Funny you say this because I had the same thought the other day
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Suspect]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
U guys ever thought volcarona is a jebait? It got stronger since boots is a thing but it rarely ever sweeps in practise too much priority like sucker punch extreme speed from dnite which +1 tera dragon or fairy doesnt even ohko through multiscale. Last coverage move aside from bug buzz aka tera choice issues too, same problems as it always had since the older generations
Uhh, no???? Like volc is a really good mon. It's typing + flame body means it actually has defensive utility, which is amazing for an offensive mon. Sure, it can be picked off by priority, but two common priority moves in ice shard and grassy glide it resists. It usually has a set of quiver, fiery dance, giga drain/morning sun, and then coverage.
Sure, it can't beat everything, there is a reason why its called the 'matchup moth', but that last moveslot can be anything and thus it can stop a lot of its 'counters' coming in. Heatran? Tera blast water/ground destroys it. Dragons? Tera blast dragon/fairy. A lot of mons have to be scared of volc because you don't know what coverage it has. And it has to be a strong physical hit otherwise as it can take special hits with the increased bulk from quiver. I do think bug buzz is a bit of a bait, giga drain is much better for it as the recovery helps a lot and fire covers some of the same types bug does, psychic types are rare (glowking/hatterene are neutral) so only dark types are good for it.
Also, just because it doesn't sweep all the time, doesn't mean it is bad. It can still punch massive holes in a team's defenses, which are easy cleanup for teammates.
1. most common priority is sucker from kingambit, then espeed from dnite, then thunderclap from raging bolt. less ppl use things like rillaboom and weavile, even then ive played vs gouging fire and rillaboom teams, i had to use the tera to ko gouging fire and suddenly i dont resist grassy glide anymore
2. tera just gives you 1 kill and usually u are just forced out next turn, tera on a heatran/gouging to ko with tera ground next turn rillaboom comes in, u are walled by a dragon or heatran depends which tera u pick, tera water is bad either u take ground or fairy/dragon, water u just get koed by rillaboom and owned by thunderclap, just an inferior tera ground option, if you want something unique tera rock is btr cos u resist e speed from dnite and u destroy opposing volcarona gouging fire and still hit tran neturally and is a great bait to ko pelipper on the off chance u meet rain
3. bug buzz is btr no bug buzz aka instant lose to roaring moon nty
u r just reciting textbook descriptions of the pokemon it is very threatening to warrant the spot on the vr but it is the same as always to me... never that good in practise, ive played with volcarona a lot, same problems as it always has been
2. tera just gives you 1 kill and usually u are just forced out next turn, tera on a heatran/gouging to ko with tera ground next turn rillaboom comes in, u are walled by a dragon or heatran depends which tera u pick, tera water is bad either u take ground or fairy/dragon, water u just get koed by rillaboom and owned by thunderclap, just an inferior tera ground option, if you want something unique tera rock is btr cos u resist e speed from dnite and u destroy opposing volcarona gouging fire and still hit tran neturally and is a great bait to ko pelipper on the off chance u meet rain
3. bug buzz is btr no bug buzz aka instant lose to roaring moon nty
u r just reciting textbook descriptions of the pokemon it is very threatening to warrant the spot on the vr but it is the same as always to me... never that good in practise, ive played with volcarona a lot, same problems as it always has been
oh yea the power is mediocre without too without a qd js, theres other mons that can perform both the roles of breaker and special sweeper in 1 slot, usually i just take fire blast to ko max hp kingambit no matter what it it lands go big or go home
1. I would say that espeed from dragonite is actually less common than both rillaboom grassy glide and thunderclap from bolt. Plus, with bolt you boost up your special defense with quiver, so you actually don't take that much damage from it. Plus, if we said "mon is weak to gambit sucker punch" we should list like half the OU tier in that, many mons are weak to it. And volc can at least have the potential to get a burn with flame body. Sure, you might not resist grassy glide from rilla after you tera, but you simply switch out and try to make sure rilla is ko'd.
2. Again, I admitted that without the right coverage, volc can be screwed. But it is in your benefit, they do not want to basically sack a mon because they think you don't have the right tera. This can be great for volc. The tera rock idea is cool though.
3. +1 252 SpA Tera Ground Volcarona Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 199-235 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Uhh, no I don't think roaring moon is coming in for free.
