Sunflora and Bronzong: a deadly 2 vs. 2 combination?

I like surprising opponents. The element of surprise is a great way to turn the tide of battle in your favor during prediction wars, and Sunflora is pretty surprising, to say the least. Unfortunately, it can't really do much on its own given its low stats, but what if you were to turn those low stats into an advantage?

A couple hours of pensive thinking later, and here's the result. I realize that like any set, it has its weaknesses, but I hope that the community will try to at least understand the concept first before criticizing it. So without further ado, here's the set!

Sunflora
Nature: Quiet
Item: Focus Sash
Ability: Chlorophyll
1. Endeavor
2. Leaf Storm
3. Protect
4. Filler (I like Worry Seed, Grasswhistle, or Encore).

Bronzong
Nature: Sassy (But it still needs to be just barely faster than Sunflora!)
Item: Wide Lens
Ability: Levitate
1. Trick Room
2. Rock Slide
3. Rain Dance
4. Filler (Explosion, Gyro Ball, Hypnosis, Light Screen, or Reflect are all good choices.)

This strategy centers around the use of Endeavor. The plan is to have Sunflora take a hit, hold on with Focus Sash, and use Endeavor the very first turn (since it'll almost certainly go last with its Base 30 Speed). This will bring one opponent to 1 HP. Bronzong will use Trick Room the same turn. Next turn, under the effects of Trick Room, Sunflora will strike first and use Endeavor on the opposite opponent, leaving both adversaries with 1 HP. Immediately afterwards, Bronzong uses Rock Slide, KOing both opponents! You can do the same thing on the third turn to get at least one more kill. If all goes as planned, you'll have taken out three of the opponent's Pokemon while only having sacrificed one.

Counters (list tentative)
1. The biggest problem is that this set assumes only one Pokemon will attack Sunflora the first turn, and that it will do enough damage to leave Sunflora at 1 HP. If both opponents go after Sunflora or they both set up, Endeavor won't be very effective. The situation in which they both attack can be somewhat remedied by having an additional Pokemon on your team use a similar tactic (Aron, anyone?) because Trick Room will be up by the second turn, but only if you're playing outside of the Items Clause.

2. Ghost-types. They're even more popular in 2 vs. 2 than 1 vs. 1 due to Explosion, and they're immune to Endeavor.

3. Priority moves. Trick Room or no, if someone Aqua Jets Sunflora when it's at 1 HP, you're rather boned.

4. Sandstorm/Hail. The residual damage will finish off Sunflora once it's at 1 HP. Giving Bronzong Rain Dance helps to remedy this, but it requires prediction.

That's the gist of it. I didn't include EVs because I'm unsure of which ones to give them. Comments/feedback/suggestions are greatly appreciated.

tl;dr - Low speed + Trick Room + Endeavor = kablooie.
 

Age of Kings

of the Ash Legion
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I would use Protect the second turn to scout the opponent's moves and waste your opponent's moves. Not that that'd change much, but scouting is always good.

Nice and creative. ^_^

EDIT: For their fillers, I would try using both sleep moves just in case. Grasswhistle/Hypnosis.
 
Another counter to your list would be any Poke with Taunt. If for example a Gya Taunts your Bronzong, your strategy is ruined. But great strategy overall!
 

obi

formerly david stone
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I don't see a single reason to use Sunflora over a level 1 Smeargle. It has access to Dragon Rage if you want to be sure you can KO something, it can Perish Song in case you get them down to their last 2 Pokemon, it has Spore instead of Grasswhistle, it's at least immune to one priority move (Shadow Sneak), it can use an Extremespeed / Ice Shard of its own in case of non-Leftovers priority move users, and can pull off a variety of other garbage if need be.

Another Pokemon that's better than Sunflora is Poliwrath. It can use Hypnosis, which is more accurate than Grasswhistle, it's immune to the multi-hit move Surf, and it's immune to the priority move Aqua Jet. Doduo is immune to Shadow Sneak and the multi-target move EQ, but it doesn't have many useful moves outside of Endeavor and Quick Attack. Phanpy is immune to Sandstorm and gets Ice Shard. Aron is also immune to Sandstorm.

