Yeah, it could actually do a decent job in a lot of match ups, but the limitation of 1 mega per team is what caused some megas not getting much usage even if they were good in the meta, simply because others were better
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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I swear that most people who talk about dropping Ubers here, especially those who so obviously do so without knowing why they were banned in the first place, are just using it as a superiority-flexing exercise. Whether it be because they want to "know something others don't" about how Darkrai is secretly balanced or whatever, or because they fantasize about leading the charge on a new change and being seen as an innovator and revolutionary, or just because they want to be contrarian. It's a conspiracy theorist mindset coached in the language of a community for people way too into a children's video game. As with most conspiracy theorists, it is not worth seriously engaging with except to point out how little they know about the subject. It is especially not worth engaging with when it's theorymon about a Pokemon that hasn't even been released yet.
In an attempt to spark a more fruitful conversation, I have a question: how do you decide between Amoonguss and Slowking-Galar in the teambuilder? While there's obviously a lot of differences between these Pokemon, with Amoonguss having access to Spore and Clear Smog but lacking Chilly Reception and having lower overall damage output, I feel like they typically end up serving a similar role of "specially bulky Poison that is less passive than Toxapex and can cripple switchins with status". Their resistance profiles also feel quite similar, and both naturally synergize well with Pokemon like Ting-Lu, Garganacl, Rotom-Wash, and Heatran.
In my personal teambuilding, it really feels like I decide based almost entirely on "Am I weaker to Zapdos or to Knock Off Valiant?", which is obviously a fairly one-dimensional way to judge the merits of this pair when there are a lot of very tangible differences between the two.
In an attempt to spark a more fruitful conversation, I have a question: how do you decide between Amoonguss and Slowking-Galar in the teambuilder? While there's obviously a lot of differences between these Pokemon, with Amoonguss having access to Spore and Clear Smog but lacking Chilly Reception and having lower overall damage output, I feel like they typically end up serving a similar role of "specially bulky Poison that is less passive than Toxapex and can cripple switchins with status". Their resistance profiles also feel quite similar, and both naturally synergize well with Pokemon like Ting-Lu, Garganacl, Rotom-Wash, and Heatran.
In my personal teambuilding, it really feels like I decide based almost entirely on "Am I weaker to Zapdos or to Knock Off Valiant?", which is obviously a fairly one-dimensional way to judge the merits of this pair when there are a lot of very tangible differences between the two.
Amongus is for big stall Glowking is for small stall
In an attempt to spark a more fruitful conversation, I have a question: how do you decide between Amoonguss and Slowking-Galar in the teambuilder? While there's obviously a lot of differences between these Pokemon, with Amoonguss having access to Spore and Clear Smog but lacking Chilly Reception and having lower overall damage output, I feel like they typically end up serving a similar role of "specially bulky Poison that is less passive than Toxapex and can cripple switchins with status". Their resistance profiles also feel quite similar, and both naturally synergize well with Pokemon like Ting-Lu, Garganacl, Rotom-Wash, and Heatran.
In my personal teambuilding, it really feels like I decide based almost entirely on "Am I weaker to Zapdos or to Knock Off Valiant?", which is obviously a fairly one-dimensional way to judge the merits of this pair when there are a lot of very tangible differences between the two.
Rock Tomb Great Tusk
Great Tusk @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake / Headlong Rush
- Rock Tomb
- Protect / Rapid Spin / Ice Spinner / Knock Off / Close Combat
- Protect / Rapid Spin / Ice Spinner / Knock Off / Close Combat
(Still working on the OU Kricketune testing/writeup stuff, I'll have it done likely after the Tera suspect - as it would drastically change how the Kricketune writeup would look/the set would turn out)
Great Tusk @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake / Headlong Rush
- Rock Tomb
- Protect / Rapid Spin / Ice Spinner / Knock Off / Close Combat
- Protect / Rapid Spin / Ice Spinner / Knock Off / Close Combat
A fun and unique Offensive Utility Spinner Great Tusk variant I've been messing around with as of late. Rock Tomb (100% chance to the opposing Pokemon's speed by one stage) is excellent speed control while still providing potent EdgeQuake coverage. It's a great option to surprise threats like Air Balloon Sneasler/Gholdengo who think they can come in on Rapid Spin/Earthquake. Protect is for scouting + additional Leftovers recovery, Rapid Spin is for hazards, Ice Spinner is a great coverage option, Knock Off is also great coverage with additional utility too, and Close Combat is great STAB but has somewhat redundant coverage comparatively.
