Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[awyp]

I don't see why we're entertaining the idea of introducing a base 125 speed sleeper in this already-too-hostile metagame. Hypnosis has a meme-worthy 60% accuracy, sure, but deciding games on that kind of a coin-flip vs a mon that fast doesn't sound like a healthy interaction to me. Reminds me of HypnoMegaGar from ORAS Ubers minus the trapping.

Not only Hypnosis, but Darkrai has a ton of different options that'll make checking it annoying as hell, like Nasty Plot, Will-o-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Knock Off, and tera options like Poison, Ghost, or whatever else for boosting any of its coverage moves.

Bad Dreams + Tera Ghost Hex, in particular, sounds scary as hell for bulky teams to deal with, especially if you pair this with Toxic Spikes for targets other than the one that's asleep.


Darkrai @ Leftovers
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Hypnosis
- Hex
- Dark Pulse

Yeah, no thanks.

Do we consider Iron Valiant to be hostile to the metagame since its hitting over 500 speed with Booster Energy and has access to the same move (Hypnosis)?

I'm pretty sure majority of the community considers Iron Valiant to be healthy, so why would speed and access to an inaccurate sleep move be cause for concern?

Yeah they're not the same mon and have big differences like ability and certain moves but I don't think Darkrai would be that crazy to add to OU since there's been a solid amount of OU + Darkrai tournaments and it doesn't seem overbearing most the time, obviously I need a larger sample size but I'm saying it doesn't seem that crazy when we've added things like Magearna to OU a couple of months ago.

 

[Roshino]

You sound so much like Trump it's uncanny. Always so negative and always complaining about Tera.

lmfao

I'll tell you, to me, the second-most important thing after OU what you do is never, ever Tera. Don’t Tera. Don’t allow Tera in OU. If there’s a Fairy Kingambit in front of you, go through it. Tera Blast over it. Tera Blast around it. But get to the other side of that Flying Kingambit.

 

[Magcargo]

Let's just wait until DLC 2 to see what happens. If Darkrai is broken, it'll likely just be quick banned in under a week or 2, which is fine. This is also applicable to other Pokemon I completely despise like Annihilape. I agree that we can't garner much concrete data from these games, esp cause Tourney players tend to use more galaxy brained tech than the general ladder scrubs such as myself, which might be an influencing factor.

 

[TheTraininator]

I think people misunderstand the "doesn't add to the metagame point" a lot (including some of the people making the point themselves). It isn't about not testing it ever, but rather not testing it right now.

Let's just wait until DLC 2 to see what happens.

I don’t think in these past few pages I’ve seen anyone in this thread who is in favor of testing Darkrai suggest that we need to do so before DLC2 either. Between that and the earlier suggested idea that people were suggesting a few OUPL games are enough to come to a conclusion, feels like people keep coming up with strawman arguments. If anyone else who is pro-test for Darkrai disagrees with me, feel free to quote me saying otherwise, but I think I speak for everyone that is in favor of trying it out that we’re fine waiting for sometime after DLC2 and that it would be better to get some sizeable amount of data to base it on instead of just a few games solely in a tournament setting. If it’s still broken, no harm no foul, and we can use that as a point of comparison for future gens.

 

[Alternator]

Instead of talking about Darkrai, how about we talk about our favorite Bug/Steel.

Our other favorite Bug/Steel.

That's right, we should do the traditional thing and test Genesect. Unlike past tests, in SV Genesect is actually losing something - reports are that it no longer has Shift Gear, Rock Polish, or Extreme Speed. If true, that means its speed control is crippled; it can still run scarf sets, but a pivot that lacks Spikes immunity would really prefer HDB, and if you're not pivoting then Booster Valiant does the job better.

As a pivot, it's really just better Scizor, but a better version of a B- mon isn't clearly problematic. As a mixed attacker is stuffers from a poor STAB combo, but does have a solid speed tier and solid enough defenses (especially with a great defensive typing), which again isn't obviously overwhelming.

Disregard all that is if does keep its speed control moves, but without them I think Genesect would actually be viable in OU.

 

[cyclonez_]

Instead of talking about Darkrai, how about we talk about our favorite Bug/Steel.

Our other favorite Bug/Steel.

i forgot genesect was a thing and was getting so hype for the forretress love

Disregard all that is if does keep its speed control moves, but without them I think Genesect would actually be viable in OU.

i never saw genesect in OU the last few gens, why would nerfing it bring an unviable mon (as said above--genesect currently isn't viable in OU) i never see in OU up to the tier?

to prevent this from being a pure shitpost two-liner, i think that there's no real harm in freeing darkrai for DLC2 since we're unbanning multiple threats already. while I think it's going to be silly and get quickbanned within a week, if we're freeing mons like Moon and Sneasler again, what's one more? either way, it will put to rest the discussion.

free chien-pao it'll be balance this time trust

 

[Martin]

Bro please do not test Genesect that mon is dummy broken

 

[P3DS]

Instead of talking about Darkrai, how about we talk about our favorite Bug/Steel.

