Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[VannAccessible]

I’m like the resident Trick Room enjoyer, and honestly, I think TR is LESS viable in OU post Home, and mind you, I believed this to be true before Magenera got banned. Ursaluna is a stupendously good breaker, I’m not going to lie, but full TR is not sustainable in this meta, as the playstyle is struggling to leverage its bulk because of Samurott-H.

Prior to Home, Sash Hatterene was a great TR lead specifically because it could set TR, deny hazards and either start attacking or off itself with Healing Wish to get a breaker in. This early to mid game hazard denial was really important to the TR game plan flow chart.

Hat cannot stop Hamurott from Spiking on it, so its teammates are constantly getting chipped by Spikes. So what are they supposed to do, run HDB or hazard control? Both are bad options for TR mons and setters need things like Mental Herb, Lum Berry for Spore etc, while breakers need damage boosting items.

Tl;dr: Ursaluna is not close to broken, because full Trick Room is bad in the Samurott-H HO meta.

 

[YubelVT]

Ultra Dyna Mega Tera Coping that LandoT goes his moves back. The reason of that was because they wanted a plain field for VGC to new players that never play older game cannot get access to Toxic Lando for instance. Same as everymon

I don't think you could... ever use transfer mons (post gen 5 at least)? Every single time Lando was good in VGC it was with tutor and tm moves, not transfer moves. The point would be different if these were transfer only egg moves (i.e. you had to have them in a previous generation to hatch them in the current one) but they aren't, lando is a legendary who cannot breed. GameFreak is just cruel. On a related note, I'd KILL for Zapdos to have defog again I desperately want offensive defog zapdos (or gapdos) for my own teams

 

[RaichuBestMon]

I’m like the resident Trick Room enjoyer, and honestly, I think TR is LESS viable in OU post Home, and mind you, I believed this to be true before Magenera got banned. Ursaluna is a stupendously good breaker, I’m not going to lie, but full TR is not sustainable in this meta, as the playstyle is struggling to leverage its bulk because of Samurott-H.

Prior to Home, Sash Hatterene was a great TR lead specifically because it could set TR, deny hazards and either start attacking or off itself with Healing Wish to get a breaker in. This early to mid game hazard denial was really important to the TR game plan flow chart.

Hat cannot stop Hamurott from Spiking on it, so its teammates are constantly getting chipped by Spikes. So what are they supposed to do, run HDB or hazard control? Both are bad options for TR mons and setters need things like Mental Herb, Lum Berry for Spore etc, while breakers need damage boosting items.

Tl;dr: Ursaluna is not close to broken, because full Trick Room is bad in the Samurott-H HO meta.

Is Samurott used even at high/top elo?
He seems so weak, slow, frail and useless. When he's on my team I always feel its a wasted team slot.

 

[sims796]

usage doesn't determine viability/brokenness. turns out a lot of people dont think very hard about their team composition and just go "tera normal facade go brrrr", who knew?

Please, respectfully keep your nose out of my playstyle, thank you very much. I've spent quite some time ruminating on the best possible tera, from defensive Ghost to Trailblaze grass (I saw the anime it looked cool), before giving up and going YOLO Normal, because what else even is the point?

I admit that I stick to more goofier teams, but one thing I have learned is that Luna really isn't hard to play around. Very diverse movepool, but it needs to hit the exact target with the exact move, otherwise they get in for free and he's setup bait since he's so slow. Trick Room is very fun, but it may be beyond me atm, since Luna can only hit but so much with it's movepool, and you only have three turns if you do things properly to get it out. Can't bust it out too early, or you'll risk being hardwalled by an option Luna couldn't one shot (and it needs to one shot).

All this to say that I don't really think Luna is busted or banworthy. And I should really try out the more defensive sets. It does get yawn after all.

 

[Lectrys]

Is Samurott used even at high/top elo?
He seems so weak, slow, frail and useless. When he's on my team I always feel its a wasted team slot.

Yes, high/top ELO uses Samurott-H.

Here's LudwigFrog's RMT with a suicide lead Samu-H to boot, over 2000 ELO and reliable enough to get reqs: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ho-peaked-2039-elo-suspect-test-reqs.3722976/

I've caught Ctann (at least 1800-1900s ELO) in replays with a similar Samurott-H/Sneasler/Enamorus core as mine. Samurott-H jumps in on most Enamorus switch-ins at least once (unless some of them predict Samurott-H coming in with a move that Enamorus 4x resists) and even 2HKOes Skeledirge while burned. Sneasler conveniently drops off Samurott-H in front of switch-ins like Gholdengo and Skeledirge.

