Suspect SV AAA Suspect #9: Triage

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Isaiah

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:Sv/Comfey: TRIAGE SUSPECT TEST :sv/Comfey:

Following a unanimous vote, the AAA council has elected to suspect test Triage!


WHY:

For some background, the subject of how to deal with Triage has undergone several phases of community discussion leading up to this point. We've debated (and resolved) the matter of whether a Belly Drum ban is feasible, Triage as a topic has come up on multiple surveys (and recently received decent support for a potential suspect test), and multiple Pokemon are banned at least partially due to the effectiveness of their Triage sets (Hariyama, Ursaluna, Iron Hands, Magearna even). With so much discourse on how to deal with Triage, the council has held a few quickban voting slates and usually settled on inaction with votes like 3-3-1 and 3-4. Since the council can't seem to reach a clear consensus, it's time for the community to play its role in deciding things!

Functionally, Triage is a very straightforward ability. It's most commonly used with Draining Kiss and Drain Punch, and more recently also works with Bitter Blade and Matcha Gatcha. By far, the biggest benefit of Triage is enabling users like Enamorus-T, Kommo-o, and Ceruledge to make up for middling/mediocre Speed and punish foes faster than themselves while retaining as much bulk as possible; when your main attack has +3 priority, you can afford more defensive investment in HP than usual. This can warp the plane of Speed tiers by denying fast threats like Roaring Moon and Chien-Pao from effectively using their Speed to revenge kill, and the HP-draining nature of Triage-boosted attacks means users can often heal themselves just enough to avoid a 2- or 3HKO.

Counterplay to Triage typically consists of packing resists or protection to Fairy, Fighting, and Fire (nobody is usually worried about Grass-type Triage, although Giga Drain Gengar and Matcha Gatcha Sinistea are usable). Offensively, Choice Scarf Psychic Surge Azelf is a staple that's strong enough to threaten most Triage users and also pivot into teammates that can utilize the protection to score a KO, such as the previously mentioned Roaring Moon. Ghost-types like Ceruledge, Gengar, and Hisuian Zoroark are powerful threats that also happen to resist certain Triage-boosted attacks. Defensively, Unaware users like Scream Tail and Deoxys-D are able to sit on the field and marinate against non-Ceruledge Triage users.


How (Suspect Details):
During a Suspect test, each player must climb the ladder until they've acquired the GXE necessary to participate in the voting. Primarily, everyone that participates needs to make an alt account following these guidelines:
  • Every game must be played on the official Pokemon Showdown! site and on a new account (creation date no earlier than today, Friday, December 29th) with "AAATR "--for example, I could create one called "AAATRevenant" to ladder with. Having the prefix at the beginning of your alt name is mandatory, AKA not in the middle (e.g. The AAATR Man) and not at the end (e.g. The AAATR).
  • To qualify for voting, your alt must meet the required GXE and games played threshold; it starts at 78% GXE at 25 games, down to 75% GXE at 40+ games.
  • Triage will be allowed on the ladder during the suspect.​
  • The suspect test will end on Monday, January 15th at 10:00pm GMT -5
  • When posting proof of meeting reqs, feel free to use this thread as a means to disseminate topical opinions regarding whether or not Triage should be banned (Optional).
  • It is mandatory to provide proof of ownership of the alt account as well. (Post a picture of your reqs with your smogon name featured)
With that all of that being said, it's suspect time! As usual, the actual voting will take place in the Blind Voting Forum and will count towards the Tiering Contributor badge, so posting anything other than proof of reqs and discussion isn't necessary.
 
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Isaiah

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I'll give a month of Discord nitro to the first person to get reqs using only a team w/ one Triage user on it (loopholes don't count). With proof, of course :P

E: Bruh, obviously I just mean use a regular team that has a Triage mon on it :/ what the heck is this about "Do I have to get reqs with a 1 Pokemon team" <- why would I want to watch 25 replays of this?!
 
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cat

anemoia
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1703906574162.png

https://pokepast.es/62f7099b58c3ae54
corv evs underspeed / outspeed something random idk, lo kommo-o can remove dnite but change to sitrus if you hate azelf, use low kick nite if garg usage keeps surging
1703905022311.png


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022891218
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022891576
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022897942
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022900146
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022902985
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022905097-255prrxsgabl1g1sg7h5y1ahxjgxzonpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022906309
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022907915
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022908527
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022910037
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022911501
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022911870
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022914746 <-- you would think scarf no guard zapdos and qm moon would result in a loss
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022918533-333gelxupcycj0x0wsuwih351uu65rnpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022920433
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022923556 <-- you would think losing 2 speed ties and losing moon would mean a lot
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022927091
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022927756 <-- s/o cteamer
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022928806
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022931574-roa0mth5gb5hgoaoev6iviqosttk3sqpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022935318
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022937291
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022938642-2y42i0hm4mv6p65oo9fhulpzhlr1667pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022940028
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022941087-po8ss7ikm8a6rh0bek21pk1ssmfg89rpw
 