Another better Pokemon to use is Swampert at max level. For it, you'll want to Endure an Explosion, then you can Endeavor, and it gets Torrent Surf / Waterfall. It's also immune to Sandstorm.
 
A very similar thing was proposed back when we first got info about new items and moves and stuff, involving Rattata, except it was single battles and Rattata finished the opposing Pokemon off with Quick Attack the next turn.

It's pretty good, but chances are a good player will know what's up the second Focus Sash leaves them with 1 HP, or even the second they see the Endeavoring Pokemon, and just switch in Tyranitar/Ghost/priority. Could work over wi-fi though, where more people wouldn't expect it.

edit: Obi ya got meh. Swampert's a good possibility with this though, less predictable.
 

Bologo

Have fun with birds and bees.
is a Contributor Alumnus
I don't know, but I think that using Sunflora to endeavor in a 2v2 battle, especially with Trick Room up is a big waste of what it can actually do.

If I were using Sunflora and Bronzong together on a 2v2 team, I'd give Sunflora Sun Power as its ability, and make it hold Wise Glasses/Leftovers, but most likely Wise Glasses for that extra punch. It can protect the first turn while Bronzong Trick Rooms.

Instead of Rain Dance, I'd give Bronzong Sunny Day, then it can use that to supercharge Sunflora's already above average special attack. Sunflora can then really hurt with moves such as Hidden Power Fire and Leaf Storm off of an effective 508 special attack. It loses 12.5% each turn, but so what if it can pretty much guarantee a KO and be faster than a huge amount of pokemon after Trick Room. If you're super-duper gutsy and you think Sunflora can survive the oncoming attack(s), then give it Choice Specs and it'll have 762 special attack to abuse with Leaf Storm.

Heh, I'm not gonna lie, when I clicked on this thread, I thought you were making Sunflora abuse Sun Power since Chlorophyll would hinder it and it's not like Rain Dance will make it slower, that's just a waste of a slot.

Yeah, just like Obi said, Smeargle does the Endeavoring job much better.
 
I've seen this on Wifi, it is hideously retarded powerful, not to mention suprising.

Bronzong lead with Togekiss, using Follow Me while Bronzong sets up Trick Room w/o any Pokemon named Weavile using Fake out or Taunt it.

Second Turn, if Togekiss died, throw out Sunflora, have Bronzong use Sunny Day
and then Solar Power kicks in, Firing off 120 STAB Solarbeams with the 1.5 Boost and then Life Orb Boost.
 
The only advantage of using Sunflora over a Smeargle would be they might expect a different strategy. Despite its infinite movepool Endeavour is pretty predictable on Smeargle...
 
I don't see a single reason to use Sunflora over a level 1 Smeargle. It has access to Dragon Rage if you want to be sure you can KO something, it can Perish Song in case you get them down to their last 2 Pokemon, it has Spore instead of Grasswhistle, it's at least immune to one priority move (Shadow Sneak), it can use an Extremespeed / Ice Shard of its own in case of non-Leftovers priority move users, and can pull off a variety of other garbage if need be.

Another Pokemon that's better than Sunflora is Poliwrath. It can use Hypnosis, which is more accurate than Grasswhistle, it's immune to the multi-hit move Surf, and it's immune to the priority move Aqua Jet. Doduo is immune to Shadow Sneak and the multi-target move EQ, but it doesn't have many useful moves outside of Endeavor and Quick Attack. Phanpy is immune to Sandstorm and gets Ice Shard. Aron is also immune to Sandstorm.

Another better Pokemon to use is Swampert at max level. For it, you'll want to Endure an Explosion, then you can Endeavor, and it gets Torrent Surf / Waterfall. It's also immune to Sandstorm.
I don't know. I'm not really confident that Smeargle is slow enough to do well in Trick Room, and besides, most players know that Smeargle always has some sneaky moveset and will take precautions. Also, Poliwrath and Swampert have good defenses, so they have to Endure to get down to 1 HP. However, using Endure means having one less turn to use Endeavor. Phanpy and Aron aren't bad, but whenever someone uses an unevolved Pokemon against me, I know that they want me to attack it, so I usually use a stat-upping move or something and see what they do first. Since Sunflora is fully evolved, it's not as obvious. Thanks for the input though.

