Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[DaddyBuzzwole]

It'll be at bare minimum a month. The meta is less than a week old, and we need to sift through the meta and find what is broken. Once those are gone, mons that weren't good have a chance to find a niche. It'll be probably another week until a viability list is created. Once new toy syndrome dies down and people settle on what's good, then a ranking will be created.

Edit: I decided to include some examples.

Previously, Bax had a strong hold on the meta and outclassed Garchomp completely. With Bax gone, Chomp can take it's place as a strong, physical dragon type with scale shot.

Right now, Manaphy is legal, but many people are calling for it to be banned. If it does, some ground types might become more viable (like Great Tusk, tho he may be fine now anyways.)

A9T is also enabling HO very easily rn. If it gets the boot, mons like Alomomola who like a slower style of play we become more viable.

It takes time for all the variables to settle, so it takes time for what is viable and what isn't to reveal itself.

another example is dipplin, which is currently sitting at a mere s+ but will move up to s++ once ogerpon-harpsichord gets banned because she's the only thing that can remove its eviolite aside from niche stuff like mold breaker lucha, tinkaton, and great tusk if you forget to run sticky hold. (and, of course, the ou staple of gastro acid knock off victreebel, but that set is on the way out because it usually prefers to run swords dance salac this generation)

 

[Schpoonman]

counterpoint use Gholdengo


I don't even wanna know what someone just posted, but if its something sus to do with Ogerpon I really do not want to know

Ground Tera Blast is a thing.

 

[pika pal]

Ground Tera Blast is a thing.

Does Ground Tera hit anything else, because Sneasler also has stuff like Lash Out and Fire Punch for Gholdengo given Tera is a commitment.

 

[Cuddly]

I fucking despise Sneasler. "Ogerpon is so broken ban Ogerpon" no, ban sneasler. Trickle down balancing doesn't fucking work. Sneasler is fucking obscene in the pressure it applies even when it's in the back. One wrong move with a single layer of (non toxic spikes) hazards down and you're liable to get swept. Sneasler is easy to check in a vacuum, but it has the movepool and base stats to muscle through most of its checks. Unburden is ridiculous on a pokemon that doesn't actually need to swords dance in order to be a threat. There's literally zero reason to keep sneasler in the tier other than the fallacy of "high ladder balancing will balance lower ladders" because that doesn't work.

I’m surprised there hadn’t been any tiering action against Sneasler seeing how uncompetitive it is. Not even change to sleep clause.
Hopefully Rillaboom getting Grassy Glide again helps out on that department.

Does Ground Tera hit anything else, because Sneasler also has stuff like Lash Out and Fire Punch for Gholdengo given Tera is a commitment.

It hits Okidogi and Poison types in general.

 

[Harmless]

Has anyone tried sinestcha yet? I didn't read the first few pages but I think it might be a good meme. In particular I found a very stupid way to """"""""""""""""beat"""""""""""""""" ogerpon with it. The ability shield, of course!

troll logic (Sinistcha-Masterpiece) @ Ability Shield
Ability: Heatproof
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Matcha Gotcha
- Shadow Ball
- Strength Sap
- Foul Play

With this, you can survive +2 ivy cudgel (no tera because then you don't even need ability shield) and tera dark foul play is a OHKO. I have not used this but it seems kinda funny. Not wholly practical though. Don't think this is exactly what you'd want to blow your tera on.

+2 252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Mold Breaker Ogerpon-Hearthflame Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ability Shield Heatproof Tera Dark Sinistcha: 127-151 (36.7 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Tera Dark Sinistcha Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 339-400 (112.6 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

again, this is a meme set, I wouldn't expect good results from this lol. It also implies you did a slow pivot or sacked something to get sinistcha in for free.

On a more practical note, I think there could(?) be merit to sinistcha as a defensive mon. It's type isn't great, and neither is it speed, but it's defensive profile isn't bad. There's a few fun hits it can take at max defense (I tried spdef but most of the main targets just kill you anyways/you don't threaten them back). Not to mention it can keep itself healthy pretty easy with strength sap and matcha gotcha. It walks great tusk like a dog assuming you do not fear knock off. Which you should but non knock off variants beware

fun calcs for kidz

4 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 102-120 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 7.3% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 148-176 (42.7 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 146-174 (42.1 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO what a sorry sack of shit nice 1.2%dumbass. Pls ignore rocks.

