Suspect SV AAA Suspect #6: Ursaluna

[Isaiah]

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WHY:

Ursaluna has come up in discussion across all platforms a decent amount, and its status is most notably marked by the council's inability to reach a clear decision on the most recent quickban slate. (Hint: That's why there's a suspect test!)

Perhaps Ursaluna's most obvious set is Belly Drum + Triage, which typically makes use of Belly Drum / Drain Punch / Earthquake (to avoid Fluffy) / Filler. While Drain Punch is of course not STAB-boosted, a 140 base Attack Pokemon at +6 Attack is pretty strong. With its combination of priority and power, Ursaluna poses a threat to many offensive Pokemon after setup, and naturally packs enough power to threaten a good portion of defensive ones as well. While Ursaluna does naturally have fairly common weaknesses such as Fighting and Water, the fact that it is most often used on screens teams means calcs like this are possible: 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Zapdos-Galar Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaluna through Reflect: 402-474 (86.6 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO. That's an awfully powerful attack to have a super favorable chance of stomaching. While more niche, Ursaluna can also be used as a Surge Surfer user on Electric Terrain teams or with Swords Dance in conjunction with Triage, Mold Breaker, and Sword of Ruin.

That being said, unless it's running Life Orb, Belly Drum Ursaluna struggles to break through Unaware users, namely Cresselia and Scream Tail, without either giving up its item or moveslot to either run Life Orb or specific coverage. If the Ursaluna isn't running Triage, its low base 50 Speed also makes it a much less credible threat against the plethora of faster Pokemon capable of KOing it, and obstacles like entry hazards and Will-O-Wisp can make finding success difficult.

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How (Suspect Details):
During a Suspect test, each player must climb the ladder until they've acquired the GXE necessary to participate in the voting. Primarily, everyone that participates needs to make an alt account following these guidelines:

• Every game must be played on the official Pokemon Showdown! site and on a new account (creation date no earlier than today, June 18th) with "AAAU "--for example, I could create one called "AAA Ursa Major" to ladder with. Having the prefix at the beginning of your alt name is mandatory, AKA not in the middle (e.g. The AAAU Man) and not at the end (e.g. The AAAU).​
• To qualify for voting, your alt must meet the required GXE and games played threshold; it starts at 78% GXE at 25 games, down to 75% GXE at 40+ games.
  

  Table of Reqs

  
• Ursaluna will be allowed on the ladder during the suspect.​
• The suspect test will go for two weeks and end on Sunday, July 2nd at 10:00 PM GMT -4.​
• When posting proof of meeting reqs, feel free to use this thread as a means to disseminate topical opinions regarding whether or not Ursaluna should be banned (Optional)​
• It is mandatory to provide proof of ownership of the alt account as well. (Post a picture of your reqs with your smogon name featured)​

With that all of that being said, it's suspect time! As usual, the actual voting will take place in the Blind Voting Forum, so posting anything other than proof of reqs and discussion isn't necessary.

Tagging Kris for implementation

 

[Isaiah]

DNB for sure, my opinion hasn't changed from my previous posts I made in the AAA thread. Ursaluna is a very all or nothing mon that often does nothing; the games where it's pulling off something worthwhile hardly happen enough to be worried. Even using nothing but screens with several mons weak to its coverage, I don't think I lost a single game to an Ursaluna team in my run.

Full sent it with my sample team bc I hate restarting on new alts just bc of early losses. Team can probably can get a much better record than mine with a bit of luck + better playing :P

 

[cat]

Part goat
https://pokepast.es/5096319b1334ffc1 standard HO used

 

[Slither Wing]

Team: https://pokepast.es/3b7f2d34dbe73eaf

Definetly DNB, Its just a cheese pick with way too many counters and is very predictable on what it wants to do. Things such as Fluffy, Unaware or Ghost-types just completely walls/counters it.

Edit: I like the idea of banning belly drum, since the only mons who abuse it have been problematic/controversial outside of Slowbro-g, and it also allows both Triage to still be allowed and mons like Hariyama & Ursuluna to be unbanned/not banned

Edit 2: After learning about tiering policies and hearing other people thoughts & arguments im not sure I'm on the DNB train anymore, since mixed sets combined with MU fishing is what makes it too much IMO

 

[Isaiah]

Team: pokepast.es/fca66029c3f30176

I'm offended by this team name, so to balance things out I will be submitting a second team paste for people to try:


In the future, please refrain from trying to build more boring teams than me.

