Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[Chlora]

A key issue Garg had vs Gliscor teams wasn't Gliscor itself, but Clefable, which Garg couldn't really make progress against, and could cripple Garg itself with Encore. Furthermore, Gliscor sort of forced Garg to run Boots over Leftovers. With Gliscor gone, Clef's viability and usage has decreased by proxy, making Garg noticeably stronger than it was in the past. It can also run Leftovers a bit more freely now compared to before. I think its significantly stronger now.

with gliscor being gone i just dont feel like nacl's teammates can slow the game down as often as it'd like to set up safely with the dominance of HO, since it's noticeably weak against common threats like rilla, oger, zama, manaphy, gambit with ihead, etc. has a hard time coming in even if it intends to trade

 

[Chlora]

Although I have constructed an electric terrain team, and they are definetely underexplored, it is for a reason. Apart from quark drive users, maybe raichu alola (but it is a bad pokemon) and maybe sneasler/hawlucha, not a lot of users benefit. And if you want to abuse quark drive, just use booster energy, as that can fit on more playstyles. You're forcing yourself into a few specific pokemon. If you want to use a terrain team or sneasler, just use grassy terrain.

the point is to bank on the abusers to do the heavy lifting, since without no item they can be much more threatening. thats the whole point. just saying "oh use grassy" adds nothing. "you're forcing yourself to specific mons" yeah, obviously, the concept is the same as a weather team: focus on that element. "And if you want to abuse quark drive, just use booster energy, as that can fit on more playstyles" missing the whole point again

 

[Moyashi]

I couldn't agree less. Gliscor was more or less a free opportunity for it to set up, since from my experience barely any Gliscor at higher ladder (my only comparison) used Earthquake at all. You'd need a dedicated Garg check like Clefableor the waste of an item Covert Cloak to stop it, and although that's still true, it's one less mon that it can click salt cure on for free or go for curse.

Earthquake was still a common move. Just because it didn't have it in your experience doesn't mean you didn't have to consider.

SamurrotH in B+? No chance. Mon is still super relevant."
Didn't say otherwise? If you read B+'s description, you'd see that i'm saying Hamurott is strong. However, i don't see much of it when most teams who want hazard support already want Ribombee as their suicide lead. Playing with 2 suicide leads is generally a bad idea, and playing without webs on HO is even worse. If you cast webs aside, you need cinderace, who will turn your own spikes against you, or the not so great at the moment tusk who has a hard time coming in on anything as of late and wastes a turn spinning.

This is just misunderstanding what Samurott does. It's not only a suicide lead and has seen a lot of use beyond this, boots sets being the most common and notorious. Nevermind that Samurott is a good choice in webs with offensive sets as it being able to push big damage while also stacking more hazard is effective.

Heatran also is not B. It's significantly performing at high level tourney play and is a very relevant pokemon."
Again, didn't say it performed well. But the fact you don't see Heatran on most teams should justify that it's not something above B that you can easily fit. It fits my description of B tier, i think.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/scl-iii-usage-statistics.3728856/

Ah yes #12 is not many teams. And a ton of success at that.

Provide an argument for the contrary? Clef and Mola are predictable and thus exploitable, only really fitting on balance. Typh-H is pretty much relegated to a sun scarfer while treads is generally outclassed by tusk in a good amount scenarios. Like i said, they are hard to justify using, but they can succeed

Lolwut. Clef is not predictable. It's still customizable in set and is a great pick for balance and general bulky teams for its longevity. Mola has tremendous value in it's defensive utility and substantial longevity which makes it a very good pick for those teams it fits on. Even then, being predictable doesn't make a mon bad especially if they're very good at their, which they are. After all Dracovish was predictable. And no Typhlosion can't stand out. It's just bad and outclassed.

> "why are quaquaval and munkidori so high?"
duck is good on rain and monkey is really good on balance

Quaq is not good on rain and in general hasn't been for a long time. And no, Munki is not really good on balance or at all. It's too weak and walled too easily.

