Is there a reason why banning Gholdengo would not help with the hazards meta? The post from NJNP just said it's been discussed immensely and that it didn't need to be explained any further, but I don't see how a mon that completely invalidates any hazard removal other than Tusk is not stopping contributing to the hazard meta.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
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MunkiDori is the only one who has a good chance of staying OU imo thanks to its good special attack and pretty decent speed, though it will most likely need to run a choice scarf set to stay relevant, as its too slow to sweep without team support.
Okidogi might stay OU thanks to its bulk, but I feel like its just not bulky enough on the special side to truly get going, at least without again, solid team support.
Fezandipity, no, its got solid special defense, but nothing else to truly compliment itself or set it apart from other walls in the tier.
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The only thing I think that would help with the hazard meta is if gamefreak would give us a defog tm to deal with it better, because defog is in short supply this gen
Munkidori is probably the best one but still had faults like being forced to use Focus Blast and sharing same speed as Enamorus.
Okidogi is solid too, but held back by Sneasler being the better Fighting/Poison type, even if Okidogi checks it and has moves Sneasler would kill for. It’s also slow, slower than Great Tusk which typically is bad thing for Poison types, unless you have regenerator.
Fezandipiti is definitely the worst by a long shot.
It’s stats are fine, but its movepool is absolute garbage. It has a total of 3 things to “threaten” stats what so ever (including status moves), and only 1 way to beat Poison what so ever. Being Double Kick, Heatwave, and Tera Blast. With Fezan unable to touch 2 whole types what so ever, Fezandipiti lets them in for free to do what ever they want.
For reference, even with full investment and neutral nature, Fezandipiti only OHKOs Scizor with Heatwave about 80% of the time and fails to OHKO Scizor without investment. It also fails to OHKO Offensive Kingambit with Double Kick, even when using Technician.
If Fezandipiti got at least one of T-spikes, spikes, stealth rock, knock off, hypnosis, thunder wave, will-o-wisp, etc, it might have a small niche since then it could actually have something to do against most Steel types and Poison types.
Keep in mind it also has issues with Gliscor, Garg, and even Clefable if it isn’t running physical poison moves, and most physical attackers in general can usually just hit hard anyways.
I'm tired of people saying sneasler is the better poison fighting type, because even if sneasler is, they don't do the same things and fit on different team styles and that's what bothers me when people say that even if its true to some degree.
Dogi is more of a bulky offense/balance focused pokemon that can fit on teams that Sneasler typically cannot, as it just doesn't have the longevity or bulk to be on anything other than hyper offense, even if Sneasler is a very potent threat on hyper offense that can clean up very easy. That's where Okidogi differs from Sneasler as an offensive pokemon, it slots more naturally into those types of teams and fits far better in them due to longevity and bulk even if Sneasler is the more threatening pokemon.
Yeah Ghold checking so many offensive threats is the main reason I can't say it definitely is suspect worthy. It isn't really even "Broken checks broken" because Ghold by itself isn't broken in order to check the stuff that it does, but its ability having a chokehold on hazard removal is what is broken imo. Removal options would still suck, but simply Corviknight being able to defog would alleviate alot of the problems of the meta. But again, banning Ghold also brings a big number of problems
That would definitely help a lot but most defoggers would still just be invalidated by the existence of Gholdengo
Tldr; fight fire with fire
The issue is that when you look at Gholdengo its just not a broken pokemon, even if its very flexible in what it can do and as powerful as good as gold is as its just not fast enough or strong enough, or hell even bulky enough, to be considered broken even if its obnoxious in its dynamics on the meta.
And in a weird way, ghold actually does help prevent hazards on your side of the field against mons that have to manually hazard set so Gholdengo both helps and hurts against hazard spam in a weird way
I just don't understand how Gholdengo isn't suspect worthy if the big issue with the metagame is hazards and it's absolutely contributing to the hazard spam meta but virtue of invalidating almost all hazard removal. It might not be banned as a result but I can't see a legitimate argument that the spikes setters should be tested before the mon that fundamentally makes all spikes setters more potent in the metagame by pushing out almost all removal options.