 

[Giagantic]

DNB for sure, not once in my time playing did I get swept by a Ursaluna, nor did I struggle with it in prior post-home games up to this point. I can't support something that I personally never experienced, heck I even tried to use it in the role most use it as, namely, as a Triage Drain Punch sweeper but found it lackluster and better fit in other roles...

(Edit: Quite possibly Ban now, unhealthy MU fish is unhealthy.)

Used this team primarily, though it went through many iterations (change Cresselia's item to lefties, was testing something forgot to change back):

Struggles versus specs Typhlosion-hisui since it can 1 to 2hko everything so best not give it the chance to do so, even if it means sacking stuff to weaken it enough for goodra-hisui to not be 2hko'd.


(May Change to Ban depending on arguments)

 

[Atha]

most painful run I've had probably ever

don't even know what I'll vote, leaning dnb
Or ban

e : yes, ban belly drum

 

[cjw405]

While I hate ursaluna I dont believe it's broken.

Shoutout to thundurus-t for ohkoing multiple goodra-h's.

 

[MZ]

I’m just gonna drop some unstructured thoughts from my phone because no ban seems strong here and I want this guy gone. Luna absolutely has good stops but I think they’re problematically few. The restrictiveness of Unaware in a meta that all but requires you already using regen and fluffy or intimidate is obnoxious, it’s not hard to set up even without screens, and I think its value in shutting out teams and driving building is too problematic despite how it can absolutely be quite mediocre vs the well-prepped. Look how every team here so far is HO or fits unaware. I’m not convinced the anti-luna options go much deeper than that. To me the thing DNB would need to show is that its depth of checks is larger and easier to fit on teams than it seems because right now I don’t get it. Ppl mostly seem to be saying it hasn’t beat them and sure, fine, but what is it doing to building? To be clear I’m barely building and not gonna vote, I could be convinced to switch sides, but this dimension of the debate seems lacking.

 

[Ivar57]

Will vote dnb, dealing with ursaluna is challenging, especially in the building restrictions it causes. But I don't believe ursaluna is the broken element.

The cause of it being problematic in the builder is belly drum. This move has been brought up many times by many different players, and I believe we have to find a way to balance it. In my opinion there are 3 ways to do this. Either we ban triage, we ban all the problematic abusers (even if they aren’t broken), or we ban belly drum. I strongly believe banning belly drum is the best option here as it causes next to no collateral damage.

Belly drum is a move that game freak has balanced by making the abusers slow, often having to rely on trick room, pure bulk or weak priority moves to get damage before getting killed. With the restrictions imposed by the main games belly drum is a balanced move. There are multiple OM’s that create an environment where this restriction can be evaded. The move is banned in BH due to unburden and triage being able to avoid the usual counterplay. This same issue is also evident in AAA, with the main options triage and unburden you are able to avoid the restriction of speed. Unburden has obviously been banned, but this has mostly been for the reason of belly drum sitrus berry sets. I actually believe unburden to be a balanced ability if belly drum was not around.

For these reasons I suggest a ban of belly drum, hariyama to be unbanned, and a re-suspect of unburden. I am aware that this is in opposition to the tiering policy followed but I believe there are sufficient reasons to deviate in this case. Saying that we won't ban drum because all drummers need to be problematic evades good reasoning simply to hold up a tiering policy that makes sub-optimal decisions.

I would love to hear the opinions of others so please let me know if you have the chance to.

 

[Osake]

confirming as AAAU Ro(a)re, laddered with this which is a pre-home team cuz who needs Home lol ? I change Slither's ability depending of my mood (and to avoid people bringing CT so the check always change b/w Adapt Tinted and Scrappy hehe)

Anyway. Ursaluna is a bad mon, let's be honest, and the only reason it is suspected is because it's Triage set is stupid, others sets are nowhere near broken/unhealthy
Banning Belly Drum is by far the easiest way to prevent this stupid fish to exist, which only exists in AAA due to the Ability change (and was banned in BH for similar reasons), and Hariyama or Ursaluna are mid/bad without BD + Triage, every single other Triage mon is good at best and often mid.

