are period-accurate (i.e. no national dex imaginary scenarios)
vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Typeless Dondozo with no ability
Move Damage as % Dondozo HP Choice Band Strong Jaw Fishious Rend in Rain
(103.7 - 122.2%) Choice Band Guts Tera Normal Facade (P.S. Use this set!)
(103.1 - 121.4%) Choice Band Protosynthesis Tera Fire (100 - 117.8%) Choice Band Orichalcum Pulse Tera Fire Flare Blitz: in Sun
(86.3 - 101.7%) Choice Band Sheer Force Flare Blitz
(86.3 - 101.7%) Choice Band Tera Rock Head Smash
(83.3 - 98.4%) Guts Tera Normal (69 - 81.3%) Choice Band Dragon Ascent
(53.7 - 63.2%)
Choice Band Tera DarkHyperspace Fury
(49.6 - 58.7%)
I hope this provides some perspective on the power. It is a Dracovish-level breaker in OU. It is twice as stronger as choice band Hoopa-U!
Use this. Click buttons
That's cool but it also can't be burned bc it's fire type so it just clicks it again.
CobsonYaoi
formerly Holesum420
Yeah Gliscor was never broken this gen with the overall power level shooting up. I still facepalm over the fact that Gliscor was suspected and banned before Gholdengo.
Fair that it is not good now, but mate 75/125 bulk with poison heal to avoid status and an amazing typing which is even better with tera was so hard to kill in DLC1 meta with its best counter being itself and its ease of getting down spikes is amazing. Combined with Gholdengo, hazards were a huge problem, yet Dengo was around before hazards were considered problematic and Gliscor wasn't, resulting in a ban which they said they would be lifting in DLC2 anyway.
I think the best way to say it is, it's definitely a problematic Pokemon that's pretty brainless and able to fit in most teams, that being said I think there are other things to prioritize over it in the meta, kinda same reasoning atm why Gholdengo hasn't been suspect tested.
(when survey comes out make sure to complain js)
KamenOH
formerly DynamaxBestMeta
Im starting to split ends here, but doesn't this also apply to Freeze and Paralysis? As opposed to the 1-3 turns of nothing, which can be mitigated with moves like Sleep Talk and Snore, you cannot do a thing about being frozen. You're stuck there, actually incapable of doing anything because the opponent got lucky. Or, Paralysis, where it's quite easy to proc and results in a permanent speed debuff and a random chance to, wait for it, not do anything. So why is Sleep any different? If anything, it seems that a guaranteed removal of the debuff one to three turns later is better than being permanently frozen or paralyzed, but thats just me talking.
You didnt understand my message, i think its broken. Super centralizing, invalidates a ton of pokemon and playstyles which are down right unviable bc gliscor is a magic guarder with eq+toxic+knock. This combo deals with literally everything besides skarm and corv but both of them cant touch it and are just a safe spot to spike. Brainless and stupid mon, i cant really defend it and if it wasnt so beloved by the fanbase im sure this thing would have been suspect tested at some point.
It was suspected and banned during DLC1, where it was banned by 5%. This thing is super divisive but honestly it's not really banworthy because it's relatively easy to prepare for by just doing what you would do for physical walls but with a slightly different move
TCTphantom
formerly MX42
Personally I find Gliscor a necessary evil for the meta. Is it a bit lame in how splashable and how easily it makes progress? Sure. Is it a bit centralizing? Sure. But would banning it really change much? No, if anything I think Gliscor's presence makes the meta more competitive and fun. As we saw from the late DLC 1 meta, team structures arguably got even more constrained after Gliscor left, rather than them getting freed up. Id rather be in the Gliscor meta than a TingLuZapGlowking meta. I'd say banning it would be a really bad call right now. We obviously have bigger fish to fry. Kyurem is probably going to top out the survey this time (though personally I am kinda fine with it being a dumb dumb balance breaker), and I know folks are starting to warm up to looking into Gouging Fire. But even beyond that, would banning Gliscor "fix" hazards? We have so many good hazard setters at this point. Ting Lu, Skarmory, Hamurott, Deoxys, Glimmora, you name it. Hazards are just gonna be kinda dumb this generation since even if we ban Gholdengo, our removal options arent the best. It also helps that there are a lot more options to pressure Gliscor than last time. It feels a lot healthier.
Honestly, the only mon right now I personally would give a 3 or above right now is Kyurem. Maybe I could be swayed with Roaring Moon or Gouging Fire. Id give a sleep moves ban a 5 because sleep is cringe and lame and has been for a long time, but outside of those I think the meta right now is pretty solid. Not amazing, we still have some issues to sort through, but outside of sleep cheese and Kyurem being a tad worrisome, I think this meta is pretty competitive, diverse, and fun.
