How many people have looked at the meta game if we ban another ten+ mon's? We ban Gambit and Ghold, which could lead to banning Dragapult and Iron Valiant, directly. Now Waterpon, Manaphy, Iron Moth, Walking Wake, Zamazenta, and others may follow suit. And if enough get banned, Garg will follow. How many HO mon's can stay OU with Tera?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
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The implicit problem is that even if we can get a majority enough for a ban, there's a very real chance a large portion of the player base quits over the decision. There's nothing holding them hostage to play this gen, and it is way more likely that people who haven't quit yet write it off as after a tera ban and protest-quit than it is people who have already quit the generation return after it's ban.
Imagine if we barely inch over the line and ban it by 61%. 39% of the player base is almost certainly very unhappy about it. How many quit? 10%? 20%? How many is too much before the inbalance becomes worth having a player base.
It's a balancing act. Obviously we want the most balanced tier possible, but we also want a tier people actually want to play. The two are at times mutually exclusive. It's why the council doesn't like quickbanning stuff. It would get the tier far more balanced far faster but would also make the player base more unhappy and prone to quit.
Popularity shouldn't matter in balance choices, but it does. You see this in other pvp games all the time. Stuff that is implicitly unpopular and anti-fun is frequently unbalanced by having badness imposed on it so no one has to deal with it. Coversely, popular things are frequently buffed so they're always relevant. It makes the playerbase happy.
I mean we have a very large dex, UU will become OU I guess? I'm cool with that, let's see some Seed Sower shenanigans.
That situation will probably stay a hypothetical because DLC2 is dropping in under a month. We’ll get new mons, new move tutors, and the “19th tera type” which is a big unknown factor. DLC2 is by no means a panacea to everyone’s complaints, but it will shake things up and provide a new slate for tera to be feasibility reassessed. The bottom line is that the current meta isn’t a vacuum so we won’t have another 10 bans in isolation.
The main problem with this line of argument is that there's also a lot of stuff only being checked currently by Tera. The list might be smaller, but a large portion of mons are more tolerable because having 2-3 answers per team is more feasible due to tera.
If it's not those mons in particular, banning tera would create problems with something else. Tera is a problem, but the power creep is so through the ceiling this gen that we're banning en masse anyways.
then we eat that bridge when we come to it. we need to focus on what is currently bullshit and not what might in the future be bullshit. and for the record, dragapult has enough answers without gambit and valiant is banworthy already
good riddance to them then. anyone fragile enough to straight-up quit pokemon because their specialest little boy got banned is someone the community could probably do better without. you don't see me throwing down my hat and storming out because buzzwole got dexited
Banning a generational mechanic is a big deal though. It changes what a lot of people play this generation for. Crying about removing a single mon no matter how dominate is a little silly, even changing the whole meta because that happens no matter what, but not wanting to play a generation because the reason why it was distinct from all others before it is a valid viewpoint. Wanting to play something because it's unique not because it's balanced is exactly why we're all here grinding pokemon instead of chess. Objectively, chess is significantly more balanced and skillful than pokemon in any generation. We're suckers for the uniqueness of team variety, surprise reverse uno carding people with weird sets, strategy viability.
oh, i thought you were still talking about ghold. well, for tera you've got a little bit more of a point if it gets banned and an om doesn't pop up to fill the void, but even if the mechanic does get banned (which is still unlikely in my opinion) i doubt the playerbase will hemorrhage players like some people claim it will. after the first tera suspect, almost 60% of the playerbase didn't get what it wanted, and we only lost a couple people who we honestly kinda wanted to lose anyway
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This is a very interesting take and whilst I understand the reasons behind people crying about Kingambit I think at the current moment, Kingambit is in a great spot in the metagame and very well balanced; most definitely not too constraining on the builder.