Banning Ursaluna would be fine cuz I guess it's the best abuser so far, but this won't stop people to use BD fish. Will they be good? No. Ursaluna isn't good, let's be honest, Hariyama wasn't good either (and yet it was banned without a suspect). They're just unhealthy, and that is a fair enough reason to look at the unhealthy part of the problem being Belly Drum, which has no use outside of Triage and just creates unhealthy structures when you use HO, use Unaware, or can lose at any moment. Banning Triage would work too, but once again, for real ? We're banning mons that has 0 potential outside of BD, banning an ability that has nothing wrong outside of BD (and already kinda did with Unburden although it's different), just for the sake of not banning a move that is obviously unhealthy in a metagame that allows you to run a priority with it.

it doesn't really matter at the end of the day, it is 'fine' if we just ban all the things that make BD Triage mons annoying, whether it is the mons or the ability. It just makes the metagame slightly worse, as some mons that are banned could be free without that and you'll always be weak to a random Chessnaught cleaning you, but yeah I guess that's minor if that doesn't happen often. I hate this idea of "you can straight up lose to something that's life" and I dislike keeping it in a metagame bc it adds literally nothing, and I'm just looking to have the most enjoyable metagame possible - Belly Drum makes it less good, and I believe council members (of AAA or of OMs overall) are smart enough to know when a move is broken in the very specific conditions of their metagame which changes major points of the game (so it's normal that it happens) and not ban w/e move they find annoying. I think the point made here is very obvious and let me know when you'll find something that can be as unhealthy of Belly Drum + Triage by nature

At the end of the day, it is not that much of a big deal, but it just leads to suboptimal decisions that are also incoherent with the previous ones (i.e. Electrify ban, no Helioptile wasn't good or broken with it, but it was a unhealthy fish due to Electrify + Lightning Rod existing in AAA and not in regular tiers - so that was the right decision, but then we need to realise it's the exact same case here)

Will vote BAN unless something happens, Ursaluna isn't the problem, Triage isn't the problem, but well at least remove annoying fish and free the builder lol

 

[Schpoonman]

View attachment 527747

Will vote dnb, dealing with ursaluna is challenging, especially in the building restrictions it causes. But I don't believe ursaluna is the broken element.

The cause of it being problematic in the builder is belly drum. This move has been brought up many times by many different players, and I believe we have to find a way to balance it. In my opinion there are 3 ways to do this. Either we ban triage, we ban all the problematic abusers (even if they aren’t broken), or we ban belly drum. I strongly believe banning belly drum is the best option here as it causes next to no collateral damage.

Belly drum is a move that game freak has balanced by making the abusers slow, often having to rely on trick room, pure bulk or weak priority moves to get damage before getting killed. With the restrictions imposed by the main games belly drum is a balanced move. There are multiple OM’s that create an environment where this restriction can be evaded. The move is banned in BH due to unburden and triage being able to avoid the usual counterplay. This same issue is also evident in AAA, with the main options triage and unburden you are able to avoid the restriction of speed. Unburden has obviously been banned, but this has mostly been for the reason of belly drum sitrus berry sets. I actually believe unburden to be a balanced ability if belly drum was not around.

For these reasons I suggest a ban of belly drum, hariyama to be unbanned, and a re-suspect of unburden. I am aware that this is in opposition to the tiering policy followed but I believe there are sufficient reasons to deviate in this case. Saying that we won't ban drum because all drummers need to be problematic evades good reasoning simply to hold up a tiering policy that makes sub-optimal decisions.

I would love to hear the opinions of others so please let me know if you have the chance to.

Purely from a spectating point of view Belly Drum or Triage appear to be the root cause of multiple bans. Iron Hands is gone, Hariyama recently got the boot, and now Luna's up. Belly Drum is absolutely a move kept balanced in standard by distribution limited to Pokemon who are not obviously busted with it, but like Osaka said above OMs change dynamics in such a way that sticking too closely to policy results in worse metagames. Belly Drum being a match-up fish is reinforced when we look at other OMs that have enabled instantly quadrupling an already high Attack with priority or means to instantly boost speed. Banning BD would also keep potentially more abilities from becoming broken and keep the spirit of AAA better.

 

[The Number Man]

no reqs yet, but i fully support ivar+osake - luna is not op, just drumtriage set is a very annoying + uncomp fish. take away drum and luna is probably fine.

 

[UT]

Banning Belly Drum is not on the table.

