Announcement SV National Dex Suspect 6: Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger

Status
Not open for further replies.

peap

asleep
is a Tutoris a Tiering Contributor
RBTT Champion
1690593707028.png

:sm/dragapult:




The National Dex OU Council has decided Dragapult will be the sixth suspect of Generation 9.



Dragapult hardly needs introduction as one of National Dex's foremost offensive threats. In the most recent tiering survey, players ranked Dragapult a 3.18 out of 5 in terms of taking tiering action, while Kingambit earned a 3.68 out of 5 — and was ultimately suspected and banned. Dragapult directly benefits from the absence of Kingambit, who possessed bulk, power, a typing that resisted both of Dragapult's STABs, and Pursuit to make Dragapult a much riskier selection for teams. With its most common and effective check banned, Dragapult has swiftly risen back to the top of the metagame.

The Galarian pseudo-legendary is an agile user of several viable sets. Dragapult's unparalleled speed tier, wide Special movepool, and access to U-turn make it a neat user of Choice Specs, often threatening out the opponent and generating momentum, while remaining a potent late-game cleaner. More uncommon status sets with Heavy-Duty Boots can reliably spread paralysis or burns through the opponents side, which enable Dragapult to do serious damage with Hex or ease a path for teammates. Dragapult also commonly runs Infiltrator to ignore the effects of Light Screen, Reflect, Aurora Veil, and Substitute, giving it the jump against opposing offense teams which find it hard or costly to revenge kill.

It is on the physical side, however, where Dragapult has pushed boundaries as a Dragon Dance sweeper. Dragapult is far from a glass cannon, and its typing is highly favorable to setup - Dragon and Ghost combine for a total of 6 resistances and 2 immunities - to reliably use Substitute and Dragon Dance on passive Pokémon such as Toxapex and Garganacl. Moreover, outside of rare type combinations such as Kingambit's, Dragon and Ghost are nigh-unresisted with checks to physical-type Dragapult being limited to a small pool of physically bulky Fairy-types, a healthy Mega Tyranitar or Mega Scizor, and Unaware users such as Dondozo. Pokémon faster than a +1 Speed Dragapult are almost fictional out of rare weather abusers, forcing Dragapult's opponents to take damage from Dragapult in order to revenge it. Most uniquely, in National Dex, Dragapult can hold Ghostium Z and use a one-time 175 base power STAB move to punch through would-be checks like Tapu Fini and bulky Steel-types. Physical Terastallizations are viable as well, either for a consistent STAB Tera Ghost or less-explored niche picks like Fighting for Mega Tyranitar.

One could argue that defensive Terastallization users offer widely viable checks to Dragapult. Tera Fairy Garganacl, for example, resists both of Dragapult's STABs and eventually outdamages it with Salt Cure. Tera Fairy on other users can steal back momentum from Dragon Darts, but careful play and predictions are required to avoid irreparable damage from Never-Ending Nightmare. The fourth moveslot, outside of Dragon Dance, Dragon Darts, and Phantom Force, is flexible if not opting for Substitute, helping Dragapult add some finishing touches via Will-O-Wisp, another attack, or even Curse.

However, Dragapult can be exploited by both extremely offensive and defensive archetypes. Stealth Rock and hazards go a long way to limiting Dragapult's setup opportunities due to a lack of recovery. A combination of physically-defensive mons involving a Fairy- or Steel-type can play around its Z-move nuke and limit damage, or Dondozo, a staple on stall, can 1v1 it. Checks to Dragapult's Specs sets are more common, like Ting-Lu or a specially-defensive Regenerator mon available to scout, although both can be taken advantage of by U-turn. Offensive and splashable picks like Choice Scarf Tapu Lele or Booster Energy Iron Valiant can deny Dragapult even the chance to wallbreak. Priority users such as Mega Lopunny with Fake Out, Mega Scizor with Bullet Punch, as well as Baxcalibur and Weavile can take down a chipped Dragapult as well.

In totality, Dragapult's special and physical offense sets offer high reward and low risk against the majority of the metagame. The lack of reliable revengers makes its Dragon Dance set particularly potent, and places a notable constraint on teambuilding and play.