From my time playing with Samurott-H, it's only a wasted team slot if your opponent didn't load Rain, Sun, Trick Room, Psychic Surge, Heatran, Slowking-G, Gholdengo, Skeledirge, Kingambit, Ursaluna, Garganacl, Hoopa-U, Ceruledge, opposing Samurott-H, and likely more I'm missing. Heck, against stall, you can set up 3 layers of Spikes against Toxapex and burn at least 1 Recover PP. And others seem to like Samurott-H more against Hatterene more than I do.

 

[turd2]

Honestly zamazenta don’t feel too bad at all, whilst strong, it’s easy enough to deal with. Feels less impactful than quite a lot of other threats.

it doesn’t completely dissuade physical attackers.
here is a game where gambit easily beats it, in fact, gambit completely reverse sweeps against a 5-1 matchup.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1885809751-5x39n1ja5tji9xxfxnas7s6nnyex8h8pw

If you had pressed iron defense when Kingambit first came out (which is always the right play when your opponent has not yet used their tera) then you would have had 2 chances for stone edge to hit and probably won.

Instead, you went for the lazy body press while he did tera flying.

TLDR you misplayed.

 

[RaichuBestMon]

Yes, high/top ELO uses Samurott-H.

Here's LudwigFrog's RMT with a suicide lead Samu-H to boot, over 2000 ELO and reliable enough to get reqs: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ho-peaked-2039-elo-suspect-test-reqs.3722976/

I've caught Ctann (at least 1800-1900s ELO) in replays with a similar Samurott-H/Sneasler/Enamorus core as mine. Samurott-H jumps in on most Enamorus switch-ins at least once (unless some of them predict Samurott-H coming in with a move that Enamorus 4x resists) and even 2HKOes Skeledirge while burned. Sneasler conveniently drops off Samurott-H in front of switch-ins like Gholdengo and Skeledirge.

From my time playing with Samurott-H, it's only a wasted team slot if your opponent didn't load Rain, Sun, Trick Room, Psychic Surge, Heatran, Slowking-G, Gholdengo, Skeledirge, Kingambit, Ursaluna, Garganacl, Hoopa-U, Ceruledge, opposing Samurott-H, and likely more I'm missing. Heck, against stall, you can set up 3 layers of Spikes against Toxapex and burn at least 1 Recover PP. And others seem to like Samurott-H more against Hatterene more than I do.

It gets 2hko by every single mon you listed.
He can't check anything, just a pawn you throw out to die.
I think the reason why he is so obnoxious despite how garbage he is lies within his versatility: you never know if your opponent has knock off, sacred sword, grass knot, a priority (which one?), taunt, hydro pump, ice beam, etc. And you're never safe switching a mon to check him or make progress.

 

[VannAccessible]

It gets 2hko by every single mon you listed.
He can't check anything, just a pawn you throw out to die.
I think the reason why he is so obnoxious despite how garbage he is lies within his versatility: you never know if your opponent has knock off, sacred sword, grass knot, a priority (which one?), taunt, hydro pump, ice beam, etc. And you're never safe switching a mon to check him or make progress.

It’s a lead man; a lead that sets Spikes past Taunt and Magic Bounce.

On HO, the dominant playstyle right now, that is a legit niche, especially in a meta lacking consistent hazard control.

 

[I8NY]

I think the best solution to power creep is to accept that there is none. The only "solutions" there are would utterly annihilate the competitive singles as we know it. It sucks, but there's nothing we can do.

 

[MilkyWay]

Kingambit is definitely made broken by Tera, it would be so much easier to deal with if you could just... Close Combat it without risking to do just 30% with Booster Energy Great Tusk because it suddenly terad into a resist.

Gambit with tera is broken. Said it since the first chien pao ban. There are counters like iron hands for example but its still over the top. Fighting type went from a mid offensive typing to a mandatory defensive typing just to resist sucker punch. People talk about great tusk being the new landorus because of its usage but let's see how many people use it if gambit wasn't in the tier... sure tusk is good but half of them are there as a gambit check.

Ever since the volc and water shifu bans I've been of the opinion that gambit is warping the meta around it.

Here's a pretty high level ladder replay of tera gambit nearly pulling off a crazy comeback against me.

