Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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No doubt in my mind that kingambit is the most pressing issue in the tier. The ease of using screens post-dlc is lowkey a huge buff for kingambit.

ursaluna-bm is next up in my opinion. I’ve been using a semi-spdef scizor to kiiiinda take a hit or two and try to CC back. It’s not a good defense against Luna lol, but pretty sure nothing really is.

waterpon & manaphy are good but a little team preparation goes a long way to avoid being wrecked by them. Not worried about gholdengo or Iron Valiant at this time.
 
:manaphy: Manaphy. Featuring a status healing Calm Mind. Who thought this was a good idea? But seriously I don't think anything can stand up to his thing.
imo take heart isn’t the issue w manaphy rn, w some defensive investment it fits rlly nicely into most ho and veil teams as it’s able to take hits with or without veil, setup w tail glow, and muscle through most of the metagame. even waterpon isn’t that reliable bc of ice beam or dazzling gleam after tail glow
 
No doubt in my mind that kingambit is the most pressing issue in the tier. The ease of using screens post-dlc is lowkey a huge buff for kingambit.

ursaluna-bm is next up in my opinion. I’ve been using a semi-spdef scizor to kiiiinda take a hit or two and try to CC back. It’s not a good defense against Luna lol, but pretty sure nothing really is.

waterpon & manaphy are good but a little team preparation goes a long way to avoid being wrecked by them. Not worried about gholdengo or Iron Valiant at this time.
I second it.Kingambit's Shadow Veil ability makes him very difficult to kill, and he has access to powerful attacks such as Shadow Ball and Gunk Shot.
 
With iron Valiant on the radar, it think there needs to be a discussion about booster energy. I rarely see anyone say anything about it but in reality, from my experience on the game booster energy while its very nice it is very unhealthy, because it destroys creativity on the game. It has made the use of choice scarf irrelevant. And given the fast pace of the its 1 time use its amazing so, a way to make iron Valiant less prevalent in every team its to have a look into booster energy as an item.
 
With iron Valiant on the radar, it think there needs to be a discussion about booster energy. I rarely see anyone say anything about it but in reality, from my experience on the game booster energy while its very nice it is very unhealthy, because it destroys creativity on the game. It has made the use of choice scarf irrelevant. And given the fast pace of the its 1 time use its amazing so, a way to make iron Valiant less prevalent in every team its to have a look into booster energy as an item.
Booster energy should only be banned if it breaks multiple mons. So what does it break? An argument could be made for Iron Valiant, and perhaps for Walking Wake (I don't think it's super broken but it is obnoxiously powerful). What else, though? Roaring Moon fell off hard, booster energy is good on Great Tusk but not its best set, Iron Moth is far from broken, and the broken paradox mons in Flutter Mane/Iron Bundle are too much even without booster energy. And the rest of the paradox mons range from decent but niche to mostly useless.

With all that, I don't think booster energy really needs to be looked at in the present moment. It's a good item that pushes two mons to be borderline, but I don't think it explicitly breaks any.
 
Kingambit deserves to be there. I’ve seen it survive a +1 Vaccume Wave from Bloodmoon Ursaluna.
+1 0 SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 256-304 (75 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Vacuum Wave vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 256-304 (69.3 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Vacuum Wave vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 256-304 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vacuum wave isn't stab, is only 40bp, and luna often invests most of it's evs into bulk instead of spatk. Even +252 spatk luna isn't guaranteed to ohko gambit because vacuum wave kinda sucks.
 
+1 0 SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 256-304 (75 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Vacuum Wave vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 256-304 (69.3 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Vacuum Wave vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 256-304 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vacuum wave isn't stab, is only 40bp, and luna often invests most of it's evs into bulk instead of spatk. Even +252 spatk luna isn't guaranteed to ohko gambit because vacuum wave kinda sucks.
Still quad effective. It’s not the best move, but still.
 