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 284-336 (82 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO streets aren't ready for this one

0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatproof Sinistcha: 144-170 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO not sure why im putting this here but hey look heat proof clutch

252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatproof Sinistcha: 126-150 (36.4 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Libero Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 146-174 (42.1 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Sneasler Dire Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 100-118 (28.9 - 34.1%) -- 2.1% chance to 3HKO assuming you don't get put to bed

252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 91-108 (26.3 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO his ass is not welcome back

So yeah those aren't hugely impressive calcs but I think they're ok. I think I'd go with something like this:

troll logic (Sinistcha) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Heatproof
Tera Type: Steel/Fairy/Dark if you're the goat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Matcha Gotcha
- Strength Sap
- Shadow Ball
- Foul Play/Substitute/Scald if you hate happiness/stun spore

It might be able to cook. Who knows. Not me, I've barely touched this thing.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Has anyone tried sinestcha yet? I didn't read the first few pages but I think it might be a good meme. In particular I found a very stupid way to """"""""""""""""beat"""""""""""""""" ogerpon with it. The ability shield, of course!

troll logic (Sinistcha-Masterpiece) @ Ability Shield
Ability: Heatproof
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Matcha Gotcha
- Shadow Ball
- Strength Sap
- Foul Play

With this, you can survive +2 ivy cudgel (no tera because then you don't even need ability shield) and tera dark foul play is a OHKO. I have not used this but it seems kinda funny. Not wholly practical though. Don't think this is exactly what you'd want to blow your tera on.

+2 252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Mold Breaker Ogerpon-Hearthflame Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ability Shield Heatproof Tera Dark Sinistcha: 127-151 (36.7 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Tera Dark Sinistcha Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 339-400 (112.6 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

again, this is a meme set, I wouldn't expect good results from this lol. It also implies you did a slow pivot or sacked something to get sinistcha in for free.

On a more practical note, I think there could(?) be merit to sinistcha as a defensive mon. It's type isn't great, and neither is it speed, but it's defensive profile isn't bad. There's a few fun hits it can take at max defense (I tried spdef but most of the main targets just kill you anyways/you don't threaten them back). Not to mention it can keep itself healthy pretty easy with strength sap and matcha gotcha. It walks great tusk like a dog assuming you do not fear knock off. Which you should but non knock off variants beware

fun calcs for kidz

4 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 102-120 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 7.3% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 148-176 (42.7 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 146-174 (42.1 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO what a sorry sack of shit nice 1.2%dumbass. Pls ignore rocks.

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 284-336 (82 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO streets aren't ready for this one

0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatproof Sinistcha: 144-170 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO not sure why im putting this here but hey look heat proof clutch

252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatproof Sinistcha: 126-150 (36.4 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Libero Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 146-174 (42.1 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Sneasler Dire Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 100-118 (28.9 - 34.1%) -- 2.1% chance to 3HKO assuming you don't get put to bed

252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 91-108 (26.3 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO his ass is not welcome back

So yeah those aren't hugely impressive calcs but I think they're ok. I think I'd go with something like this:

troll logic (Sinistcha) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Heatproof
Tera Type: Steel/Fairy/Dark if you're the goat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Matcha Gotcha
- Strength Sap
- Shadow Ball
- Foul Play/Substitute/Scald if you hate happiness/stun spore

It might be able to cook. Who knows. Not me, I've barely touched this thing.

haha superpower go bonk

 

[Srn]

Has anyone tried sinestcha yet? I didn't read the first few pages but I think it might be a good meme. In particular I found a very stupid way to """"""""""""""""beat"""""""""""""""" ogerpon with it. The ability shield, of course!

troll logic (Sinistcha-Masterpiece) @ Ability Shield
Ability: Heatproof
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Matcha Gotcha
- Shadow Ball
- Strength Sap
- Foul Play

With this, you can survive +2 ivy cudgel (no tera because then you don't even need ability shield) and tera dark foul play is a OHKO. I have not used this but it seems kinda funny. Not wholly practical though. Don't think this is exactly what you'd want to blow your tera on.

+2 252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Mold Breaker Ogerpon-Hearthflame Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ability Shield Heatproof Tera Dark Sinistcha: 127-151 (36.7 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Tera Dark Sinistcha Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 339-400 (112.6 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

again, this is a meme set, I wouldn't expect good results from this lol. It also implies you did a slow pivot or sacked something to get sinistcha in for free.

