Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[Magcargo]

I have no idea what I’m doing,

made a bit of a meme set trailblaze bulk up decidueye.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1876836706

Only won because of a free turn on Heatran, but this is inspiring me to find a set for it.

anybody figured out how to use decidueye yet?

Kid: Mom, can we have Great Tusk?
Mom: WDYM, we have Great Tusk at HOME!
Great Tusk at Home:

I like this Pokemon design wise and conceptually, but it is difficult to see myself in a position where I'd use it over Tusk (a similar issue I felt with Quaquavel). Its statline isn't as optimized and it has 4MSS in the builder (You want Roost, Defog, Knock Off, Triple Arrows, Grass STAB, Defog, etc.). That Trailblaze set is pretty cool, but Tusk can do that while spinning away hazards. That being said, the battle you showed did show one of Decidueye-H's main positives, which is that it has Scrappy & can't be slowed down by Lando-T, and with Lando-T losing Toxic, that's an MU strictly in its favor barring some Tera Blast shenanigans.

All that said, Hisui-Decidueye is still one of my favorite new starters, so I'll be the first to steal any team featuring it lol.

 

[Ctann]

It feels like..

Every single team on ladder is some variant of screens HO right now, with varying Tera types for the mag or the volc or the whatever the f to win.

not fun to play against

predictable, but there’s a finite number of Pokémon you can use and remain viable against these teams

this is miserable haha. Boring, repetitive and you need 4 on your team just to check these teams. Worse than the eleki meta, eleki meta was fun

magearna is single handidly making it the most miserable due to the variants having different ways to squeeze out free turns. You need hazards + >100 spe taunt with a ghost check for the fast sneasler/zam to completely block these teams

can’t even run a decidueye up in this meta .. :(

 

[Delibird Heart]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1876878993-fs0id3sa9hdnvvtaofdzl0vf21wy8jlpw

Another day, another Torn-T destruction... The more time passes and the more I feel like y'all are losing to screens just because you're not playing agaisnt it correctly/bringing the right answers tbh. So far every screens game ive been in has happened like this.

 

[Dragapult]

So as for dire claw. This is a move that is potentially uncompetitive and locked on just 1 mon, I can understand why banning dire claw might make sense. But let me try to use an example to explain where I stand.

What if heatran was the only pokemon that could learn double team? I believe there would need to be a high burden of proof showing that double team is very clearly the only reason why heatran is getting out of control, and that heatran would be fine without it. Only then would I be comfortable in banning double team, rather than banning heatran. And it has to truly be unhealthy to the tier, not just a mild annoyance like t-wave.

So has sneasler with dire claw reached this high burden? Is a frail mon like that really getting a lot of opportunities to spam a poison type attack, which has a poor offensive typing to begin with and only 80 base power? I think we need to see how this plays out in practice more to make sure. Breaking tiering philosophy should only be done with a lot of evidence and certainty.

Granted I know this was a rhetorical/hypothetical but I’m out here watching gameplay (and not just in OU) of people shamelessly fishing for paras against things Sneasler would not be attempting to hit if it were Poison Jab. I don’t know whether or not that qualifies Sneasler as broken (and I am not attempting the make the case either way) but it is certainly circumstantial evidence that Dire Claw is degenerate.

 

[WildWave]

I mean 1v1ing a Pokémon that normally checks it with a ton of boosts up isn't really that notable. That stored power set has like 10x the checks Espathra had since Espathra didn't need to run double dance and could run things like substitute or a 3rd coverage move instead. Hell, if we're banning Pokémon for having many radically different potent sets then I guess we can add Iron Valiant to the radar. If we're banning Pokémon for being versatile and performing a variety of roles very well and being on almost every team for that reason, hell, ban Tusk. I'm really starting to come around to a position of "Magearna is one of the best Pokémon in the tier and should be considered on any serious team" but there's so much that can check it between Heatran, Goodra-H, Skeledirge, Clodsire, Zam-C, Ursaluna... I think we're getting closer to a Walking awake situation here, where something looks crazy initially but it turns out there are actually several ways around it. I'd even argue pre-Home Kingambit took less effort, less effort, and less turns to setup a game-ending sweep.

and for what it's worth with no Light Clay the set is a complete non-issue

+6 252 Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. +6 248 HP / 8+ Def Magearna: 111-132 (30.5 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is an example of Magearna’s bulk. It’s not even fully invested.