The speed control provided by Rock Tomb further means that Tusks's 300 speed benchmark with Jolly is now able to outspeed the following Pokemon when they hit -1:
Cinderace (-1 Speed = 246 at 252 EV Positive Nature)
Dragapult (-1 Speed = 280 at 252 EV Positive Nature)
Enamorus (-1 Speed = 228 at 252 EV Positive Nature)
Gholdengo Scarf (-1 = 292 at 252 EV Positive Nature + Choice Scarf)
Iron Moth without Quark Drive Speed Boost (-1 Speed = 233 at 252 EV Positive Nature)
Iron Treads without Quark Drive Speed Boost (-1 Speed = 228 at 252 EV Positive Nature)
Iron Valiant without Quark Drive Speed Boost (-1 Speed = 242 at 252 EV Positive Nature)
Roaring Moon without Protosynthesis Speed Boost (-1 Speed = 246 at 252 EV Positive Nature)
Rotom-Wash Choice Scarf (-1 Speed = 297 at 252 EV Positive Nature + Choice Scarf)
Sandy Shocks (-1 Speed = 220 at 252 EV Positive Nature)
Sneasler without Unburden (-1 Speed = 248 at 252 EV Positive Nature)
Walking Wake without Protosynthesis Speed Boost (-1 Speed = 232 at 252 EV Positive Nature)
Zamazenta (-1 Speed = 274 at 252 EV Positive Nature)
Zapdos (-1 Speed = 218 at 252 EV Positive Nature)
Rock Tomb, despite only having 60 Base Power, also hits some really surprising damage benchmarks against a multitude of threats - either 2HKOing them, having a high potential to 2HKO them, or 3/4HKOing them, putting particular threats in range to be outsped and finished off with Earthquake or a second Rock Tomb with chip damage depending on the percentage.
252 Atk Great Tusk Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Baxcalibur: 142-168 (38.2 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 168-198 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 84-99 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 178-210 (61.5 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Moth: 198-234 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Moltres: 292-344 (76.2 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pelipper: 134-158 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 204 Def Talonflame: 272-324 (75.5 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Rock Tomb vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 112-134 (33.9 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 152-180 (47.3 - 56%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO
In addition to my usual huge writeups for sub-OU mons in OU, I'm going to start adding these smaller posts into the mix for unique movesets on established OU mons for additional variety! I hope you all like them!
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Great post Mork but the more calcs i see the less mention of the only reason to actually run Tomb
Good catch, added to the main post - can't believe I forgot Moltres, also adding Talonflame too since I've been seeing defensive variants more commonly lately
252 Atk Great Tusk Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Moltres: 292-344 (76.2 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 204 Def Talonflame: 272-324 (75.5 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
the underrated and PU staple Great Tusk finally gets the spotlight. Great stuff as always Morkal.
But in all seriousness, your dedication to finding niches for lower tier mons that actually work astounds me. Definitely looking forward to your post on the Delelelelewhooop bug in the future.
What are you talking about? Darkrai is totally balanced.
No I'm not biased don't look at my name too closely.
If Zygarde comes back, it will be able to Tera Fire so you can't even try to use Avalugg to deal with it. Yeah, keep that thing far away from OU
In general, I feel like Glowking fits more easily on most balance teams and some BO teams due to its pivoting ability + ability to force switches with fsight even when it is not on the field. While it's not as good as Spore, it can still cripple the opponent's team with twave pretty effectively. As others have said before Glowking + subDD ice body Bax is pretty demonic, would recommend tryingI swear that most people who talk about dropping Ubers here, especially those who so obviously do so without knowing why they were banned in the first place, are just using it as a superiority-flexing exercise. Whether it be because they want to "know something others don't" about how Darkrai is secretly balanced or whatever, or because they fantasize about leading the charge on a new change and being seen as an innovator and revolutionary, or just because they want to be contrarian. It's a conspiracy theorist mindset coached in the language of a community for people way too into a children's video game. As with most conspiracy theorists, it is not worth seriously engaging with except to point out how little they know about the subject. It is especially not worth engaging with when it's theorymon about a Pokemon that hasn't even been released yet.