4. You do realise it has 135 sp.attack right? Only two mons in OU have higher sp.Attack, raging bolt and hatterene. It isn't 'mediocre' without a boost, it still has great firepower (pun intended) and unlike the other two, it has an actually good speed stat. Also, fiery dance gives more snowball potential. Sure, fire blast may be more powerful, but over a long game missing fire blast and the lost special attack boosts will hurt.
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my guess is that earthquake is used in the last slot. sub helps dodge gambit and bolt, and tera lets you eat a hit from ghold, so eq would be most useful.
it is sub sd cc mighty cleave fighting tera flying and rock dents everything for netural coverage fighting and ground doesnt
Turn 8
Landorus, come back!
Go! Volcarona!
The opposing Iron Treads used Ice Spinner!
It's not very effective...
(Volcarona lost 13% of its health!)
Turn 9
Weirdo Faye
withdrew Iron Treads!Weirdo Faye
sent out Roaring Moon!(The opposing Roaring Moon used its Booster Energy!)
[The opposing Roaring Moon's Protosynthesis]
The opposing Roaring Moon used its Booster Energy to activate Protosynthesis!
The opposing Roaring Moon's Attack was heightened!
Volcarona used Quiver Dance!
Volcarona's Sp. Atk rose!
Volcarona's Sp. Def rose!
Volcarona's Speed rose!
Turn 10
Volcarona has Terastallized into the Fairy-type!
The opposing Roaring Moon has Terastallized into the Flying-type!
Volcarona used Tera Blast!
(The opposing Roaring Moon lost 67% of its health!)
The opposing Roaring Moon used Acrobatics!
(Volcarona lost 87% of its health!)
Volcarona fainted!
Go! Landorus (Landorus-Therian)!
[Landorus's Intimidate]
The opposing Roaring Moon's Attack fell!
yh just a worst raging bolt u said it trade off is its slightly faster that is all but 100 speed is nothing these days anyways
Sure, it doesn't have priority like raging bolt, but it also doesn't get screwed over by ground types as easily. Also, that series of events i think shows the opposite. Your opponent was so scared of volcarona, that they were forced to tera a mon, while you still got amazing damage on moon. Now it is weak to thunderclap and ice shard. I would say that is a fair trade. Its about a 1 for one trade.it is sub sd cc mighty cleave fighting tera flying and rock dents everything for netural coverage fighting and ground doesnt
Turn 8
Landorus, come back!
Go! Volcarona!
The opposing Iron Treads used Ice Spinner!
It's not very effective...
(Volcarona lost 13% of its health!)
Turn 9
Weirdo Faye
Weirdo Faye
(The opposing Roaring Moon used its Booster Energy!)
[The opposing Roaring Moon's Protosynthesis]
The opposing Roaring Moon used its Booster Energy to activate Protosynthesis!
The opposing Roaring Moon's Attack was heightened!
Volcarona used Quiver Dance!
Volcarona's Sp. Atk rose!
Volcarona's Sp. Def rose!
Volcarona's Speed rose!
Turn 10
Volcarona has Terastallized into the Fairy-type!
The opposing Roaring Moon has Terastallized into the Flying-type!
Volcarona used Tera Blast!
(The opposing Roaring Moon lost 67% of its health!)
The opposing Roaring Moon used Acrobatics!
(Volcarona lost 87% of its health!)
Volcarona fainted!
Go! Landorus (Landorus-Therian)!
[Landorus's Intimidate]
The opposing Roaring Moon's Attack fell!
yh just a worst raging bolt u said it trade off is its slightly faster that is all but 100 speed is nothing these days anyways
Mons that are faster than raging bolt but slower than volcarona in OU:
Heatran
Dragonite
Gholdengo
Samurott-Hisui
Rillaboom
Glimmora
Great Tusk
Landorus-Therain
Gouging Fire
Kyurem
Gliscor
Sure, volc isn't going to be defeating all of these, but it can still outspeed them, which is good. Plus, it can outspeed a lot more things after one quiver dance, which is a lot better than raging bolt getting some chip and then dying, maybe not even doing that if it is against a faster groud. 100 speed is not the fastest thing in the tier, but it still is a noticeable upside.
