Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[Roller K]

The thing is that not everyone uses Garg or Sneasler, and not all Sneaslers use dire claw.

99% of Sneaslers use Dire Claw, 99.99% of Gargs use Salt Cure, and both are common enough on teams that they warrant prep, thus justifying Covert Cloak usage in some cases.

Other common secondary effects like spirit break, mystical fire or para don't matter or not even affect them so is far from being optimal

Very few people use it for the guaranteed secondary effect moves. It's more so for the elimination of rng with other common moves. During the original Chien-Pao suspect test meta, I was running a Covert Cloak Dondozo because it dealt with Salt Cure as well as two common moves from Pao in Crunch (no defense drop) and Icicle Crash (no flinch chance). It can help with other (somewhat) common moves, namely Discharge, Dark Pulse, Zen Headbutt, Iron Head, Razor Shell, Poison Jab, Steam Eruption, and of course Dire Claw.

Also, it doesn't help that convert Gholdengo loses to curse + tera water garg anyway.

Sure, but that set isn't really as prevalent anymore. That set needs Earthquake to beat Gholdengo, and I just don't run into EQ much at all. Gholdengo isn't the only viable user of Covert Cloak either; I would argue any Pokemon that can reliably heal and have the bulk/typing to handle Sneasler & Garg can run it. With Sneasler especially, Covert Cloak can be especially deceptive since it's not obvious whether or not something is holding it (unlike Salt Cure with its guaranteed side effect), so the Sneasler will likely keep fishing for hax only to be disappointed and potentially cause tilt, which I love

 

[Mega Breloom]

99% of Sneaslers use Dire Claw

Nope, sd+acro+close combat+night slash is common, there are a lot of dire claws sure, but people who want to use a no meme set runs the proper unburden set which is way more consistent.

I was running a Covert Cloak Dondozo

The deal with defensive Pokémon running cloak is that they get eaten alive by hazards, post home made hazards way more annoying so a defensive Pokémon without leftovers, boots or renegerator is in an awkward spot since only can check what it needs once or twice (that is why Pao didn't even need tera that much the short time it returned).

Sure, but that set isn't really as prevalent anymore. That set needs Earthquake to beat Gholdengo, and I just don't run into EQ much at all. Gholdengo isn't the only viable user of Covert Cloak either; I would argue any Pokemon that can reliably heal and have the bulk/typing to handle Sneasler & Garg can run it. With Sneasler especially, Covert Cloak can be especially deceptive since it's not obvious whether or not something is holding it (unlike Salt Cure with its guaranteed side effect), so the Sneasler will likely keep fishing for hax only to be disappointed and potentially cause tilt, which I love

The same point, most of the mons don't want to use their itemslot on convert, Gholdengo is running ballon not only because of Tusk but also because of spikes. People who used dire claw only uses it for fun, not because they want to win all the time, otherwise they would just use another thing, for then losing 4 games but winning 1 because of dire claw is good for them.

 

[Magcargo]

With how it works now it even invites for more hax elements by running stuff like crash (miss and flinch chances) over spinner.

With Icicle Crash, the flinch chance is nice, but I mainly ran it because of no contact. Back in early SV, Chien-Pao counterplay was largely limited to wearing it down w/ passive damage via hazards and Rocky Helmet from Pokemon like Corviknight. Icicle Crash's combination of flinch chance and no contact could let it play around this conundrum a bit. Crunch was there for a reliable, hard hitting STAB attack (which also had hax potentional w/ that 20% def drop).

That being said, I was using Ice Spinner on SD sets earlier in the Home meta and it was pretty good lol. Honestly, Chien-Pao is probably more broken now because of all the fliers that got added, which it completely cooked. Rocky Helmet usage is quite a bit lower than it was previously. I'm guessing its due to the hazard epidemic which has gotten much worse lately + Urshifu completely bypassing helmet with Punching Gloves + new toy syndrome leading to stuff like Corv getting less usage.

 

[Mega Breloom]

With Icicle Crash, the flinch chance is nice, but I mainly ran it because of no contact. Back in early SV, Chien-Pao counterplay was largely limited to wearing it down w/ passive damage via hazards and Rocky Helmet from Pokemon like Corviknight. Icicle Crash's combination of flinch chance and no contact could let it play around this conundrum a bit. Crunch was there for a reliable, hard hitting STAB attack (which also had hax potentional w/ that 20% def drop).

That being said, I was using Ice Spinner on SD sets earlier in the Home meta and it was pretty good lol. Honestly, Chien-Pao is probably more broken now because of all the fliers that got added, which it completely cooked. Rocky Helmet usage is quite a bit lower than it was previously. I'm guessing its due to the hazard epidemic which has gotten much worse lately + Urshifu completely bypassing helmet with Punching Gloves + new toy syndrome leading to stuff like Corv getting less usage.

