RudeLiees
formerly Xr Kartana
U can switch to a valiant resist lol. Like
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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this is one of the reasons that tera dragon is getting popular lately (another one is waterpon)
or red card amoonguss, which fucks over booster energy sets extra hard
…come to think of it, it screws up non-acro sneasler too…
…hmmmmm, methinks amoonguss may be a very solid pick once ghold is out of the picture…
ok? forcing tera on gliscor is still good because it didn't let the fat user tera their fatties, and again, it got rid of gliscor's incredible defensive profile
Man, I usually go back and read all of this, but nah.
What is Zapdos doing in OU nowadays? Does it still get the job done even without being a defogger? Is it able to threaten
and 
with Heat Wave?
Is there a world where
is decent in OU? It seems like an excellent check to outside of tera.
It's got excellent bulk, lots of options for sets (assault vest, SD, Bulk Up, Slow pivot with Volt Switch, probably more). It can use tera to probably tussle with
( I think it's typically tera grass?)
I don't know if it really beats Gliscor, but it can tank an EQ, threaten Ice Punch, and then if Glisc tera Waters, you have Electric stab.
It's probably been tried and just doesn't work in a world where Lando-T, Glisc, Great Tusk, and probably other checks I can't think of exist.
But just curious if anyone has had any success with it!
What is Zapdos doing in OU nowadays? Does it still get the job done even without being a defogger? Is it able to threaten
and with Heat Wave?Is there a world where
is decent in OU? It seems like an excellent check to outside of tera. It's got excellent bulk, lots of options for sets (assault vest, SD, Bulk Up, Slow pivot with Volt Switch, probably more). It can use tera to probably tussle with
( I think it's typically tera grass?)I don't know if it really beats Gliscor, but it can tank an EQ, threaten Ice Punch, and then if Glisc tera Waters, you have Electric stab.
It's probably been tried and just doesn't work in a world where Lando-T, Glisc, Great Tusk, and probably other checks I can't think of exist.
But just curious if anyone has had any success with it!
I actually weirdly enough think that if Ghold goes, Gliscor won't be anywhere near as problematic, as without Gholdengo its fairly safe to bring in a Corviknight on it to defog since its Ground and flying stab gets blanked, and it can iron defense on neutrally hitting moves.
Basically in short Corviknight actually becomes a lot better and actually a good answer against hazard stacking Gliscor answer if Ghold is out of the picture, since it doesn't have to worry about Ghold coming in and stopping it from switching in. This is kinda why I am against banning Gliscor even if i'm not bothering getting reqs because Gliscor to me feels like a case of it being OP due to stronger stuff around it that enables it.
Edit: Yes Gliscor is obnoxiously hard to 1v1, but I really do not think we should have suspected it first as Gliscor really does feel enabled by a stronger Golden Joe in the meta. I think if we get rid of Ghold Gliscor becomes far easier to deal with as corviknight is an actual defensive switch in against it in a meta without Ghold
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well, some advice: when you're using red card amoonguss as a valiant check, watch out for psyshock and knock off. psyshock doesn't kill even at +1 if you're the standard 252/208+/48 defensive spread (unless they also have 3 layers of spikes up) so it still does accomplish its goal of forcing valiant out, but it chunks you really hard—manageable since it's amoonguss and healing is its bread and butter, but still best to avoid. knock off is much more of a problem because it prevents you from activating the red card, but if you play things right, valiant usually switches out anyway or gets spored (or toxic'd or sludge bombed, depending on whether you're running those and what would be the most optimal move). best practice when dealing with valiant in general is to scout the fuck out of it
as for walking wake, it's still great, but what i believe to be its most potent set (specs in sun, tailored for proto to boost speed) has fallen off since torkoal's usage has dropped, and it doesn't take too kindly to hazards being all over the place
If people ever have questions about tiering or the metagame, feel free to check out my new project OU Office Hours! You can ask any appropriate question about OU there and I will publicly respond in an effort to be more transparent and help everyone understand what’s going on.
Clef, while not a full-on wall like Dozo, thrives in this meta due to its utility options and Magic Guard being phenomenal in a meta where hazard removal is limited. It also helps check important threats like Zama, Physical Valiant, Pult, and ofc Gliscor.