 

[viivian]

Blissey: stall/very bulky balance only. exploitable, one dimensional, needs tera for ghold, does not check manaphy, runs away from every physical attacker. stall isnt even good atm
scizor: bullet punch defog is not that valuable atm
empoleon: not great as an offensive rock setter, very bad into oger-w
rotom-w: not so fast compared to a lot of prevalent threats with not enough threat potential. bad into oger-w
shocks: decent offensive rocks lead, but glimmora is usually better
enam-t: no reliable recovery, rock weak and mostly neutralities makes for a not so easily usable defensive/bulky setup mon

i suppose thats all fair but i still find that most of these could move up a rank besides maybe blissey and even that could still move slightly higher, preferably somewhere around the C ranks if you arent very optimistic about them

this is getting a little tiring so ill just say that they are simply better in my opinion

yeah but why? im very sorry if these questions are getting irritating but i genuinely was curious on your stance regarding these placements, especially maushold since i find it to be pretty mediocre (especially post-gliscor ban). why do you think it deserves to be B+? or why do you think cerulege is only C?

duck is good on rain and monkey is really good on balance

i find that rain is struggling in this metagame due to the prevalence of ogerpon, which also annihilates quaquaval. so im not quite sure how the duck could be in a good spot in this metagame, though i suppose recieving knock off was pretty huge for it. i see what youre thinking w/ the munkidori placement now but i still think it should move down to C+ or B-. balance as a playstyle has fallen off hard after gliscor got banned, not to mention the type overlap w/ slowking-G and munkidori having serious 4MSS

B is not low. a few posts above i explain this mon's placement

that is true from a general perspective but for heatran in particular it is too low. its been very dominant ever since BM ursaluna got banned and has consistently held a high usage and winrate in high-ladder and SCL and is very good at dealing w/ some of the huge threats running around right now such as rillaboom, cinderace, gholdengo, ceruledge, iron moth and special iron valiant to name a few. it definitely deserves better than B rank

 

[YNM]

Provide an argument for the contrary? Clef and Mola are predictable and thus exploitable, only really fitting on balance. Typh-H is pretty much relegated to a sun scarfer while treads is generally outclassed by tusk in a good amount scenarios. Like i said, they are hard to justify using, but they can succeed

Predictability isn't always detrimental, especially for a support mon. The reason why Clef and Mola are so good is because they are so reliable in pretty much every game, and they do their job perfectly without needing to be extra about it with weird sets. Mola might as well just have one set to fit its role, and that is to be a bulky Water-type with Wish support plus Scald and Flip Turn (and Regen to recover health for free). It doesn't matter if your opponent already knows what your set does, because it's gonna work regardless. Same goes for Clef, it's a reliable mon that puts work in every bulky/balanced team with Stealth Rock, T-wave, Moonblast, Knock Off or whatever you might need for your strategy.
On the other hand, I have yet to see a single Typhlosion-H on high ladder, and it's definitely because it is a cheesy pick that simply isn't good. It's funny how you mention predictability as a problem when Typhlosion might as well be one of the most predictable mons out there with the Scarf Eruption set, which not only gets almost completely walled by Heatran, but it also gets quickly worn down by hazards once you get a chance to set Rocks up. Treads on the other hand is fine, and I'd actually place it higher on the tier. Hell, the whole B row is completely fucked up, as well as other mons that got rated so low for no logical reason. Seeing Ceruledge in the same tier as Chesnaught and Pincurchin physically hurts me, especially after facing SetsuSetsuna and her Ceruledge on the ladder...

 

[Magcargo]

As someone who has been cheesed by Quaquaval far too often due to its ability to run 50 different sets and coverage moves that you would least expect, including options like Ice Spinner, Brave Bird, Aqua Jet, Knock Off, on top of multiple Tera types and setup moves.... B may be a bit too low for the duck.

 

[CheesyBrie]

the point is to bank on the abusers to do the heavy lifting, since without no item they can be much more threatening. thats the whole point. just saying "oh use grassy" adds nothing. "you're forcing yourself to specific mons" yeah, obviously, the concept is the same as a weather team: focus on that element. "And if you want to abuse quark drive, just use booster energy, as that can fit on more playstyles" missing the whole point again

Having briefly toyed with the idea, the real problem at the end of the day truly is that just doesn't do anything besides set up e-terrain. It has both spikes AND toxic spikes, but it's slow, doesn't have Volt Switch (why not????), and therefore the best ways to swtich it out are to
1. Sac it
2. Run Eject Button, which means terrain only lasts for 5 turns instead of 8
3. Yeet it into the stratosphere with Memento

Although it dose free up the Irons in a way that could be useful, it also is basically a negative momentum 5v6 most of the time.
A player much better than I could probably find a neat way to utilize it, as the little thing survives a little better more than you'd expect with 48/95/85 bulk. I think the other downside is actually that Grassy Terrain weakens EQ, which is common on the physical ground types in the tier. That in part helps Sneasler sneasel the sneas out of people, whereas Electric Terrain from an electric type passive mon just welcomes in the ground types.