Bologo, Rain Dance is there to change the weather in case Abomnasnow, Tyranitar, or Hippowdon is brought in, but yeah, maybe it's not the most productive move...

You know, I discovered that Porygon 2 and Marowak can use a pretty similar strategy, with Porygon 2 using Discharge after it uses Trick Room, and Marowak being able to do other stuff besides Endeavor. There's also the added advantage of Marowak being immune to Sandstorm, but the drawback is that some Pokemon are immune to Discharge (whereas nothing is immune to Rock Slide).
 
Why not use Sunny Day in tandem with Sunflora's Solar Power. It hits a lot harder , but of course, Sunflora dies faster too, but it's a Sunflora.
 
I think Sunflora's unexpectedness is really critical here. If you see a level 1 Smeargle, you're probably going to attack it twice expecting a sash. Poliwrath and Swampert are likewise too bulky to pull this off ideally (especially pert). It actually seems pretty cool, but if their leads gang up on and kill Bronzong you're kinda screwed.
 

obi

formerly david stone
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Heh. I guess after AA's post I ought to say another strategy I've been thinking of. Lead with level 1 Smeargle and Life Orb Dragon Dance Salamence or Dragonite or something. If they gang up on Smeargle, they give you a free DD, then you just send out Helping Hand Togekiss or whatever and use Earthquake (alternately Follow Me and use Garchomp over Salamence). If they decide to hit Salamence with an Ice Beam or something, you can Endeavor or Spore or Trick Room with Smeargle, and then send out Follow Me <Pokemon> to replace Salamence and just try to sweep with Endeavor. I'd probably use Dragon Dance, Endure, Earthquake, Dragon Claw / Stone Edge / Rock Slide (got to hit those Fliers!), Endure @ Liechi / Salac or Protect / Lum Berry / Leftovers in case someone tries to be funny with Explosion.

Earthquake's reduced power might make it not worth it, though.
 
I don't know. I'm not really confident that Smeargle is slow enough to do well in Trick Room, and besides, most players know that Smeargle always has some sneaky moveset and will take precautions. Also, Poliwrath and Swampert have good defenses, so they have to Endure to get down to 1 HP. However, using Endure means having one less turn to use Endeavor. Phanpy and Aron aren't bad, but whenever someone uses an unevolved Pokemon against me, I know that they want me to attack it, so I usually use a stat-upping move or something and see what they do first. Since Sunflora is fully evolved, it's not as obvious. Thanks for the input though.

Bologo, Rain Dance is there to change the weather in case Abomnasnow, Tyranitar, or Hippowdon is brought in, but yeah, maybe it's not the most productive move...

You know, I discovered that Porygon 2 and Marowak can use a pretty similar strategy, with Porygon 2 using Discharge after it uses Trick Room, and Marowak being able to do other stuff besides Endeavor. There's also the added advantage of Marowak being immune to Sandstorm, but the drawback is that some Pokemon are immune to Discharge (whereas nothing is immune to Rock Slide).

Haha, it is always nice to defend yourself, but you are very wrong. A 0 IV brave natured smeargle could have around the high 100's, which in your case a 2v2 would have 2 speedy sweepers most likely on the opposing side.
 

obi

formerly david stone
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Level 1 Smeargle has 5 Speed. For comparison, Shuckle has 4 Speed at level 1. In fact, anything faster than Unown will either be as fast as or faster than Smeargle (except for level 1 dudes with an Iron Orb).

And when I said Poliwrath, I meant to say Poliwag at level 1.
 
If there's one thing I wanna point out, it's that this seems to get screwed by an opposing Trick Room team; once TR is up, Slowbro/king, Bronzong, hell, even Shuckle can ruin your plan, I would imagine.

Also, your plan fails if Bronzong gets killed or incapacitated first turn; some said Fake Out and Taunt, but there's also Hypnosis, Freezing, Confusion, so many other things.

Also seems like moves attacking both opponents will ruin you. CS Typhlosion looks like it would plow right through you, as well as Hail teams sporting Blizzard, Pokemon w/Discharge or Rock Slide, and so on.

Quite honestly, I think the only thing this lead has going for it is surprise. It can easily be stopped in so many ways, and it doesn't seem like you could possibly get a second shot at this.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top