Honestly, the only mon right now I personally would give a 3 or above right now is Kyurem. Maybe I could be swayed with Roaring Moon or Gouging Fire. Id give a sleep moves ban a 5 because sleep is cringe and lame and has been for a long time, but outside of those I think the meta right now is pretty solid. Not amazing, we still have some issues to sort through, but outside of sleep cheese and Kyurem being a tad worrisome, I think this meta is pretty competitive, diverse, and fun.
For those that are really struggling with the main 2 sleepers somehow...
Best Hyno Valiant answer:
252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hatterene: 103-123 (32.3 - 38.6%) -- 4.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
If it uses hypnosis he fucked.
Another great Valiant answer is bulky Gholdengo:
Gholdengo @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 164 SpA / 92 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Make It Rain
- Recover
- Nasty Plot
Tanks everything including Hex, and Make It Rain is OHKO. Can even be used as a 1 time counter. Ev spread to outspeed Gliscor. Tera Flying to deal with Tusks and switch weaknesses. Covert Cloak is a placeholder, but it nicely makes you blank Garganacl 100% of the time, and has some other niche bonuses.
Best Darkrai answer:
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 317-374 (78.4 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is assuming Darkrai has and LANDS the very rare focus blast... Otherwise it deals 0 dmg
Also CB Scizor easily survives a few hits from both and can OHKO both assuming rocks dmg. Tera Steel bullet punch for the win (It also deals tons priority dmg to most of the meta so thats always nice)
Best Hyno Valiant answer:
252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hatterene: 103-123 (32.3 - 38.6%) -- 4.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
If it uses hypnosis he fucked.
Another great Valiant answer is bulky Gholdengo:
Gholdengo @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 164 SpA / 92 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Make It Rain
- Recover
- Nasty Plot
Tanks everything including Hex, and Make It Rain is OHKO. Can even be used as a 1 time counter. Ev spread to outspeed Gliscor. Tera Flying to deal with Tusks and switch weaknesses. Covert Cloak is a placeholder, but it nicely makes you blank Garganacl 100% of the time, and has some other niche bonuses.
Best Darkrai answer:
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 317-374 (78.4 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is assuming Darkrai has and LANDS the very rare focus blast... Otherwise it deals 0 dmg
Also CB Scizor easily survives a few hits from both and can OHKO both assuming rocks dmg. Tera Steel bullet punch for the win (It also deals tons priority dmg to most of the meta so thats always nice)
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Wow, that's crazy. I wonder why all the high ladder players who have an issue with Darkrai and Valiant didn't think of just running Gholdengo (and praying they aren't SD/Tera Dark Knock or CM Shadow Ball) and Tyranitar (and praying you just dodge Hypnosis I guess?). Thanks for singlehandedly fixing the metagame!
No problem mate! Just think you are overstimating my advances! The metagame isnt broken, its actually the healthier its ever been and thats why we have resorted to this whole ''Sleep'' discussion circus, because there isnt anything obviously broken.
For the ocasional Tera Dark Knock Off Valiant I guess you can always Tera fairy if tera flying isnt enough for you... If you are gonna argue at least give good arguments.
The sleep discussion seems more aimed at sleep in general than it is at Darkrai/Valiant
Cant fix what isnt broken!
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Gliscor is brainless af, but defensive sets are too easy to exploit with tech like Sub + Tera Flying, which it pretty much has no way of beating barring having the correct teammates to deal with the setup threat, like Clodsire for Ghold and Dozo for boulder. Some mons like Ghold and Gambit own it with Balloon I think. Lacking that immediate punch to beat stuff like Gouging Fire and Rillaboon is annoying & it lacks some of the utility other grounds like Ting-Lu and Great Tusk have in checking Gambit.
It still is the most broken Spiker, but that is not saying much when there are at least 10+ broken ass Spikers between Samurott-H, Ting-Lu, Ogerpon, Skarmory, & even Meow / Garchomp, where the only real counterplay is stopping them from getting set up in the first place, either with aggressive offense or Hatterene. Gliscor being a good Knock absorber is itself very valuable for this reason since it stops other mons from getting their boots Knocked off.
Gliscor is not remotely problematic to me right now. I feel there are ample ways to play around it and Spike sets are far less worrisome than before due to the increased power level of some archetypes.
I'd honestly reckon the powercreep brought on by the Indigo Disk is largely why Gliscor's okay in the tier. I believe there are a lot of things that are capable of downright pulverizing the bat and blasting it apart in one or two blows. Archaludon, Speedeoxys, Darkrai, Raging Bolt, Kyurem and even variants of Gouging Fire. Iron Boulder's Mighty Cleave helps a bit in breaking past its constant Protect spam too.