I don't think it's a good idea to ban or suspects teat spikes or Ghold until Dlc 2. Something that is definitely for sure is we are going to get Defog and Roost as a tm again. If knock off is a tm again then why not Defog. The mons that I can see getting Defog again: Gliscor, Empoleon, Torn, maybe Lando, Zaptops, Moltres, that's about it unless I missed someone which will be good. Anyways Ogerpon is one of the best new mons in the dlc 1, I don't want to see this Mon ban at all but that's me lol. My personal favorite return mons are Gliscor, Empoleon, and Mandibuzz. People are sleeping on Mandibuzz which is weird. I think it's incredible. Infernape is good as well, Specs nukes a lot of mons like Lando, Tusk, Ghold, even Gliscor. Empoleon getting roost is what it needed the most and it definitely going to get defog again. Gliscor is so good in this meta, I won so many games because of this Mon. So freaking good but it's going to get better when it gets Roost and Defog again making it more annoying and will be have top 10 usages
I mean if Gholdengo didnt exist I would be more likely to run Clef, Amoonguss, Blissey, Conk, and other pokemon that could deal with these pokemon even better since they have actual defense stats
The issue is never that gholdengo is broken, its overcentralizing is the issue. It forces too many specific things to deal with it.
Also in that way, any pokemon is good against hazards. A great way of dealing with hazards is just going offensive and punch into them as they setup hazards. Any pokemon with an offense stat can do that. The problem is not any pokemon can totally prevent hazard removal in the way ghold does.
as funny as this is, gholdengo can't switch in against gliscor and trick it without sacrificing itself in the process because gliscor literally always runs eq and frequently runs knock off as well. most other trick/switcheroo mons run into the problem of being poisoned by the toxic orb (or, if they're immune to poison, being eq'd). but magic guard clefable, on the other hand…
The issue i see here is hazard spam is so good because it cannot be removed easily. Its very easy for someone to spam up all their hazards with a mon like glimmora and then keep them up forever. Even being able to defog once would be enough to handle this. The problem is you cant really with gholdengo's existence. Even if the opponent ran taunt gliscor to block defog, it still would be relatively easy to just get corv or some remover out on something else and defog as they switch to gliscor. Or just run spin. WIthout ghold, hazard spam teams literally need both another good ghost type and a taunt user, and also play much more aggressively to keep hazards up. In short, without ghold, hazard spam is way harder to run. I just need that one turn of spin/defog bro..
If hazard is the problem, hazard is the problem, not Gholdengo.
Gholdengo is realistically blocking Defog from exactly just Corviknight.
Every other user of Defog/Rapid Spin either beats Gholdengo or is just bad regardless of Gholdengo's existence.
So ban Gholdengo for every team to run Corviknight?
Gholdengo is realistically blocking Defog from exactly just Corviknight.
Every other user of Defog/Rapid Spin either beats Gholdengo or is just bad regardless of Gholdengo's existence.
So ban Gholdengo for every team to run Corviknight?
Yeah I know Okidogi and Sneasler do different things, but if between the 2 physical attacking Poison/Fighting types, you typically would rather choose the one that is faster and can cheese any check with Dire Claw. Yeah Okidogi has merit like being able to more reliably beat Gholdengo and Gliscor, and also checks Sneasler itself, Sneasler usually wins or cheeses games on the spot. If you aren’t running sweeper set you also still have pivot options too, which Sneasler does better thanks to its Speed and access to U-turn, even if it‘s frailer.
Okidogi obviously does fit better on different playstyles, but over Sneasler is the better choice most of the time.
i figured it would have to be a poison or steel type pulling off this trick because you dont want to lose your pecha berry to poison. i chose gholdengo because i assumed it would lure in gliscor, although when i think about it a little more gliscor doesn't like switching into ghold that much. clefable couldn't reliably do this because getting poisoned would mean losing the pecha berry
Kenpwnchi
formerly Pwndkthnx
Let's not act like Gholdengo isn't dropping shit. It's ranked what it's ranked for a reason, you know. Now, if hazards are the ACTUALLY problem, then maybe they should be suspect tested. Just some food for thought. Since we're on the topic, I'm gonna speak about hazards. In a singles environment, setting some type of hazard(s) is almost imperative. Singles involves a lot more switching than in a doubles environment, so hazards are WAY more pivotal. If you don't have Defog, Rapid Spin, or something that gets rid of hazards, you're literally shit out of luck. Essentially, this means you HAVE to have a mon that can use a hazard removing move. But since we're playing in, what I consider, a "modified meta", there aren't many options when it comes to mons that have hazard removal moves. If that's not "centralizing", I don't know what is.