imo take heart isn’t the issue w manaphy rn, w some defensive investment it fits rlly nicely into most ho and veil teams as it’s able to take hits with or without veil, setup w tail glow, and muscle through most of the metagame. even waterpon isn’t that reliable bc of ice beam or dazzling gleam after tail glow
take heart is part of the issue w manaphy bc it could be take heart or tail glow, we just don't know. on most balance/stall teams pex or another bulky water or something with high spdef can come in and tank the hit but status isn't reliable if manaphy can just heal it with hydration rest on rain teams or take heart. then manaphy tera's and uses tb electric or smth to completely obliterate pex and all the other bulky mons that can wall it. revenge killing isn't easy into a take heart set because it set's up spdef too and under veil it's hard to kill or it could invest in physdef to thwart revenge killing.
 
non-council member non-ou forum user opinion, no pr thread so low wordcount xd:

-bloodmoon should be immediately suspect tested, like, today. as of yesterday, really.
-ogerpon-water is probably the 2nd best mon in the meta, esp what it does for the mon below
-mana is 3rd best, and last i'd consider any action on currently. seems manageable for now.

rest of the radar is lol at best and offensive to a point of confusing less-educated ppl at worst. esp valiant/gliscor but council alrdy (majority wise, i hope to god) knows this
 
non-council member non-ou forum user opinion, no pr thread so low wordcount xd:

-bloodmoon should be immediately suspect tested, like, today. as of yesterday, really.
-ogerpon-water is probably the 2nd best mon in the meta, esp what it does for the mon below
-mana is 3rd best, and last i'd consider any action on currently. seems manageable for now.

rest of the radar is lol at best and offensive to a point of confusing less-educated ppl at worst. esp valiant/gliscor but council alrdy (majority wise, i hope to god) knows this
I think, playing off what you said here, the mons above the "on the radar" are the ones they're looking at more urgently, while the others are just being glanced at. Ursa BM/Ogerpon/Manaphy are the standout issues (kingambit too imo but that mon is never getting suspected anytime soon), and the others aren't nearly as bad--which is why they're below.
 
:ogerpon-wellspring: With Dracovish gone we have... a lesser Dracovish. I never thought I'd see the day of STAB Ludicolo coverage being oppressive, but here we are.
can stand up to his thing.
Having played with the likes of Ludicolo in older lower tiers where rain is manual (and damp rock isn't banned), grass + water is a deceptively good if you have a coverage option that handles grass and dragon. Like Ice! Ogerpon doesn't get ice coverage, but it knows Play Rough, so dragons have to be careful, and other than that, it doesn't seem to have any good answers for grass types. So you want a bulky grass type with a good secondary stab, that probably can resist play rough (or knock off) and doesn't worry too much about weird off coverage options like superpower or zen headbutt. But like, Ferrothorn doesn't exist right now, and Venusaur doesn't either and probably wouldn't be comfortable in OU even with the sun. I might say Gorilla but grassy terrain seems to help Ogerpon more than anything.

Oh but there is Amoonguss but is the mushroom able to do anything substantial to Waterpon? Does Sludge Bomb hit hard enough?
 
Oh but there is Amoonguss but is the mushroom able to do anything substantial to Waterpon? Does Sludge Bomb hit hard enough?
but can waterpon do much to the shroom in return?
0 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 176-210 (58.2 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
versus
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 91-108 (21 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 23-27 (5.3 - 6.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 34-40 (7.8 - 9.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 119-140 (27.5 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

This isn't meant to be an actual ogerpon set, but I chose 4 good moves. Meanwhile it's a 4hko at best (without an SD) against amoonguss while the shroom 2hkos back.
 
The beauties of Sleep Clause. Unless your team is *only* physical attackers you should either switch in an expendable member to be put to sleep, and then switch in either a pokemon faster (meowscarda, greninja, talon, dragapult etc etc) which can just OHKO the mon (meow ONLY if running banded/if full hazards are setup -t spikes). Or just bring out a mixed attacker that can conformably deal with a SS mon.