Again, maybe someone will crack the code and redefine Gen 9 with a flashy team with either Iron Moth or Valiant, but I think it's just a waiting room with hope for a better terrain setter.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Made a tierlist to better reflect my opinions on the current state of SVOU
This is my opinion so it's natural if you disagree. I'm not a particularly good player, i've only peaked 1750ish elo. I'd like to hear your comments on these positions anyhow
These are NOT ordered


S: Very high reward with low risk. None need tera to wreck the opponent's team with ease and minimal team support. Easy to fit on every team, and will bring massive value (with the exception of sneasler, which requires rillaboom, who's also a great mon on it's own).

A+: Highly impactful threats that can easily win you the game if played correctly. They are hard to check and not too hard to fit. Tera brings out their full potential to cheese plenty of MUs.


A: Common powerful threats with massive potential. Easily splashable (even ribombee, since HO is the undisputed best playstyle) with a good risk/reward ratio. All of them bring good utility/defensive utility while providing excellent offensive capabilities (yes, even ribombee).

A-: As strong as A tier, but a little less splashable, harder to play/position and require more team support to bring out their maximum potential. Generally, not as immediately threatening or able to tank as many hits as those in plain A tier.

B-: Very strong and/or useful that are hard to position, slot in and/or play. They require more team support and situation managing to work, sometimes requiring a Tera (like thund-t and skewda) to become as immediately threatening or hard to check as A tiers and above. Solid nonetheless if the team and player piloting them allows it.

B: Entering the niche territory. These mons are strong in their own right, but are either outclassed by those ranked above, were unfortunate enough to be negatively impacted by the tier's development up to the present, or are too hard to fit/play/whatever to justify a higher placement. They are not bad at all, just not good enough to see consistent use and justify on most teams. Not taking them seriously will most likely result in a bad position.
Note: I fully consciously placed everything in this tier with the above description in mind, generally. Even Hands. It's very strong and bulky, in TR or dedicated Terrain teams (lost vs a player ranked ~1800 elo during a suspect run using one) it can become hard to make a worthwhile progress trade against it thanks to it's excellent bulk with good attack to back it up. Quaquaval is similar. Skeledirge would be ranked lower if not for it's ability to wall manaphy with tera.

C+: Hard to justify using these mons. They are not bad, simply outclassed or in unfortunate situations. They can definetely bring success if played correctly, but it's rough to make them work.

C: Mons that either usually only fit as hyper specific answers, or have a hard time being fit in teams for one reason or another. Generally not worth considering.

D+: These pokemon can be useful, but those occasions are far too rare to justify slotting them in. Generally not worth using at all as they do not provide any value in most situations, are easily exploited or fail to perform their roles reliably. Almost always outclassed in every way by those ranking above them.

D: Even more hyper specific than D+. Almost never worth using because common teams are not bothered by them, or easily take care of them. Almost never worth using over something ranked above them, or the roles they perform are simply not worthwhile in the current meta.

View attachment 571933

EDIT: ting-lu was meant to be B, not C. i began with the lower tiers and messed it up as i added new rows

Manaphy on par with the other 3 brokens is cap, Noobtraptales on par with Iron Moth is cap, B tier in general is hilarious, Glimmora Heatran Garg and Dirge on the same level as Munkidori is really funny. Hatterene Clef and Mola in C+ with Typhlosion-H is clown tier, and sure stall may be dead but surely they are above Kleavor and Torterra, no? And Talonflame and Mandibuzz not even ranked when GALLADE is?

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

you know I thought about it: What makes Unburden Sneasler less op than DD Roaring Moon isn't it faster and stronger?

 

[CheesyBrie]

Actually wait a minute... Has anyone experimented with Misty Surge ?
Immunity to status (no burns, paralysis, toxic, sleep, etc.) sounds kinda nice, although the Misty Seed is a SpDef boost instead of Defense.
It's probably nothing, but maybe there's more to these "terrain wars" than we've considered.

 

[YubelVT]

You dont need any speed evs to outrun +1 valiant after unburden, which is the fastest mon that youll see in the meta aside from like transformed ash gren and some swift swimmers. Most sneaslers just throw a lot of it or all of it into hp, since those guys get fried by rilla anyway.