On a more practical note, I think there could(?) be merit to sinistcha as a defensive mon. It's type isn't great, and neither is it speed, but it's defensive profile isn't bad. There's a few fun hits it can take at max defense (I tried spdef but most of the main targets just kill you anyways/you don't threaten them back). Not to mention it can keep itself healthy pretty easy with strength sap and matcha gotcha. It walks great tusk like a dog assuming you do not fear knock off. Which you should but non knock off variants beware

fun calcs for kidz

4 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 102-120 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 7.3% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 148-176 (42.7 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 146-174 (42.1 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO what a sorry sack of shit nice 1.2%dumbass. Pls ignore rocks.

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 284-336 (82 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO streets aren't ready for this one

0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatproof Sinistcha: 144-170 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO not sure why im putting this here but hey look heat proof clutch

252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatproof Sinistcha: 126-150 (36.4 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Libero Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 146-174 (42.1 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Sneasler Dire Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 100-118 (28.9 - 34.1%) -- 2.1% chance to 3HKO assuming you don't get put to bed

252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 91-108 (26.3 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO his ass is not welcome back

So yeah those aren't hugely impressive calcs but I think they're ok. I think I'd go with something like this:

troll logic (Sinistcha) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Heatproof
Tera Type: Steel/Fairy/Dark if you're the goat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Matcha Gotcha
- Strength Sap
- Shadow Ball
- Foul Play/Substitute/Scald if you hate happiness/stun spore

It might be able to cook. Who knows. Not me, I've barely touched this thing.

I briefly entertained this mon with the following set

Sinistcha @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Heatproof
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 216 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Matcha Gotcha
- Hex
- Substitute
- Strength Sap

I thought it could be cool to have a boots mon that could viably spinblock tusk, and you have enough speed to sub on gliscor toxic, resist eq, and harass it with your stabs. Ultimately though, I think that defog corv will pick up some usage to answer gliscor, and I think that building a good hstack without gholdengo will be hard to justify.

So then, if I was gonna use gholdengo, can't I just go tera ghost and spin block tusk that way AND block defog in one teamslot? Using Sinistcha and gholdengo, both with boots, sounded too redundant to work on the same team, so I dismissed Sinistcha altogether.

Until boots teams have another way to actually punish defog (I don't think defiant kingambit or competitive empoleon do this), I feel like I'm always gonna use gholdengo, and if I do that, I find it hard to justify sinistcha.

Just my thought process when I considered this lil guy, maybe somebody else will find a way to make it work.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I briefly entertained this mon with the following set

Sinistcha @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Heatproof
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 216 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Matcha Gotcha
- Hex
- Substitute
- Strength Sap

I thought it could be cool to have a boots mon that could viably spinblock tusk, and you have enough speed to sub on gliscor toxic, resist eq, and harass it with your stabs. Ultimately though, I think that defog corv will pick up some usage to answer gliscor, and I think that building a good hstack without gholdengo will be hard to justify.

So then, if I was gonna use gholdengo, can't I just go tera ghost and spin block tusk that way AND block defog in one teamslot? Using Sinistcha and gholdengo, both with boots, sounded too redundant to work on the same team, so I dismissed Sinistcha altogether.

Until boots teams have another way to actually punish defog (I don't think defiant kingambit or competitive empoleon do this), I feel like I'm always gonna use gholdengo, and if I do that, I find it hard to justify sinistcha.

Just my thought process when I considered this lil guy, maybe somebody else will find a way to make it work.

well, ghold doesn't compress stab and burn into a single moveslot, so that's something sinistcha has going for it i suppose?

 

[procorphish]

Bax is unanimously banned: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/baxcalibur-is-banned-from-sv-ou.3727992/

late to this but kind of a ridiculous ban, just two days into the new metagame when there are other beasts like ogerpon too.

remember how when home dropped people seriously considered banning light clay or stored power (even after the magearna ban) and after about a month screens ho saw almost no play in tournament? the playerbase always overreacts when the meta changes because of new additions and this is another case of that.
baxcalibur was definitely strong and while it may have received tiering action later down the road (if it truly turned out to be too good) it could have been suspected at least, it was just way too early for a ban considering that, in the past, mons like chi-yu took months to eradicate from the tier.

