Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[MrE]

There is no contradiction here. Knock Off is a good move you can throw out a lot on defensive Pokemon that removes options to break your walls (Choice items, Life Orb, etc.) or an opposing team's HDB or Leftovers.

Having your HDB or Lefties Knocked wasn't the end of the world when a little something called "Defog" existed, and one slot on offense couldn't stop both Rapid Spin and Defog at the same time. And it would be incorrect to act as if Knock Off isn't in the meta- it is, just on Pokemon like Great Tusk and Iron Valiant.

While you can have these on say, Balance and Bulky Offense, for Valiant it's somewhat risky to throw out most of the time (making it not a consistent option), and defensive Great Tusk using it only for Gholdengo to live, and Recover all day long. Joy. Those same Tusks make it much harder to rely on HDB, which when your strategy requires switching for 50+ turns, is a lot more devastating than BO and HO, which tend more to stay in, fuck about, and find out rather than being light on their feet.

Fact being, Knock Off distribution tends more to help offensive teams right now than defensive. On the end of Toxic, it's always been a two-way street, but a lot of the Pokemon that defensive teams are crafted around walling out can rarely find random slots to fill with Toxic. We also had things like Magic Guard Pokemon which meant that your utility would matter more against Offense, and theirs meant less.

Ok so I've been thinking about this post for a lil while and honestly, I don't agree with any part of your post in regards to why stall is bad now and that the arguments about it being down to losing knock, toxic ect aren't a two way street. To start with I'm going to be making comparisons to gen 4 where stall is GOOD to show why most of this post is NOT why stall is currently BAD and how losing endless knock, defog/spin ect isn't what's broken stall. Yes knock is v good for stall but guess what? There was once a time where knock wasn't so common, realistically in gen 4 you have 2 mons you can run on stall that can knock, Gliscor and Clef. In gen 9 options for knock that can work on stall you've got Tusk (SupaGmoney just hit no2 on the ladder with this on stall), Treads, Cyclizar (who all roll compress as hazard removal too, btw, but we'll get to hazards shortly), Wo-Chien and whilst probably not good on stall Tinkaton.

Ok that's a fair point that defog doesn't exist anymore, but hazard removal didn't exist in gen 4 either (outside of Starmie and Cruel, you don't really want to use Forretress as it has no recovery and you end up stacking fire weakness as you want Skarm) and HDB DIDN'T exist either. Not only does this gen have many more options for hazard removal than gen 4 (Tusk, Treads, Cyc, Corv, Talon and if you're going to argue Forre for Gen 4 he's still here gen 9) most stall teams don't even care about hazards because of boots spam and you really should have a dedicated knock absorber on your stall teams you go too every time. You go on further in your post complaining about Gholdengo as if he and hazard stack is the reason why stall isn't all that good anymore when stall has so many more options to deal with hazards between more/better hazard removal and boots than in gen 4.

Stall losing knock/defog/toxic really isn't the reason why stall isn't as good this gen imo, the much bigger reason imo is losing crucial mons and recovery pp, Gliscor (assuming it retains toxic and roost) will be a big boon and hopefully stall gets some other toys back in dlc1 but guess we'll have to see.

EDIT: Also Ursaluna probably needs banning, if Ape is banned because it 'invalidated stall' then wtf is this thing still doing in the tier?

 

[Return to Zero]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but VGC has a total opponent team preview rule that includes Tera and sets right? So having a Tera preview in this meta wouldn't be like adding something like Team Previews to D/P.

If you're talking about open team sheets, then kinda? Both players have to agree to it before the match, which would be different from something enforced like Tera Preview.

 

[Alternator]

Just ban non-STAB Tera. Everything (aside from Chien Pao) that Tera has broken was using non-STAB. The big problem with Tera is the guessing game, so why not just ban non-STAB? The damage boost is just a buff to damage, nothing game-shattering. If people want to keep the generational mechanic, then why not just do this?

This renders an interesting mechanic into "Haha free Adaptability go brrr" and neuters defensive uses, leaving it as a simple boost to offensive teams. It is, quite literally, the worst of all possible options.

 

[Mega Breloom]

If you're talking about open team sheets, then kinda? Both players have to agree to it before the match, which would be different from something enforced like Tera Preview.

In tournaments is enforced, but some details are different depending on the tournament, some request to give all the info but the tera types for example.

 

[Finchinator]

Zamazenta-Hero remains legal in SV OU!