As someone who has tried to run sneasler in ubers as an anti scarfer because I'm stubborn (which is code for refuses to use OTR Caly-Ice), you can cut like 100 speed EVs and still outspeed the scarfed bikes, which in turn are only outsped by regieleki, which is a suicide lead. I know this is the OU tier thread and not ubers, and I know Sneasler sucks in ubers, but this is to highlight how absurdly correct you are. Max Speed sneasler is definitely optimal in ubers because you aren't taking a hit regardless (and also you really want to come in on choiced dragon moves with tera fairy to go to +4). Max Speed is probably optimal in OU too to try and outweasel other Sneaslers (I haven't done the calcs myself but I can't imagine a sneasler can survive a move coming from a sneasler). But again, Sneasler is so absurdly fast after unburden that the only thing you have to actually worry about is priority and opposing sneaslers (and I guess scarf pult but that's a meme I think)

Although I have constructed an electric terrain team, and they are definetely underexplored, it is for a reason. Apart from quark drive users, maybe raichu alola (but it is a bad pokemon) and maybe sneasler/hawlucha, not a lot of users benefit. And if you want to abuse quark drive, just use booster energy, as that can fit on more playstyles. You're forcing yourself into a few specific pokemon. If you want to use a terrain team or sneasler, just use grassy terrain.

It also doesn't help the viability of electric terrain teams that pincurchin is the only setter allowed in OU, which sucks. If we had like, tapu koko 2 which was incidentally good anyway, e terrain teams would be so good, but we don't thankfully.

 

[Roshino]

you know I thought about it: What makes Unburden Sneasler less op than DD Roaring Moon isn't it faster and stronger?

RM's 139 base attack is already higher than Sneasler's 130, and with Booster Energy/sun it would get a free band boost, meaning it actually hits stupid hard even before a DD. It is also quite bulky on the special side, making it much easier to setup, and STAB knock off makes it hit hard while at the same time crippling would-be walls. Having a strong Knock Off makes it more useful if it actually needs to switch out. More than that, Tera Flying made its Knock/Acrobatics/EQ sets have perfect neutral coverage, so it was much harder to switch in, while Sneasler has to actually choose a check to steamroll. You could also roost to improve longevity if you were so inclined. There is also the most important fact IMO: Protosynthesis works without actually requiring sun using BE, and Sneasler's problematic sets require terrain to be set.

Kinda drunk, sorry for shitty formatting

252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 177-208 (35.1 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So even Dozo couldn't actually hold it back without Curse shenanigans

 

[somebodyuknow2]

Actually wait a minute... Has anyone experimented with Misty Surge ?
Immunity to status (no burns, paralysis, toxic, sleep, etc.) sounds kinda nice, although the Misty Seed is a SpDef boost instead of Defense.
It's probably nothing, but maybe there's more to these "terrain wars" than we've considered.

Misty Surge unironically is more useless than , so you might as well make a eterrain team (also bad) for more synergies. At least gets spikes and tspikes, literally just sits there until it dies (no recovery except pain split). It can throw will-o-wisps except oops your own terrain. The only terrain synergy move with misty is misty explosion (lol). Overall the worst terrain by far as it stands.

 

[1LDK]

i added new rows

btw pass the tier list maker i cant find it

 

[YubelVT]

RM's 139 base attack is already higher than Sneasler's 130, and with Booster Energy/sun it would get a free band boost, meaning it actually hits stupid hard even before a DD. It is also quite bulky on the special side, making it much easier to setup, and STAB knock off makes it hit hard while at the same time crippling would-be walls. Having a strong Knock Off makes it more useful if it actually needs to switch out. More than that, Tera Flying made its Knock/Acrobatics/EQ sets have perfect neutral coverage, so it was much harder to switch in, while Sneasler has to actually choose a check to steamroll. You could also roost to improve longevity if you were so inclined. There is also the most important fact IMO: Protosynthesis works without actually requiring sun using BE, and Sneasler's problematic sets require terrain to be set.