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Isaiah

Here today, gone tomorrow
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View attachment 585407
https://pokepast.es/62f7099b58c3ae54
corv evs underspeed minspeed 100s, lo kommo-o can remove dnite but change to sitrus if you hate azelf, use low kick nite if garg usage keeps surging
View attachment 585405

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022891218
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022891576
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022897942
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022900146
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022902985
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022905097-255prrxsgabl1g1sg7h5y1ahxjgxzonpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022906309
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022907915
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022908527
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022910037
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022911501
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022911870
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022914746 <-- you would think scarf no guard zapdos and qm moon would result in a loss
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022918533-333gelxupcycj0x0wsuwih351uu65rnpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022920433
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022923556 <-- you would think losing 2 speed ties and losing moon would mean a lot
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022927091
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022927756 <-- s/o cteamer
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022928806
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022931574-roa0mth5gb5hgoaoev6iviqosttk3sqpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022935318
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022937291
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022938642-2y42i0hm4mv6p65oo9fhulpzhlr1667pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022940028
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2022941087-po8ss7ikm8a6rh0bek21pk1ssmfg89rpw
gg
 

Giagantic

True Coffee Maniac
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Wanted to use Regenvest Iron Crown and laddered 85% with this team https://pokepast.es/3ffe3b2151e334ac which is an okay balance but struggles hardcore versus adapt Garchomp with Draco/Eq/Fire Blast. I tilted pretty hard around 18-2 and eventually I gave up using this team and used https://pokepast.es/1defbfa00636df7a, which is basically dragon spams (4 dragons, MB Gouging Fire, Adapt Latios, Dmaw Wake, Sor Scarf Roaring Moon, with a small defensive core of Swampert + Corviknight.

Dunno what I will vote, on one hand hate how fishy it is but as TL of OM I am honestly hardpressed to say that it is broken and deserving of a ban.
 
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Ok reqs were rough, mainly because i'm stubborn and like to use the same team 10 million times.

Teams used for suspect run:
(These teams were average at best and have some matchups that suck a ton, most notably stall)

:roaring moon: :great tusk: :kingambit: :manaphy: :sandy shocks: :hoopa:

:latios: :iron moth: :swampert: :corviknight: :roaring moon: :cresselia:

As for triage, I don't have a full guess as to what im voting. At the start of the suspect I was confident in no ban but as i played through the suspect I really started to see the fishy nature of it. i'll just listen to others thoughts and make my decision based on that.
 
Had a fun time getting reqs!

One of my first posts was actually about how I found triage unfun/boring to play against. My opinion on it really hasn't changed that much, even though I have become much better at playing around it, the cheese factor is always there. I have had multiple instances of not getting positioning right on the one turn it matters, weird coverage moves, weakened checks, or it just simply muscling through and lost because of it. This could easily be said for other set-up sweepers, but the priority bracket of triage + healing while attacking sets it apart from the others. Even with more checks and counters than ever before, it still feels like a fishy match-up. It also has led to the ban of multiple mons, headaches of discussion, and with BD + triage not on the table, I believe banning is the next best thing.


Screenshot 2023-12-30 at 3.09.26 PM.png


Either way you should listen to Fulfillingness' First Finale by Stevie Wonder
 
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Out of curiosity, if triage is banned, how would the releasing of the prisoners be handled? All at the same time? I assume Hariyama and Ursaluna are free to go, so what about Iron Hands? Do we give Magearna another week to get quickbanned for some other shenanigans?
 

Isaiah

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View attachment 585541

Out of curiosity, if triage is banned, how would the releasing of the prisoners be handled? All at the same time? I assume Hariyama and Ursaluna are free to go, so what about Iron Hands? Do we give Magearna another week to get quickbanned for some other shenanigans?
If Triage gets banned, council will subsequently do a voting slate on Pokemon banned with Triage cited as one of the reasons for their ban. That entails stuff like Hariyama, Ursaluna, Iron Hands, and Magearna. If you care to know what I'm voting, I'll be putting in unban for everything :P
 

Hera

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i swear the table gets worse everytime i use it, i might have to send him into retirement soon (the team's good into those webs and screens teams running around though)

already said my piece but reposting here for posterity

would like to add to the cat post above that gar is also good counterplay, screens or not it trades with kommo at worst after a bd with swave + rocks + lo recoil and can't be drain punched. poltea does not need to be armor tail since it already has an immunity to fighting. there's also dnite which lives a +6 dpunch if you invest in bulk (+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Kommo-o Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Dragonite: 273-322 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), and tspikes which really cuts into kommo-o's hp pool. these aren't the most effective outside of a vaccum for the most part but since most of the other counterplay listed in cat's post wasn't either i just assumed we were thinking about counterplay in a vacuum.