In an attempt to spark a more fruitful conversation, I have a question: how do you decide between Amoonguss and Slowking-Galar in the teambuilder? While there's obviously a lot of differences between these Pokemon, with Amoonguss having access to Spore and Clear Smog but lacking Chilly Reception and having lower overall damage output, I feel like they typically end up serving a similar role of "specially bulky Poison that is less passive than Toxapex and can cripple switchins with status". Their resistance profiles also feel quite similar, and both naturally synergize well with Pokemon like Ting-Lu, Garganacl, Rotom-Wash, and Heatran.
In my personal teambuilding, it really feels like I decide based almost entirely on "Am I weaker to Zapdos or to Knock Off Valiant?", which is obviously a fairly one-dimensional way to judge the merits of this pair when there are a lot of very tangible differences between the two.
Sub DD Bax would be like what... Lefties, Tera Fire, Ice Body, Glaive Rush/Tera Blast/Sub/DD? Something like that?
I run Tera Fairy with Icicle Crash and EQ personally, and I think that's the standard set. Gives you a better matchup against Pult and the Tusk variants that opt to run CC
Uh, you
Uh, I haven't played USUM much, but I'm pretty sure a move that has 0 immunities and has one of the best offensive typings paired with stab would be mind-melting levels of braindead
*Reads up on Thousand Arrows*
...What the absolute tits? Ignores Flying's immunity... Well, okay, there's actually ONE Pokemon that can withstand Zygarde's STABs.
May I present you all with a little friend we've forgotten about?
now i know this isn't about me—all i've suggested is testing a thing to see if it would be worth dropping, not insisting it's balanced or anything (and to be honest i do think it would probably still be broken but the important part is that there is no way to fucking know until empirical evidence is given)—but this feels needlessly hostile. you're calling people narcissistic conspiracy theorist idiots for holding viewpoints like "maybe this mon that was banned 15 years ago and never tested in ou isn't as immediately broken as everyone says it is"?
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To me, suggesting an unban without doing the bare minimum of research of why the mon was banned in the first place is actively disrespectful both to the entire tiering process and to everyone who participated in the test (and by extension, those who played in the broader metagame around it). I don't think responding to such disrespectful hubris in a harsh tone is unwarranted. Replying to it with a 5-paragraph essay as though it's a legitimate proposal when it doesn't even know what ground it's standing on frames it as a "debate" and creates the false impression that there's legitimacy to the standpoint — and indeed, maybe [x mon] is balanced now for some reason or another, but if you want to make that case, you should do the bare minimum of researching why it got banned in the first place. The search feature is right there; it's easy to find suspect threads if you look, or — if one is understandably uncomfortable navigating forums — to just ask in a Discord server or in PS! chat or in the SQSA thread rather than JAQing off here.
If a philosophy student proposed that Wittgenstein was full of bull but had never read Tractatus, their professor would very rightly return some very unkind comments on their essay. I don't think that's hostility, it's just maintaining basic standards of realism and respect. Obviously competitive mons isn't 20th century analytic philosophy, but I don't think that justifies such an arrogant attitude (if anything, the fact that it's significantly more accessible makes such behaviour less excusable).
IDK, I guess I am taking this too seriously, but it's frustrating to read the Metagame discussion thread and have 5 pages straight of substanceless talks by people who heard that Giratina got suspect tested once and thought it'd be funny to theorymon about it without doing any of the legwork to actually, like, run calcs or read past discussions or just try it out in some games (it's super easy to play against yourself on PS!). You might characterize my attitudes here as elitist, but I'd argue that allowing people to ruin the thread like this makes competitive Pokemon more elitist by shoving serious conversation into the backrooms of private Discord servers and friend groups rather than having a public place where people who are interested in reading serious discussion can get insights into the metagame. r/stunfisk exists, SQSA exists, PS! chats exist, or hell, I probably wouldn't take offense if they simply phrased these proposals more modestly so as to prevent it from morphing into a thread-monopolizing debate. It's just frustrating that this thread is genuinely the best public-facing space on the internet for serious OU discussion (that I'm aware of, at least), and yet has its bar constantly lowered by this sort of useless theorymon.