Kinda drunk, sorry for shitty formatting

252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 177-208 (35.1 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So even Dozo couldn't actually hold it back without Curse shenanigans

I think the issue with sneasler, on top of the absurd power of the Unburden set, is that it has a second good set. Like with roaring moon you probably knew what was happening and could theoretically get into a position where you could handle it, but with Sneasler the 2 sets have vastly different playstyles and vastly different checks and as such, you always have to assume it's the Unburden set until proven otherwise

 

[Ctann]

I think the issue with sneasler, on top of the absurd power of the Unburden set, is that it has a second good set. Like with roaring moon you probably knew what was happening and could theoretically get into a position where you could handle it, but with Sneasler the 2 sets have vastly different playstyles and vastly different checks and as such, you always have to assume it's the Unburden set until proven otherwise

this isn’t a good take lol, not relevant.

pivot sneasler comes out early and preferably frequently. Unburden is usually waiting in the back and relies on Rillaboom to be optimal. Air balloon isn’t good.

 

[sims796]

Would Rillaboom still be an A+ choice without Sneasler? I really hope so. Grassy is the best terrain by far. Super far. No comp. Rilla is still really nice, plenty of mons can benefit, and I believe Grassy Seed hasn't been explored enough.

 

[SDK03]

Would Rillaboom still be an A+ choice without Sneasler? I really hope so. Grassy is the best terrain by far. Super far. No comp. Rilla is still really nice, plenty of mons can benefit, and I believe Grassy Seed hasn't been explored enough.

Considering all the bulky Waters around and Great Tusk being Grass weak, of course. It helps that it also hard-checks Waterpon and forces Manaphy to Tera, being nice for handling those two until they get suspected.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

you know I thought about it: What makes Unburden Sneasler less op than DD Roaring Moon isn't it faster and stronger?

the only things i can really think of are movepool differences and defensive stat differences. roaring moon had good special bulk and access to recovery. on the other hand, sneasler has solid physical bulk once it eats the grassy seed, and it gets to use both of its stabs

Would Rillaboom still be an A+ choice without Sneasler? I really hope so. Grassy is the best terrain by far. Super far. No comp. Rilla is still really nice, plenty of mons can benefit, and I believe Grassy Seed hasn't been explored enough.

i think it would. there are a decent number of mons experimenting with grassy seed and grassy terrain at the moment. stored power setup mons tend to like the +1 defense, so several of them run grassy seed from time to time. sinistcha in particular also benefits from the power boost. outside of grassy seed, the ogerpons also appreciate the boost in power. i even saw grassy seed gogoat once (i assume grass pelt also), which seems like it could be a very strong anti-waterpon tech based on the fact that it destroyed my waterpon

 

[Carl_the_turtle]

Blissey: stall/very bulky balance only. exploitable, one dimensional, needs tera for ghold, does not check manaphy, runs away from every physical attacker. stall isnt even good atm

>stall/very bulky balance only

Ribombee and Greninja are hyper offense only, Pelipper and Barraskewda and Basculegion are rain only, this isn't a death knell.

>exploitable, one dimensional

It's a blanket check to every special attacker in the tier bar like a quarter of all gholdengo and hat, the former of which it answers with tera.

>needs tera for ghold

fair enough, though committing your tera defensively isn't as big of a problem for stall teams comparatively to offense.

>does not check manaphy

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 178-211 (27.3 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. +1 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 190-225 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 5.8% chance to 3HKO
+6 0 SpA Manaphy Stored Power (380 BP) vs. +6 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 159-188 (24.3 - 28.8%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO

what manaphy set are you running, tera fighting tera blast with tail glow?

>runs away from every physical attacker

yeah that's why it's C-C+ material and not banned to ubers, it's a tradeoff for walling a half of the metagame

>stall isn't even good atm

considering you ranked dondozo, clodsire, corviknight, clefable, and alomomola like at least three tiers too low, this take isn't surprising

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Made a tierlist to better reflect my opinions on the current state of SVOU
This is my opinion so it's natural if you disagree. I'm not a particularly good player, i've only peaked 1750ish elo. I'd like to hear your comments on these positions anyhow
These are NOT ordered


S: Very high reward with low risk. None need tera to wreck the opponent's team with ease and minimal team support. Easy to fit on every team, and will bring massive value (with the exception of sneasler, which requires rillaboom, who's also a great mon on it's own).

A+: Highly impactful threats that can easily win you the game if played correctly. They are hard to check and not too hard to fit. Tera brings out their full potential to cheese plenty of MUs.


A: Common powerful threats with massive potential. Easily splashable (even ribombee, since HO is the undisputed best playstyle) with a good risk/reward ratio. All of them bring good utility/defensive utility while providing excellent offensive capabilities (yes, even ribombee).