1693526204340.png


  • Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
  • The table for this can be found below:
GXEminimum games
8050
80.249
80.448
80.647
80.846
8145
81.244
81.443
81.642
81.841
8240
82.239
82.438
82.637
82.836
8335
83.234
83.433
83.632
83.831
8430
  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be NXDP. For example, I might signup with the ladder account NXDP Bean.
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular National Dex OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
  • The suspect being tested, Dragapult, will be allowed on the ladder.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
  • The suspect test will go on for roughly two weeks, lasting until September 14th at 11:59 pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. You are not allowed to post about other potential suspects or bans. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:



  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects;
  • No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Dragapult vs other potential suspects;
  • You are required to make respectful posts;
  • You are required to read this thread before posting.
  • Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
  • Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
    • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
    • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
    • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have an informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
    • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
    • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. Please PM Kyo, Jho, R8 or Kaede if you have any questions regarding this, and any broader questions about this test. I also tag Kris and Marty to inform them of this suspect as well.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you!
 
Last edited:
I'll start us off by saying I think Dragapult should be banned from the tier because of its myriad of strong options which are very difficult to keep in check.

The ban of Kingambit was very kind to Dragapult. While Kingambit wasn't a perfect check to every Dragapult set (Specs Tera Dragon, DD Tera Fighting and Sub Will-O-Wisp could all give it trouble to some extent), the fact it was pigeonholed into these sets did mean it was more predictable and easier to check. Kingambit was also an excellent revenge killer against Pult, meaning its ability to sweep entire teams was pretty limited. Now with Kingambit gone Dragapult is more free to run arguably its most threatening set, DD Ghostium Z. Due to its unique typing Dragapult is able to set up on a whole host of different Pokemon and its incredible speed means basically every scarfer fails to outspeed it at +1. That typing also helps it offensively as very few Pokemon are able to resist its STAB combination. Its power should also not be understated. While 120 base attack isn't incredible by Natdex standards, its ability to effectively wield an Adamant nature and the 1-time use of a 175 base power Never-Ending Nightmare means all but the most dedicated physical checks won't be able to stand up to it. However, those who are exclusively expecting DD are in for a hard awakening as they realize that specs is still as potent as ever, being more free to spam its STAB moves with fewer Pursuits to worry about.

Defensive counterplay to Dragapult is pretty limited. Pokemon like Ting-Lu, Bisharp and Mega-Tyranitar can handle most sets but need to be weary to not fall into Draco Meteor or +1 Dragon Darts range. There are a few Pokemon can handle Dragapult long term such as Garganacl, who has to waste its tera to not crumble to repeated Dragon moves or Mega Audino, who is terrible against anything not named Dragapult. Set specific checks do exist, such as Dondozo or Chansey but those are quite niche and only the most dedicated stall teams can afford to stack them. Your other option is to out-offense Dragapult. This can be quite difficult due to its incredible speed but most scarfers can handle it provided it has not boosted its speed. If it has set up a DD you're really limited to strong priority from the likes of Mega-Scizor, Mega-Lopunny, Weavile, Baxcalibur and Bisharp or the Unburden sweepers Hawlucha and Sneasler. While this list seems reasonable enough, it should be noted that none of these can safely switch into Dragapult and all fail to KO it without prior chip damage, meaning Dragapult is likely KO something before being taken down itself.

My point is that defensive answers to Dragapult either fail to deal with it long term, require tera or multiple teamslots to cover all viable sets or are just flat out bad, while most offensive counterplay fails to stop Dragapult from claiming at least 1 KO.

TLDR; Dragapult is a very strong yet versatile offensive threat. Its incredible speed and STAB combo make it very difficult to check both offensively and defensively, therefore I will be voting ban.
 
At the rate things are going, the above post will be the only post about this suspect in this entire forum. A suspect on a Pokemon that everyone agrees is horrible for the meta as is with Gambit gone, and frankly didn't even deserve a suspect. And the most anyone has said about it in a suspect thread designed to generate discussion is one. Single. Post.

What is going on? What the fuck is going on?
 

seth

the mint
is a Tiering Contributor
A suspect on a Pokemon that everyone agrees is horrible for the meta as is with Gambit gone, and frankly didn't even deserve a suspect.
I entirely disagree. Dragapult offers a variety of benefits to the metagame, being an offensive check to many scary threats in the meta that could be too overbearing without Dragapult around. One prime example of this is Urshifu, which Dragapult can use it's surprisingly solid defensive typing to check and potentially turn into a chance to Dragon Dance. Dragapult also has trouble using it's full potential with incredible pokemon such as Garganacl and Ting Lu controlling the meta. Frankly, I think the meta would be near unplayable with Dragapult gone and I strongly urge you all to vote Do Not Ban.