C&C:
: SG Tera Blast (Ground)
: Tricked
: Tricked
:
: CM+ID SP Set
:

As I stated before, Magearna can run a variety of sets thanks to its movepool. I haven't even mentioned that it gets Spikes to help wear down it's C&C. To say that "we're getting close to a Walking Wake situation here" is premature and so not the case giving the Pokémon in hand. Speaking on Great Tusk and Iron Valiant, both mons don't have the bulk nor the reliable recovery Magearna has. Magearna is bulky from both standpoints from the special and physical side, and has access to Draining Kiss and Pain Split for its longevity. Hopefully a decision is made soon and this monster finds itself in Ubers where it belongs.

 

[Flamestorm7]

Forgive me if this is a stupid question. But why has Dire Claw caused so much more upheaval when Tri Attack which has been implemented since Gen 1 which has similar effect, arguably stronger with burn and freeze being inherently stronger than normal poison and sleep. Is it the proc chance? Or is it because of poison STAB having some better use cases than normal? I feel like the answers to these questions would give a better idea of the problem being Dire Claw or it being Dire Claw on Sneasler.

 

[WildWave]

Forgive me if this is a stupid question. But why has Dire Claw caused so much more upheaval when Tri Attack which has been implemented since Gen 1 which has similar effect, arguably stronger with burn and freeze being inherently stronger than normal poison and sleep. Is it the proc chance? Or is it because of poison STAB having some better use cases than normal? I feel like the answers to these questions would give a better idea of the problem being Dire Claw or it being Dire Claw on Sneasler.

Dire Claw has a 50% chance to status rather than the 20% you get from Tri Attack. Unfortunately, they can’t ban the move since Sneasler is the only Pokémon that gets it which is why it’s on the radar.

 

[Finchinator]

I love how just one week ago big council members like Finch were telling me how wrong I was about Chien Pao being banned in OU. Now look who’s the very clevery guyView attachment 522267

Literally nobody told you this. Stop spreading misinformation.

I made it explicitly clear multiple times over why I voted to unban Pao: it was only banned via close suspect vote and never had prior support to quickban, so giving it another chance with more things in the tier to check it made sense — not doing so would be unfair. I even said I think it will probably still be broken.

 

[Wesley23675]

how to make hisui decidueye work?

 

[Aikotoba]

how to make hisui decidueye work?

he is a great defogger with a cool defensive profile for it

 

[Ctann]

I didn’t mind defog but the stats are far too weak, and Defog is such a waste of a move slot in this meta game, since HO is prominent, hazard spam is so easy and Samurott has taunt / doesn’t mind suiciding if it has some layers => this means no progress

so far I liked a HDB set that switches into ceaseless edge and then spams triple arrows / knock of to make progress. It also gets taunt to deny recovery, tho the typing means sometimes you can’t risk staying in on the zapdos/dirge/etc, unless you’re using Tera.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

how to make hisui decidueye work?

Be like Sirfetch'd. Scrappy Close Combat shit

 

[WildWave]

how to make hisui decidueye work?

Convince the OU Council to ban Corviknight. It’s your only hope! :)

 

[Up darma nitan]

Regarding the Dire Claw situation, it's just better to ban all sleep inducing moves in general. This includes Spore, Sleep Powder, Hypnosis. Nobody likes getting their mon put to sleep anyway. I'd rather deal with para than sleep.

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

Regarding the Dire Claw situation, it's just better to ban all sleep inducing moves in general. This includes Spore, Sleep Powder, Hypnosis. Nobody likes getting their mon put to sleep anyway. I'd rather deal with para than sleep.

Sleep clause is a thing ;)

 

[Up darma nitan]

Sleep clause is a thing ;)

Wish they'd do it like in Gen 5 where they've banned sleep inducing moves, Breloom still managed to be a top tier threat despite not using Spore.

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

Wish they'd do it like in Gen 5 where they've banned sleep inducing moves

The reason they did it in gen 5 is that the sleep mechanics were fucked up. You had to burn all sleep turns in a single sitting else your sleep counter will reset.

 

[Up darma nitan]

The reason they did it in gen 5 is that the sleep mechanics were fucked up. You had to burn all sleep turns in a single sitting else your sleep counter will reset.

Even when they nerfed the sleep mechanic after gen 5, it is still a pain to deal with. Most of the complaints regarding dire claw pertains to sleep. Putting a potential win con out of commission and even become a setup fodder really sucks.

 

[I am New]

Convince the OU Council to ban Corviknight. It’s your only hope! :)

252+ Atk Choice Band Decidueye-Hisui Triple Arrows vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 153-180 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery flinch and defense drop away from a ko

 

[carbonlifeform]

Folks calling for changes to Sleep Clause because Dire Claw is irreconcilable with cart in a supposedly new way obviously never played in a tier where Effect Spore was prominent or viable.