A-: As strong as A tier, but a little less splashable, harder to play/position and require more team support to bring out their maximum potential. Generally, not as immediately threatening or able to tank as many hits as those in plain A tier.

B-: Very strong and/or useful that are hard to position, slot in and/or play. They require more team support and situation managing to work, sometimes requiring a Tera (like thund-t and skewda) to become as immediately threatening or hard to check as A tiers and above. Solid nonetheless if the team and player piloting them allows it.

B: Entering the niche territory. These mons are strong in their own right, but are either outclassed by those ranked above, were unfortunate enough to be negatively impacted by the tier's development up to the present, or are too hard to fit/play/whatever to justify a higher placement. They are not bad at all, just not good enough to see consistent use and justify on most teams. Not taking them seriously will most likely result in a bad position.
Note: I fully consciously placed everything in this tier with the above description in mind, generally. Even Hands. It's very strong and bulky, in TR or dedicated Terrain teams (lost vs a player ranked ~1800 elo during a suspect run using one) it can become hard to make a worthwhile progress trade against it thanks to it's excellent bulk with good attack to back it up. Quaquaval is similar. Skeledirge would be ranked lower if not for it's ability to wall manaphy with tera.

C+: Hard to justify using these mons. They are not bad, simply outclassed or in unfortunate situations. They can definetely bring success if played correctly, but it's rough to make them work.

C: Mons that either usually only fit as hyper specific answers, or have a hard time being fit in teams for one reason or another. Generally not worth considering.

D+: These pokemon can be useful, but those occasions are far too rare to justify slotting them in. Generally not worth using at all as they do not provide any value in most situations, are easily exploited or fail to perform their roles reliably. Almost always outclassed in every way by those ranking above them.

D: Even more hyper specific than D+. Almost never worth using because common teams are not bothered by them, or easily take care of them. Almost never worth using over something ranked above them, or the roles they perform are simply not worthwhile in the current meta.

View attachment 571933

EDIT: ting-lu was meant to be B, not C. i began with the lower tiers and messed it up as i added new rows

why is dondozo placed in the same tier as pincurchin? why are blissey and corviknight in the same tier as noivern and land shaymin? why are great tusk and rockpon in the same tier? why is ghold not s-tier and why is rilla not a+? why is clef that far down? what's munkidori doing all the way up there? what is bellibolt even doing on the list?

 

[Return to Zero]

Made a tierlist to better reflect my opinions on the current state of SVOU

You are going to have to walk me through the thought process that led you to put Maushold above Garganacl and H-Sam. Among... many other things.

 

[RS25802580]

Made a tierlist to better reflect my opinions on the current state of SVOU
This is my opinion so it's natural if you disagree. I'm not a particularly good player, i've only peaked 1750ish elo. I'd like to hear your comments on these positions anyhow
These are NOT ordered


S: Very high reward with low risk. None need tera to wreck the opponent's team with ease and minimal team support. Easy to fit on every team, and will bring massive value (with the exception of sneasler, which requires rillaboom, who's also a great mon on it's own).

A+: Highly impactful threats that can easily win you the game if played correctly. They are hard to check and not too hard to fit. Tera brings out their full potential to cheese plenty of MUs.


A: Common powerful threats with massive potential. Easily splashable (even ribombee, since HO is the undisputed best playstyle) with a good risk/reward ratio. All of them bring good utility/defensive utility while providing excellent offensive capabilities (yes, even ribombee).

A-: As strong as A tier, but a little less splashable, harder to play/position and require more team support to bring out their maximum potential. Generally, not as immediately threatening or able to tank as many hits as those in plain A tier.

B-: Very strong and/or useful that are hard to position, slot in and/or play. They require more team support and situation managing to work, sometimes requiring a Tera (like thund-t and skewda) to become as immediately threatening or hard to check as A tiers and above. Solid nonetheless if the team and player piloting them allows it.

B: Entering the niche territory. These mons are strong in their own right, but are either outclassed by those ranked above, were unfortunate enough to be negatively impacted by the tier's development up to the present, or are too hard to fit/play/whatever to justify a higher placement. They are not bad at all, just not good enough to see consistent use and justify on most teams. Not taking them seriously will most likely result in a bad position.
Note: I fully consciously placed everything in this tier with the above description in mind, generally. Even Hands. It's very strong and bulky, in TR or dedicated Terrain teams (lost vs a player ranked ~1800 elo during a suspect run using one) it can become hard to make a worthwhile progress trade against it thanks to it's excellent bulk with good attack to back it up. Quaquaval is similar. Skeledirge would be ranked lower if not for it's ability to wall manaphy with tera.