Thank you for reading.
 

Oculars

REVERSE SHAMONE
is a Tiering Contributor
Basically when Dragapult stonks go up so do Garganacl stonks since people just slap fairy garg on teams to try and blanket check pult and everybody knows tera garg is a plague on society and for the sake of this tier we do not need more garganacl running around ladder when
Garganacl be like :garganacl: Just clickin salt cure and being fat and stuff. Pult has also lost its best check in gambit and was pretty sus before even gambit was gone its also annoying cause its always clear body when I run webs but always infiltrator when I run screens. This things busted af due to having two deace sets: specs and DD (if you use wisp hex thats not a real set) with different checks so if ur a BO kid whos not running pdef grimm on half ur teams like I do its probably hard to deal with and needs two dedicated slots or something dumb like mega audino it should kinda go without saying idk why we didnt just quickban this thing anyways everybody vote ban.
garganaclbelike.JPG
 
I think dragapult is a bit of a special case. It is one of the best mons in the tiers rn and has been an annoyance to many teams.
Most run run garg or ting lu to check it somewhat and bisharp(copium). However it is a valuable speed control mon that I think overall helps out alot of teams that kind of need it and not have to run something very restricting like scarf mons and sneas.
These are just my brief thoughts on it and didnt think through it much so take it with a grain of salt.
Overall though I believe that for the meta to be "healthier", I think banning pult will be the way forward. I can totally change my mind on this though so who knows.

Anyways have a nice day!
 
I'm sorry but you are all insane to think that Dragapult is worthy of being quickbanned. It doesn't even get close to such threshold.

DD Ghostium Z is arguably its best set, and the one which pushes Dragapult into BAN territory. There is exactly one consistent counter in Garganacl, while Mega-Tyranitar, Bisharp and Ting-Lu can take one boosted attack. Between the four of them only Mega-Tyranitar and Bisharp can guarantee the removal of Dragapult. Dragapult's decent 88/75/75 bulk and underrated defensive typing for such an excellent offensive Pokemon lets it survive things like CB Baxcalibur's, CB Weavile's Ice Shard, Samurott-H's Sucker Punch, CB Tera Water Urshifu's Surging Strikes, and take advantage of weak Pokemon like non-Knock Off Toxapex, Slowking-Galar with Substitute.

While rare, other options like Tera Fighting Dragapult can surprise and KO its checks, letting the likes of Specs Lele or Gholdengo to go ham.

I think the sensible option would be to ban Dragapult. It's quite hard to keep it in check even during teambuilding, unless you want Garganacl on every team.
 
Ting Lu controlling the meta.
Ting Lu does not control the meta. It barely exists as is and only rose because it's one of the few consistent checks to it. And even then, not a perfect check due to its awful longevity.

Dragapult offers a variety of benefits to the metagame, being an offensive check to many scary threats in the meta that could be too overbearing without Dragapult around.
Also putting this out there, but we do not do things based on X becomes overbearing if Y is banned, so don't ban Y. As it stands, DD Ghostium pult is extremely short on answers and is much too easy to boost and blow huge holes in teams, if not sweep outright. It's an unhealthy presence and the removal of it will be benefit teambuilding.
 

seth

the mint
is a Tiering Contributor
Ting Lu does not control the meta. It barely exists as is and only rose because it's one of the few consistent checks to it. And even then, not a perfect check due to its awful longevity.
Are you playing the same meta I am? Most serious teams trying to win utilize Ting Lu for the incredible role compression it offers. FaZeing, setting up multiple layers over a game, getting ruination chip on the few switch ins that exist to it on top of incredible defenses make it an arguably top 3 pokemon currently.


Also putting this out there, but we do not do things based on X becomes overbearing if Y is banned, so don't ban Y. As it stands, DD Ghostium pult is extremely short on answers and is much too easy to boost and blow huge holes in teams, if not sweep outright. It's an unhealthy presence and the removal of it will be benefit teambuilding.
This is only the case if the pokemon in question is unquestionably broken. Frankly, to me it looks like the playerbase isn't willing to explore the array of options available to check it. and just wants to be ban happy. Ting Lu and Garganacl are of course the obvious ones that come to mind however many options are available. You know what other pokemon can easily boost up and blow huge holes in teams? Kartana. Yet I haven't seen anybody complaining about it? It just doesn't make sense to me.
 