What's particularly egregious here is that gambit sets up on my tauros-aqua (which I started using SPECIFICALLY for gambit) while I am at 70% and have it intimidated.

Furthermore, I correctly predict the tera and hit him with two rain-boosted Raging Bulls (which even after a layer of spikes he survives).

I then have to win another 50-50 to get the roost of with my physically defensive Zapdos (which I also use in part because of gambit) and after that am barely able to kill him.

All of this after I carefully positioned myself the final ~8 ish turns to make sure gambit didn't get a free turn to set up and that I would get the intimidate off with Tauros.

And what's funny is if he was Black Glasses > Lum Berry he probably would've won anyway

 

[June Heat]

Don’t worry guys, we’ll keep Zama around to check Gambit. It worked with Magearna and Pao XD(this is joke and hyperbole pls don’t bash me)

 

[RaichuBestMon]

Ever since the volc and water shifu bans I've been of the opinion that gambit is warping the meta around it.

Here's a pretty high level ladder replay of tera gambit nearly pulling off a crazy comeback against me.

What's particularly egregious here is that gambit sets up on my tauros-aqua (which I started using SPECIFICALLY for gambit) while I am at 70% and have it intimidated.

Furthermore, I correctly predict the tera and hit him with two rain-boosted Raging Bulls (which even after a layer of spikes he survives).

I then have to win another 50-50 to get the roost of with my physically defensive Zapdos (which I also use in part because of gambit) and after that am barely able to kill him.

All of this after I carefully positioned myself the final ~8 ish turns to make sure gambit didn't get a free turn to set up and that I would get the intimidate off with Tauros.

And what's funny is if he was Black Glasses > Lum Berry he probably would've won anyway

Why do you use Samurott in the rain?
Wouldn't a electric immune/resist (ground or plant) mon be a better spike setter?
Hatterena gets folded by your team fire power anyways.

 

[AM]

It gets 2hko by every single mon you listed.
He can't check anything, just a pawn you throw out to die.
I think the reason why he is so obnoxious despite how garbage he is lies within his versatility: you never know if your opponent has knock off, sacred sword, grass knot, a priority (which one?), taunt, hydro pump, ice beam, etc. And you're never safe switching a mon to check him or make progress.

You ever thought about just not running Lando-T balance? You're clearly having bad luck with them lately lol.

 

[tococot]

Very diverse movepool, but it needs to hit the exact target with the exact move, otherwise they get in for free and he's setup bait since he's so slow

ok well why don't you just use tera normal giga impact that's the strongest set (and best)

 

[sims796]

ok well why don't you just use tera normal giga impact that's the strongest set (and best)

Way ahead of you, buddy. How do you think I maintain my pristine 1100 score?

I like to use it asap, first turn of trick room, to put the fear in my opponents. 3% of the time, it has a 100% success rate.

 

[RaichuBestMon]

You ever thought about just not running Lando-T balance? You're clearly having bad luck with them lately lol.

Rocky Helmet LandorusT is Art.
What's the point of playing comp if you ignore the mon crafted by the gods?
No seriously there's nothing more fun than using LandorusT as a resources throughout the match, chipping physical attacker here and there with RH, therefore ruining the opposent's gameplan through immaculate switching.

 

[sims796]

RH?

 

[Lectrys]

It gets 2hko by every single mon you listed.
He can't check anything, just a pawn you throw out to die.
I think the reason why he is so obnoxious despite how garbage he is lies within his versatility: you never know if your opponent has knock off, sacred sword, grass knot, a priority (which one?), taunt, hydro pump, ice beam, etc. And you're never safe switching a mon to check him or make progress.

Unless Heatran is Specs or Teras, Heatran can never 2HKO Samurott-H, so it is easy prey. If it Teras, I like bulky offence, so I revenge it with something else.

Slowking-G needs Focus Blast to 2HKO Samurott-H, and Focus Blast is quite unpopular on it (so are Nasty Plot sets, I guess).

Skeledirge cannot 2HKO without Torch Song boosts (hint: load Samu-H into Skeledirge immediately) but has a habit of leaving nasty burns so Skeledirge is the last mon Samu-H forces out.

Samurott-H is prone to mispredicting against Scarf Gholdengo, but it forces out all the others fine. Make It Rain can only 2HKO with Specs, although Samurott-H actually might not survive two switch-ins into Scarf Make It Rain.