The most influential set is the Wishpass set imo. Several tier staples like Tran, Kingambit, Rilla, Wogre, and Tusk appreciate the being healed up to keep wrecking havoc. It is helped by Clef’s great matchup into passive shit. Clef has other options to play around with like Encore, Trick + Barb, CM, Cosmic Power, etc. It’s stats should make it seem awful in a power crept meta, but it is an example of how important a good typing, ability, and movepool are.
I think it's amazing how Clefable hasn't gotten a single stat buff and has managed to be the most annoying thing in existence in 5 separate gens, one of which doesn't even have the fairy typing that adds to its defensive profile.
ammm ummm akstualli, in gen 6 clef got 10 points into her special attack besides her new fairy typing [nerd]*
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bro was holding his keyboard upside down
Kingambit Tera Type Section:
Kingambit can do anything it wants tbh :/
I once lost to a tera normal facade gambit in high 17s while I was 2 games away from reqs for gambit's sus. (It was like 1 am)
I've never done reqs ever since.
Yeah, hopefully next DLC solves all our prayers with most of this.
Obviously Corv is a special case, but like, Ghold technically makes all of these "unreliable" in a sense.
I think the discussion around Gholdengo should be at least somewhat nuanced, because the idea of blocking removal isn't exactly new, and I don't think the amount of targets that Gholdengo succesfully blanks is proportionate to it being the standalone issue (basically just Corv).
I've been running these removal options off of their current standard smogon sets, Mandibuzz currently is already niche enough as is, and most of the time it does not run defog, but instead a set with Iron Defense/Foul Play/Knock Off/Roost.
Also defog hawlucha is bad, just use weezing-g
Specs Kingambit to really fuck with the trick users
HUH?I interrupt your casual one liner back and forths for an in depth analysis of a peculiar element of SV OU.
Yo what's up, I think a lot of people are very dissatisfied with the current meta, and there's so many different problematic elements floating around that make it especially difficult pinpoint exactly what the issue is.
Wiith Gliscor, Gholdengo and even more running around and possibly being put under the ban lens, I think it's important to talk about the state of the current metagame, and in particular one move especially that I think is the root cause of many of our problems, Spikes.
It's no secret the hazards metagame has shifted greatly from gen 7 to gen 8, and arguably even more from gen 8 to gen 9. The increased distribution of Spikes is a primary component of this, as demonstrated below:
Gen 8 Spikers:,
,
Gen 9 Spikers:,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
(technically)
In gen 8, Spikes weren't as popular as they were on, the selection of pokemon that had access to them were sparce, you were essentially limited to running Mew on HO, Ferrothorn on BO/Balance and Skarmory on Stall/Semistall. However now, you pretty much have the freedom of running whatever pokemon you want, and there's a decent chance that mon has spikes access.
Before I talk about removal and it's reduced distribution as well, I think it's a decent question to ask why spikes? What makes spikes much better than every other type of hazard? Well when we compare hazards, I don't think I need to explain as much why Tspikes and Sticky Webs aren't very comparable, one is a lot easier to remove, by virtue of just having a grounded poison type, while webs are stuck on being on an HO archetype, on a subpar setter. Stealth Rocks however, is also quite commonly used, and has many similarities to spikes. I think it's difficult to draw the line at this, because ever since gen 2, hazards have been a very important tool in forcing progress, and a lot of the game focused on the control of such hazards, wether it be setting them up for your own and spinning your opponent's away, or removing them altogether with defog.
Now, in general, spikes simply hits for more damage 90% of the time, especially when we have multiple layers, but is this provable? Like obviously we have some "gut" feeling that spikes simply do more damage during a game, I was curious so I decided to tally up all damage percentage of all Pokemon used in OU from the S to C ranks on the VR:
Stealth Rocks Spikes (1) Spikes (2) Spikes (3) Rocks + Spikes (1) Rocks + Spikes (2) Rocks + Spikes (3) Average Damage Rounded: 0.14 0.1 0.13 0.19 0.24 0.27 0.34 Average Damage: 0.144921875 0.0984375 0.13127625 0.196875 0.243359375 0.276198125 0.341796875 Median Damage: 0.125 0.125 0.1667 0.25 0.25 0.2917 0.375
Now the thing here is, this kind of graph isn't super reflective of much, because teams aren't running 6 random pokemon from this list, they obviously build in mind so they have resistances to rocks and what not. Now a flaw with this list is that it doesn't account for Heavy-Duty-Boots, even though a ton of pokemon run it an exceeding amount of the time. To correct this, I ran a new graph, changing the hazards weaknesses of pokemon that run Boots over 50% of the time, these ended up being the new results:
Stealth Rocks Spikes (1) Spikes (2) Spikes (3) Rocks + Spikes (1) Rocks + Spikes (2) Rocks + Spikes (3) Average Damage Rounded: 0.11 0.08 0.11 0.16 0.19 0.22 0.27 Average Damage: 0.105859375 0.0828125 0.11043875 0.165625 0.188671875 0.216298125 0.271484375 Median Damage: 0.125 0.125 0.1667 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.3125
Now this brings a comparison that feels a lot more true, we see that on average, spikes now deal a bit more damage than rocks when we have two layers up, and that when we have 3 layers they deal over 1.5x as much as rocks! So while setting up a single layer of spikes tends to not be as worth as setting rocks up, using it twice or more nets more damage on average.