Obviously Dire Claw is a different beast (higher proc chance; Effect Spore can be avoided by not using contact moves, while Dire Claw fishing is at the discretion of the user), but the situation of Sleep Clause stepping in to block a sleep-inducing interaction that couldn't be avoided via agreement on cart is far from new. Also, Relic Song apparently, as others have noted.

In other news, having surprising luck with Iron Hands amid all the new drops, especially SD Shuca with Tera electric. Will post more later, but it loves Enamorus as an offensive partner and takes solid advantage of the new Hisuian hazard setters. Lando honestly helps the 4MSS by making Ice Punch mandatory (thus my preference for SD to smack things with STABs that I would have otherwise used SE coverage on Pre-Home). Modest Agility Iron Moth also putting in hella work for me.

 

[SnackWasTaken]

Literally nobody told you this. Stop spreading misinformation.

I made it explicitly clear multiple times over why I voted to unban Pao: it was only banned via close suspect vote and never had prior support to quickban, so giving it another chance with more things in the tier to check it made sense — not doing so would be unfair. I even said I think it will probably still be broken.

 

[carbonlifeform]

View attachment 522433

You're moving goalposts. Saying it's a clear choice to reintroduce isn't saying it won't be as broken as before. It's saying it's worth taking the risk to give the player base a chance to try it out and see if it's still oppressive in a season where the council intends to be active with tiering decisions.

 

[KrazyKoopa95]

This might be a hot take, but can we not quick ban Magearna & try to adapt? I hate Magearna will every fiber of my body, but I have been using this Skeldirge set:

this set literally walls every Magearna set except maybe choice + trick sets. I feel like we can find more & more counters to Mag if we search for it. I still think Magearna is broken & should be suspect tested eventually, but can we not quick ban it for now?

 

[G-Luke]

Skipping past the very pointless Dire Claw discussion because it's very clear how OU council has decided to move with it.

Let's talk about the precedent changing thing that IS on the table - Light Clay.

Yes I am familiar with previous gens banning the item in lower tiers. But in OU context, it has always been acknowledged that OU generally has enough tools lower tiers lack to match up versus Hyper Offense. But what has changed now? What makes Screens HO so different in Post Home Gen 9 that we are clamouring to suspect test it? It's Tera. I'm not beating around the bush. It's a combination of extremely potent set up sweepers and the ability to swap out counterplay which makes the usually tolerable effect of Light Clay unbearable. Putting Tera aside for the time being. Let's say we ban Magearna and Chien Pao, arguably the two most oppressive Pokemon on builder (one enables HO to a ridiculous degree, the other promotes HO spam as the most efficient way to deal with it) how would we feel about a Light Clay ban then? Personally, while screens would still be annoying, I think if those two are gone, Light Clay would not feel as oppressive. When you count in the demon Substitute Body Press Zamazenta set, which is cropping up all over HO as well, and I truly believe that Screens would readjust itself to be a potent, but somewhat manageable presence in our tier. So while I appreciate the OU leaders for stepping outside of the box for looking at an item, I believe in this case, Light Clay is most definitely not the root cause. Let's ban the Terrible Two, then neuter the dog later on, and then we look at if Screens is still an oppressive force in the metagame. In my opinion at least, base Zamawould be MANAGEABLE without Screens, but still not necessarily healthy. Mage doesn't need screens to be broken and Chien Pao barely abuses it.

What are your thoughts on Light Clay? Do you support a major ban right out of the gate to preserve a lot of set up sweepers, or do you think irrespective of Screens, enough Pokémon need to go that probably would make Screens be later on a non issue? Also, as we always know to be the real root cause of most issues we have with this tier, how do you feel about Terastilization's role in how potent Light Clay has become as of late, and was this something you saw coming after the Tera suspect results?

 

[AM]

This might be a hot take, but can we not quick ban Magearna & try to adapt? I hate Magearna will every fiber of my body, but I have been using this Skeldirge set:

View attachment 522444

this set literally walls every Magearna set except maybe choice + trick sets. I feel like we can find more & more counters to Mag if we search for it. I still think Magearna is broken & should be suspect tested eventually, but can we not quick ban it for now?

This mon shits on screens single handedly but tbh I dont want to be running Skeledirge on every team just to not lose to screens + friends. Outside of dumping on these screen offense teams I think this mon kind of shit into everything else as well.