Currently, only Hariyama is definitively banned due to Triage; while Iron Hands was definitely broken with it, it is likely also broken with multiple other abilities (Surge Surfer, Regenerator, Fluffy, etc).

If Ursulana is banned and another Triage user rises up, then that would be a good time to revisit banning Triage and freeing Ursulana and Hariyama (and considering Iron Hands). This is a step in the process, and we will see where it takes us.

 

[Isaiah]

I don't really want to reply to Belly Drum arguments for the umpteenth time since the reasoning for why a ban on the move isn't happening has not changed (and the evidence necessary to ban it still doesn't exist), but I at least wanted to respond to this:

The restrictiveness of Unaware in a meta that all but requires you already using regen and fluffy or intimidate is obnoxious, it’s not hard to set up even without screens, and I think its value in shutting out teams and driving building is too problematic despite how it can absolutely be quite mediocre vs the well-prepped. Look how every team here so far is HO or fits unaware. I’m not convinced the anti-luna options go much deeper than that.

I personally find it odd that in general, it's not considered a problem that Regenerator is on [almost] every team and Intimidate is on [almost] every Corviknight, but Unaware being super common is seen as too much. This has always been the case in AAA; it's only more noticeable now because instead of having the crux of double regen to dance around setup, you're more limited and have to rely on hard counterplay to things more often. Unaware is not used for just one or two specific Pokemon. For example, you run Unaware Scream Tail because it has the ability to beat most neutral setup Pokemon on a given opposing team by itself. Considering that offensive Pokemon are using devastatingly powerful amplification like Sheer Force, Adaptability, Sword of Ruin, etc., it makes perfect sense that more defensive teams have to opt for just-as-extreme solutions like Unaware when those damage-amped Pokemon now click Nasty Plot or Swords Dance all of a sudden.

Also @ the point about a lot of the teams in the thread being HO or having Unaware--well yeah, it's a suspect test thread. Everyone wants quick and easy points, and spamming HO is obviously going to be one of the most rewarding ways to do that. In answer to a lot of suspect alts trying to farm the ladder with offense, people will build with hard counterplay like Unaware in response. I get the point being made, but I'm not sure a suspect test thread is the greatest example for it.

A side note is that I'm beginning to agree with some of what Siamato said in his post about 2AC (even though I disagree and think 2ac should come back), which is that maybe this gen is just meant to be more offense-inclined. Perhaps unlike previous gens, this time around it has to be balance coming up with consistent ways to sustainably beat offense, rather than the other way around. This is relevant to the current discussion because if that's the case, then it only defends the increased use of Unaware (Scream Tail is S tier btw, Atha is just a hater) as a means to handle said offensive elements.

Ursaluna isn't unique just because it can occasionally win on the spot. At least 20 of my suspect test run wins were me bringing in Zamazenta-Crowned or Volcarona and never switching out, but there are some games where I ran into Skeledirge and Zamazenta-Crowned became an Unranked Pokemon. Those few games where Ursaluna is getting its autowin moment are drowned out by the majority of games where it struggles to do much against a well-built team. Maybe this isn't a popular perspective, but I'm totally fine with having some Pokemon like that. Sometimes you're just going to get rolled by something, but as long as it's not happening consistently enough to be disastrous, that thing doesn't really need to be banned. The metagame can still reach a fairly balanced, enjoyable, and competitive state regardless (or maybe you guys are hiding real defensive Galarian Zapdos counterplay in a bunker I don't know about).

 

[LordBox]

Ngl I probably could've made this easier on myself but I just spammed a slightly modified version of Isaiah's old stall team until I eventually got enough GXE and the GXE limit lowered enough. Btw Isaiah what is your plan against like, weather, I just collapse and die sob. (Also died to some random running DDance MGLO Mew, actually most MGLO mons outside of the main three suck to deal with ngl and nearly lost the reqs to someone running Normalize Entrainment Hawlucha with Trace Mean Look Curse Rest Mismagius lol). The benefit of running Stall over HO is 1. Consistency 2. It's funny when people cry about it.

.