Are you playing the same meta I am? Most serious teams trying to win utilize Ting Lu for the incredible role compression it offers. FaZeing, setting up multiple layers over a game, getting ruination chip on the few switch ins that exist to it on top of incredible defenses make it an arguably top 3 pokemon currently.
Incredible defenses don't mean much when it's a ground type weak to omnipresent fighting types that are around every corner. It's decent, but not that great of a Pokemon in the grand scheme of things and especially is not top 3. Not even close. It's got major longevity issues, is weak to taunt and struggles with many top pokemon as is. And what's this claiming it has few switch ins to it?

This is only the case if the pokemon in question is unquestionably broken. Frankly, to me it looks like the playerbase isn't willing to explore the array of options available to check it. and just wants to be ban happy.
Playerbase has no issues looking for options, as evidenced by the fact that Ting Lu rose to the tier after not being in it for months just to handle pult. There's been attempts to patch up with Bisharp as well as tyranitar and mega tyranitar (the former no mega form being a bad mon). It's just that none of these are really great answers consistently.

Ting Lu and Garganacl are of course the obvious ones that come to mind however many options are available.
I'll bite. What supposed many options are there? And they have to be OU relevant.

You know what other pokemon can easily boost up and blow huge holes in teams? Kartana. Yet I haven't seen anybody complaining about it? It just doesn't make sense to me.
Because it has a much more tolerable speed tier that makes it actually possible to revenge kill without priority. Not to mention a poor stab combo. It's threatening but very much tolerable. Pult meanwhile just jets past everything after a DD and is very difficult to revenge kill after a boost. And a +1 never ending nightmare has few defensive answers that are reliable.
 

seth

the mint
is a Tiering Contributor
Incredible defenses don't mean much when it's a ground type weak to omnipresent fighting types that are around every corner. It's decent, but not that great of a Pokemon in the grand scheme of things and especially is not top 3. Not even close. It's got major longevity issues, is weak to taunt and struggles with many top pokemon as is. And what's this claiming it has few switch ins to it?
Luckily for Ting Lu, it is one of the best Terastal users in the game. Fairy, Poison, Dragon, Water are all viable options that let it leave teams battered by hazards and ruinations over the course of a game. It has great longevity with leftovers combined with its superb natural bulk in tandem with wish support from Alomolola or Blissey. I'm also not sure why you say it's weak to Taunt when that's a status move? One more thing, how does it lose to top mons when it beats the top 2 Pokemon in the tier in Gholdengo and Dragapult?

Playerbase has no issues looking for options, as evidenced by the fact that Ting Lu rose to the tier after not being in it for months just to handle pult. There's been attempts to patch up with Bisharp as well as tyranitar and mega tyranitar (the former no mega form being a bad mon). It's just that none of these are really great answers consistently.
You just listed 3 of the best answers, Ttar, Ting Lu, and Bisharp so you kinda defeated both of your arguments.


I'll bite. What supposed many options are there? And they have to be OU relevant.
Ting Lu and Garganacl are both incredible checks to it, like I already said multiple times?


Because it has a much more tolerable speed tier that makes it actually possible to revenge kill without priority. Not to mention a poor stab combo. It's threatening but very much tolerable. Pult meanwhile just jets past everything after a DD and is very difficult to revenge kill after a boost. And a +1 never ending nightmare has few defensive answers that are reliable.
SD sets can raise their speed with beast boost though? Kartana is arguably even better than dragapult at this since it has a much higher attack stat, even if you go timid, can boost its attack more quickly with SD rather than DD, and is just as hard to revenge kill after it's gotten a speed boost. Kartanas stabs also both have no immunities, while both ghost and dragon have immunities which make playing around it much easier. Again, it seems like the playerbase doesn't want to put in the work to actually play around dragapult and just want to take the easy route by banning it for no justifiable reason.
 
