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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
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*beeeep* violation of smogon rule 'no 1 liners' detected, 50 points of reaction score have been deducted from your profile. Thanks and have a nice day
i think that many of these problems can be solved with a gholdengo ban:
- knock off will become marginally less of a game-decider because it will matter slightly less if the move knocks your socks off in a meta where you can actually remove hazards
- as YubelVT mentioned, several otherwise-viable things that hard-lose to ghold are reliable wins against rillaboom, such as mandibuzz, corviknight, and amoonguss; those will all become much better and more widespread with gholdengo out of the tier
- defog, which removes grassy terrain, becomes a real move again
- pokemon can more flexibly run non-eq coverage (specifically fighting) to deal with kingambit and other steel-types, making grassy terrain's weakening of earthquake less of an issue
- tusk can click ice spinner more often
Definitely agree with this, and think the pressure that Gholdengo and Waterpon exert vs defensive teams makes responding to everything else, including Rillaboom, much more challenging. Who knows how these dynamics will play out come DLC2 but looking at DLC1 this is a good step to take
maybe i didnt enunciate that properly. a lot of pokemon this generation only require a single free turn to snowball an entire game. being choice locked this generation gives the opponent plenty of opportunities to do that. i think thats why outside of rillaboom, choice items are mainly seen on weather teams which also boost speed. wasnt always that way previously.
I'm ngl having OU defined by more or less artificial and biased tiering practices to keep the famous and beloved mons in OU is kind of asinine. The point of metas is that they change, each gen is a snapshot of that. Sure it's unfortunate that a lot of mons began to fall off, but could you imagine gen III OU being balanced around the idea that mons from tbe gen prior like Snorlax, Cloyster, Raikou, Nidoking and Golem, mons that have begun to fall off or have fallen off completely, being what tiering action is focused on, to maintain the pedigree and power these mons have? We all get attached to long-time competitive favorites, and seeing them fall off is unfortunate, but that's just how it is sometimes. Not to say that we should let a bunch of broken stuff roam around but I think having OU being defined by certain mons overall is just, questionable.
I just wanna say that I was the biggest proponent for Zamazenta-H dropping to OU, and I’m a big proponent for Darkrai being tested in OU now. I see no world in which Solgaleo should be tested at this point in time. Reliable recovery is HUGE and something I feel most people are overlooking about it; a simple 3 attacks Morning Sun set with Leftovers probably dumpsters the majority of the tier due to Solgaleo’s combination of power, bulk, longevity, defensive utility, and decent coverage, and then it has the option for bulky setup Iron Defense + Calm Mind Stored Power sets which wouldn’t even be a tera hog, as well as 5 billion other viable sets like FuturePort or Choiced sets or even Dual Screens. Please, please let’s be reasonable here; this Pokémon is not remotely comparable to Metagross or Zamazenta-H or what have you.
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I do agree with Casteliacone that OU should not artificially tier to keep certain Pokemon in OU based on what pre-conceived notion OU is. If a mon is no longer good in OU, such as Tyranitar, due to the nerfs it received and Great Tusk's release along with the many offensive Fighting, Water, and Fairy-type Pokemon introduced, including the arrival of Garganacl, a defensive Rock-type that isn't garbage, it will naturally drop.
Something like Gholdengo though, I believe is broken due to the huge constraint in places in the builder for slower-paced teams in conjunction with its ability to deny hazard removal. Ever since the Sneasler ban, I have found Gholdengo and Ogerpon-Wellspring to be the top two threats to consider in the builder. Yeah, I deliberately excluded Kingambit as I believe those two mons have less counterplay than Kingambit.
That's not to say I think Gholdengo will always be too much for OU. In fact, I believe if Tera were to be banned Gholdengo might be balanced since it can't just BS its way through what should have been a bad match-up. Great Tusk should always check Gholdengo instead of Tera allowing Gholdengo to make Great Tusk its bitch. Tera is a horrible mechanic, and we would have a larger pool of usable mons in OU with this dumb mechanic banned.