Jumpluff, the fastest of the pokemon you mentioned (disregarding driftblim if it doesn't have its unburden proc which can be dealt with with the mons mentioned above) get OHKO'd by every mon I mentioned
252+ Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jumpluff: 288-339 (81.3 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jumpluff: 288-339 (98.9 - 116.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jumpluff: 780-924 (268 - 317.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jumpluff: 277-327 (95.1 - 112.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jumpluff: 282-332 (96.9 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jumpluff: 380-450 (130.5 - 154.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jumpluff: 288-342 (98.9 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Most mon's who want to use it are already low on HP, faster and want to get back to full *and* can survive a hit from the pokemon using either their bulk or the -attack drop.

cough cough also if you have sleep clause which you should since we are on the ou forum then you shouldn't have to deal with being slept with your whole turn and i know i mentioned it before but it should be stated again cough cough
firstly, use your randbats calculator. All evs are set to 88 with a neutral nature, and levels must be taken into account. Secondly, your calcs don't even make sense: you calc'd Band Meow (which is NOT guaranteed to be the set, idk the exact percentages, but I'd guess it's about 50%) and Talonflame, which at least makes sense, but then Specs Pult and Greninja???? Were you trying to prove that Jumpluff loses to strong special attackers? Uh, yeah, no shit. You seem to be arguing against something I did not say. Strength Sap Jumpluff is NOT overpowered, and I did not say that. What I did say is that it is a no-skill spam move because if you don't have the proper tools to beat it (something to sleep fodder and then a strong special attacker), you literally can't beat it while the Jumpluff can just click the one move over and over. No skill involved. And thirdly, your strategy to supposedly "beat" jumpluff is to A: Sack a pokemon to sleep and B: switch in a faster threat that doesn't die to 2 acrobatics AND doesn't care about a strength sap. Does that not seem at least annoying to you??
 
Oh but there is Amoonguss but is the mushroom able to do anything substantial to Waterpon? Does Sludge Bomb hit hard enough?
but can waterpon do much to the shroom in return?
0 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 176-210 (58.2 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
versus
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 91-108 (21 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 23-27 (5.3 - 6.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 34-40 (7.8 - 9.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 119-140 (27.5 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

This isn't meant to be an actual ogerpon set, but I chose 4 good moves. Meanwhile it's a 4hko at best (without an SD) against amoonguss while the shroom 2hkos back.
0 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 58-70 (19.2 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO
This is what we like to call a "win-lose scenario"
Amoonguss as a Waterpon check seems nice. Regenerator for consistency, resists it's STAB combo, is neutral or resistant to most of its coverage like Superpower or Stomping Tantrum. But the issue is what can amoonguss do? I mean the plus side is that Sludge Bomb + Spore covers it's options, but you need support to make sure this is set. If we were to pull up that Sludge Bomb calc again,
0 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 176-210 (58.4 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Oh hey it KOs. So yea Amoonguss can def check Waterpon -- it just needs proper positioning because are you seriously wasting a tera on your waterpon?
0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 98-116 (32.5 - 38.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


I wouldn't call it a win-lose scenario at that point. Just pray it's not a +2 Zen Headbutt inbound
 
On a separate note, does anyone have any predictions on what we get from the lower tiers and what they get from us in the shift?

I think we get Alomomola, and we probably will be getting Tornadus-t, as i've been seeing a lot more tornadus-t on the ladder, thanks to the the utility it got back in Knock Off that it was really crippled by losing. So even if we don't get tornadus-t this shift, we definitely are getting it next shift. Also thinking we might get Rillaboom (but i'm even less sure on it)

As for drops other than the ones we already know are gonna drop and the loyal three: I predict Heatran and Toxapex are gonna be UU after the next shift, and that UU gets sandy shocks back.

I could be wrong, but i'm just trying to predict this stuff for fun from what I have observed.
 
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Gholdengo should be the number one suspect priority. I disagree with prioritizing Blood Moon, it is just another big numbers mon that can honestly just be quickbanned, we have enough big numbers mons. Gholdengo is the keystone of the entire meta and its presence shapes every single team at the builder level. A Gholdengo suspect is far more consequential than testing another overpowered breaker imo.
 
A Gholdengo suspect is far more consequential than testing another overpowered breaker imo.
which is the exact reason why it should happen last, if at all. the most controversial suspect tests should happen in the most balanced version of a meta to make sure there aren't people coasting to their reqs with broken teams and zero understanding of the meta. the lack of balance during suspect tests likely affected the outcome of both the tera suspect and the kingambit suspect
 

TCTphantom

formerly MX42
Kinda surprised Alolan Ninetales didn't make the radar, considering it was on both of the surveys.