Kingambit's highest point in the metagame was pre-home, when defensive Cinderace was not too used and the only reason answer to it was Great Tusk and Iron Val, and it was absolutely necessary as the tier's premier revenge killer against common offense threats such as Volc, Baxcalibur, Dragapult and Gholdengo. As the metagames progressed the playerbase has gotten accustomed to Gambit and the more new mons were added frankly there were more threats to deal with, with its lowest point being the release of Pokemon Home where it was heavily contested by Chien Pao and completely shut down by the likes of Urshifu-Water, Zama-C etc (all banned now lmfao). You mentioned that Kingambit has many sets with many different tera types which is true, however many of the tera types are very situational; for example, whilst Tera blast fairy kingambits maybe be good in the sense that it flips the Tusk matchup upside down, it opens itself to being weak to opposing Kingambit's who run iron head, as well as expending your tera, which often may not be worth it. Kingambit tera fairy teams are often super telegraphed, as the other 5 mons are often not dependant on Tera. Fire has the issues where it gains a terrible defensive typing, and only situational in a 1v1 scenario vs Iron Valiant or a Cinderace. Even so, Kingambit often requires very precise gameplay, mostly chipping down the opponents to a reasonable point where it can win lategame with sucker punch - a much harder job in practice against good players. This current meta does not favour Kingambit whatsoever either, with Encore almost being on every single Ogerpon set, as well as the Hazard metagame being very suffocating for Kingambit, as it is either forced to run Heavy Duty Boots or take hazards everytime it comes in. On top of this, Kingambit is the primary sponge for common offensive ghost types, namely Dengo and Dragapult, and if it does not run leftovers it will be chunked in the long term. Even if Gambit does run boots, it would definitely not be its best item as lefties is infinitely better on balance teams and offense often as well, or black glasses/balloon/lum put in much more value. It does not help that Kingambit's full strength is when its teammates are dead, however with the metagame shifting to a more balanced structure and unfavouring of Hyper Offense; it does frankly amuse me that I have been seeing so many posts saying how broken HO is or how ladder is infested with HO when it is not even the most consistent/best right now. From what I have been seeing, there are also heaps of Hawlucha replacing Sneasler on Gterrain teams that have opted to running Encore too; definitely not helping out the Gambit cause.
Kingambit is definitely not constricting in teambuilder; it is a lategame sweeper and very bulky, however every team should have a good answer to it that will win in the long term, either being an encore mon, hazards, a tank like Dondozo/Dirge, Wisp or Spore or Trick; there are so many answers to Kingambit and its ultimately up to the player to pilot around the mon. Me personally I have not had huge issues with Kingambit, and when I now use it it does not feel like an auto win the moment a few of my mons have died, contrary to the pre-home meta. It goes without saying that if you do make crucial errors midgame and just get swept by Kingambit, or your team has no answer to Gambit at all - that would merely just be a teambuilding issue that can be fixed quite easily.
Of course I am not downplaying Kingambit's value as a mon as I still use it quite often, but mostly as a nice revenge killer and great way to make progress against balance, not as a guaranteed 6-0 lategame hypercarry (although I do get into those situations sometimes, albeit very rarely). If Kingambit was truly as overpowered as some people are claiming, then it would have been banned already and survey scores would have been overwhelming. I dont ladder much anymore but in tours where you can scout your opponents for patterns and teams, Kingambit is even easier to deal with/pilot with success as the mon is a great medium for tanking and sponging ghost types, holding the tier together with its reliable revenge killing etc. What I do think is very constricting on the teambuilder is Ogerpon-Wellspring considering its only reliable switchin is Amoonguss or Roost Dnite tbh, but I'll save that discussion for another time
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I am interested in whatever approach we take for DLC2 regarding tiering. My gut instinct tells me there could be roughly 10 unbans, which IMO would be a fine decision should the drops be closely monitored. Here's what I think the status of our current banlist would be should we decide to drop down everything.
Red = will not be considered for a drop
Green = will definetly be considered for a drop
Yellow = edge-case, arguements exist both for and against a drop
This is not going off of anything Finchinator said. This is moreso my personal opinion that I'm doing just for fun.
This post is a bit off topic, but I do like speculating about the future. Keeps things fresh in these typically cyclical discussions lol. It is kind of crazy to think that we are almost at 20 bans, and while most are justified, I do wonder if they are all really neccessary, espicially for some of the bans that happened early on in the metagame's lifespan. I am hoping we are rather liberal in terms of what we unban, as long as we don't hestiate in quickbanning certain offenders.