While some "fun" topics are fine sometimes, specially as most of the current conversation is around tera, I think this one has ran its course. Lets please try to move on.
In other news, got around to trying that Guts Hera/Wish Vapo team earlier today. 3-0-2 so far (dc'd on two games/didn't count them as they were entirely unfair matches lmao.) So far I'm finding that Hera really struggles to get in most times. However, Vaporeon finds plenty of time to come in and either just click Chilling Water or Wish and GTFO into someone else.
My Dirge absolutely loves having the bonus HP. Makes annoying match-ups like CM Stored Power shenanigans a lot less denting to the team.
My Dirge absolutely loves having the bonus HP. Makes annoying match-ups like CM Stored Power shenanigans a lot less denting to the team.
Have you guys seen 
usage go up over the past month? It was nearly lost when home first dropped. I guess hazard control is really valuable in this meta. Its speed tier is also great.
usage go up over the past month? It was nearly lost when home first dropped. I guess hazard control is really valuable in this meta. Its speed tier is also great.Yeah, I find I run into Cinder more often than I run into Meow. Court Change is one hell of a beast and being in a good 120 speed tier with respectable Attack (and being probably the only viable physical Fire mon around) gives it some good potential.Have you guys seen
I actually don't like court change all that much simply because great tusk is so easy to slot on a team with cinderace anyways, and cinderace has crazy good coverage and okhos a large portion of the tier, and u-turn chunks whatever it doesn't. Cinderace with pyro ball/sucker punch/HJK/uturn has easily been the most overperforming mon I've had recently, it's the mvp of nearly every team I've played recently.
Court change is a crazy move, but man is being able to ohko dracapult/kingambit (when it's not +2)/ghodengo/samurott/enarmous/sneasler with hazards up nice, while also being able to just click uturn and rip 20%+ off of mons with no downside. And if you want to get weird, switching HJK with gunk shot drops samurott (which eats huge chunks from u-turn) and picks up iron valiant My biggest gripe with Court Change is that while it's insane vs hazard stacking mons and defensive teams in general, this meta is hugely offensive and clicking a move on cinderace that isn't u-turn or that doesn't ohko whatever's across from you is highly likely to get your cinderace sacked. Great tusk is such a good spinner because you can spin for free vs nearly any physical attacker, and cinderace doesn't get that privilege.
Court change is a crazy move, but man is being able to ohko dracapult/kingambit (when it's not +2)/ghodengo/samurott/enarmous/sneasler with hazards up nice, while also being able to just click uturn and rip 20%+ off of mons with no downside. And if you want to get weird, switching HJK with gunk shot drops samurott (which eats huge chunks from u-turn) and picks up iron valiant My biggest gripe with Court Change is that while it's insane vs hazard stacking mons and defensive teams in general, this meta is hugely offensive and clicking a move on cinderace that isn't u-turn or that doesn't ohko whatever's across from you is highly likely to get your cinderace sacked. Great tusk is such a good spinner because you can spin for free vs nearly any physical attacker, and cinderace doesn't get that privilege.
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i agree its so versatile because of its great movepool. You can run offensive, bulky, or support variants that slot into many teams. Its very good into the meta right now imo.
Notable moves it has : Gunk Shot, Sucker Punch, High Jump Kick, Low Kick, Pyro Ball, U-Turn, Will-O-Wisp, Court Change, Iron Head, Electro Ball, Zen Headbutt, Taunt, Bulk Up, Swords Dance, etc.
luckie
unluckiest player
I've never really been a fan of Court Change to begin with, didn't click with how I teambuilt, and like Floatstonemafia said, Tusk is right there if I wanted hazard control. Though honestly, that sort of thinking is probably why I never come up with interesting stuff on my own, as I usually use what's comfortable or tried and true lmao
I noticed it a week or two ago that the standard Ace set lowkey matches well into the meta. The thing I love most about him is being able to spam Pyro Ball on Zapdos, that mon can be a headache for me but Ace deals with it no problem, or at the very least makes people think twice about sending it in.Have you guys seen
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