Something like Gholdengo though, I believe is broken due to the huge constraint in places in the builder for slower-paced teams in conjunction with its ability to deny hazard removal. Ever since the Sneasler ban, I have found Gholdengo and Ogerpon-Wellspring to be the top two threats to consider in the builder. Yeah, I deliberately excluded Kingambit as I believe those two mons have less counterplay than Kingambit.
That's not to say I think Gholdengo will always be too much for OU. In fact, I believe if Tera were to be banned Gholdengo might be balanced since it can't just BS its way through what should have been a bad match-up. Great Tusk should always check Gholdengo instead of Tera allowing Gholdengo to make Great Tusk its bitch. Tera is a horrible mechanic, and we would have a larger pool of usable mons in OU with this dumb mechanic banned.
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Why are we discussing Solgaleo? The thing has a Legendary BST with the distribution and movepool to do whatever the hell it wants along with a solid defensive typing before even using Tera. It can be a Scarf/Band user that hits with the force of the Sun, a Heavy Duty Boots pivot for Bulky Offense with Morning Sun (that also hits with the unbridled power of the Sun), a Poison-immune Teleport wall for Stall/Balance teams (that again, is literally the fucking Sun), a Stored Power sweeper that gets Agility + Calm Mind for Double Dance (or even Cosmic Power) and… You get the point. It even gets Knock Off for some reason.
We don’t need to drop random Ubers just because. And no, just because Ho-Oh is 4x weak to Stealth Rock does not mean it’s dogshit in Ubers and should totally be dropped to OU, it’s still great there. Lugia will also end up being at least solid there thanks to Tera.
We don’t need to drop random Ubers just because. And no, just because Ho-Oh is 4x weak to Stealth Rock does not mean it’s dogshit in Ubers and should totally be dropped to OU, it’s still great there. Lugia will also end up being at least solid there thanks to Tera.
that can't be the way it works, because how do we decide what is and isn't the "identity of ou"? snorlax ran the meta in gen 1 (alongside chansey and tauros) and was the meta in gen 2, but it's steadily fallen off since then. should we tier based on it being an ou staple? what about magnezone, ou for 5 generations straight until this one? should we unban last respects and sand veil so tyranitar can be ou again? what generation are we using to "define" ou? gen 8, because it was the most recent? gen 7, the last gen before dexit and therefore the most diverse? gen 6, arguably the most well-balanced gen? gen 5, the last gen without introducing a new wacky generational mechanic (gems don't count, i'm talking "click a button and your pokemon emits light and does a zany thing")? gen 4, the first gen where the concept of "competitive pokemon" took off? why is any one of these better for shaping all other metas around specifically? and what happens if one of these "identity" mons is nerfed? for example, if heatran loses toxic, or lando-t loses defog and knock off, or weavile loses knock off and triple axel, or toxapex loses scald, all of which happened this gen? hell, what happens if one is buffed? like, say, if volcarona gains some sort of usable ground coverage, or gliscor gets spikes? should we refrain from banning them even if they're broken because they're long-time ou staples?
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I don't get the arguments for "why are we even bothering to consider this previously ubers mon in OU?" Uhh... because having more options at your disposal in the teambuilder to promote new team structures and develop the meta from the state it was in previously is... a good thing? I didn't think this was an unpopular opinion, but if something isn't broken or overcentralizing in OU, it should be dropped to give players definitive access to more tools than they had before, regardless of "what positive contribution does this have to the OU tier". If it's not a net negative by being overwhelming or mandating excessive prep in teambuilder, then it should be dropped regardless of how "chaotic" the tier is at the moment. (this isn't about any specific pokemon, just a mini-rant about how i feel about retesting ubers.)