 

[HeartfulKitty]

late to this but kind of a ridiculous ban, just two days into the new metagame when there are other beasts like ogerpon too.

remember how when home dropped people seriously considered banning light clay or stored power (even after the magearna ban) and after about a month screens ho saw almost no play in tournament? the playerbase always overreacts when the meta changes because of new additions and this is another case of that.
baxcalibur was definitely strong and while it may have received tiering action later down the road (if it truly turned out to be too good) it could have been suspected at least, it was just way too early for a ban considering that, in the past, mons like chi-yu took months to eradicate from the tier.

It was a unanimous council vote and the vast majority of people on here were vocally for its ban, why waste time with a suspect with a threat so obviously broken when the meta's only gonna last for like 3 months anyways. Not like it wasn't busted pre-DLC either, it just got skyrocketed to unbearable with scale shot/ESPECIALLY alolatales

 

[procorphish]

It was a unanimous council vote and the vast majority of people on here were vocally for its ban, why waste time with a suspect with a threat so obviously broken when the meta's only gonna last for like 3 months anyways. Not like it wasn't busted pre-DLC either, it just got skyrocketed to unbearable with scale shot/ESPECIALLY alolatales

fair argument but scale shot was really not that great on baxca, i also have enough faith that people were eventually going to adapt to aurora veil like they did screens in home meta. i don't think bax wasn't ban worthy necessarily, but the way the ban was handled considering every other tiering action (except for like houndstone, flutter mane, palafin and bundle which were exceptions) is just very inconsistent.

 

[BijouMode]

fair argument but scale shot was really not that great on baxca, i also have enough faith that people were eventually going to adapt to aurora veil like they did screens in home meta. i don't think bax wasn't ban worthy necessarily, but the way the ban was handled considering every other tiering action (except for like houndstone, flutter mane, palafin and bundle which were exceptions) is just very inconsistent.

How can you say that it's very inconsistent when the majority of bans in this gen of OU have been in council votes (quickbans). You can't just choose to ignore "exceptions" when they make up the majority of tiering action, as that would make no sense whatsoever.

 

[JunkoAJ]

fair argument but scale shot was really not that great on baxca, i also have enough faith that people were eventually going to adapt to aurora veil like they did screens in home meta. i don't think bax wasn't ban worthy necessarily, but the way the ban was handled considering every other tiering action (except for like houndstone, flutter mane, palafin and bundle which were exceptions) is just very inconsistent.

I don't think it's inconsistent at all - it's the exact same way Leki got banned, enough people complained about a mon that was extremely silly, nuked and outsped everything. In Bax's case, with AV support, it was impossible to revenge kill as well. Something that impossible to work around is not welcome in OU lmao

 

[procorphish]

How can you say that it's very inconsistent when the majority of bans in this gen of OU have been in council votes (quickbans). You can't just choose to ignore "exceptions" when they make up the majority of tiering action, as that would make no sense whatsoever.

they were all new additions to the metagame, not pre-existent staples

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

People are underrating the shit out of the grass one. Band + speed boost when you tera is kinda bonkers.

you don’t realize how powerful the embody aspect utility is until you try it out. Having the option to Tera and give it +1 speed at any time is game winning flexibility.

Shh do not encourage the people here I don't want a suspected on this form.

If you manage to get the Defiant Boost Horn Leech also goes off.

 

[Finchinator]

late to this but kind of a ridiculous ban, just two days into the new metagame when there are other beasts like ogerpon too.

remember how when home dropped people seriously considered banning light clay or stored power (even after the magearna ban) and after about a month screens ho saw almost no play in tournament? the playerbase always overreacts when the meta changes because of new additions and this is another case of that.
baxcalibur was definitely strong and while it may have received tiering action later down the road (if it truly turned out to be too good) it could have been suspected at least, it was just way too early for a ban considering that, in the past, mons like chi-yu took months to eradicate from the tier.

Bax had more community survey support than Regieleki or Magearna, bans that anyone rational surely agrees with. And this level of support cannot be ignored or put-off. Things like Light Clay and Stored Power never were close; that comparison is disingenuous.

To put it bluntly, it would’ve essentially been committing malpractice to ignore that and not vote on Bax given what we had. Some decisions make themselves through community support really.

