Sprocket
P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
Fair enough. I keep forgetting about that damn thing.
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Stealth Rock Discussion
- Thread starter cornYBird
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It is not the move itself, it's the attitude around it that grinds my gears at times.
For example when I was still a rookie battler in 07-08, more times than not people never took my teams seriously or even bothered to look them over ONLY because I did not have Stealth Rock on at least one of my pokemon, there were other times I was using pokemon who were weak to SR and kicking butt with them, and they told me if i did not abide by thier logic and ditch the pokemon my team would fail as well, Charizard being the most notable case.
I wonder if the day came for me to make an RMT here, (which will probably be a long time as you gotta have pics.) people would say the same thing.
also,I did point out a what if situation and you are right it probably won't happen but that's all it was, an opinion.
so these are your examples???
scyther and articuno???
'cause i can tell you easily 10 pokes that fail to see some usage(for ou standarts) 'cause of sr...
moltres,arcanine,yanmega,togekiss,salamence,weavile,abomasnow,crobat,froslass,staraptor!and that is only for ou.
there are many nu pokes that would have been good in uu if it wasn't for their sr weakness...
so the conclusion my friend is that in your teambuilding proccess you don't choose sr weak pokes(on average)except if they are very good or you give them the right support...
the fact that sr cuts 25% or 50% of their life is enough reason to make them less usable than other pokes which is severely minimizing the options we have for available pokemons....
that's why i think that sr should get a serious nerf so it won't deal so much damage to pokemons weak to it...
well all this is pure theorymon as i don't think that gamefreak cares about balancing the competitive metagame more than making money so i am just telling my hopes...
I think earthquake should be banned because it's too powerful and really shapes the metagame.
Seriously though, entry hazards to hit flying stuff is kinda needed, because, well, there are supposed to be hazards upon entry. That includes flyers. I presume they make it Stealth ROCK (vs Stealth Water or whatever) because it would punish fliers like they weren't being punished in G3, and because Rock needs some presence, what with people needing to use Stone Miss or 75BP Rock Slide for rock type coverage.
Seriously though, entry hazards to hit flying stuff is kinda needed, because, well, there are supposed to be hazards upon entry. That includes flyers. I presume they make it Stealth ROCK (vs Stealth Water or whatever) because it would punish fliers like they weren't being punished in G3, and because Rock needs some presence, what with people needing to use Stone Miss or 75BP Rock Slide for rock type coverage.
Sprocket
P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
Maybe in Gen 5 Togekiss isn't OU (we don't have usage statistics), but it sure as hell was in gen 4. Same with Salamence (prior to its ban), Yanmega, and Weavile. All despite 25-50% Stealth Rock Damage.
Abomasnow, Crobat, Froslass, and Staraptor were BL because they were too powerful for UU and NU, but were all fairly outclassed (to a degree) by other Pokemon. I rarely saw Arcanine because it was outclassed by Heatran in most cases. You still occasionally saw these Pokemon in OU battles (Lead Crobat, Abomasnow for the permanent Hail, Froslass to take advantage of Hail, etc).
You're also ignoring Gen 4 OU Pokemon that are stealth rock weak: Dragonite, Gyarados, Ninjask, and Zapdos. Despite taking 25% damage from Stealth Rocks, Dragonite, Gyarados, and Zapdos are all fearsome Pokemon that can wreck teams in Gen 4 OU if left unchecked, and also act as powerful walls. Dragonite and Zapdos also have the advantage of being able to Roost off damage.
Abomasnow, Crobat, Froslass, and Staraptor were BL because they were too powerful for UU and NU, but were all fairly outclassed (to a degree) by other Pokemon. I rarely saw Arcanine because it was outclassed by Heatran in most cases. You still occasionally saw these Pokemon in OU battles (Lead Crobat, Abomasnow for the permanent Hail, Froslass to take advantage of Hail, etc).
You're also ignoring Gen 4 OU Pokemon that are stealth rock weak: Dragonite, Gyarados, Ninjask, and Zapdos. Despite taking 25% damage from Stealth Rocks, Dragonite, Gyarados, and Zapdos are all fearsome Pokemon that can wreck teams in Gen 4 OU if left unchecked, and also act as powerful walls. Dragonite and Zapdos also have the advantage of being able to Roost off damage.