it depends on the mon. zamazenta-crowned was worth considering (though it turned out to be broken both times for separate reasons), zacian-crowned was not. and neither is solgaleo, good lord people
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Although we should test ubers pokemon in OU that could be balance, now is not the time for it. The additions from the dlc dex and new moves will already massively shake up the metagame. Give the metagame 2-3 months to at least somewhat settle before we go willy nilly on unbanning things. Stuff like gliscor and even potentially roaring moon were OU at some point, so they have more reason to be healthy. However, super-legendaries like Solgaleo which have never been OU, or stuff like Zamazenta-H which was OU very briefly, should be done once the initial ban waves occur. Do people geniunelly forget the shitshow that was crown tundra unbanning? We should learn from our mistakes and stop it from happening again. I don't mind people theorymonning on whether it would be broken or not, but there's a difference between "this pokemon may be balanced" and "this pokemon will be balanced". We can't know for sure, so don't assume. It makes an ass out of you and me.
Idk I find the prospect of dropping ubers-level mons into OU when the DLC will be out to be not an awesome prospect. Gilscor? Even Sneasler? yeah sure, we can try that. But clearly ubers level stuff (or at least UUbers tier) doesn't necessarily sit right with me due to the timing of it. We're going to have a whole load of bs with the DLC dropping and whatever new toys come with it, I'd rather sort out the tier first then do a drip feed of "lets see if this works" as I need to see Ghold smothered and Gambit hit by a car. Once those two are gone along with whatever new toy Gamefreak has, i'll happily accept Darkrai or whatever other crack we're snorting
Unironically yes, and we should. SSOU has ended up, by all accounts, as a balanced metagame. Some would even argue so balanced that the life was sucked out of it. It is perfectly fine to have a chaotic meta full of broken mons running around, when the council has shown this gen that it is ready and willing to be proactive and quickly clean up the mess. That's why I feel we should be very liberal with unbans. I don't think the "short term metagame health" that everyone is bleating about matters, we can be tough and deal with it in order to get the best possible long term picture. You can live without "muh balanced meta" for a few months, as we've done for previous big shakeups.
what was wrong with the crown tundra unbanning? it was sorted out quickly and its how we realized blaziken wasnt actually that broken. sure the meta was chaotic for a bit but it really didn't last that long.
Why are we considering Zamazenta-Crowned at all? For the many people who either didn't play release home or was not as immersed in the metagame, Zamazenta-Crowned is by far the most broken mon on the survey by far. ID Body Press literally stat checks everyone and when you pull up with a tera flying or sort the mon becomes straight up unkillable. Tera Fire makes it immune to wisp whilst also being to kill Gholdengo with Tera Blast, talked about flying before, and having an amazing speed stat that can be customised to creep whatever mons are needed to be crept (etc. during home every zama-c crept Urshifu, whereas rn it would be wise to put the speed stat perhaps above Cinderace), and its amazing typing and just sheer stats makes it insanely difficult to OHKO. The counterplay prehome was a life orb tera fighting chien pao with sacred sword, which didn't even OHKO lmao. At +6, this mon is able to brute force thru every single non-ghost type, which consequently also dies to Crunch in 2 hits due to a handy 120 attack stat, powered further if you are utilising ID Howl sets. Zamazenta-Crowned is not just Zamazenta but item locked, its a 660BST monster which destroys the metagame. Having a steel typing is also amazing as it helps complement is fighting type perfectly, letting you run heavy slam/behemoth bash as your last slot. Never let this thing drop ever again
As per my other survey responses, I strongly believe Darkrai should be unbanned for very obvious reasons (see Vert's post and some of mine earlier), it is just Iron Valiant but much worse, although it has niches that will help the tier. Volcarona, Roaring Moon and Gliscor should also be unbanned for sure; the rest should remain banned maybe with the exception of Palafin, although I still think BU taunt is a very good set and turning grass lets you flip the Wellspring matchup anyways.