personally i thought triage would be broken and qbed right after dlc dropped because kommo-o was coming back + we all thought they were gonna fix bitter blade, but the former has been checked by azzy, a top tier mon otherwise, and the latter never happened. the other legal triage users have never been problematic and i'm of the opinion that triage itself is healthy for the meta despite what some people on the discord seem to think. in this meta there's a decent amount of counterplay to triage users between azzy, unawares, and dazzling mons that would all see usage without triage, and it's been proven time and time again that triage is only problematic when you can insta boost to +6 with bd.
triage isn't unhealthy. i've said this before but i think having a way to revenge kill faster threats without having to dedicate slots to a scarfer is a boon for fatter teams and adds more to the meta than it would take away. if anything it's always been the combination of triage drain punch + bd in the past that's gotten mons banned, but with kommo legal and more tools than ever to deal with it it's been mostly proven that these mons would be fine in the meta, and all the other triage users are either bad or balanced in the meta, so it's clearly triage dp + bd th. as for kommo itself yeah if literally everything goes its way (meaning light screen is up + no tspikes or other hazards that push it into ko range + no faster ghosts in a meta where ghold and cerul are great + a free turn to setup on something + no unaware), then it sweeps but this happens so very little of the time. almost every good team should be naturally prepped for triage kommo via any of the methods i listed + others i'm forgetting rn and in practice it rarely gets a chance to do anything with so much counterplay running around. i thought cerul would be broken as well as but again, with all the natural counterplay in faster 4x resists/immunites that wouldn't see any less usage if cerul/triage was banned + a rocks weakness that's difficult to circumvent since lo nets so many kills, i've found it to be rather underwhelming although still a good mon. if anything, we should be freeing ursa and hari as those can't possibily be any worse than kommo is currently.

i really dislike these arguments because they don't make a lot of sense. no one is seriously saying that some shitmon like prankster air balloon wisp banette should be run on every team to beat specifically triage users, practically any anti-cheese stuff will work vs kommo and most other triage mons. cerul is a bit harder to outsource with anti-cheese but again resists and immunites work just fine considering there's just so many of them and that a +2 hit is a lot weaker than a +6 hit. using kyorge as a stand-in for kommo here is also a false equilvalent as they have massively different power levels; in fact, i bet kyorge could beat up a hoodra anyway by using the old ag set of sub/cm/block/scald. if we really wanted to we could sit here all day and point out how many variants kyorge has that could help it beat whatever the hell it wants on top of its sheer power. triage mons don't have that luxury, they will always have overlapping counterplay in terms of bd triage and faster resists/immunites in terms of other triage setup sweepers like cerul or enam.

don't ban triage. it's just a bad idea.
after playing a bit more i can kinda see the mu fish angle (although frankly if you're not prepping for triage in this meta with all the options we have you deserve to lose), but i also think triage is generally balanced enough for it not to be an issue, and i don't really see triage as any different from other mu fishes like, say, unaware setup users or mid-tier breakers like regidraco; sometimes you just load into bad mus and lose, it happens. imo we should only ban mu fishes when they are clearly too good for the meta (see: triage bd mons dominating pre-home, unburden mons being stupid as hell before it was banned), which triage is not, and there are much more pressing issues like gorging flame or moon that i would rather ban over triage (idk if either of them are broken though).

tl;dr triage is balanced and healthy, if anything is broken it's cerul by itself, will be voting dnb
 
Team I used https://pokepast.es/fbb3edadb06afc80

Not well put together team tbh, but modest maw wake is a behemoth. Scarf moon underrated in this meta.

Likely voting ban:
More restrictive in builder than TD for me tbh.
Also azelf is bang average IMO so would rather not need to play it… the fact I ran up against spdef grassy surge corvi, so the opp can uturn into their triage mon is hilarious.
If a single ability is the reason for multiple Pokémon bans, the issue is likely the ability, not the Pokémon IMO.

my 2 cents, annihilape could be freed/suspected if triage is banned. BU Triage was the only ability I feared when playing against it. Other abilities it had were not too bad.

edit: to add - my hesitancy with my ‘likely’ comment on voting is based on the community vote to ban toxic debris. Despite lots of counterplay options (HDB, removal, poison, steel, flying, MG, levitate etc) it was still seen as too restrictive in builder.
I consider the same for triage- immunities, dazzling, WBB, psy surge, quad resists, unaware are all valid counterplay options- but still needs to be prepared for in the same vain. Sometimes you can’t plan for every ability/Pokémon, and it’s just a bad matchup.
Not sure where we want to go as a metagame about this. I’ll decide on the day after reading other people’s opinions, but current lean is to vote ban, moreso to free banned Pokémon.
 

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Slither Wing

used First Impression!
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1704296613170.png

First Flawless run, s/o to cat for the broken screens

Ban Triage, it's clear that there are more people who see it as a problem compared to people seeing it as healthy and enjoyable, and while it has sufficient counterplay, not everyone wants to bring Azelf or Scream Tail onto their team. It might just be MU fish, but it's still too restricting imo, so I'll be voting Ban.
 

Isaiah

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The team: :sv/Skarmory::sv/Primarina::sv/Blissey::sv/Gouging Fire::sv/Great Tusk::sv/Deoxys-Speed:

Code:
Primarina
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Moonblast
- Flip Turn
- Baby-Doll Eyes
- Haze
Trust me...it's actually good. If I knew Broken-Doll Eyes was +1 priority, I would've listened UT and tried this mon sooner for real

Dunno what I'm gonna vote yet, most Triage mons are mid in practice, but you can't always just have the hard counter--especially if it's something like webs + Kommo-o.
 
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