How do you outclass a perma-Hail starter and a fast, offensive threat with Intimidate and powerful Flying/Fighting coverage?
Not to mention Yanmega and Weavile were definitely on the more neglected side of OU.
Stealth Rock is just another part of the game, and people will need to accept that. It may hinder various pokemon to the point of being unviable (though if the pokemon is good enough to be OU, you should be willing to invest the MM / Spin support required), but it also checks top threats.
I for one do not want to see Salamence and Volcarona coming freely in as they please - you need to work for that if you want it that badly. There are plenty of pokemon that still make OU despite being Stealth Rock weak.
The only change I would make is to disregard multiple resists/weaknesses. For example, both Salamence and Articuno would lose 25%, while Excadrill and Hippowdon would lose 6% alike. All other pokemon would lose 12%.
I for one do not want to see Salamence and Volcarona coming freely in as they please - you need to work for that if you want it that badly. There are plenty of pokemon that still make OU despite being Stealth Rock weak.
The only change I would make is to disregard multiple resists/weaknesses. For example, both Salamence and Articuno would lose 25%, while Excadrill and Hippowdon would lose 6% alike. All other pokemon would lose 12%.
Sprocket
P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
Abomasnow, for all it's awesomeness in setting up permanent Hail, also has some debilitating weaknesses (4x weakness to Fire, 2x weakness to Steel and Fighting, mediocre movepool and average stats). And as for Staraptor, Zapdos resists Flying/Fighting, and OHKOs in response with Thunderbolt.
It could be inexperience, but I don't see how being a counter is considered out-classing? Would you mind explaining the reasoning behind this?Sprocket said:
i wasn't telling that all of the 10 pokes i mentioned weren't ou i just gave you some examples of pokes that haven't seen much usage 'cause of sr.
and of course i am reffering to 5th gen...which gen do we play?have you seen many salamences,weaviles or yanmegas in ou?
and in all the bl pokes that i have mentioned sr was a detrimental factor in their tier placement...
stop saying for every poke that isn't ou that it is outclassed...
and all of these pokes have other flaws indeed but to me the biggest flaw every poke could have is losing 25% or 50% of it's life upon switching in...
the point i am making is that sr punishes rock weak pokes too much...
the fact that spikes and t-spikes dont affect fliers doesn't mean that there should be an entry hazard that takes away 25% of their life...the damage dealt is way too much.
a simple nerf would make sr much more balanced for the metagame...
i am not proposing a nerf in simulators i am just saying that i want gamefreak to eventually nerf it...
thats what i am saying more or less...
here is my damage for sr:
1% for 4x resists
6,25% for 2x resists
12,5% for neutrals
18,5% for 2x weaks
25% for 4x weaks
Yes, but how is it outclassed? There is literally nothing else that can do its niche better, because well, nothing else COULD do its niche, aside from poor ol' Snover.
Nonetheless, it was still quite an offensive presence, and could easily abuse U-turn and Intimidate if it hadn't been limited to 4- switches per match.
I see plenty of Salamences in OU, PLENTY. Also, SR has not deterred me from running a nonlead yanmega, and yanmega does just fine. I still see a fair amount of togekisses though not as many as before but I don't see why SR would change that in this gen. Rachi makes a better flincher w/ every fighter having stone edge/rockslide for coverage. I haven't seen any weaviles but I REALLY doubt the reason is SR. People plays zapdos and mence like crazy and they share the same SR weakness.
I personally despise Stealth Rock more for the type descrimination than anything else.Four types (Bug/Fire/Flying/Ice) are automatically at a disadvantage just because of the existance of Stealth Rock.If you read any of the analysis pages on a Pokemon of these types you will notice "Weakness to SR" as a major deterent to these Pokemon and the phrase "Needs a Spinner" is thrown around a lot.Just to show how much Stealth Rock has had an effect on the usefulness of certain Pokes,heres a rundown of Rock weak Pokemon in Gen 3:
3RD GEN
OU 6
BL 14
UU 14
NU 21
Compared to:
4TH GEN
OU 6
BL 6
UU 7
NU 51
Almost any SR weak Pokemon has a tendency to fall towards the NU/UU tiers.Now I know there are other factors (Ice types having to face Close Combat as an example) but I think it would have to be an awfully big coincidence that that many Pokemon just happened to fall from grace in one generation.