Again, it's hard to directly take this information as fact, because there's obviously more intricacies that go into teambuilding, but we start seeing why Spikes can be seen as more oppressive. Being able to be stacked is an inherent advantage over rocks, because you have the ability to use it again to stack even more damage on top of usual, while risking wasting more turns in the eventuality your opponent is able to remove those hazards.
Now, I'd argue, that The opportunity cost of setting multiple layers of Spikes this generation, is offset by the heavily limited distribution of hazard removal this generation, including the total lack of reliable hazard removal.
So here's once more a comparison between last gen's removal options, and this generation's removal options, all based on their official smogon sets, and wether or not they include removal. I also include what I call "reliable hazard removal", the way I define it is any pokemon with removal, with access to reliable recovery, wether it be through 50% recovery moves or Rgenerator access.
Gen 8 Removal:,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
Gen 8 Reliable Removal (Recovery):
This is also ignoring that there's a few other pokemon that are also able to run defog, but it's just not their optimal set, there's a ton of other ones that are just outclassed as removal options,,
and
occasionally run defog on very niche sets.
Gen 9 Removal:,
,
,
,
,
Gen 9 Reliable Removal (Recovery):
Gen 9 Conditional Removal:
So first of all, there's a dramatic decrease of Removal in general, no duh. But the main thing we also see is that there now exists only one Reliable Removal Option, Corviknight. Now obviously, we see the metagame adapt in essentially the only way it can, either you run Great Tusk, or you run Heavy-Duty Boots, because all the other options are niche, or you're corviknight and get blocked by Gholdengo, which is also very common.
Now I don't think we'd be having as many problems as we're having if there was an increased distribution of removal options, because the rise in the distribution of spikes is in no way proportional to the increase (or lack thereof) of removal options.
Now I think an interesting point here to make is about Gholdengo. An interesting thing is that it's actually been banned in NatDex, a metagame where there is increased removal options, which sounds somewhat paradoxical, because I think Gholdengo is a fine Pokemon in this current metagame. Blocking defog as a move isn't necessarely a "broken" aspect, it creates interesting dynamics around having to use it as a removal option. However it doesn't help that the only Defogger gets stone walled by Ghold, anyway:
I don't believe Gholdengo is responsible for the oppressiveness of hazard stack, and attribute it more to the increased distribution of Spikes as well as the decreased distribution of Removal.
Now obviously, acting on banning Spikes would be a monumental tiering decision, one which I don't particularly think we can act upon before DLC2 comes around. There's also obviously the chance that there is an increased distribution of removal, which alleviates a lot of the current issues around hazards.
However, I'd like this post to highlight the fact that in this current metagame, I think the solution that would be the healthiest as well as the one with the least collateral damage would be banning Spikes. (Also maybe Ceaseless Edge, idk how that'd work out :P)
TLDR:
Spikes are busted, ty for reading
Mid ladder players happen to love the way it easily spreads the best status in the gameMan, I usually go back and read all of this, but nah.
What is Zapdos doing in OU nowadays? Does it still get the job done even without being a defogger? Is it able to threaten
Is there a world where
It's got excellent bulk, lots of options for sets (assault vest, SD, Bulk Up, Slow pivot with Volt Switch, probably more). It can use tera to probably tussle with
I don't know if it really beats Gliscor, but it can tank an EQ, threaten Ice Punch, and then if Glisc tera Waters, you have Electric stab.