 

[Flamestorm7]

So I realise it probably isn't likely to be much beyond a niche pick and the heavily offense slanted meta likely does it no favours but could Mew have a niche in OU given it has regained access to many interesting options like toxic, scald and knock off?

 

[YubelVT]

Bax had more community survey support than Regieleki or Magearna, bans that anyone rational surely agrees with. And this level of support cannot be ignored or put-off. Things like Light Clay and Stored Power never were close; that comparison is disingenuous.

To put it bluntly, it would’ve essentially been committing malpractice to ignore that and not vote on Bax given what we had. Some decisions make themselves through community support really.

I'm astounded regieleki had any anti-ban advocates considering its best checks were an objectively terrible thundurus therian set, scarf dragapult, and fucking seaking SEAKING ISN'T EVEN IN THE GAME THERE IS NO ICE RESIST WITH LIGHTNING ROD IN THIS DEX

 

[YubelVT]

counterpoint use Gholdengo

Gholdengo isn't gen 7 landorus therian, he doesn't fit on every team

 

[Just A Shroom God]

Minor question in this mix, does Glowking stop Sneasler since you mentioned you run Lash Out? Its part Psychic typing undercuts the resistance to Sneasler's STABs at that point even unboosted.

I actually hadn't considered the move being potentially useful, letting Sneas hit the mentioned Glowking, Gholdengo, and Ghost (Tera) targets like Skeledirge or Dragapult while punishing the usual Tera Fairy circumvention with its Poison STAB. If you were running Fire Punch already this seems the superior option against most targets bar Corviknight (who would be hit harder by STAB Close Combat anyway) and not requiring your Tera like Ground Blast to break those checks.

The pivot set isn't 2HKO'd by it,
252+ Atk Sneasler Lash Out vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking-Galar: 150-178 (38 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
and Regenerator means that even if you get to +2 or use TB Ground, you will just Twave the Sneasler and regenerate the hp later.

With no info, an unknown Sneasler set applies immense pressure even when it's not out because you always know that if you fuck up, or if they double switch at the right time, the game has a chance to be over immediately.

I also typed out a whole essay on this but then I realized it came off as superior and argumentative so I'm just gonna say I disagree and move on.
Edit: I decided that since I put a bit of time and effort into it, I'd publish it. Below is the dissertion. Feel free to respond, or not

the argument

With no info, an unknown Sneasler set applies immense pressure even when it's not out because you always know that if you fuck up, or if they double switch at the right time, the game has a chance to be over immediately.

See, that's where I disagree. The game is not over when you send out Sneasler, even if you activate its item in the process through u-turn or from Terrain, you still get the option to switch into one of the checks I mentioned earlier and cripple it. Frankly, your statement about it being very threatening at +0 is false.
252+ Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 169-201 (45.5 - 54.1%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 225-265 (63 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 234-276 (69 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Rotom-Wash: 150-177 (49.3 - 58.2%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 273-322 (76.4 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tera Flying Sneasler Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 249-294 (82.7 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It gets all these 2HKOs, but the damning thing is that Unburden only activates once, so if you are forced out like literally all of these pokemon can do to you, you're now outsped by +base 105s which I don't have to tell you isn't ideal for sweeping.
Even in the best case scenario where you manage to get in on a nonthreatening move AND activate unburden at the same time, so that you are able to get a swords dance up, the game isn't over. The checks I mentioned can (mostly- Rotom isn't included) all take a hit from +2 Sneasler:

+2 252+ Atk Sneasler Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragapult: 271-319 (85.4 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 177-209 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
+2 252+ Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 340-402 (78.3 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 165-195 (43.1 - 51%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO (doesn't learn Ice Punch btw)
+2 252+ Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 271-319 (90 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (not great, but can be used in an emergency)
Sneasler Close Combat vs. Gholdengo: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Notice how none of these are stall or particularly defensive balance. They are all pokemon you would reasonably expect to run on offense. And again, all of these can force it out or at the very least cripple it before dying. They can force a trade.
I'd like to end the argument with the mention that surprise Teras can be effective against it, as due to its lowered defenses thanks to Close Combat, 1 wrong turn can spell its doom. Examples would be Ghost Chomp, Flying Tran, Ghost/Flying/Bug Gambit, even shit like Steel Hatt can function in the worst-case scenario.
Sure, you can argue that with rocks support and/or minor chip on the opposing team, it can achieve those OHKO, but by that point its the best case scenario where you've managed to set up both stats AND have rocks and chip up, and you successfully bait or predict around the Tera, you probably deserve to win anyway. Sneasler doesn't need to be unviable garbage to not be banworthy, and certainly not more than Ogerpon-H(--owTheFuckDoICounter), which forces Tera Dragon Dozo and Tusk as "defensive counterplay."