C+: Hard to justify using these mons. They are not bad, simply outclassed or in unfortunate situations. They can definetely bring success if played correctly, but it's rough to make them work.

C: Mons that either usually only fit as hyper specific answers, or have a hard time being fit in teams for one reason or another. Generally not worth considering.

D+: These pokemon can be useful, but those occasions are far too rare to justify slotting them in. Generally not worth using at all as they do not provide any value in most situations, are easily exploited or fail to perform their roles reliably. Almost always outclassed in every way by those ranking above them.

D: Even more hyper specific than D+. Almost never worth using because common teams are not bothered by them, or easily take care of them. Almost never worth using over something ranked above them, or the roles they perform are simply not worthwhile in the current meta.

View attachment 571933

EDIT: ting-lu was meant to be B, not C. i began with the lower tiers and messed it up as i added new rows

Nice post. I’d recommend checking out the SV OU viability thread. It’s pretty accurate since it’s voted on by a slate of top players.

I am by no means a top player, but as someone who has been floating at ~1800 since DLC1, here are my thoughts/discrepancies in the ranking from mid-high ladder experiences.

Manaphy is way out of its league in S tier, the description of "very high reward with low risk" simply does not apply to it. It loses hard to Waterpon, which happens to be one of the most splashable (no pun intended) mons in the meta right now. Given its middling speed, both the Take Heart and Tail Glow sets are Encore fodder. A solid mon by all means, but much more fitting in A tier.

Gholdengo is by all definitions of the word an S rank mon (or S- if you go by the OU VR; easily on par with things like Gambit). Some might argue that it is THE most meta-defining mon in OU right now. Easy to fit on all team structures with a myriad of viable sets; Scarf, Specs, Offensive Nasty Plot, and Defensive can all bring massive value to different teams. Not to mention that it's the face of hazard stack and contributes to the continued dominance of archetypes like webs, though it can fit everywhere.

Tusk is underrated, easily an A/A+ mon. Not sure why it's ranked at A- because it's only gotten better since the Gliscor ban. It's still one of only two splashable sources of hazard removal in the meta, the other being Cinderace. No reason why Tusk should be lower than mons like Cinderace or Ribombee which are arguably much more one-dimensional.

I think you are really underrating Ting Lu, I've seen it put in a lot of work in games in the top 250 of the ladder. It's the best defensive spiker the tier has now with Gliscor gone. Matches up poorly vs Rillaboom; but it can still tera poison to reliably check it and Sneasler.

Zapdos and Moltres are each worthy of being a rank higher than they already are. They're solid defensive mons that can force decent progress via status spreading. They've only gotten better with the Gliscor ban and are among the most splashable flying types in the meta right now. Moltres is particularly great to punish mons like Rillaboom and Gambit with burn as a defensive wall; meanwhile, Zapdos leverages its better speed to be an excellent pivot.

Clefable and Landorus both deserve to be multiple ranks higher than they already are. Both are excellent stealth rockers. With magic guard in a hazards-heavy meta, Clef will always be rather solidly viable. Lando's intimidate can put in decent work, it's still an excellent compressor of ground + electric immunities, and I believe its offensive sets are rather underexplored right now.

I think in general you are overrating several poorly viable mons like Hisunian Typhlosion, Hisunian Arcanine, Ursaluna, Iron Treads, Pincurchin, and several others; I genuinely don't see any of these mons being used effectively in high-ladder. Maybe that's just my experience? But they all have glaring flaws that preclude them from OU usage and would appear to drop them several ranks lower than what you have.

Again, these are just my thoughts. I appreciate the post, it was an interesting read! At your convenience, if you could link up the Tier Maker that you used, that would be cool too :)

 

[Leo1x]

Made a tierlist to better reflect my opinions on the current state of SVOU
This is my opinion so it's natural if you disagree. I'm not a particularly good player, i've only peaked 1750ish elo. I'd like to hear your comments on these positions anyhow
These are NOT ordered


S: Very high reward with low risk. None need tera to wreck the opponent's team with ease and minimal team support. Easy to fit on every team, and will bring massive value (with the exception of sneasler, which requires rillaboom, who's also a great mon on it's own).