actually that is me yes i am very scared of volcarona i was forced to tera to kill it it just proved my point its way worse than the vr reflects dat it doesnt sweep as often as u liked it, i know that guy thought he had a chance to sweep but once again cringe tera problems, its just up there cos its really threatening on paper. anyways, thats my opinion on volcarona deserving of the vr spot but overrated, i dont want to share my teams/replays with people not my friends cos i take time to build them and i have limited time these days but i swapped out volcarona on my latest version of the team and godbless im free from thinking i got a useless mon that cant sweep or do much dmg js (135 spa is mediocre these days unboosted without booster energy or any other boosting item) and is also so physically frail it gets owned by the most common priority in the tier, cos kingambit is literally on every team!!! i just came back after couple of weeks not playing replaced volcarona and some other members and swapping volc out rly helped the team feel much btr helped me get the pts i lost from decayso much easier playing with volc on my team just made it so i had to think so much how to get around the biggest problem aka kingambit. not worth the headache.
maybe every1 has their own opinions thats fine, it is mine i think volc is overrated
maybe every1 has their own opinions thats fine, it is mine i think volc is overrated
Raging bolt deserves a smoggy award for tier’s most fun pokemon
assault vest is solid glue and nothing beats a successful calm mind sweep as the thunderous kaiju ragingbolts all over the enemy team
especially when its sun giving you a boost for nothing
sun teams don’t always need to run from it too, calm mind sets fit like a glove on such a playstyle and choice specs isn’t very viable without surprise or rng, but its a lethal revenge killer and wallbreaker with surprise or luck and doesn’t need set up
but setting up on something isn’t an issue for raging bolt, one moveslot per switch is and thus specs bolt was simply a fade
just one more thing, we need to get serperior out of OU, not because hes broken infact its for near opposite reasons he is WEAK AND MID, hes A- at best in current UU
assault vest is solid glue and nothing beats a successful calm mind sweep as the thunderous kaiju ragingbolts all over the enemy team
especially when its sun giving you a boost for nothing
sun teams don’t always need to run from it too, calm mind sets fit like a glove on such a playstyle and choice specs isn’t very viable without surprise or rng, but its a lethal revenge killer and wallbreaker with surprise or luck and doesn’t need set up
but setting up on something isn’t an issue for raging bolt, one moveslot per switch is and thus specs bolt was simply a fade
just one more thing, we need to get serperior out of OU, not because hes broken infact its for near opposite reasons he is WEAK AND MID, hes A- at best in current UU
I think u mean (nearly) broken the booster energy sets are the scariest with calm mind hit like a truck and can be a sweeper too
DaRotomMachine
I COULD BE BANNED!
I've used it and its really fun to use in front of a passive pokemon. It also beats sun nicely.
You Sub first turn in front of a Torkoal. It switches out and you SD. If the mon in front of you can't break SUb, you SD again. and then if needed you SUb again. Then you sweep.
YOu can also use this in front of hazard setters who are not expecting sub first turn, like glimmora, but it usually runs sash and EPower but it doesn't KO at full health I'm pretty sure
Its my favorite Boulder Set out of the sets out there.
Is gambit still neccesary?
nothing better than subbing on Gliscor's Toxic only for mighty cleave to hit through protect
Necessary is a relative term but it’s still the easiest mon to slap onto a balance/BO team. Offensively, it’s still the best wincon in the game. Defensively, it’s one of the few splashable checks to Pult/Ghold. Basically zero opportunity cost to running it.
Nah, Volcarona is every bit as good as the hype. The only thing saving you from a well played Volcarona is coverage. That’s why it is the matchup moth. The best set is bulky Volcarona. After a single QD it is impervious to special attacks. Flame Body + good typing + Physical investment lets it cheese your physical attackers, making them helpless to stop you later on.
I max out physical defense on Volcarona. It just adds to the amount of set up opportunities. It’s stupidly easy to get the Ubermoth to +2/+2/+2.