Yes that I was mean to say but rushed my reply because had to leave for a while, people wouldn't use spinner to avoid not only helmet but also static and flame body, so static/flame body has contributed to make players to add more rng to games. Also is true, post Home Pao is even more busted that don't even needs tera most of the time, most of the new defensive mons are weak to its stabs anyway and now I was more optimal to spam ice than dark, Shifu and Pao made most of the physical walls run tera water, now I could swear that most people run at least two tera ghost on their team, with hazards spam + zama it is just the best I guess. that also proves how strong a bulky ghost type is, so please don't even joke with letting Giratina touch OU.

 

[Fenghuang]

Yes that I was mean to say but rushed my reply because had to leave for a while, people wouldn't use spinner to avoid not only helmet but also static and flame body, so static/flame body has contributed to make players to add more rng to games. Also is true, post Home Pao is even more busted that don't even needs tera most of the time, most of the new defensive mons are weak to its stabs anyway and now I was more optimal to spam ice than dark, Shifu and Pao made most of the physical walls run tera water, now I could swear that most people run at least two tera ghost on their team, with hazards spam + zama it is just the best I guess. that also proves how strong a bulky ghost type is, so please don't even joke with letting Giratina touch OU.

My good friend, have you ever heard of the immortal principle "broken checks broken"?

 

[turd2]

anything that reduces counterplay to a specific item & not considered building/play is degenerate

extrapolate from this what you will

...isn't choosing to use a specific item just part of teambuilding?

 

[Schpoonman]

Only if it's an item a Pokemon would naturally want to run. If Leftovers/Boots/what-have-you is superior to Cloak against 99% of all mons but one thing is forcing a suboptimal item that weakens the team overall (without boots, Skeledirge has a significantly harder time acting as an Unaware wall due to its total vulnerability to hazards), there's an argument for the mon/move forcing suboptimal building to be examined.

Lanturn's usage as a Thundurus-I answer in early gen 5 is an example of how the usage of such a suboptimal mon just to beat Thundurus meant it was broken.

 

[Alternator]

Every argument against Covert Cloak can be made against Heavy Duty Boots, often with virtually no changes - Skeledirge can't afford to use Covert Cloak because HDB are too important is somehow proof that Cloak is the problem?

I'm not advocating for a ban of hazards, mind. I'm just saying that complaining about not having room for Covert Cloak because HDB is important isn't a strong claim.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

99% of Sneaslers use Dire Claw,

Dire Claw isn't even mandatory on Sneasler, let alone 99% usage. Plenty of Sneasler sets use U-turn, Gunk Shot, Swords Dance, Acrobatics, Close Combat, Night Slash and Tera Blast. Tera Ground Tera Blast lets it blow past Toxapex. There are a ton of variety in Sneasler sets, unlike Garganacl who only exists to Salt Cure

 

[Mega Breloom]

Every argument against Covert Cloak can be made against Heavy Duty Boots, often with virtually no changes - Skeledirge can't afford to use Covert Cloak because HDB are too important is somehow proof that Cloak is the problem?

I'm not advocating for a ban of hazards, mind. I'm just saying that complaining about not having room for Covert Cloak because HDB is important isn't a strong claim.

The difference is that hazards have a huge distribution and can be used by any team so the match up doesn't matter, against stall, balance or offense either boots or defog/spin will help you, while convert would be used only for salt cure and dire claw.

 

[Rootb]

The difference is that hazards have a huge distribution and can be used by any team so the match up doesn't matter, against stall, balance or offense either boots or defog/spin will help you, while convert would be used only for salt cure and dire claw.

Moves affected by covert cloak also have a huge distribution. In fact, on the average team, I would expect significantly more moves that Cloak will interact with than HDB will. It's just that hazards are so absurdly powerful that you get shredded without wasting your item slot against something that not all teams run, or will even get a chance to set up.

I also don't really think we need a hazard ban, but let's be honest: HDB are really doing some heavy lifting in keeping the game functional.

 

[Mega Breloom]

Moves affected by covert cloak also have a huge distribution. In fact, on the average team, I would expect significantly more moves that Cloak will interact with than HDB will. It's just that hazards are so absurdly powerful that you get shredded without wasting your item slot against something that not all teams run, or will even get a chance to set up.

I also don't really think we need a hazard ban, but let's be honest: HDB are really doing some heavy lifting in keeping the game functional.

The thing is that hazards are consistent, while most of the secondary effects are situational, at the same time, without boots Volcarona and probably Dragonite would be UUBL in this meta with how the hazards spam is getting.

 

[KamenOH]

what if we can have a society where we can consider both zapdos and sneasler to be a broken? wouldn't that be something

Random status is broken is the hot talking point these days? Might as well start asking Jeeves if crits are in a bearish market.

 

[Rootb]

The thing is that hazards are consistent, while most of the secondary effects are situational, at the same time, without boots Volcarona and probably Dragonite would be UUBL in this meta with how the hazards spam is getting.

I mean, Static proc chance is the same as Focus Blast missing, and even the most scientifically-minded among us know that 30% isnt really 30%.