Red = will not be considered for a drop
Green = will definetly be considered for a drop
Yellow = edge-case, arguements exist both for and against a drop
This is not going off of anything Finchinator said. This is moreso my personal opinion that I'm doing just for fun.
- Flutter Mane
- Iron Bundle
- Palafin
- Annihilape
- Chi-Yu
- Espathra
- Chien-Pao
- Regieleki (we banned it before we realized Transistor was nerfed to a 1.3 boost instead of being 1.5, which makes a large difference in damage calculations)
- Magearna
- Zamazenta-Crowned (green if Gliscor is unbanned)
- Urshifu-Rapid-Strike
- Volcarona
- Baxcalibur
- Ogerpon-Hearthflame
- Ursaluna-Bloodmoon
- Roaring Moon
- Gliscor
- Sneasler
- Darkrai
- Shaymin-Sky
- Giratina-O - (personal bias lol, probably red in actuality)
This post is a bit off topic, but I do like speculating about the future. Keeps things fresh in these typically cyclical discussions lol. It is kind of crazy to think that we are almost at 20 bans, and while most are justified, I do wonder if they are all really neccessary, espicially for some of the bans that happened early on in the metagame's lifespan. I am hoping we are rather liberal in terms of what we unban, as long as we don't hestiate in quickbanning certain offenders.
Looks like you colored this green instead of red.
But seriously, in what world is this Pokemon fine in? More so than some of the other Pokemon in Yellow and Red.
First and foremost, this mon is practically impossible to revenge kill without incredibly strong priority. Like, it can survive Tera Normal E-speed from Choice Band Dragonite.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Grassy Seed Sneasler: 220-261 (73 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Unless you're using Talonflame, most priority requires significant chip damage.
The only other option besides priority that is incredibly strong is Barraskewda in Rain specifically, and Regieleki with Scarf specifically, and that is fucking Adamant Sneasler too. If the DLC gives us Ninjask and Accelgor, it'll be only other 2 Pokemon that can outspeed Sneasler. Ditto is unable to because transform does not copy Unburden boosts, so you're left with just priority (from something with +1 Def or Psychic Terrain up), and 4 whole Pokemon, 2 of which need a certain field condition and 2 that are already fast Pokemon who need Scarf.
Second, unlike other Unburden sweepers with such high Speed like Accelgor, Sceptile, and even Hawlucha, none of them are even remotely as strong as Sneasler and have almost no defensive counterplay. It beats out Hitmonlee as strongest Unburden user while also having dual STABs that compliment one another, Sword Dance, and of course hax. Looking at the Honkalculate;
-Only Gholdengo, Landorus-T (bulky variants), Dondozo, Skeledirge, and barely Clodsire survive more than 2 hits at +2
-Swap Gholdengo/Landorus-T for Gliscor/Okidogi if Sneasler is using Lash Out
-Only the Unawaremons can switch into Sneasler in both accounts
Keep in mind, Grassy Terrain is almost certainly up, so Clodsire only deals 50% at most before Sneasler heals and Gliscor doesn't even 2HKO. This is also WITHOUT Tera as well. Even without extra STAB or super STAB, it starts OHKOing vast majority of things with very little effort late game. Granted, with Tera Sneasler actually has more counterplay and honestly weaker because anything can become Poison or Ghost (not really a point for it, but Tera in general people overlook). Once Sneasler gets in with 1 turn to set up (which is really easy because Rillaboom has U-turn), accounting for little amounts of chip damage you need, you basically win.