Volc is obviously good, and one of the best kyurem answers, but it has surprisingly bad coverage and relies on tera; obviously there are great things that need to tera like garg, so this doesn't hold it back and it uses tera well, and its a solid defensive presence with boots + flame body; if it gets knocked it's over for volc defensively though, which really sucks for it. On HO though this doesnt matter
Very flawed post in many regards. As Moyashi said, every single one of those checks is an offensive check save for the ones you describe that require running niche tera types. Ogerpon matches less well into offense yes but what you're leaving out is the way Waterpon completely shreds through teams that are anything short of full offense - this is especially evident with the fact that your post mentions Knock Off a grand total of 0 times. You used the classic "well it can't run 6 moves at once" argument as if Ogerpon is a Pokémon that's remotely safe to try and scout - by the time you've figured out what safely handles the set you're facing you've already lost a Mon, let it set up, or best case scenario lost an item. This is also evidenced by you freely admitting it requires two checks. Given the 4 kingambit checks I'm already running, the 2 gouging fire checks, 2 Kyurem checks, 2 Rillaboom checks, 2 stored power checks, I'm just wondering how to fit the Ogerpon ones as well? Furthermore "sack a Mon and waste your tera" is not really acceptable reliable counterplay. Half of the so called "checks" you mentioned lose to Play Rough, which you really cannot discount as "it can't run 6 moves at once" because it is by far the best coverage move for it, Trailblaze I would honestly not even consider, I think it's awkward to make work, and knock and encore are big middle fingers to fatter teams and are both extremely disruptive, but don't really compare to the way play rough invalidates half the checks you're describing so I would consider it more than anything else, especially in HO mirrors, namely Kyurem, Bolt, Roaring Mid, Zama, booster exhausted Valiant, chipped Dnite, and the Latis (Latias not even really winning vs other variants so idk why you included it.) The only Pokémon you listed that actually reliably check it are the grasses you described, since pult, though great at revenging and one of the best answers, can't safely come into play rough or even knock. Several are also just niche shitmons like torn T Meowsc Serp and Boulder (who gets goobed by cudgel so idk why you listed it) Though this Pokémon is answerable at the cost of a sack for offense, it is singularly extremely limiting to balance teams, and an auto lose for stall if it's paired with something else stall needs to Tera to beat. There are answers that exist in the metagame but not for all team styles, and Tera Dragon as you described as a check will typically lose to Play Rough, the other common Dozo Tera being Fighting which also doesn't like play rough. "It can't run 6 moves" also doesn't really account for the fact that play rough and knock have complete opposite counterplay - knock turns any "defensive counterplay" (in quotes because this ONLY exists through Tera and even then can be overcome) into a trade (well I beat Ogerpon but it was at the cost of my Tera and now I take 3x spikes every time I come in) and play rough as previously established overcomes a good deal of offensive counterplay. If being legitimately uncounterable is the only criteria for a ban then I guess DNB waterpon because a faster Draco often wins but the overall thin amount of RELIABLE counterplay and the way Ogerpon can put the opponent in dire situations before proper counterplay can be established, as well as balance and stall teams not really having the luxury of accepting a revenge kill or being able to actually slot this counterplay, means that despite not being an unbeatable auto win button (which has never been the criteria for a ban) Ogerpon wellspring is a very broken Pokémon with a very unhealthy effect on the metagame (not only severely limiting balance and stall but encouraging more cheese team styles with Rillaboom Hawlucha etc.)I've seen some people hating on the GOAT Ogerpon and wanting to ban her, making this post to change minds about this mon and expose the truth that Ogerpon isn't broken.
Checks exist. Any two of Kingambit, Dragapult, Kyurem, Bolt, Moon, Gouging, Bulky Rilla, Weavile, Zama, Dnite, Valiant, Meow, Ace, Darkrai, Lucha, Boulder, Latis, Serp, Torn, and various other Pokemon can shut down Ogerpon-W no matter what set it is. Even if you can't fit any of these mons, there are still tera users to shut it down. Volcarona, Gliscor, Landorus, Heatran, and Dondozo are some examples of Pokemon that can run tera Dragon and/or Grass, while there are also underrated picks, particularly Grass Gambit. Anything with existent bulk + tera grass/dragon that can 1v1 a mon it dual resists can do the job though.
Ogerpon has four moveslots. Yeah its broken if its running 6+ moves on the same set, but it cannot. Ogerpon needs STAB and SD to pose a real threat, leaving you with a single slot remaining. In addition to the blanket answers earlier, Ogerpon has even more answers depending on what move it drops. The main options for its fourth move are Encore, Play Rough, and Trailblaze, all coming with major costs for dropping them. Without Encore it loses to Kingambit and Raging Bolt, two top 3 usage mons, in addition to IronPress Steel Birds, while lacking its ability to punish passive moves and gain setup opportunities. Without Play Rough all Dragons hard wall it. Without Trailblaze its ass into offense, not that its good into any good offense team even with Trailblaze to begin with.