The 25% it chips off also makes any type of defensive play extremely hard for any of these Pokes.How can a Flying type hope to repeatedly come in on a resisted Fighting move and deal with SR?Even ignoring Pokemon that are weak to it, how many times since Diamond and Pearl were released have you seen the phrase "Its a OHKO after Rocks" or "Its a 2HKO after Rocks."Stealth Rock has helped in the creation of an agressive game when combined with the new higher powered moves.
That's how I feel about it.I mean,look at the number of Pokemon negatively affected:
Bug 35 (including all 3 wormadam)
Fire 26
Flying 52
Ice 19
All of those are fully evolved or legendary and I did not sort out the crossovers (as such Charizard is counted as 1 Fire and 1 Flying).Now some are crossed with types that counter there SR weakness (Heatran and Gliscor immediatly come to mind) but there also several that are mixed together and immediatly take half their health as damage just because of typing?For a move that can be put on the field in one turn?
Stealth Rock has only one counter once its put on the field and thats Rapid Spin.A base 20 Normal move.I'm sorry but isn't one of the big complaints about evasion is that most never miss moves are base 60 power?Those moves can also get STAB and Technician boosts as well as possibley being super effective.So why is it OK to say a 20 power move that can be completely walled by ghosts is a fine counter to this move?
Some people say to just not let it get on the field.That's a bad reason in my opinion as to why the move isn't overpowered.You have Taunt and Magic Coat/Bounce to prevent its set up.At one point or another in a given match,an opponent can have a SR user out (after all,it has a wide distribution) while you do not have a Taunt user or a Pokemon with one of the Magic options.So you have to switch in a Magic Mirror Pokemon (restricted to Xatu/Espeon) to stop it.
The move has centralized the game since it came into existance.It single handedly created suicide leads who's job was to get your Rocks up while stopping theirs.Thats a big change for a single move that isn't overpowered isn't it?
All said though,I don't think SR is going to be banned so I and many others are just going to have to keep dealing with it.
TLDR version: I hate SR and find it way overpowered but it will probably never be banned for I have no clue why.
3RD GEN
OU 6
BL 14
UU 14
NU 21
Compared to:
4TH GEN
OU 6
BL 6
UU 7
NU 51
Almost any SR weak Pokemon has a tendency to fall towards the NU/UU tiers.Now I know there are other factors (Ice types having to face Close Combat as an example) but I think it would have to be an awfully big coincidence that that many Pokemon just happened to fall from grace in one generation.
The 25% it chips off also makes any type of defensive play extremely hard for any of these Pokes.How can a Flying type hope to repeatedly come in on a resisted Fighting move and deal with SR?Even ignoring Pokemon that are weak to it, how many times since Diamond and Pearl were released have you seen the phrase "Its a OHKO after Rocks" or "Its a 2HKO after Rocks."Stealth Rock has helped in the creation of an agressive game when combined with the new higher powered moves.
That's how I feel about it.I mean,look at the number of Pokemon negatively affected:
Bug 35 (including all 3 wormadam)
Fire 26
Flying 52
Ice 19
All of those are fully evolved or legendary and I did not sort out the crossovers (as such Charizard is counted as 1 Fire and 1 Flying).Now some are crossed with types that counter there SR weakness (Heatran and Gliscor immediatly come to mind) but there also several that are mixed together and immediatly take half their health as damage just because of typing?For a move that can be put on the field in one turn?
Stealth Rock has only one counter once its put on the field and thats Rapid Spin.A base 20 Normal move.I'm sorry but isn't one of the big complaints about evasion is that most never miss moves are base 60 power?Those moves can also get STAB and Technician boosts as well as possibley being super effective.So why is it OK to say a 20 power move that can be completely walled by ghosts is a fine counter to this move?
Some people say to just not let it get on the field.That's a bad reason in my opinion as to why the move isn't overpowered.You have Taunt and Magic Coat/Bounce to prevent its set up.At one point or another in a given match,an opponent can have a SR user out (after all,it has a wide distribution) while you do not have a Taunt user or a Pokemon with one of the Magic options.So you have to switch in a Magic Mirror Pokemon (restricted to Xatu/Espeon) to stop it.