I've already made my stance on Ursaluna fairly clear, and I think others have also made clear in the thread so I'll keep this fairly short. I've never thought that Ursuluna was broken, the Triage Belly Drum sets are fairly mid when you actually use them for yourselves (against good players***) given it is a near number 1 priority to answer given otherwise they threaten a very easy 6-0. And that really is my problem with it, it's a dumb and uncompetitive fish. Yes there are multiple checks and answers, but is annoyingly restricting towards teambuilding, particularly towards offensive teams which can't afford to fit Unaware and forced into jank checks like Ceruledge (which is odd on offense) or PsySurge Azelf always which I feel is a bit too restrictive. Hedging for Ursuluna is also immensely difficult given its bulk and +3 priority; you are going to use a hard answer or there's a large chance Ursuluna just sweeps you (and that Gapdos calc is STUPID lol). I'd really prefer Belly Drum, that is really the uncompetitive element here given the immense boost it grants at the very heavy cost making anything that uses it really just go for a fish, but oh well. It may not be complete relief, but is a form of relief given it by far the best abuser and it is hard to argue for Triage (given it also has fairly fine abusers like Enam) and frees up a lot more versatility for balance (yes Unaware is great, but do we wish to add another near-mandatory rather than great?) particularly on more offensive teams, which is generally what we're aiming for (although I suppose there is a limit to trying to ban stuff for more "diversity" in the meta and trying to conserve what we already have).

Also for those say it was only Hariyama that was banned because of Triage, that's false lol. Iron Hands was banned because of TRIAGE + BELLY DRUM lets not kid ourselves here. Could've it been broken? Sure, it has very large bulk and big stats all around (although Ursuluna also has this although with a worse typing). The only actual set I saw before the ban and after FurScales was really RegenVest, which obviously wasn't problematic at all. Other more niche abilities were flying around at the time, like immunities/Surge Surfer which remain unproven (EE could be pretty scary but a good chunk of checks still remain the same like the Tail and Ghost Wispers) Really it was the BDrum + Triage set that led to its ban and I think it's silly to say otherwise without much real proof (and if you want to go on about Unaware Stail and Cress...) Honestly you could probably even argue some of the same points here to keep BDrum + Triage Iron Hands in the tier...

 

[Career Ended]

Heyo
Im voting ban. Luna constrains the builder. I've built plenty of teams that when I'm done I just say "wow if luna gets a drum off I lose". I go into games and see opposing luna and start thinking "hmmm as long as I can prevent luna from drumming I won't instalose." Sometimes it's easy to prevent luna from drumming but sometimes theres simply nothing you can do, especially if your opponent can set up screens.

Now theres a lot of talk about luna having lots of counterplay, which is true, except luna can truly crush every possible counterplay with the right set. For some of the slower sets, mostly SD/Drum mold breaker or basically Orb/CB Guts / SoR / Tinted lens / Scrappy / whatever else, they're really only truly scary on trick room or webs or paraspam teams, but when they load into stall or fatter/slower builds nothing is stopping them from claiming every time they come in. These breaker sets are slow, but still very dangerous and formidable. I'm not a big fan of mold breaker sets personally as they lack the immediate power boost, but run into a team with Unaware Corv / Cress / Scream Tail as its "Luna counterplay" and you will surely claim at least their unaware mon if not more. Though I'm sure everyone is here not because they think these 199/218 max speed breaker lunas are busted, its because of the speed boosting / Triage Luna. The usage of Unaware in OMPL really highlights why I think Luna is broken, it conforms the builder around it a bit too much. The speed boosting Luna sets are so dangerous because they very nearly completely invalidate the offensive counterplay that holds the slow breaker Luna sets in check. This is heightened to an extreme degree because of the move Belly Drum, where often times the game devolves to a 50/50 where if you attack the Luna, you'll be losing your pokemon to prevent a belly drum, but they could just OHKO you instead and you'd lose a pokemon for nothing. But if you were to switch out you'd lose the game on the spot. This is a very big Lose/lose for the player without Luna. There are few offensive pokemon that threaten to outright OHKO luna, barring screens where the few become the handful. These scenarios often remind me of gen8bh, a metagame that banned belly drum because of the nature of its uncompetitiveness as move (risk/reward).

A lot of the Pro DNB voters are arguing "oftentimes I see opposing luna and I packed unaware scream tail and they are triage so it did nothing haha bad pokemon." first of all these guys are forgetting these calcs exist and that unaware scream tail isnt really a fullstop counter at all, the only real safe counter is unaware cresselia and unaware corviknight (loses to hammer arm btw but I wouldn't dare say thats an actual real set.)