Another major weakness is its tera lock and hazard weakness, making it very easy to outplay even without hard counters because it can only come in so many times and can't bluff any weird teras. Shouldn't have to elaborate on this one hopefully.
Some people have been saying Hearthflame is less broken as an argument for Wellspring being broken
Why it is NOT less broken:
- Having Fires as a dual stab resist instead of grass is huge, they are crippled by knock/hazards and Cinderace, Heatran, Torkoal, and Volcarona lose outright leaving only Gouging Fire as an answer to it (and it's a wellspring answer too...)
- The Fire typing makes it resist Thunderclap and Grassy Glide shutting down Rillaboom and Raging Bolt as revenge killers, makes it immune to burns from Cinderace, Dragapult, Darkrai, and Volcarona/Moltres Flame Body.
- It is less reliant on Swords Dance thanks to Embody Aspect, allowing it to pull off trailblaze, encore or an extra coverage move without a severe lack of power, and the tera attack boost also lacks a setup turn to punish it.
- Mold Breaker invalidates would be switchins like Dirge, Tera Dozo, Heatran, and Dragonite.
tldr at least half those checks are fake, it doesn't need 6 moves it has 2 really good options for the 4th move with opposite counterplay, essentially this is all cap and reads like a magcargo arch post
You actually don't switch into Skarmory nor expect a switch because Skarmory loses the 1v1 either way, ogerpon SDs on the switch and 2hkos with cudgel even if skarm idefs on turn 2 and even if high crit cudgel doesn't roll crit
Another huge W for the OU citizens against the oppresive OU Monarchy. Time to let the meta develop and adapt
sir i literally voted do not ban and told people to stop worrying about it not being banned and then my post was about letting the metagame develop and adapt, fuck do you mean oppressive ou moncarchy?
did you read the post you were quoting lol
I think if they did, they would actually read what finch was saying in what they are quoting. But people on Smogon aren't know to be the best at reading (me included, I have many times misread something).
I don't want to sound rude but to me your post seems more like you just want Ogerpon gone because it is good against your favourite playstyle without actually making a valid point as to why it should be banned.
Of course passive teams filled with ground and water types are bound to have a hard time against Ogerpon-W. Pokemon that makes some playstyles miserable have existed for a long time and having blanket checks for offense and HO in the name of Zamazenta and Kingambit is apparently fine so I don't see how Ogerpon being good but not uncounterable as you said makes it broken. Ursaluna also destroys most stalls and no one would advocate for a ban for the reason that it makes an entire playstyle suffer.
Concerning Ogerpon, the classic balances nowadays often have Dragapult with wisp/t-wave to heavily cripple Ogerpon. It also has 4MSS so you won't ever find an Ogerpon that runs Trailblaze, Knock Off, Play Rough, Low Kick, Encore, Power Whip, Ivy Cudgel and Swords Dance in a single set. Yes it is strong but it struggles against a lot of things depending on the moves it chooses. The fact that it can't use any item means that it is very weak to hazards, in particular T-Spikes so you could always use them on Glowking. Also, no matter what moves it run, it will always struggle against bulky grass types so you could either use that or use Tera Grass.
I'm not saying Ogerpon isn't good because it is really good but I just don't see how it could be ban worthy with such a heavy 4MSS, no item, a locked Tera type and a speedtier that makes it very easy to revenge kill even without booster pokemon.
Also, Ogerpon-W making Alomomola players having to think instead of spamming Scald/Flip Turn is a good thing for the tier. Having a good water immunity that can be run on offense (so not Clodsire) is a huge deal for a lot of non passive teams that would otherwise have almost impossible match ups against rain or pokemon like Walking Wake. (Yes Ogerpon gets destroyed by DM but it can at least force some kind of mind game if you have a fairy on your team).
I'll just conclude by saying that not having Ferrothorn and Tangrowth sucks but there are still a lot of options to easily deal with Ogerpon for non offensive team and it's just up to players to try and think a little bit oustide of the box. Without Play Rough, Ogerpon is hard walled by Hydrapple and even with Play Rough it can't even OHKO it at +2 even after rocks so you CAN check its moveset somewhat safely despite what you said.
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