Our other favorite Bug/Steel.

That's right, we should do the traditional thing and test Genesect. Unlike past tests, in SV Genesect is actually losing something - reports are that it no longer has Shift Gear, Rock Polish, or Extreme Speed. If true, that means its speed control is crippled; it can still run scarf sets, but a pivot that lacks Spikes immunity would really prefer HDB, and if you're not pivoting then Booster Valiant does the job better.

As a pivot, it's really just better Scizor, but a better version of a B- mon isn't clearly problematic. As a mixed attacker is stuffers from a poor STAB combo, but does have a solid speed tier and solid enough defenses (especially with a great defensive typing), which again isn't obviously overwhelming.

Disregard all that is if does keep its speed control moves, but without them I think Genesect would actually be viable in OU.

It was never the speed boosting that broke it. BoltBeam, with the option of a free choice boost, alongside STAB U-Turn, while also being fairly fast makes it rough. And it can tera into a defensive type if needed also. Plus, boots to prevent hazard damage... no way it sticks in the format.

 

[Pabloaram]

forretress love

that doesnt exist even with Scizor and Genesect out of the picture lmao

 

[Roshino]

Instead of talking about Darkrai, how about we talk about our favorite Bug/Steel.

Our other favorite Bug/Steel.

That's right, we should do the traditional thing and test Genesect. Unlike past tests, in SV Genesect is actually losing something - reports are that it no longer has Shift Gear, Rock Polish, or Extreme Speed. If true, that means its speed control is crippled; it can still run scarf sets, but a pivot that lacks Spikes immunity would really prefer HDB, and if you're not pivoting then Booster Valiant does the job better.

As a pivot, it's really just better Scizor, but a better version of a B- mon isn't clearly problematic. As a mixed attacker is stuffers from a poor STAB combo, but does have a solid speed tier and solid enough defenses (especially with a great defensive typing), which again isn't obviously overwhelming.

Disregard all that is if does keep its speed control moves, but without them I think Genesect would actually be viable in OU.

On the physical banded/pivot side of things, losing Extreme Speed is insane since Scizor just outclasses it as speed control (Technician BP fucks up A9T and Iron Valiant, omnipresent threats), with Genesect having some extra bulk to show for it.
Now, its Special/Mixed sets will for sure cause some tomfoolery

 

[arnimacarni]

lmfao

I'll tell you, to me, the second-most important thing after OU what you do is never, ever Tera. Don’t Tera. Don’t allow Tera in OU. If there’s a Fairy Kingambit in front of you, go through it. Tera Blast over it. Tera Blast around it. But get to the other side of that Flying Kingambit.

Let me tell you, this whole OU discussion thread stands so strongly against Tera, I logged into Smogon and said "Wow, these are some people that hate Tera". Some of the brave ones, you might even say. Always fighting against Sleepy Ghold yeah you gotta keep fighting against Sleepy Ghold but the truth is that Finch is a good friend of mine, I always invited him to my Resort Area in Sinnoh and told him "Finch, they're gonna eat you ALIVE if you don't quickban Kingambit" and look at him now. TAIL between his legs. Such a shame, such a bright mind but couldn't keep up, with me. The Don-dozo of Smogon Singles. And we're going to march into that Council Meeting and folks you're gonna have so many bans, with me you're gonna have everything banned before DLC2, not my friend Garganacl tho, he's one of the few good ones. Told him in 97 to invest in salt and look at him now. But everyone else is going to get banned to UUbers, funny tier isn't it? UUbers? With me as your tier leader we're only going to have OU and leave Palkia-Origin to rust. No HIGH BST MONS in my OU.

 

[Alternator]

i never saw genesect in OU the last few gens, why would nerfing it bring an unviable mon (as said above--genesect currently isn't viable in OU) i never see in OU up to the tier?

to prevent this from being a pure shitpost two-liner, i think that there's no real harm in freeing darkrai for DLC2 since we're unbanning multiple threats already. while I think it's going to be silly and get quickbanned within a week, if we're freeing mons like Moon and Sneasler again, what's one more? either way, it will put to rest the discussion.

Genesect has been too fast and strong for OU, so it's been kicked up to Ubers. Losing Extreme Speed (and also its ability to run Rock Polish and Shift Gear, but mostly Extreme Speed) cuts down on the versatility it offers, making it easier both to predict and to deal with.

I'm suggesting it'll be viable now instead of overpowered.

Bro please do not test Genesect that mon is dummy broken

Like Zamazenta, right? Like Blaziken going into Gen 8? There's a reason Genesect has been tried in OU repeatedly, it's been too strong for OU but not by that much, and we've seen huge power creep plus it looks to be taking a nerf.