252+ Atk Life Orb Ursaluna Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Scream Tail: 218-257 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- 23% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Ursaluna Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Scream Tail: 291-343 (67 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Ursaluna Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 174-205 (43.6 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Ursaluna Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 199-235 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So we've covered that the slow breaker sets can dent fat and slower builds but require team support to get in safely or finish off slower pokemon and we've covered that triage belly drum is a crazy matchup fish that 6-0s practically any team lacking an unaware blob or dazzling chien pao / greninja / meowscarada (or something else that can kill a luna from full, and is worth using dazzling on... couldn't think of any besides those 3 tho)
Other counterplay includes more niche stuff like Fluffy/intimidate slither wing, sword of ruin ceruledge, either zapdos or Earth Eater skeledirge though non of these are totally sound (slither cant switch in on fire punch, ceruledge cant switch in on headlong, zapdos-g dies to +6 after rocks 70% of time and primsea cant really kill back, skeledirge loses to the rare crunch coverage [Fake coverage no one runs that])

I'd now like to cover Surge Surfer Luna and will be referring to this set:

Ursaluna @ Punching Glove / Life Orb
Ability: Surge Surfer
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Thunder Punch
- Headlong Rush
- Swords Dance
- Ice Punch

Maybe I'm a little bit biased because I used this for my reqs and built like 6 teams with it for ompl and I dig the set but this third Luna set gives it a bit too much versatility for this pokemon and pushes it into seriously unhealthy territory. First of all this set lures in almost all of the non unaware counterplay and sends it packing. Here are some nice calcs of Luna in action



+1 252+ Atk Punching Glove Ursaluna Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Intimidate Quaquaval in Electric Terrain: 338-398 (90.6 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Punching Glove Ursaluna Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 68 Def Fluffy Slither Wing in Electric Terrain: 302-356 (80.7 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ Atk Punching Glove Ursaluna Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Landorus-Therian: 324-384 (84.8 - 100.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Punching Glove Ursaluna Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Garchomp: 440-520 (104.7 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO


I will now go over a bunch of replays from my reqs journey and pointing out problematic situations where the Ursaluna player has an unfair advantage because of the existence of the triage set. (take all of these with a grain of salt since they're from ladder and it's not a serious match)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1888509043-rzashrber6wgbr6llgfgzw295woz8ftpw

My opponent lacks an unaware pokemon and doesn't have anything that outpaces 398 so SS ursaluna wins this game practically on matchup, even though he has an intimidate corviknight and a fluffy garchomp, since punching glove bypasses fluffy.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1888557218
This game is just to show how unaware scream tail is more of a check than a counter as I get the para and now he can't afford to stall me out since he'll eventually para and die.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1888693163
this replay is doctored in a way. I gave UT a sample team and asked him to use it. I didn't change my team at all. The counterplay on the sample team to Triage ursaluna is pretty simple: don't let it setup. fluffy lando can take any 1 hit and deal some serious dmg with eq and talon can take 1 drain punch at +6 assuming no boosting item (life orb always ohkos, glove is 56% to ohko). This team completely folds to surge surfer luna and this replay demonstrates that even though you may be prepared for the most broken luna, a different luna might crush you as well.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1886364661
In this replay I misplay the start here by letting my opponent get up screens and go luna for free, where he can simply belly drum for free, since he's sitrus berry. From turn 4 on incredibly precise play is required in order to not let him claim 5 kills in the 5 turns of reflect he has up since luna is fat enough for this calc to exist.
252 Atk Life Orb Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ursaluna through Reflect: 164-192 (35.3 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
From here he is still able to claim 3 kills with the Luna.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1881365313 Also can't believe this game hasn't been brought up yet but luna doesn't always need to get off a drum to seriously put in work

Anyway I'm not sure any of these calcs or replays really demonstrate my point but I'm just trying to show common Luna interactions in the meta.
My final thoughts are basically as follows: Triage Luna is such a dangerous matchup fish that 6-0s practically any build lacking unaware or one of the handful of checks it has (claiming just attack it with your strong pokemon so it can't setup is bad argument especially when considering screens) The Breaker sets are niche and require plenty of team support but are also dangerous lures for its common checks. Surge Surfer (and theoretically swift swim? BUT I haven't used it and it seems more inconsistent and requires more specialized team support than surge) does a great job of eliminating the offensive counterplay that Triage Luna might struggle with. Surge Surfer is also very hard to scout early game (once eterrain hits 6 turns you can assume it, or after seeing it outpace 218 speed pokemon) and can proof a good surprise killer.