Luckily for Ting Lu, it is one of the best Terastal users in the game. Fairy, Poison, Dragon, Water are all viable options that let it leave teams battered by hazards and ruinations over the course of a game. It has great longevity with leftovers combined with its superb natural bulk in tandem with wish support from Alomolola or Blissey. I'm also not sure why you say it's weak to Taunt when that's a status move? One more thing, how does it lose to top mons when it beats the top 2 Pokemon in the tier in Gholdengo and Dragapult?
You know neither Alomomola nor blissey are exactly relevant right? The former is low on the VR and the latter isn't even ranked. And bulky Gholdengo, the best and most common set, just can click tera and set up on Ting Lu who can't phase it. As for tera for lu, yeah it's a good abuser but against teams with multiple threats to it (which many exist), it can feel pressured to burn tera. And leftovers alone isn't really enough longevity. Which is made worse by all the toxic users from Lando to tornadus to Heatran and zapdos.

You just listed 3 of the best answers, Ttar, Ting Lu, and Bisharp so you kinda defeated both of your arguments.
Except for mega Ttar, the others are flawed and difficult to build with Pokemon. Bisharp is really flawed and not easy to put on teams and I've talked about ting-lu's problems.

Ting Lu and Garganacl are both incredible checks to it, like I already said multiple times?
You said that there are many options are available which I asked for you to mention.

SD sets can raise their speed with beast boost though? Kartana is arguably even better than dragapult at this since it has a much higher attack stat, even if you go timid, can boost its attack more quickly with SD rather than DD, and is just as hard to revenge kill after it's gotten a speed boost. Kartanas stabs also both have no immunities, while both ghost and dragon have immunities which make playing around it much easier. Again, it seems like the playerbase doesn't want to put in the work to actually play around dragapult and just want to take the easy route by banning it for no justifiable reason.
Speed boost kartana isn't as splashable or effective as standard jolly sets. They're especially not the standard either. And even after the requisite z move is burned to claim (or try to claim) a KO, a +2 timid kart isn't the scariest thing out there. Hell, timid kart can't claim a KO vs defensive zapdos without extensive chip with z gigs impact.

Also regarding immunities with Dragapult supposedly making it easier to play around? We have no real viable bulky normals, while we have a serious shortage of viable bulky fairies. So it doesn't really matter in practice.

It's incredibly disingenous to accuse the playerbase of not wanting to adapt, when people have been trying. Pult was already contentious with Gambit around, and now that it's gone it has much more freedom to do what it wants.
 

seth

the mint
is a Tiering Contributor
The former is low on the VR and the latter isn't even ranked.
Yea.. this tells me all I need to know. Smogonites will really do any mental gymanstics they can to say something is broken because they're too lazy to try and actually find counterplay. News flash dude: VR isn't everything. We've seen many supposed "shitmons" become metagame staples in the past, so trying to claim not being ranked on the VR makes a mon not worth discussing is totally close minded. Sidenote, our VR council has people that consider Urshifu a B rank pokemon so.... Grain of salt. Keeping your mind this closed will not garner results.
 
Smogonites will really do any mental gymanstics they can to say something is broken because they're too lazy to try and actually find counterplay.
You haven't even tried to respond to arguments and are just calling people lazy because they don't want to have to use fringe or super niche Pokemon at this point.

News flash dude: VR isn't everything. We've seen many supposed "shitmons" become metagame staples in the past, so trying to claim not being ranked on the VR makes a mon not worth discussing is totally close minded.
Those mons end up finding a strong place because of multiple qualities that end up getting discovered. Not being ranked on the VR is much worse than being low on it, since at least existing on the VR means you can justify it as part of your argument. But bringing up unranked Pokemon that also are barely used (blissey) is just not helpful because they aren't part of the metagame and generally aren't good.

Also Urshifu is A- on the VR.
 
Yea.. this tells me all I need to know. Smogonites will really do any mental gymanstics they can to say something is broken because they're too lazy to try and actually find counterplay. News flash dude: VR isn't everything. We've seen many supposed "shitmons" become metagame staples in the past, so trying to claim not being ranked on the VR makes a mon not worth discussing is totally close minded. Sidenote, our VR council has people that consider Urshifu a B rank pokemon so.... Grain of salt. Keeping your mind this closed will not garner results.
The basic gist is that using Pokémon that are mediocre in literally every other situation to beat one specific mon increases the amount of matchup fishing necessary to not lose the game on the spot. “Just adapt” is an overused and frankly nonsensical response to a playerbase asking to ban a mon they have spent the entire generation trying to adapt to.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top