This way of thinking from GF part is thanks to megas success, they looked at the reactions people had for the megas and decided to keep the core idea of them "giving a new form to old Pokémon and make them better (or at least try) in competitive" it is interesting because in the end of the day it causes a crazy powercreep because megas at the very less were more balanced thanks to not having items, but now they keep expanding the concept in other ways like the paradox forms which in some cases have bigger stats boost than a mega and you add the the possibility to hold an item then the powercreep becames too much (just look at Flutter Mane or Blunde).
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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the massive powercreep is also because they want every mon to have some sort of role in vgc now. even the early-game garbomons are somewhat usable. before approximately gen 7 they didn't really pay much attention to competitive balance, but now every pokemon is contractually obligated to have some sort of wacky zany new gimmick so vgc doesn't turn into "the same 6 mons over and over simulator". and you know what? that's fine by me
If under this lens, this is ignoring the fact that conceptually the Megas were supposed to be Superforms, not just buffs on the existing Pokemon as a separate entity in the wild. Paradox forms have the excuse of being distinct mons that generally have different playstyles (so I file them under the Regionals I liked like Ninetales if anything) and are only "implied" to be related to the original. Regionals aren't framed as "the same thing but better" which tends to be what I'm annoyed by some turning into.
you can think of it like relaunching a pokemon tbh, I think you see it backwards
to TPC, samurott hisui is, in fact, a direct replacement for original samurott in 2022
it is replacing the original, the 2.0
They do not want to touch the old Samurott, because the point of making starters new forms is to give them new life with new designs and rebrand the Pokemon, competitively and design wise. Samurott-Hisui is, from 2022 onward, the "real" Samurott, while the original is going to be just there
I feel like people here see modern Pokemon power creep as a neutral force.
No, it's not! It's on purpose! What are you talking about? They are actively trying to make the new designs more competitively viable. Iron Valiant is supposed to destructively outclass Gardevoir and Gallade enough for it to be used in competitive, and have merch sold by fans seeing it more and more. Great Tusk is meant to be the New Donphan, the Cooler Donphan, it is outclassing Donphan at everything Donphan does.
Why do you think there has been one Protean Pokemon for 3/4 generations of Pokemon in which TPC has had a more direct eye on competitive (since Gen 6)
Greninja
Cinderace
Meowscarada
Look at this image from before Gen 9 was even announced
Greninja, Charizard, Pikachu, Cinderace. Guess what is absolutely going to be added to Pokemon Unite in the next few months? Meowscarada, and then there will be a prominent one in the anime, it will have a ton of merchandise. It is supposed to be the new cool Protean starter, another iteration.
And to help make sure this happens, they happened to give it exactly 1 single Speed stat point above Greninja, so in any matchup between the two half Dark-Type Protean users, the new iteration will win out, with a super-effective Grass-Type STAB (Flower Trick, which is a clone of one of the most powerful moves in Pokemon history, Wicked Blow) will come out before Greninja can even shift its type.
Competitive is now another venue for Pokemon to increase its profits and get more new Pokemon and try to increase the cast of profitable Pokemon via merchandise.
Look at Smogon custom avatars. How many of them are using a trainer OC alongside a competitively viable Pokemon? That is not by coincidence, they want new appealing Pokemon to succeed so you feel a deeper bond with them. I used to fucking hate Ferrothorn, but after seeing that motherfucker in Smogon for years, I cannot find it ugly anymore, it is just normalized now. And now they want this but for Pokemon they actually think are appealing.
New forms, new evolutions, paradoxes, Megas, Regionals, cross evolutions;
they all serve the same purpose, which is to rebrand a design for a new audience and attempt to capture more appeal. And to help with this, they use competitive viability to push Pokemon into more eyes.
Alolan-Ninetales is not just an alternate Ninetales, it is new and improved Ninetales, with design sensibilities for a new audience. It works, it's literally my third favorite Pokemon of all-time.
yeah, they should have a regional form that's just a direct downgrade from the original, just for fun
OH WAIT
Decidueye is an example of regional forms done right imo. The typings are damn well opposites (and now I can definitely say that Deci is based off an extint sepcies lol), they have seperate signature moves, they even have near opposing themes. One does not feel like a direct upgrade.
As for Nine, I feel similarly. Sure, Alolan is leagues better, but they are total opposites besides. One sets sun, the other sets snow. Like a whole yin yang thing going on. Just so happens that Yang's tools are better appreciated than Yin's.
As for Nine, I feel similarly. Sure, Alolan is leagues better, but they are total opposites besides. One sets sun, the other sets snow. Like a whole yin yang thing going on. Just so happens that Yang's tools are better appreciated than Yin's.
I wonder how many Avalugg plushies we're gonna seeyeah, they should have a regional form that's just a direct downgrade from the original, just for fun
I know I already talked about it a lot but I'm gonna use this excuse to talk more;
Mega Pokemon lacked utility that TPC wants for this goal of competitiveness which is only one per team. They can't bank on having an entire team of new designs to sell, unlike Regionals and Paradoxes, which you basically can. You can have a team of Iron Valiant, Great Tusk, Alolan-Ninetales, Alolan-Muk, and literally be probably playable, and much mucnh better than Gardevoir/Gallade, Donphan, Kanto-Ninetales and Kanto-Muk.