As for Solgaleo, I would not mind it being dropped into OU, as it would be a defensive mon with a terrible typing frankly requiring it to Tera (weak to almost every top tier OU mon rn, such as Pult, Kingambit, Tusk, Ting, Dengo, Moth etc.) and I can see it being able to add value with teleport support and future sight. Gaining Future Sight + teleport or taking on a defensive set with rocks and morning sun with utility such as toxic and thunder wave, or taking an offensive approach and being band/specs, I think this mon wont be too much in the face of the current OU metagame and the notorious Ting-Lu Zap King core, and with threats such as Blaziken introduced in DLC2, I think it could remain balanced.
As per my other survey responses, I strongly believe Darkrai should be unbanned for very obvious reasons (see Vert's post and some of mine earlier), it is just Iron Valiant but much worse, although it has niches that will help the tier. Volcarona, Roaring Moon and Gliscor should also be unbanned for sure; the rest should remain banned maybe with the exception of Palafin, although I still think BU taunt is a very good set and turning grass lets you flip the Wellspring matchup anyways.
As for Solgaleo, I would not mind it being dropped into OU, as it would be a defensive mon with a terrible typing frankly requiring it to Tera (weak to almost every top tier OU mon rn, such as Pult, Kingambit, Tusk, Ting, Dengo, Moth etc.) and I can see it being able to add value with teleport support and future sight. Gaining Future Sight + teleport or taking on a defensive set with rocks and morning sun with utility such as toxic and thunder wave, or taking an offensive approach and being band/specs, I think this mon wont be too much in the face of the current OU metagame and the notorious Ting-Lu Zap King core, and with threats such as Blaziken introduced in DLC2, I think it could remain balanced.
Simply put, the immense amount of bullshit pokemon that were unbanned made the metagame so horrendous, every SV violet metagame looked calm in comparison. You had stuff like urshifu-single (which was around before but I digress), spectrier, but more importantly the unbanned magearna, cinderace, genesect and naganadel. It may have been quick, but half of the unbans were uncalled for and it left a sour taste in many people's mouths, despite SS end metagame being quite balanced/good.
These unbans should be slowly done as even if the council is decisive, it would be better to avoid that situation entirely. Also, short game metagame health is important, though you are right about it not being the end all be all. The main reason why it is so important is that it has an effect on the long term view of the metagame. If the crown tundra unbans had been even half of what actually occured, like not unbanning obviously broken stuff like genesect or naganadel, then it would have been a lot better experience and people will look better on SS. It's probably the main reason why some hate it, because it left such a bad impression on the rest of the metagame, despite it actually being good in the end.
TLDR, you're right about not focusing on short term too much, but we should avoid a bad scenario entirely.
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Forgot to put tusk in the stats comparison:
Ubers doesn't instantly mean broken stats, Solgaleo's stats are pretty close to current OU and even UU pokemon.
What makes Solgaleo more broken than Offensive Tusk that it has to be banned to Ubers ? Tusk has way better Stabs, probably better typing and also has Knock Off while having Rapid Spin to boost its speed and Bulk up to boost attack. Solgaleo has better Sp Def but less Def than Tusk and is outspeeds Tusk and Lando to make up for weaker Stabs.
252 Atk Choice Band Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta: 168-198 (43.2 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta: 195-229 (50.2 - 59%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 156-184 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Psychic Solgaleo: 186-219 (44.8 - 52.7%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO
Adamant Zamazenta and Solgaleo have the same damage but Close Combat obviously hits harder:
252+ Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta: 199-235 (51.2 - 60.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 254-300 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Solgaleo Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 254-300 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO
They have almost the same Sp Def:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Steel Solgaleo: 241-285 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 195-229 (60 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zamazenta is way faster though and Dauntless Shield is a lot more useful than Full Metal Body (which is just Clear Body like the regis).
Solgaleo also suffers from 4MSS:
Solgaleo @ Choice Band
Ability: Full Metal Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Psychic Fangs/Psychic/Knock Off
- Wild Charge/Stone Edge/Close Combat/Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge/Stone Edge/Close Combat/Flare Blitz
You want Psychic Stab for tusk, Wild charge for water, Stone edge for birds, Flare blitz for steel (but can't hit heatran) and Close Combat for Heatran.