 

[skippergamez]

Let me tell you, this whole OU discussion thread stands so strongly against Tera, I logged into Smogon and said "Wow, these are some people that hate Tera". Some of the brave ones, you might even say. Always fighting against Sleepy Ghold yeah you gotta keep fighting against Sleepy Ghold but the truth is that Finch is a good friend of mine, I always invited him to my Resort Area in Sinnoh and told him "Finch, they're gonna eat you ALIVE if you don't quickban Kingambit" and look at him now. TAIL between his legs. Such a shame, such a bright mind but couldn't keep up, with me. The Don-dozo of Smogon Singles. And we're going to march into that Council Meeting and folks you're gonna have so many bans, with me you're gonna have everything banned before DLC2, not my friend Garganacl tho, he's one of the few good ones. Told him in 97 to invest in salt and look at him now. But everyone else is going to get banned to UUbers, funny tier isn't it? UUbers? With me as your tier leader we're only going to have OU and leave Palkia-Origin to rust. No HIGH BST MONS in my OU.

Tera is a woke, far-left, socialist concept, of course

I think we should drop stuff like Darkrai, Annihilape, etc. because we’re dropping Roaring Moon, Gliscor, Volcarona, etc. Cause if we’re dropping them, why not everything else?

 

[gregdawiz]

Guys we should definitely drop Kyogre. We would have plenty of pokemon to wall it such as Clodsire and Waterpon.

 

[Finchinator]

no

 

[Finchinator]

^my response to the last 294 pages, not just the last post

 

[Moyashi]

here's a reason Genesect has been tried in OU repeatedly, it's been too strong for OU but not by that much

Uh, yeah it was by that much. There's good reason it's been banned every gen since its release even as the power level rose more each gen. Even last gen when it actually technically weaker than prior gens it was still too good, and was quickbanned.

 

[Talpr0ne]

I think the idea of testing Genesect without its event moves has some merits if we're already testing Darkrai, but we don't even know if it's actually going to be in the game yet

 

[Smashburn]

 

[Bakugames]

Tera is a woke, far-left, socialist concept, of course

yooo tera is based actually?

have you guys noticed a rise in balance after the sneasler ban? not to say ho isnt omnipresent but i face a lot more balance and bo teams than before. i dont think theyre The Most optimal teams compared to some ho teams but theyre still perfectly fine and much easier to run than before

 

[morangotango]

This gen is astronomically more offensive than gen 8

Dont u dare saying it again. Anything could dynamax spam Max airstream and sweeps entire teams. This gen the councils are knocking any offensive mon to Ubers.

Kingambit and Last Respects are nothing close to Fishious Rend and Gorilla Tactics, that didnt need falling allies to make people ragequit.

Gen 9 is all about support. Lead with kingambit or legion/hound and enemy team will laugh of your face

 

[Bakugames]

Dont u dare saying it again. Anything could dynamax spam Max airstream and sweeps entire teams. This gen the councils are knocking any offensive mon to Ubers.

dmax lasted 2 weeks

 

[morangotango]

dmax lasted 2 weeks

as a random battle lover I used to have a lot of fun turning tables with any mon with a flying move last gen lol

 

[BolTingBlazie]

as a random battle lover I used to have a lot of fun turning tables with any mon with a flying move last gen lol

Dynamax definitely was overpowered in randbats to the point of making kantonian farfetch'd good there which is funny to think about

 

[YNM]

Genesect has been too fast and strong for OU, so it's been kicked up to Ubers. Losing Extreme Speed (and also its ability to run Rock Polish and Shift Gear, but mostly Extreme Speed) cuts down on the versatility it offers, making it easier both to predict and to deal with.

This right here has always been the problem with Genesect, not just Speed control, which btw would still be somewhat of a thing even in the scenario of it lacking E-speed, Rock Polish and Shift Gear, since Scarf + STAB U-turn will always be a fantastic combo. Hell, I could even see it running Hone Claws + Flame Charge if you really wanted to try a Sweeper set. Considering the AMAZING move coverage it has, the Download boost making it even stronger and all of the sets it could run (Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Mixed Attacker with Life Orb or HDB etc.), it ain't hard to figure out why it would still be broken. Let's also remember that Bug/Steel is one of the best defensive typings out there, being weak only to Fire, which does increase Genesect's overall longevity to a certain extent, at least compared to your average fast offensive mon. Now, if only there was some kind of mechanic added in Gen 9 to get rid of this glaring weakness while also increasing your overall damage output... oh wait, there is! And if that wasn't enough of a buff, Genesect also has Techno Blast, which might as well be a stronger Tera Blast with potential STAB. But wait, let's assume you'd wanna run Tera Blast regardless... you guys do realize that Tera Blast would continuously change from Special to Physical and viceversa because of Download, right?