Meanwhile with Megas it ended up being "the one cool guy + basic bitches"
Mega Design + Lando T Heatran Ferrothorn ugly fucks.
Of course, that still mostly went through until Gen 9. Which is why Gen 9 is doing Paradoxes and with new designs being much more aggressive, that is why its such a step up.
if your team has 4 mons and one of them isn't even in sv, you're probably not gonna have too great of a time in the competitive scene
They aren't framed like that but that is their intention, because again, that is why they keep going in that direction. They also tried to go for the "super form" rute with Gigantamax but those weren't as popular as they intended them to be so they already gave up on that and decided to go for the "itemless megas" route with regional forms and paradox.
I can ensure you, if megas didn't exist probably the regional forms wouldn't have been introduced in gen 7 and if Gigantamax were more popular there would be especial tera forms in gen 9.
yeah no shit I'm talking about the viability of new Pokemon vs old ones
ninetales is coming back in the DLC and obviously there would be two different Pokemon, my point is you can make a team with basically only new forms of old Pokemon and have it be viable/good
Example:
great tusk (donphan)
iron valiant (gardevoir / gallade)
kingambit (bisharp evo)
walking wake (suicune)
samurott hisui (samurott form)
that is 5 pokemon you can throw on a team and it will be at least ok, you pick your 6th probably would not fit, this would literally just work and it is almost all recycled old designs
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honestly, even with the hail buff ninetales might outshine alolan ninetales this gen because of how many sun abusers there are these days. all depends on whether arctozolt comes back and how good cetitan actually is with proper hail support, both of which are unknown factors right now
ok but even then, as I've edited that message you can surely see what I mean, right
you can make an entire 5 man squad to throw into any builder of just new forms of old designs, and it will be viable
yeah, i do see your point and i agree that regional forms are generally more optimized for competitive environments (with a couple exceptions like, well,
). what i disagree with is the notion that some people are espousing here where they claim there's some sort of concerted plot to replace old pokemon with new regional variants. i don't think this is true. looking at most of the examples people are putting up—samurott, muk, raichu, the paradox forms—what i'm seeing is just the fact that adding another typing to a single-typed mon or upping the bst by a bunch usually works out pretty well competitivelyAin't nobody saying there's an actual plot to replace. Well, ant might, I'm not to sure, but everyone else has been, once again, togue in cheeck. Dugtrio is proof of that, newer is not better.yeah, i do see your point and i agree that regional forms are generally more optimized for competitive environments (with a couple exceptions like, well,
However, the observation is correct. Adding a type or adjusting (min maxing) BST does wonders for the viability. The other part of that observation? Those were given to new variants. If those changes makes a mon better, then the version that didn't receive those changes are comparatively worse. I just wish that mons like Sam had gotten a new toy. But that new toy is an entirely different mon.
As an aside, if megas still existed I bet Ham would be the mega to Sam.
Not only that but also the movepool is what makes them better, which is also that you can see in the new mons which have a way better movepool than old mons, Enamorus has ground+fairy coverage, Valiant movepool is absurd, Sam-H movepool is way better than the regular and not just for CE.
Can run TR stuff with the new guys too for VGC
Setter
Iron Hands (Hariyama)
Gambit
Ursaluna (Ursaring evo)
??
??
VGC uses Indeedee + Armarouge in trick room because Indeedee is just the best support there and fake out is everywhere and Armarouge is the best abuser considering psychic terrain is almost always up, Amoonguss is another VGC staple which works under trick room very well so you can put another attacker in the last slot.
You joke but I think Avalugg-H is actually slightly better than the original. It’s just not a very good or very dramatic upgrade.yeah, they should have a regional form that's just a direct downgrade from the original, just for fun
tbh you're never going to use Avalugg without Tera anyway, so it's just free Rock STAB
Yeah, this and it gets Stealth Rock and 10 more base attack, plus the choice of running Strong Jaw, in exchange for 10 special defense. Mostly benefits when you factor in Tera. Not that either of them are too good to begin with lol
Though it's not mentioned in the dex entries, Ceaseless Edge only sets Spikes (or had the DoT effect in PLA) because of the splinters that break off of it's seamitars when it's slashed into a foe, which is a feature that Hisuian Samurott has that Unovan Samurott lacks.
It's a bit weird how they don't mention it outside of the move itself and instead relegated it to the website (using the terminology " It is said that wounds from these attacks will not heal for many years " when referring to slashing with the aforementioned seamitars), but regardless, it wouldn't make sense for the Unovan variant to get the move.
i'm mainly speaking from my own personal experience. i've run both of them and i've seen better results with regulugg (although this was before morkal wrote his hisuilugg post so further testing may be needed)
We're reaching levels of cooking not thought possible
Thread is dead, We need another 50 page long tirade about qb's or tera hello? /j
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