I find it to be quite amusing that Moltres is a side-grade to Talonflame.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
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Honestly would argue that it's almost a full on upgrade, obviously you're losing defog and speed, but pigeonholding talonflame into running defog just isn't super worth it in this meta.
Moltres on the other hand has much better bulk, doesn't want to invest in speed, and has a surprising 125 Special Attack stat, meaning that it dishes out a lot more damage than Talonflame.
I personally consider it a side grade, as Defog is a major boon over Moltres. Both want boots, both are Fire/Flying, different stat spreads, both want Flame Body as a bulky mon, similar move pools... Moltres has more raw bulk and power, but Talonflame can catch more things with it's base speed and remove hazards. I think it's up to personal preference.
Moltres has better bulk than Talonflame, with the special one being the most relevant on the fairies check topic, and as long Moltres hits it can ohko Enamorus (not calm mind) and Valiant while Talonflame can't if they are at full.
I like the way you think, that tera ice Sandy Shocks, ooh its calling my name
Offensively, yes. Defensively, no. I'm looking at TFlame vs Moltres in a defensive role. Moltres beats out TFlame without any debating when it comes to smacking things hard.
12 SpA Moltres Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 174-205 (60.2 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
12 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 142-168 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
12 SpA Moltres Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 438-516 (151.5 - 178.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
12 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 178-211 (61.5 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
12 SpA Talonflame Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 117-138 (40.4 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
12 SpA Talonflame Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 284-336 (98.2 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
12 SpA Talonflame Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 93-109 (32.1 - 37.7%) -- 92.3% chance to 3HKO
12 SpA Talonflame Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 112-133 (38.7 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Moltres hits way harder regardless, but Talonflame has speed and Defog over Moltres for defensive purposes.
0 Speed Bold Talonflame outpaces anything Jolly/Timid 252 EV, base 81 Speed or below without +1s, and beats anything Adamant/Modest 252 EVs base 94 Speed or less.
Moltres forcing sw
Switch ins because of its better offensive profile makes it better IMO, just look at Corviknight that even if checks defensively something most of the time the only thing it can do is u-turn, that is why a lot of people don't run it even if it is the only OU defoger. Also, Moltres having a slower u-turn than Talonflame is something that I consider better for a defensive pivot.
Yeah, a slower U-Turn, if you run it, is a valid point in Moltres' favor. But at that point, would we go Bold Moltres, or Relaxed for even slower U-Turns?
honestly, i miss posts like "glaceon is actually good, look at this scenario i dreamed up where it works" and "ban amoonguss because nothing beats it except the stuff that beats it". we need some more sincerely batshit takes on this forum
(edit: good lord did i open the shitposting floodgates with this one. these have been the most entertaining couple days i've had on this forum)
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DaddyBuzzwole killed JFK
let me clarify: batshit takes that don't blow my cover
You want a batshit take? Gardevoir is exceptionally underrated and can put a major dent into a lot of Pokemon, if not straight OHKO them.
I'm being unironic here. I've been playing Gardevoir on a few teams, and especially on my "Da Bidnizz" team (a more serious team), and it puts in so much work with Scarf + Trace. You OHKO to 2HKO so many things that want to switch into you (but not all of them) and can catch non-speed set up Pokemon off guard with the Scarf.
I'd say they should unban AlephGalactus for the duration of the second tera suspect, but i don't actually think the forums could take his return.
For real, though, Tera hatred always brings out the real crazies. If you thought this thread was deranged in the past, wait until you see what gets kicked up with the second official announcement. You're going to see ad hominem attacks and non-sequitur arguments so bad, you'll be begging for the return of Glaceon Guy.
Unban Iron Bundle he is fine now that home is out :)
Has anyone considered wigglytuff as an anti pult Mon? It's a hard counter to pretty much every set it runs apart from banded with psychic fangs. It's also got wish passing and sponges special moves that don't have too much power behind them.
Wigglytuff @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Frisk
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Wish
- Protect
- Thunder Wave
A set like this works quite well on fatter teams, or even stall in niche cases as a kinda special alomomola. Frisk is got for scouting choices set, and did I mention it gets rocks? Like if you want wiggly in ou
Also might post RMT with this guy :)
Wigglytuff @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Frisk
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Wish
- Protect
- Thunder Wave
A set like this works quite well on fatter teams, or even stall in niche cases as a kinda special alomomola. Frisk is got for scouting choices set, and did I mention it gets rocks? Like if you want wiggly in ou
Also might post RMT with this guy :)
Lets implement a new restriction to allow Pao in the tier, if you get a kill with Weavile then it turns into Pao, just like battle bond.