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ss-round-3-voting.3723659/page-5#post-9683118

 

[Pabloaram]

When Tera didn't get nuked into heaven i posted here that people gonna complain bc you CANNOT ban the abuser bc every time 1 more gonna appear. In lower tier most of the ban are Tera abusing mon.
What changes Tera Preview? That stop the permanent 50/50 of tera o not tera? NO. That stop mons beaten supossed checks in late game? NO.
I ask once again to BAN TERA. Changing a thing over it doesnt gonna change nothing and the suspect gonna be wasted time. Is 50/50 like Tera itsel: you BAN it outright or keep it and BAN half the pokedex bc surprise surprise a new broken new abuser gonna appear.
And i think National Dex (i knew that doesn't affect us) is doing right: NO 3rd option... And you know what this is the only way to do it.. Because Tera Preview doesn't gonna work. And them "only 1 can use" gonna appear and also doesn't gonna work...

Half a rant. Half own opinion

 

[Return to Zero]

Zamazenta-Hero remains legal in SV OU!

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ss-round-3-voting.3723659/page-5#post-9683118

I'M HOLDING OUT FOR A HERO TIL THE END OF THE NIIIIIIIIIIGHT

Glad everyone who had time to try for recs mostly realized that the dog wasn't as big a problem as we thought.

 

[Finchinator]

next order of business: community survey

 

[KamenOH]

Did lower tiers even ban anything besides Espathra: UU Hour 1?

 

[awyp]

As expected in my eyes, especially after the last few weeks of people really diving into the ladder, Zama-H wasn't worth banning it provides a nice role when it comes to being a solid physical wall at times as well as the potential to sweeper with it's various sets. A lot of counters for a lot of sets as well as checks in general.

I'm excited for the next community survey. Is there any word / opinion on Quick Claw? @ council

 

[Pabloaram]

Did lower tiers even ban anything besides Espathra: UU Hour 1?

QD Oricorio got banned like 5 times in diferent form bc his move Revelation Dance work the same as Terablast. Oricorio Pom-Pom being ranken in A in UU got banned in NU and RU,, Sensu got banned for NU, Oricorio Normal and Baile got banned for PU

 

[dudebones]

I was just looking over this (WCoP Stats) really useful document of WCoP 2023 stats and I noticed Iron Treads at 0% usage.

I for one really like Booster Speed Treads and I find it to be a really reliable spinner and the +1 speed tier is really nice in many situations!

Thoughts on very low Treads usage in the WCoP? Does this set suffer in tournament because if forced to switch it's a lot less meaningful than something like Tusk?

 

[TCTphantom]

I'm still malding that I Need A Hero was not the suspect song

I feel like with the meta settling down and adapting, Zama settled in pretty nicely. Its either a MU fishy mon that requires a lot of support to make IDBP work or a decent beatstick with banded. I think its nice for the tier to have a fast, bulky fighting type.

If I could hazard a guess of what will be on the community survey, I would guess the following.

• Terastralization: We all know we will have the Tera conversation soon enough. It is clear that the issue of Tera is still a hot topic issue, especially post home. I will not go into too much detail on it here, but I expect it to be on the survey in some way, shape, or form. I think this slate though would be heavily linked to Tera and I would prefer to tackle it first.
• Kingambit: I think this is the most likely radar target to get a look rn. Gambit is insane in the back and the guessing game of what defensive Tera it is going with is super annoying. Without Tera imo its not a massive problem, but Tera Gambit in the back is a brutal wincon that forces you to run Zama and/or Tusk (granted you were looking at Tusk anyway lol)
• Garganacl: This will get less than a 3 and people will still complain about it every week in this thread. Its dumb, its annoying, its reliant on tera, you heard the song and dance. Covert Cloak this, Salt Cure that.
• Sneasler: Acro sets are what push it over the edge imo, and most of those are dropping Dire Claw. Even then, I think its just a solid late game wincon rather than too much of a problem. Dire Claw is dumb though on the choice sets.
• Volcarona Retest: I am not putting the copypasta here lol. I think this will be on the radar but I think we should wait until Tera is reevaluated. You could retest it i guess because MU Moth has its fans, but I would rather focus on Tera first.

 

[MrE]

I was just looking over this (WCoP Stats) really useful document of WCoP 2023 stats and I noticed Iron Treads at 0% usage.

I for one really like Booster Speed Treads and I find it to be a really reliable spinner and the +1 speed tier is really nice in many situations!

Thoughts on very low Treads usage in the WCoP? Does this set suffer in tournament because if forced to switch it's a lot less meaningful than something like Tusk?

It's a shitmon, just let it fall to uu already ffs.

 

[Vengeance417]

Just ban non-STAB Tera. Everything (aside from Chien Pao) that Tera has broken was using non-STAB. The big problem with Tera is the guessing game, so why not just ban non-STAB? The damage boost is just a buff to damage, nothing game-shattering. If people want to keep the generational mechanic, then why not just do this?