Oh, and also
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Tera Dark Lokix Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasler: 318-376 (105.6 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
literally unviable

 

[YubelVT]

Goooooood morning to gliscor users!


and other people I guess



its cooler lando

I too love clicking scale shot on garchomp and doing 5%

 

[Kingdra7]

To put it bluntly, it would’ve essentially been committing malpractice to ignore that and not vote on Bax given what we had. Some decisions make themselves through community support really.

Teiring this gen is basically via survey, but I have to question whether that is a good thing. If we were just following community sentiment at a single point in time, Tera would be gone, Wake would be gone, Gambit would be gone, and we would think to ourselves "good! that was some broken shit!"

But are any of those things really broken? Or are they just annoying to prepare for? We found ways to deal with those things, and community sentiment changed with subsequent surveys. It is one thing when a threat comes up over and over, it's another when the meta is brand new. There's no right answer, and banning Bax isn't wrong, but we seem to be in a place where threats linger for months on end before suddenly becoming broken overnight. With the slow release of mons and big home/DLC events maybe that's what happened, something broke overnight. For volc, it didn't seem that way.

If we just want all matchup fish strats gone, then ban faster. Don't worry about surveys, just get the council together. But with Bax, it didn't really get that much better with DLC (scale shot has drawbacks with dice and the def drop), the main thing is that it got veil support over Glowking support. And veil has dozens of ways to deal with it! Veil seems stronger than screens until you remember that unlike screens, veil can be denied not just by killing the screener, but by changing the weather or denying weather to begin with. Veil/Bax is a matchup fish, if it comes up against a team without a way of denying weather or stealing/breaking/bypassing screens, yeah it wins on preview. But if it comes up against any of those, it gets a lot harder to position Bax. Are things in a place where we don't want to see those tools on teams? Would community sentiment stay this way in a couple of weeks?

 

[Red Raven]

I too love clicking scale shot on garchomp and doing 5%

I'm almost tempted to go tera flying on sub scale shot Garchomp just because the immunity to iq and sub protecting from toxic makes Gliscor very sad. Also, somehow Gliscor seems far more annoying now even though it doesn't have roost anymore

 

[YubelVT]

Teiring this gen is basically via survey, but I have to question whether that is a good thing. If we were just following community sentiment at a single point in time, Tera would be gone, Wake would be gone, Gambit would be gone, and we would think to ourselves "good! that was some broken shit!"

But are any of those things really broken? Or are they just annoying to prepare for? We found ways to deal with those things, and community sentiment changed with subsequent surveys. It is one thing when a threat comes up over and over, it's another when the meta is brand new. There's no right answer, and banning Bax isn't wrong, but we seem to be in a place where threats linger for months on end before suddenly becoming broken overnight. With the slow release of mons and big home/DLC events maybe that's what happened, something broke overnight. For volc, it didn't seem that way.

If we just want all matchup fish strats gone, then ban faster. Don't worry about surveys, just get the council together. But with Bax, it didn't really get that much better with DLC (scale shot has drawbacks with dice and the def drop), the main thing is that it got veil support over Glowking support. And veil has dozens of ways to deal with it! Veil seems stronger than screens until you remember that unlike screens, veil can be denied not just by killing the screener, but by changing the weather or denying weather to begin with. Veil/Bax is a matchup fish, if it comes up against a team without a way of denying weather or stealing/breaking/bypassing screens, yeah it wins on preview. But if it comes up against any of those, it gets a lot harder to position Bax. Are things in a place where we don't want to see those tools on teams? Would community sentiment stay this way in a couple of weeks?

personally I think gambit should be banned. I don't actually think it's overpowered or anything it's just keeping skeledirge in UU and that's terrible

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

considering that, in the past, mons like chi-yu took months to eradicate from the tier.

it's important to note that this was a bad thing