For a non-Wish build, I'd actually go and max both defenses, ala Chansey/Blissey. 140 is a great HP stat by itself. Imagine if it got Regenerator, too.Has anyone considered wigglytuff as an anti pult Mon? It's a hard counter to pretty much every set it runs apart from banded with psychic fangs. It's also got wish passing and sponges special moves that don't have too much power behind them.
Wigglytuff @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Frisk
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Wish
- Protect
- Thunder Wave
A set like this works quite well on fatter teams, or even stall in niche cases as a kinda special alomomola. Frisk is got for scouting choices set, and did I mention it gets rocks? Like if you want wiggly in ou
Also might post RMT with this guy :)
Stall is passive you say?
Serious answer, just go look at the UU metagame discussion thread. It's much less conversation but most posts there goes in-depth on relevant metagame trends and is of a pretty high quality with regular contributions from tournament players and council members. I think it's basically the ideal version of what a metagame discussion thread should look like.
With that said, this is a far more popular tier so of course there will be more discussion, and whatever goes on in here can be entertaining in its own way I suppose...
Temple of Doom is a Christmas movie.
reece100 set his Hisuian Samurott out on the congressional floor during Janurary 6th
As I understand it, discussions for the lower tiers are a lot more tightly focused because OU is the standard format and therefore that's where the most people are going to end up. OU is like a starting point, and UU or LC or whatever else is something you find as you go and naturally move onto if that's your thing. Of course this thread has the most chaotic discussions and out of left field takes because participants in other tiers and formats filter themselves by being there to begin with. I kinda prefer the chaos and I'm honestly much more the type for how unserious this place gets, so OU is my home. That, and I'm the kind of unfun bane of party nights who embodies this image:
Current Stalls are. 90% of them only rely on PP stalling the opponent, without a win condition vs opposing Stalls, should they encounter one. In the post you are quoting I posted a SM Stall that worked pretty well for me back in those days. Its really different from current ones. It still tries to cover all of the Meta, but that all of the meta includes opposing Stalls, which there are ways to break. It also has item clause, btw.
Another example: https://pokepast.es/133a5ff9478de610 . Excadrill hazards can't be blocked by Mega Sableye, so opposing Stalls need to actually use Defog to remvoe hazards. Serperior is an additional win condition.
https://pokepast.es/8ae386f210c80fd9 < Strong defensive core, but with SD Gliscor + Magnezone to trap Steels. Has item clause (not on purpose).
https://pokepast.es/5bfd946992b4da28 < ORAS team. Mega Charizard-Y apart from having good defensive profile, is a good breaker too, even without an offensive spread. Everything immune to Toxic is hit by strong Flamethrower. Heatran is an exception, so he gets hit by EQ instead.
https://pokepast.es/4ee5d153b599be62 < Similar stuff, with Kyurem as additional win condition with both Pressure and Dragon Tail to get the hazards damage.
https://pokepast.es/64a4eebaa06a9b75 < Another Oras Stall. Under some conditions, Reuniclus can sweep opposing Stalls.
https://pokepast.es/5ad96421c6f1c80c < BW Hail Stall. Its a Stall that uses Hail as passive damage and also has a breaker with defensive presence named Conkeldurr.
https://pokepast.es/6ab15628f836690b < More BW. This one uses hazards and Sand, having a win condition in Reuniclus.
https://pokepast.es/b57783d10f9323b4 < Team made in 2013, without legendaries and with item clause (it was on purpose this way). Doesn,t work as well anymore, since meta changed a lot. However, it won in BW Cup R1 this year (2023). Lots of hazards and a Reuniclus that can sweep and disrupt opposing Stalls with Trick + Flame Orb.
What I am trying to point here are not my skills as a builder, but the fact that Stalls used to be far less passive than they currently are. Metas were very different of course, but the point stands, Stalls used to have more ways to win games other than making the opponent forfeit and PP Stall. Item Clause (which I don,t think will ever be implemented) also won,t hurt Stall more than Offense. It will require adaption for sure, but so will require offense.
I think what he was trying to joke about is that stalls should be inherently passive because thats kind of what stall does, sit there get some chip damage and take hits. Aggressive stall could still exist (like the teams you built) but yeah
Idk what you're getting at with the item clause stuff tho
Firstly those are some really good/creative teams, thanks for sharing. How much of current stalls being passive is an issue with people's building vs offensive pressure in SV OU forcing these incredibly passive structures? I don't play stall that much but in both the post-Shed Tail meta and immediate HOME meta this seemed to be the case. Don't really know about SS but as you sorta mentioned SM stalls seemed a bit more offensive than current ones.
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