Calm Minds sets are bad with 113 Sp Atk, 97 Speed and Psychic/Flash Cannon as Stabs.
Solgaleo might be a A/A+ rank mon, but its Stats aren't Ubers worthy like the other legendaries when we already have similar stats in OU and UU. It doesn't have any attack moves that breaks it and lacks good set up moves just like Zamazenta.
Ubers doesn't instantly mean broken stats, Solgaleo's stats are pretty close to current OU and even UU pokemon.
What makes Solgaleo more broken than Offensive Tusk that it has to be banned to Ubers ? Tusk has way better Stabs, probably better typing and also has Knock Off while having Rapid Spin to boost its speed and Bulk up to boost attack. Solgaleo has better Sp Def but less Def than Tusk and is outspeeds Tusk and Lando to make up for weaker Stabs.
252 Atk Choice Band Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta: 168-198 (43.2 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta: 195-229 (50.2 - 59%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 156-184 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Psychic Solgaleo: 186-219 (44.8 - 52.7%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO
Adamant Zamazenta and Solgaleo have the same damage but Close Combat obviously hits harder:
252+ Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta: 199-235 (51.2 - 60.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 254-300 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Solgaleo Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 254-300 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO
They have almost the same Sp Def:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Steel Solgaleo: 241-285 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 195-229 (60 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zamazenta is way faster though and Dauntless Shield is a lot more useful than Full Metal Body (which is just Clear Body like the regis).
Solgaleo also suffers from 4MSS:
Solgaleo @ Choice Band
Ability: Full Metal Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Psychic Fangs/Psychic/Knock Off
- Wild Charge/Stone Edge/Close Combat/Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge/Stone Edge/Close Combat/Flare Blitz
You want Psychic Stab for tusk, Wild charge for water, Stone edge for birds, Flare blitz for steel (but can't hit heatran) and Close Combat for Heatran.
Calm Minds sets are bad with 113 Sp Atk, 97 Speed and Psychic/Flash Cannon as Stabs.
Solgaleo might be a A/A+ rank mon, but its Stats aren't Ubers worthy like the other legendaries when we already have similar stats in OU and UU. It doesn't have any attack moves that breaks it and lacks good set up moves just like Zamazenta.
Im sorry but comparing solgaleo with mons that have a whole hundred less BST sure is a take. Yeah it has the same attack as tusk and less defense but more HP, like double the spdef, and an actual special attack stat enabling potentially overwhelming set diversity, not to mention futureport and morning sun. It'll probably learn stored power by TM too and can probably run a demon mew set variant. Also just ignoring the speed stats of all the compared mons and how most of them range from decent enough (tusk) to slow (everyone but zama) sure is a decision!
Hi, sorry if this is the wrong place for this, but I'm curious about how Darkrai fared in the OU (Suspect Test) slot in OUPL this year. Namely, why was it used so little? In its second week of legality it was only brought once, with every other game functioning like a normal OU one. Is it that underwhelming/hard to build with? It was used six out of eight possible times in week one, what changed between the first two weeks?
anyways can dlc2 just drop already so we can have actual new and tangible things to complain about instead of suggesting which box art legendary should go to OU just based on vibes. Honestly if you ask me I think Kyogre should be OU, it loses to rillaboom how can it be good
People realised it sucks
Hoopa-Unbound has 700 BST, it's all about stat distribution. Tusk has 53 Sp Atk. Hands has 50 Sp Atk. Zamazenta has 80 Sp Atk.
We already have Future Port Regenerator
It didn't get Stored Power last gen.
can run mixed too. Psychic and Steel aren't good offensive types, ghost and fairy are.Nothing makes Solgaleo instant Ubers when Tusk and Zamazenta are similar offensively and the other ones are slower but hit much harder.
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