A+: Highly impactful threats that can easily win you the game if played correctly. They are hard to check and not too hard to fit. Tera brings out their full potential to cheese plenty of MUs.


A: Common powerful threats with massive potential. Easily splashable (even ribombee, since HO is the undisputed best playstyle) with a good risk/reward ratio. All of them bring good utility/defensive utility while providing excellent offensive capabilities (yes, even ribombee).

A-: As strong as A tier, but a little less splashable, harder to play/position and require more team support to bring out their maximum potential. Generally, not as immediately threatening or able to tank as many hits as those in plain A tier.

B-: Very strong and/or useful that are hard to position, slot in and/or play. They require more team support and situation managing to work, sometimes requiring a Tera (like thund-t and skewda) to become as immediately threatening or hard to check as A tiers and above. Solid nonetheless if the team and player piloting them allows it.

B: Entering the niche territory. These mons are strong in their own right, but are either outclassed by those ranked above, were unfortunate enough to be negatively impacted by the tier's development up to the present, or are too hard to fit/play/whatever to justify a higher placement. They are not bad at all, just not good enough to see consistent use and justify on most teams. Not taking them seriously will most likely result in a bad position.
Note: I fully consciously placed everything in this tier with the above description in mind, generally. Even Hands. It's very strong and bulky, in TR or dedicated Terrain teams (lost vs a player ranked ~1800 elo during a suspect run using one) it can become hard to make a worthwhile progress trade against it thanks to it's excellent bulk with good attack to back it up. Quaquaval is similar. Skeledirge would be ranked lower if not for it's ability to wall manaphy with tera.

C+: Hard to justify using these mons. They are not bad, simply outclassed or in unfortunate situations. They can definetely bring success if played correctly, but it's rough to make them work.

C: Mons that either usually only fit as hyper specific answers, or have a hard time being fit in teams for one reason or another. Generally not worth considering.

D+: These pokemon can be useful, but those occasions are far too rare to justify slotting them in. Generally not worth using at all as they do not provide any value in most situations, are easily exploited or fail to perform their roles reliably. Almost always outclassed in every way by those ranking above them.

D: Even more hyper specific than D+. Almost never worth using because common teams are not bothered by them, or easily take care of them. Almost never worth using over something ranked above them, or the roles they perform are simply not worthwhile in the current meta.

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EDIT: ting-lu was meant to be B, not C. i began with the lower tiers and messed it up as i added new rows

You are doing my Friend Weezing-Galar dirty, how is he rated D Tier?
I feel like it is more of an C+ or B Tier Pokemon. It has a lot of favorable Matchups versus a lot of the top threats in the metagame currently and can utilize both Levitate as well as Neutralizing Gas very well. Also it has a great supportive Movepool on top which enables it to be useful in a lot of circumstances. It is hard to fit on most teams and depending on the Matchup can struggle a bit with consistency but I feel like D rank is not giving it enough credit, not even on the actual Viability Ranking Thread as it is only ranked C Tier there as well which I think is too low.

 

[Chlora]

>stall/very bulky balance only

Ribombee and Greninja are hyper offense only, Pelipper and Barraskewda and Basculegion are rain only, this isn't a death knell.

>exploitable, one dimensional

It's a blanket check to every special attacker in the tier bar like a quarter of all gholdengo and hat, the former of which it answers with tera.

>needs tera for ghold

fair enough, though committing your tera defensively isn't as big of a problem for stall teams comparatively to offense.

>does not check manaphy

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 178-211 (27.3 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. +1 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 190-225 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 5.8% chance to 3HKO
+6 0 SpA Manaphy Stored Power (380 BP) vs. +6 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 159-188 (24.3 - 28.8%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO

what manaphy set are you running, tera fighting tera blast with tail glow?

>runs away from every physical attacker

yeah that's why it's C-C+ material and not banned to ubers, it's a tradeoff for walling a half of the metagame

>stall isn't even good atm

considering you ranked dondozo, clodsire, corviknight, clefable, and alomomola like at least three tiers too low, this take isn't surprising

Trust me on this one i got reqs on gliscor using stall. Blissey gets PP stalled hard and straight up gets used for setup fodder by take heart sets. Consider that lots of manaphy are leftovers, and to beat manaphy you actually need to KO it, not just sit on it. You always want soft boiled cm shadow ball for gholdengo, and i used stealth rock on the last slot, so no seismic toss to even dent it. Most blissey at the time used shadow ball to beat dengo because it was a necessity