I'd like to echo the voices of Osake, TNM, Ivar, Lordbox and Atha and point out that **Belly Drum** is the problematic feature of Luna. I understand that Mons -> Abilities -> Moves and theres not much precedent for banning a move with so few abusers but I'd like to also point out that the point of tiering is to provide the most balanced metagame. Anyway even with the support for such a ruling from decorated players and council members I doubt an outcome like this would actually come about, so I won't actually push this narrative any more than simply mentioning it again.

Also heres the esurge stuff:
https://pokepast.es/ed49445f72af979b
https://pokepast.es/d516852bdfbd720f
https://pokepast.es/fba46c75a07bfe0a
https://pokepast.es/9bb703597e03befc

Tl;DR voting ban, triage drum broken, surge surfer fast and strong, CB is meh

 

[Isaiah]

I thought it would be neat to post some logs from a convo in the council channel we just had since it's relevant here; take with it what you will. I also wanted to point out for the last time that Unaware had 19230192032% usage before Ursaluna was even a legal Pokemon stop using that as part of the pro-ban argument.

CAUTION: Very long line of screenshots.

Hide

Some highlights:
> Ursaluna's propensity for often being all or nothing on the Belly Drum + Triage set might make it more of an uncompetitive element than a traditionally broken one
> Even if something is broken/uncompetitive sometimes, if that isn't happening super often do we still need to ban it? There's minor support for getting of things like Quick Draw + Quick Claw, Stench, and (sometimes) Serene Grace, but if those options tend to be bad enough that they aren't seen in tour play or even really much on ladder, do they really deserve to be banned? An interesting question to answer because I (personally at least) see Ursaluna as being on the same level as all of the above
===
All of that established, I don't think Ursaluna has shown itself to be anywhere near a convincingly problematic enough pick for teambuilding or gameplay to get rid of entirely. If that changes, I'll be the first one to co-sign a banpost.

 

[Atha]

- Belly Drum + Triage is the only set we're talking about.
- Pokémon that beat Ursaluna behind screens : [ ] (band SoR with some bulk)

• That's not a lot of Pokémon.
• Not enough to consider using Ursaluna unreasonable.
• The counterplay is wide enough if we assume no screens.

- You won't prevent a decent player from getting up screens and clicking Belly Drum.

• MZ tried to do it in this game but it was too costly.
• A lot of ladder players that use Ursaluna are not decent players.
• There is no improvizing counterplay or stalling out screens, because Drain Punch heals. There is no outplaying.
• Ursaluna under screens wins or does nothing.

- Players want to have at least a shot in all matchups.

• The problem is that the counterplay is scarce + there is no outplaying. It's a combination of the two factors.
• For Polteageist, there is no outplaying, but the counterplay isn't as scarce. For Zapdos-G, the counterplay is scarce, but outplaying is possible.
• The question is therefore : do I want to put one of the counters in all my teams ?

- Scream Tail is the only one of these Pokémon that one could arguably want to put on most teams.

• Cresselia is worse Scream Tail in too many aspects. Skeledirge isn't very good.
• Zapdos-G and Slither Wing are good but too committing.

- A lot of players don't want to put Scream Tail in most of their teams. (Read : Scream Tail sucks, Isaiah)

• It's a passive wall that needs 2 turns to heal, making it exploitable.
• Its only utility would be passing Wishes, which isn't hard for the opponent to prevent.
• One (1) useful Wish has been passed by an Unaware Scream Tail throughout OMPL, in Shiloh vs Osake, and it was a sacrifice. The only other wish passes by Scream Tail as a whole were by Shiloh in that same game (Pixilate). Here are all the OMPL games featuring Scream Tail : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (Notice that about half of them aren't Unaware).
• Notice how Scream Tail was bullied in every game except against HO.
• Using Scream Tail is a sacrifice of the vigor and balance of one's team to be safe against HO. It's a detriment against Bulky Offense and Balance more often than not. It's so effective at beating all sorts of fishy threats that players consider it worth using nevertheless.