The issue with this is there's still a guessing element against dual-typed Pokemon. Is Great Tusk going to Tera Ground or Fighting? Is Gholdengo going to Tera Ghost or Steel? Kingambit would remain stupid because Tera Dark is disgusting on it, especially at max Supreme Overlord.

I wonder if Quick Claw is gonna be mentioned on the upcoming survey given how two days have gone by and people are still crying about it.

Personally, I'd like to see a Tera suspect go down first before any other mons get put up on the chopping block. A lot of the suspect-worthy mons rn have their viability heavily influenced by the mechanic, especially the already-banned Regieleki and Volcarona.

 

[Srn]

I was just looking over this (WCoP Stats) really useful document of WCoP 2023 stats and I noticed Iron Treads at 0% usage.

I for one really like Booster Speed Treads and I find it to be a really reliable spinner and the +1 speed tier is really nice in many situations!

Thoughts on very low Treads usage in the WCoP? Does this set suffer in tournament because if forced to switch it's a lot less meaningful than something like Tusk?

I've used something like this before:
Iron Treads @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Spinner
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock / Knock Off

I find that great tusk is very redundant with zamazenta, so if I want to use a spinner, I enjoy using Iron Treads with Zama. It resists flying and fairy which is much less redundant defensively, and with Ice spinner you can actually threaten zapdos a little (until static inevitably gets you). It also outspeeds lead sandy shocks and kills with earthquake, which is pretty useful in the HO lead MU. Genuinely not a shitmon!
252 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Sandy Shocks: 302-356 (93.4 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

 

[Bice]

Did lower tiers even ban anything besides Espathra: UU Hour 1?

As a UU player, we've only banned Iron Hands and Leaves so far, though that's mostly due to their absurd power levels.

However, the two mons we suspected after that (Sandy Shocks and Scizor) had Terastallization as the primary thing that pushed them towards the edge. The same goes for Wo-Chien (as Tera Ghost basically sits on everything while it punishes other ghosts with Knock Off and Foul Play), though HOME's surprise drop prevented it from getting looked at.

Honestly I agree that Tera needs to go, it's just as unpredictable as Dynamax (if not more so) and basically lets certain Pokemon (like Kingambit in OU and Scizor in UU) pick and choose its counters. I do like ant4456's proposal of a multi-phased suspect test however.

tl;dr tera should've been thrown out the window the moment scizor started beating talonflame

 

[Finchinator]

I'm excited for the next community survey. Is there any word / opinion on Quick Claw? @ council

itll be on the survey prob

 

[Da Pizza Man]

tera preview feels terrible, is like putting team preview in rby or declare the pokemon u will gigantimax

is something not intended in the game, different from sleep clause that feels innatural even if still a lot better than unbanning pokemon at random like council hoping to fix the meta

If I see this stupid argument one more time I'm going to flip.

1: There's a clear difference between mechanically changing the game (Sleep Clause) and implementing something that's essentially just a gentleman's agreement (Tera Preview). You can very easily replicate Tera Preview by just telling your opponent what your Tera types are pre-match, while on the other hand Sleep clause is literally not possible to replicate in game, as their is no way to address when your opponent uses a Sleep move when you already having a sleeping Pokemon.
2: VGC literally already does this. You can't really say it breaks cart rules when it's something the developers of the game are doing in their own format.

There are definitely solid arguments against having Tera Preview, but breaking cart mechanics ain't one of them.

 

[Pabloaram]

2: VGC literally already does this. You can't really say it breaks cart rules when it's something the developers of the game are doing in their own format

them show me all you teams moveset and evs with that bc VGC does that

 

[Excalibuwrath]

them show me all you teams moveset and evs with that bc VGC does that

don't threaten me with a good time

 

[SnackWasTaken]

Finchinator what do you think should happen to Terastallization?

 

[Finchinator]

Finchinator what do you think should happen to Terastallization?

something, probably

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Looked over the WCOP usage stats and, oh god torn usage is low. Torn-T still feels quite solid right now. But if this reflects the current usage stats, oh no UU is in for utter hell until it gets yanked back here.

What do people think of torn-t? Still seems quite good, but underexplored in this current meta, which may be why it hasn't been used in WCOP all that much.

If torn-t ends up uu because of new toy syndrome its gonna definitely get quickbanned instantly down there and frankly it would just feel wrong

 

[SnackWasTaken]

Looked over the WCOP usage stats and, oh god torn usage is low. Torn-T still feels quite solid right now. But if this reflects the current usage stats, oh no UU is in for utter hell until it gets yanked back here.

What do people think of torn-t? Still seems quite good, but underexplored in this current meta, which may be why it hasn't been used in WCOP all that much.

Where do I find the usage stats