Kingambit loves Teraing against Samurott-H, but it needs Swords Dance, Black Glasses or Tera Dark, and 5 KOed allies to even think about OHKOing Samu-H with Sucker Punch. Low Kick needs 4 fainted allies or Swords Dance to OHKO Samu-H on the switch, although Low Kick + Sucker Punch honestly actually is good enough at baseline.

The Samurott-H speed tie is always a risky one.

The main strategy against Ursaluna is to hope Trick Room is down, dent Ursaluna as mightily as possible (this includes with Samurott-H, who at least has priority), watch Ursaluna KO it, and then revenge with something else that hopefully cleans.

The main strategy against Garganacl is to force it to Tera and/or dent it as mightily as possible. The worst-case scenario is that I get up some Spikes and force a Body Press or Recover.

You can't switch anything completely safely into Hoopa-U, but at least Sucker Punch deals over half, and Mystic Water Razor Shell is an almost guaranteed OHKO.

Ceruledge Shadow Sneak is a joke against Samurott-H, and they need Focus Sash or Tera to survive Ceaseless Edge. Sucker Punch them if they survive and pray it never occurs to them to Close Combat immediately (the Weak Armor builds are better against Samu-H; the Flash Fire Bulk Up ones perform much worse and cannot even break Skeledirge).

 

[MilkyWay]

Why do you use Samurott in the rain?
Wouldn't a electric immune/resist (ground or plant) mon be a better spike setter?
Hatterena gets folded by your team fire power anyways.

Good question.

It's a choice scarf set inspired by a team coral fan posted in the OU Bazaar thread a couple weeks ago.

Main reasons are:

1) Offensive pressure of Ceaseless Edge (hits hard + fast) is a lot better than spikes. Even tho I can fold Hatterene, this avoids mind games that can stall out rain turns or bounce the spikes back onto me (I don't have any hazard removal)
2) It synergizes well with my team strategy of wearing down water resists for Tauros to sweep. I save bulk up tauros for late games since it matches up well against gambit, and Sam-H is good at bringing in water resists and wearing them down. Sam-H can also function decently as an alternate win condition for when water resists are weakened. Aqua cutter boosted by sharpness and rain is low key decently powerful, scarf gives it respectable speed, and it also resists sucker punch.
3) It's my main switch-in for shadow balls and being able to switch-in, outspeed, OHKO, and set up spikes on pult/dengo particularly is often huge early game.

My team certainly has some obvious faults such as a weakness to strong special attackers (especially specs valiant/pult) but I've been able to play around it well enough to go from the 1700s to mid 1900s using this team.

 

[Mega Breloom]

Ceruledge

This mon is way worse after Home but I'm seeing way more than the last months of pre-Home, why? People complains about Treads but this is the mon who doesn't belong to the OU most.

 

[RaichuBestMon]

RH?

Rocky Helmet

Unless Heatran is Specs or Teras, Heatran can never 2HKO Samurott-H, so it is easy prey. If it Teras, I like bulky offence, so I revenge it with something else.

Slowking-G needs Focus Blast to 2HKO Samurott-H, and Focus Blast is quite unpopular on it (so are Nasty Plot sets, I guess).

Skeledirge cannot 2HKO without Torch Song boosts (hint: load Samu-H into Skeledirge immediately) but has a habit of leaving nasty burns so Skeledirge is the last mon Samu-H forces out.

Samurott-H is prone to mispredicting against Scarf Gholdengo, but it forces out all the others fine. Make It Rain can only 2HKO with Specs, although Samurott-H actually might not survive two switch-ins into Scarf Make It Rain.

Kingambit loves Teraing against Samurott-H, but it needs Swords Dance, Black Glasses or Tera Dark, and 5 KOed allies to even think about OHKOing Samu-H with Sucker Punch. Low Kick needs 4 fainted allies or Swords Dance to OHKO Samu-H on the switch, although Low Kick + Sucker Punch honestly actually is good enough at baseline.

The Samurott-H speed tie is always a risky one.

The main strategy against Ursaluna is to hope Trick Room is down, dent Ursaluna as mightily as possible (this includes with Samurott-H, who at least has priority), watch Ursaluna KO it, and then revenge with something else that hopefully cleans.

The main strategy against Garganacl is to force it to Tera and/or dent it as mightily as possible. The worst-case scenario is that I get up some Spikes and force a Body Press or Recover.