AND THEN you have Dire Claw. You managed to keep your Dondozo healthy if you have one, Sneasler user was stupid enough to set up already, now its time to wall it ou- oh wait it put your Pokemon to sleep while attacking. Or it got paralyzed and now you're being parahax. You'd be lucky if Dondozo was poisoned so you don't get paralyzed or put to sleep. Dire Claw is such a bullshit move. You have a 1/6th chance to put something to sleep, a 1/6th chance to paralyze them, and a 1/6th chance to poison them, while dealing damage. STAB 80 BP damage too. Steel types can bypass this because they are immune, but GUESS WHAT? Sneasler has STAB Close Combat. Basically ONLY Gholdengo and Gliscor care very little about Dire Claw thanks to their combined attributes, and Tera Poison/Ghost Garg too if you count it. Every other defensive check to Sneasler is always threatened by Dire Claw, and RNG that heavily favors Sneasler. When Dire Claw is used, you have a 1 in 5 chance to simply not be able to attack (P of para + full paralysis and sleep is about 20%), that also basically determines the game IF you manage to get Dondozo, Skeledirge, Clodsire, etc all healthy enough to beat Sneasler.
It's absolutely absurd that this thing wasn't banned since the beginning, wasn't banned as soon as Rillaboom got Grassy Glide again, and is being considered for a dropping back in OU. Is there like some new Psychic type version of Vacuum Wave that every Pokemon gets or something to warrant putting Sneasler with Pokemon like Gliscor or Urshifu-Water? Is there a leak that says Sneasler retroactively loses Dire Claw and Unburden in DLC2, replacing them with Splash and Truant, deleting all Sneaslers with those from everyone's boxes? Really, WHYYYY?
It keeps Defiant on evolution, Supreme Overlord replaces Inner Focus
genuinely believe somebody could make a better case for testing giratina or dialga-o in the tier than 90% of the brick shithouses listed in green and yellow. i would literally feel less disgust towards my opponent if they sent out the fucking lord of the shadow realm to click defog and will o wisp than fight against another sneasler in my lifespan
(wouldnt mind gliscor getting tested if the new meta ends up being more hostile towards it, but thats just personal bias on my end)
See, the problem is that you may intend to free it with the intent of bringing a Defogger to tier only to realize “oh fuck we just let lose a 0 switchins wallbreaker with 150/100/100 bulk and a good priority move that isn’t even all that slow either”.
Wigglytuff intensifies.
I do agree though that Giratina-O won't ever be healthy in OU. Giratina-A however isn't that strong, has 4 moveslot syndrome and is vulnerable to every hazard. It will be walling much of the Tier, but can't do that forever without support and with 5 weaknesses pre-Tera, Knock Off among them.
What I meant was "if that was still its best ability". Defiant is a fine ability, but outside of intimidate it is basically doesn't exist. Which again speaks to how good Bisharp was that it could have a relatively marginal ability and have been OU and UU for the whole time it existed as a fully evolved Pokemon.
oh absolutely itd be absurd im not pretending it wouldnt lmfao. i just dont think anything in OUBL Hell should ever be freed for any reason whatsoever and i brought giratina up as an example because it somehow is less offensive than most of the banlist while also being stupid and unbalanced for basically every reason imaginable.
perhaps someday we will get a defogger that isn't gholdengo fodder while not having a bst of 680...
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Honestly, don't think there's enough time for the council to run a suspect before the end of the format. I do hope that there is QB action on a couple of mons before the end of the format, so we can see what the format is like without them (Kingambit and Gholdengo). They'll be back in the next format, obviously, but we will feel what a gen 9 without them is like.
This is true if you’re trying to use it as a defensive Pokémon seeing its more defensive stats and ability to hold Leftovers, which is a fair thing to think of first, until you realize it can just slap a Choice Specs on and be just as good of a breaker as Giratina-O lmao
just checked calcs and with a few spdef evs offensive giratina-a avoids the ohko from specs valiant's moonblast and specs pult's draco meteor. as it would turn out freeing a box legend is a bad idea, actually
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New Idea; Perhaps we can free Chi-Yu and simply kill everything before it can set up hazards in the first place? Sounds solved to me!
Instructions unclear, unbanning Regielele to get another spinner in the format.
I mean, Black and White unbanned a previously cracked Excadrill to fix their hazard solution. Maybe freeing Giratina is our equivalent to that
Then again, Black and White was the second most brokenly over the top powerful OU tier (gee and I wonder what's in first place...)
Happy Thanksgiving, OU! I’ll be thankful for the eventual closure of this thread.
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