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I wouldn’t run Blissey anyways until it getd its movepool fixed.
But I see Gholdengo similar to Landorus-T in a way. Where as you trade off being a stronger check or counter to X, Y, and Z, and become a check to A, B, C, D, K, L, O, W, X, Y, and Z. With Gholdengo being able to deal with a wider range of Pokemon, it makes teambuilding less constraining. If you have 5 mons and your answers to Sneasler, Iron Valiant, Enamorus, Zapdos, Zamazenta, Meowscarada, Hatterene, Cresselia, Rillaboom, Slowking-G, Lilligant-H, Ursaluna, etc. are all either non-existant or shakey, Gholdengo is there to at least check them so you don’t get steamrolled by them.
Yeah individual Pokemon can check or counter these Pokemon too (besides Sneasler. It and Gliscor are literally Sneasler’s only counters), but they then lose to some of the other Pokemon. You also can lose out on solid offensive pressure with Make it Rains.
Gholdengo in short is what holds the Metagame together currently and would constrict teambuilding if it were banned.
Wait I've been working all day long and now catching up WHY IS FERROTHORN HOMOPHOBIC
Weirdly enough, I've seen the most usage out of Fezandipiti. Fully spdef invested, it staves off some really nice things, like Valiant or Special Kommo. Roost and U-turn plus Toxic Chain gives this thing a niche already, but it has many utility options in Beat Up (Tchain), Icy Wind, Acid Spray, Tailwind, Taunt, U-Turn, and Toxic. Its pivot capabilities are comparable to a special Corv, and it does a phenomenal job at spreading toxic with Beat Up hitting Ghold, leaving only Kingambit and Gliscor (icy wind does 30%) as immune to it. It also has all 3 relevant setup trio of Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, and Calm Mind so you could run an offensive set to be funny. Tera Steel lets you beat Ghold and Munki more easily and gives resistance to Poison and Steel attacks coming your way. Tera Water is a generally all-round good defensive type and also lets you beat Ghold easily, but you lose your immunity to toxic and you lose to Zapdos. Tera Flying lets you sit on Gliscor. Basically, using it on your team, you need to have a good counter to Gliscor and Kingambit. Both pokemon are potentially broken and incredibly hard to solidly counter, which I what I think holds this pokemon back a little bit. If we ever get around to a Kingambit test, I think this will be solidly OU. As it is, it's a bit underwhelming with both running around EVERYWHERE, but it still has incredible pivot capabilities.
Well lets not act like gholdengo isnt also blocking hazard removal from Tusk, Torkoal, and Mandibuzz. It's harder for sure, but a lot of cases with hazards you just need one turn to remove hazards. Aggressive gholdengo playing can block these turns or setup for situations where you can keep offensive pressure.
A common scenario you can do is: on a turn where tusk could potentially spin, you go ghold. Ghold either blocks spin and forces it out or it dies. If it dies you throw out an offensive sweeper such as Speed Valiant. At this point the tusk player can either spend the next turn getting rid of hazards and allowing the val to setup or attack the val and leave hazards up. If it lets Val setup, Val can just win there depending on sets. If it attacks Val, the hazard spammer can just go into another offensive mon that beats tusk, Ogerpon for example, and break through the remainder of the team by just spamming moves and letting hazards do all the chip work for it. Swap the offense mons i mentioned around differently depending on defensive structures/different tusk sets but this overall core can easily keep up both offense and hazards with the mere existence of ghold. It doesnt have to do anything here other than exist with good as gold.
You could say this is the case with any ghost, which is true. But most ghosts cant be slot in as easily, answer as many things, or block defog as well.
Ban Gholdengo for every team to run either Corviknight, or Mandibuzz, or Conkeldurr, or so hazard spam is crippled by running Dragapult or a worse ghost, all of which I can spore or twave to gain turns back from the offensive pressure giving me more turns to potentially spin.
for those of you who don't actually know, because an in-joke is only funny if you're in on it, here's a rundown:
r/stunfisk, the biggest competitive pokemon subreddit, allows shitposts on sundays. a popular genre of shitpost there is "[unrealistic or irrelevant thing happens], how does this affect the meta". this post was made and became really popular, especially because of this reply, which was meant to be posted to a different subreddit and has absolutely nothing to do with the question
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