You can't switch anything completely safely into Hoopa-U, but at least Sucker Punch deals over half, and Mystic Water Razor Shell is an almost guaranteed OHKO.

Ceruledge Shadow Sneak is a joke against Samurott-H, and they need Focus Sash or Tera to survive Ceaseless Edge. Sucker Punch them if they survive and pray it never occurs to them to Close Combat immediately (the Weak Armor builds are better against Samu-H; the Flash Fire Bulk Up ones perform much worse and cannot even break Skeledirge).

0 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 150-177 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 96-113 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage
(And 0 Spa.Att. invest Heatrans aren't that common anyways, this is the best case scenario)
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 141-167 (43.9 - 52%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO

Samurott SUCKS! It just gets thrown once on the field and dies.
Please stop using him and leave Hatterena and balance teams alone!!!

 

[Exotic64]

This mon is way worse after Home but I'm seeing way more than the last months of pre-Home, why? People complains about Treads but this is the mon who doesn't belong to the OU most.

only fairy resist on hyper offense that does something, people only started using it mostly after pineco posted his reqs team, personally I disagree with his choice of ceru because I think volc is much better anyways, but ceruledge is very niche and if you aren't ready for it it will cause gaping holes in your team

also regarding why use samurott-h - its the same thing as glimmora. most people run it on HO as a suicide hazard setter to apply pressure and remove sashes and pretty much force the tusk switchin or take spikes damage every time (which stacks up). ceaseless edge being a good damaging move and having spikes as a side effect is very good
if they have cinderace + tusk or opponent is running 6 boots stall then the samurot can still be used as a good attacker; water/dark is a very good typing offensively and will shred through a lot of common OU staples since samurott has decent speed and a very good attack, alongside sucker/jet for priority

Samurott SUCKS! It just gets thrown once on the field and dies.
Please stop using him and leave Hatterena and balance teams alone!!!

no, its most likely a top 10 mon rn in OU in terms of usefulness and utility and damage - sam-h dengo hazard stack is VERY oppressive and hard to deal with especially if piloted by a very good player
and the point of it is to get some hazards up, its not supposed to be a wallbreaker lol

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1885238877-mp6t3jla2jksn4mlx7v4l1ami6hghvwpw
this was a 2100 replay, im clicking stealth rock on glimmora in front of a specs pult's face, it makes it a 5v6 for me but the rocks providing very good chip and breaking potential sashes, as well as doing 25 to enam is very huge. sometimes its worth the tradeoff

 

[Mega Breloom]

only fairy resist on hyper offense that does something, people only started using it mostly after pineco posted his reqs team, personally I disagree with his choice of ceru because I think volc is much better anyways, but ceruledge is very niche and if you aren't ready for it it will cause gaping holes in your team

also regarding why use samurott-h - its the same thing as glimmora. most people run it on HO as a suicide hazard setter to apply pressure and remove sashes and pretty much force the tusk switchin or take spikes damage every time (which stacks up). ceaseless edge being a good damaging move and having spikes as a side effect is very good
if they have cinderace + tusk or opponent is running 6 boots stall then the samurot can still be used as a good attacker; water/dark is a very good typing offensively and will shred through a lot of common OU staples since samurott has decent speed and a very good attack, alongside sucker/jet for priority

Valiant and Enamorus run coverage for Gholdengo (the best resist for HO hazards teams) and Azu also destroys this thing. Really don't see the point of keeping this mon on the tier.

 

[Fenghuang]

I admit that I don't understand why power creep is a problem.

 

[Moyashi]

Rocky Helmet


0 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 150-177 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 96-113 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage
(And 0 Spa.Att. invest Heatrans aren't that common anyways, this is the best case scenario)
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 141-167 (43.9 - 52%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO

Samurott SUCKS! It just gets thrown once on the field and dies.
Please stop using him and leave Hatterena and balance teams alone!!!

Man you were bitching about it less than a page ago. (Also lol Glowking is scared to death of Hamu)

View attachment 526612View attachment 526613
These two are completly wreaking my shit (and hazard/moon blast spam+coverage in general).
How can I deal with them while using a balance team with Landorus please?

At least try to be consistent. Hamurott generates high pressure thanks to unblockable spikes, in a meta with very limited anti hazard options. The typing is very flexible too giving it ways of getting in and being useful. Even just one layer of spikes+rocks is tough to deal with.