Will vote ban

 

[Grim_Blazer]

Please join me in banning luna, that thing is annoying

https://pokepast.es/f1b821871fb9d967

Also here's my team that I used for reqs if anyone wants it, it's amazing and I only got such an unfortunate record is because I'm only half focusing on my games lol

 

[cumps]

confirming as AAAU karma
team used
team this time was OK, a bit weak to zap especially if zama's stone edge doesn't connect. prankster twaves are cool though.

trying to keep it somewhat short. voting ban, bdrum+triage users like luna are a great example of not broken but uncompetitive. hands might have been truly broken, but I don't think anyone would argue that hariyama was. it was just overly restricting since you needed to pack a check to it or it could cheese your entire team. if you had one, it did nothing, meaning the value of yama was determined almost entirely by matchup and not at all by the user's skill in piloting it.

luna is slightly different in that bdrum+triage can more reasonably fit moves to snipe counters like scream tail, and it can also run a different ability entirely. it allows for more creativity in the builder and in-game competence (e.g. not revealing your coverage until the right moment) in that sense. however, even if it could only run one set, standard bdrum+triage is uncompetitive for same reasons that yama was. and yes, same argument applies to chesnaught and slowbro. the meta will be fine without a suspect of those two since they're just not that strong, but they remove skill from the game in the same way.

also just want to say that being a tier leader and having to balance public opinion and the policies set in place to keep tiering consistent sounds really hard and i respect and appreciate those who do it for us!

 

[Kinetic]

it only took like 5 attempts and many shed tears

anyways I'll be voting do not ban Ursaluna, but I would like to see Belly Drum banned. might write more thoughts on this later but i spent way too long on this suspect and need to clear my mind a bit

 

[PociekMociek]

i dont want to get political but what the fuck is a ursulana
thoughts maybe later.

 

[Siamato]

How to randomly lose against mere luck?

You should note that ZapG is a theoretical way to beat Ursaluna only if you're full + screens are off lol.

Voting BAN on Ursaluna. Again, Ursaluna isn't broken. I think everyone can agree on this. However, not being broken doesn't mean it shouldn't be banned.

On Ursaluna:

Ursaluna is an almost autowin or does nothing simulator. It's the pinnacle of the uncompetitive MU fish. But even though Ursaluna is useless in most cases, you have to take it into account in the builder otherwise you're at risk from just losing. Things actually dealing well with Ursaluna are quite restrictive like using an Unaware mon like Scream Tail or Cresselia (this last one is not good) or some dedicated checks like EE Skel (quite a bad mon with 0 usage and that only exists/existed due to Enam a week ago and Ursaluna now lol) that still loses to some coverage without WoW and speed.

In conclusion, Ursaluna provides nothing positive to the metagame and constitutes a very unhealthy element due to how polarized it is (autowin without requiring skill or does nothing) and due to the dumb and useless pressure it exerts on the builder. That's why it should be banned regardless of being broken. This is exactly why Hariyama took the boot and, to a lesser degree, Dragonite. Not broken due to their inconsistency but uncompetitive elements and pressure in the builder.

On Belly Drum:

I wish ban BD was possible considering that's definitely the less impactful way to sort this out considering banning Triage affects some other fine mons and we will still have Chesnaught and, later, Kommo-o, able to abuse DrumTriage. Banning Ursaluna will allow to reach the threshold from which Triage could be looked at as the main problematic element. Now for BD to become the target, we have to prove that BD makes a few mons banned AND breaks a few abilities (Unburden already, Triage maybe and something else like Quick Draw or Surge Surfer that don't really exist yet). Then, BD could be seen as the source of the issue and banned in accordance with the tiering policy to save those fine otherwise mons and abilities.
Unfortunately I know how unflexible leaders are with tiering policy even though BD is intrinsically related to this issue here and banning it will be the less invasive and harmful way to resolve it for sure. For those who want to continue this way, either you make the policy move either you need to demonstrate the points mentionned above. Good luck in any cases because that's not an easy task lol.


Please read Career Ended well crafted and good post explaining why Ursaluna should be banned. Osake, LordBox and Atha also did some good posts above that you can find quite easily. Also if we ban Ursaluna, Isaiah will be closer and closer to vote against general opinion at every suspects! Let's help him!

 

[Hpdsd]

Confirming as AAAU Ladder, I would say ban Belly Drum since its a dumb move and allows random mons with Drain Punch to steal games away but I get that Tiering Policy doesn’t allow that so will be voting BAN.
But seriously someone with badges make a policy review thread about this that move needs to go.