It's probably been tried and just doesn't work in a world where Lando-T, Glisc, Great Tusk, and probably other checks I can't think of exist.
But just curious if anyone has had any success with it!
RudeLiees
formerly Xr Kartana
I’ve run scarf kingambit and got pretty decent result, but its a noobbait most of the time.
+2 252+ Atk Sneasler Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 438-516 (114 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Even if Sneasler has dire claw in lieu of gunk shot, it has a 50% chance to not take a static para after two consecutive contacts. Zapdos is not a reliable check.
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I'm 100% convinced that every mandibuzz user below 1600 is convinced that it can somehow defog on gholdengo. Stop that. Just click knock off with Tusk
On a similar note, it feels genuinely illegal any time my Heatran survives a ground move untera'd. Taking 60% from an opposing heatran's earth power should not be legal
On a similar note, it feels genuinely illegal any time my Heatran survives a ground move untera'd. Taking 60% from an opposing heatran's earth power should not be legal
RudeLiees
formerly Xr Kartana
It’s at -1000 ladder lol ?
Leafon can be very good in sun, but why tropius, he haven’t niches in OU
Btw avoid duplicates' post, it's better to edit your original message
bro won with tropius once time in randbats and decided that it definitely worked in OU (it did not (when you're guaranteed to have a good pokemon that set sucks))
I can sort of bring myself to agree with some of this, and obviously there is enough nuance to the Gholdengo discussion that it needs to be considered carefully. However, you have to understand that the hazard blocking situation Gholdengo creates definitely extends to far more than just Corviknight. Its hazard blocking capabilities are further advanced by its bulk, status immunity, and set variety, in addition to Tera that makes for a complex pool of matchups that it can pick and choose. I'm not saying Gholdengo is necessarily super broken or anything, in fact I would go as far as to that say that it obviously isn't; but GOG is a very unhealthy and centralizing ability on an already great mon. It facilitates a metagame where it is the sole benefactor of hazard stacking while almost everything else suffers outside of it looking for counterplay. I mean this with respect, but you can't take a standpoint that separates Gholdengo as an individual problem from GOG. They are one in the same, and if its ability is causing this much turmoil in an already hazard-removal-starved metagame then you have to root it at the source of the problem.
From what I have witnessed, we would have a lot more options for advancing the metagame if it went; from that point on would we be able to decide if mons like Gliscor are still banworthy. I don't necessarily agree with the direction we've taken in removing Gliscor first. Equally, I have witnessed what Gliscor can do-- ridiculously long games and constricted counterplay suck, but I find them to be symptoms exacerbated by whatever wild metagame we've found ourselves in. This comically long and exhaustive knotball of offensive threats has left everyone a bit confused and the correct direction isn't obvious, but I don't think we'll go anywhere better before banning Gholdengo.
I do think people miss some of the forest for the trees when it comes to Gliscor and Gholdengo, because it's not just hazard stack that makes them unhealthy. Gliscor being able to set spikes ad infinitum is a key and likely the biggest part of why it should be banned, but it's also an obnoxiously hard to kill status spreader and even potential sweeper, along with having excellent utility as both a mon with knock off and as a knock off absorber. Having spikes clearly doesn't inherently break a mon. Gholdengo, meanwhile, isn't just unhealthy because it has good as gold, it also has an incredible and synergistic typing with very well distributed stats, recovery, boosting moves, and spammable stabs.
The conversation shouldn't be solely focused on what removal good as gold uniquely limits (Corviknight, and Mandibuzz if that counts as viable) or what Gliscor can spike against (most everything, but Corviknight is 9/10 times a counter able to stall it out with pressure). Both mon's full kits need to be looked at, and with their full kits both mons are unhealthy and deserve suspects. Gliscor being first doesn't change that, and Gholdengo being first wouldn't have eliminated the other elements of Gliscor that are still obnoxious as hell to deal with.
The conversation shouldn't be solely focused on what removal good as gold uniquely limits (Corviknight, and Mandibuzz if that counts as viable) or what Gliscor can spike against (most everything, but Corviknight is 9/10 times a counter able to stall it out with pressure). Both mon's full kits need to be looked at, and with their full kits both mons are unhealthy and deserve suspects. Gliscor being first doesn't change that, and Gholdengo being first wouldn't have eliminated the other elements of Gliscor that are still obnoxious as hell to deal with.
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