Ultimately, though, I just think HDB is getting in the way of item viability. And that it probably should, given how strong it is against some dubiously powerful options.

 

[Moyashi]

Every argument against Covert Cloak can be made against Heavy Duty Boots, often with virtually no changes - Skeledirge can't afford to use Covert Cloak because HDB are too important is somehow proof that Cloak is the problem?

I'm not advocating for a ban of hazards, mind. I'm just saying that complaining about not having room for Covert Cloak because HDB is important isn't a strong claim.

No they can't. There is a world of difference in using an item to help curb the impact of a mechanic that is guaranteed to show up in every game (hazards) vs using an item to combat a single move on a single Pokemon that while excellent, is not in every game.

HDB also just ease the burden on building with hazard weak mons. They aren't explicitly necessary (see Baxcalibur, CB Pao before its ban, the choice sets of pre ban Chi-Yu, and even sets like AV TornadusT or CB Dragonite). Compare this to Covert Cloak which solely sees usage for a single move on a single mon. Where, if you don't see that mon on your opponent's team you have a borderline dead item slot on that mon.

 

[Schpoonman]

Hazards are almost guaranteed to be a factor in every game. A defensive item like that is only as strong as what it's countering, and while there is still discussion about Boots' and hazards' place in the metagame, the conversation has largely settled. If Covert Cloak had been introduced in a gen where Scald wasn't removed (but perhaps Knock Off still was), I think we'd be less up in arms about it. There's no 50% chance to lose HP or be poisoned upon entry with hazards. The consistency of protection (did Covert Cloak work or if I'd run Lefties would they still have failed to status me?) also contributes to questioning using Cloak, and examining what's pushing us to use it.

 

[Fenghuang]

No they can't. There is a world of difference in using an item to help curb the impact of a mechanic that is guaranteed to show up in every game (hazards) vs using an item to combat a single move on a single Pokemon that while excellent, is not in every game.

HDB also just ease the burden on building with hazard weak mons. They aren't explicitly necessary (see Baxcalibur, CB Pao before its ban, the choice sets of pre ban Chi-Yu, and even sets like AV TornadusT or CB Dragonite). Compare this to Covert Cloak which solely sees usage for a single move on a single mon. Where, if you don't see that mon on your opponent's team you have a borderline dead item slot on that mon.

Whereas CC is still useful even if your opponent isn't packing garg (discharge, steam eruption, flinching, defense drops, etc) boots literally do nothing if the opponent doesn't use hazards. The only difference is that hazards are more common than strong secondary effects. It feels weird to say that strong secondary effects are broken unless there are a lot of them, in which case preparing for them is "reasonable".

 

[SnackWasTaken]

What’s the current consensus on Amoonguss? It’s been an ou mainstay since its debut, and I haven’t really seen it at all in standard play. Will the imposter also end up ejected into the UU tier?

 

[Fenghuang]

What’s the current consensus on Amoonguss? It’s been an ou mainstay since its debut, and I haven’t really seen it at all in standard play. Will the imposter also end up ejected into the UU tier?

Amoongus is great, and definitely will end up at least UUBL. But I think it's plenty strong enough to stay in OU.

 

[Avira]

Amoonguss was never UUBL in previous generations of Smogon tiers. It has been perfectly balanced in UU, and nothing has changed for it to suddenly overwhelm UU if it were to drop to that tier. Its bulk is nowhere near overwhelming for UU, and Spore isn't so bad as to make it unwinnable for the player on the receiving end of it.

 

[dudebones]

What’s the current consensus on Amoonguss? It’s been an ou mainstay since its debut, and I haven’t really seen it at all in standard play. Will the imposter also end up ejected into the UU tier?

One of the best Valiant answers barring the very rare Zen Headbutt/Psyshock sets.
Also Spore OP
Also Foul Play really good with helmet to kill set up Dragonite

Amoongus is lit

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

What’s the current consensus on Amoonguss? It’s been an ou mainstay since its debut, and I haven’t really seen it at all in standard play. Will the imposter also end up ejected into the UU tier?

regen + spore = ou forever

 

[Avira]

regen + spore = ou forever

It'll drop to UU as soon as the Tapus return when Misty Terrain and Electric Terrain make Spore a match-up fish. Amoonguss dropped to UU in the gens that had the Tapus.

 

[awyp]

Amoongus is great, and definitely will end up at least UUBL. But I think it's plenty strong enough to stay in OU.

Why would you say that? I see it enough on the ladder and it provides a lot to the tier itself as something that has spore / regen and can abuse Rocky Helmet. I really don't see it ever leaving the tier until another DLC maybe.

 

[Fenghuang]

Why would you say that? I see it enough on the ladder and it provides a lot to the tier itself as something that has spore / regen and can abuse Rocky Helmet. I really don't see it ever leaving the tier until another DLC maybe.

I agree. I think that the reign of grass snail in UU is proof that they're not ready for among us