I'll just give my thoughts on these.

:ursaluna-bloodmoon: I do think the meta is in a tenable position for the next two or three months, but if we have to test anything Blood Moon is probably my first target. It's so fat and can crush balance and stall on its own. Unlike other stall breakers though, it feels like it can more consistently go 1 for 1 against aggro, making it not dead weight there. I don't think its impossible to keep this OU however. It does have positive qualities I like for the meta, namely how bulky it ends up being. CM just feels like a solid mon to throw on teams to help ease the pains of builder rn. Obviously it makes some of those pains worse in its own right, but I don't know if I would vote ban on it.

:ogerpon-wellspring: I think Waterpon, while nuts, is pretty healthy for the meta. Its set up sets feel a lot more manageable than its Fiery counterpart. Not getting that free +1 attack boost makes it a lot easier to deal with offensively. It still is a scary set up sweeper, but it wouldn't be in my top 3 concerns personally.

:manaphy: This would be my third test if anything. Manaphy is pretty nuts on both Veil and Rain teams. It is a great Tera abuser that just nukes things after a tail glow. It also helps a ton that its 100 speed feels less like a hindrance now. The metagame is a lot kinder to base 100 speed threats since Choice Scarf has fallen out of vogue and the meta has trended a bit slower this gen due to how good Zamazenta, Cinderace, Meowscarada, Greninja, and Dragapult are for speed control. I think its a bit gross right now, but I would probably test Blood Moon first.

:Kingambit: Gambit is still the best one size fits all wincon in the meta. Nothing has changed on that front. I'd prefer to do a Gambit suspect in Wave 2, especially if we do a soft reset for the Indigo Disk meta. It's a bit of a necessary evil at the moment.

:gliscor: :Gholdengo: I am lumping these two together because they are part of the same problem. Gliscor imo is the tipping point where the hazards meta feels completely borked. Its such a fat pokemon that has so much utility that sets up hazards so easily. IMO, the problem with Hazards rn isnt the lack of removers, its Gholdengo. The stupid string cheese warps the hazards meta around itself and is so goddamn gross. I know testing Ghold would be a huge undertaking right now and would certainly be a major shift, but I feel it would do a great job of preparing us for the Indigo Disk. I do not want Ghold's influence on the hazard game looming over the next meta as well, skating by as we deal with more pressing matters like Tera.

:iron-valiant: Honestly, Valiant is fine and easily the mon rn I have the least of an issue with. I think its presence in the tier is just a positive one as a whole.

Bonus thoughts
:ninetales-alola: Veil is so annoying and I am worried about how it will affect things in the Indigo Disk and forward. It enables so many sweepers to become super toxic. I'd be open to testing Alolan Ninetales right now, but I also kind of like the niche it adds to the meta. Veil Offense adds another flavor of weather to the tier and a whole teamstyle that makes the tier more diverse. I like how we have many different playable offensive team styles. Veil, Weatherless, Sun, Rain, BO, heck Trick Room even works. I like that diversity and I think A Tales adds to the tier more than say, Blood Moon.

:darkrai: :volcarona: Maybe if the tier settles down further, we test these? At least test Darkrai after we resolve Tera. Or drop both if we do a bit of a soft reset with The Indigo Disk? I can dream
 
which is the exact reason why it should happen last, if at all. the most controversial suspect tests should happen in the most balanced version of a meta to make sure there aren't people coasting to their reqs with broken teams and zero understanding of the meta. the lack of balance during suspect tests likely affected the outcome of both the tera suspect and the kingambit suspect
I disagree, I just think it’s a gigantic waste of time to run a test on yet another clearly unhealthy probably broken nuke when the actual “problem” with the entire hazard fiesta meta that is Gen 9 goes unexamined. Waiting until the end like Mega Sableye (which happened after Gen 6 ended) is the worst possible outcome. There’s going to be even more broken junk released in DLC2; imo the more relevant question is what does the playerbase want Gen 9 to be?
 
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