The move has centralized the game since it came into existance.It single handedly created suicide leads who's job was to get your Rocks up while stopping theirs.Thats a big change for a single move that isn't overpowered isn't it?
All said though,I don't think SR is going to be banned so I and many others are just going to have to keep dealing with it.
TLDR version: I hate SR and find it way overpowered but it will probably never be banned for I have no clue why.
@Dragon
It won't be banned and in your post you have said the main reasons as to why it won't be.
Taunt
Magic Coat and Bounce
Rapid Spin
and if I am not mistaken you have forgotten about defog which also removes all entry hazards (although the possibilty of having it bounced back via magic coat) which unlike rapid spin can not be blocked by a ghost.
So yes stealth rock might be annoying but if you want to use pokemon weak to it bring somebody that can remove it from the field before you bring said pokemon out.
It won't be banned and in your post you have said the main reasons as to why it won't be.
Taunt
Magic Coat and Bounce
Rapid Spin
and if I am not mistaken you have forgotten about defog which also removes all entry hazards (although the possibilty of having it bounced back via magic coat) which unlike rapid spin can not be blocked by a ghost.
So yes stealth rock might be annoying but if you want to use pokemon weak to it bring somebody that can remove it from the field before you bring said pokemon out.
Oh.I forgot Defog.Don't really see it much so it must have slipped my mind.
I have no illusion that Stealth Rock will be banned, but I don't understand why 4/17 types are put at an instant disadvantage because of the move.Like you said, if I want to repeatedly switch in a Pokemon like Zapdos I have to get rid of Rocks since I keep loosing a quarter each time.However, something like Excadrill or Garchomp can bounce in and out without as much care just because they don't have one of those 4 types.
EDIT:Doesn't Defog get rid of the hazards you have set up while leaving the opponent's?
Actually yes always get that muddled up (probably because I don't understand such a pointless move)
All in all stealth rocks will remain but I can understand your frustration.
I enjoy Moltres but I always have to make sure he is on a team with a spinner.
That being said it's frustrating having to wait until the coast is clear to bring out a pokemon.
All in all stealth rocks will remain but I can understand your frustration.
I enjoy Moltres but I always have to make sure he is on a team with a spinner.
That being said it's frustrating having to wait until the coast is clear to bring out a pokemon.
I'm glad someone gets it.The very fact that some Pokes become 10x harder to use just because of an entry hazard that takes one turn to use is just very annoying.I would probably hate SR alot less if it affected everything the same like Toxic/Spikes do.But Rocks are here and we have to deal with it.
Being a player on g4 and some kind of analytical type player, i thing stealth rock is only bringing a great effect in the meta. Yes flying is weak but that doesnt really stop me from using moltres and Gyarados and Dnite for all i want. I also like the fact that with SR you have a limited chance to switch in which is a great thing to have.
I mean if pokemon is just a bunch of predict switch predict switch game, it isnt too interesting. The time limit factor SR or hazzard in general gives is one of the most interesting and most enjoyable part in the meta tbh
I mean if pokemon is just a bunch of predict switch predict switch game, it isnt too interesting. The time limit factor SR or hazzard in general gives is one of the most interesting and most enjoyable part in the meta tbh
@JSND
Exactly.
It adds dimension to the game. Sure if I'm going to bring my Moltres in with rocks on the field I have to think carefully about when I do or it's just a wasted pokemon, whereas without rocks I could do it whenever.
Sure sometimes it's frustrating but it's the good kind of 'frustrating'.
Exactly.
It adds dimension to the game. Sure if I'm going to bring my Moltres in with rocks on the field I have to think carefully about when I do or it's just a wasted pokemon, whereas without rocks I could do it whenever.
Sure sometimes it's frustrating but it's the good kind of 'frustrating'.
What can I say but it is what it is. You can speculate all you want, but SR exists and it would create a very strange new metagame if it were to be removed, Who knows, it might actually be a WORSE metagame. I don't think any of us want a game where switching goes completely unpunished for airborne 'mons.
I don't think it would be a worse metagame not to say it wouldn't be different.
But also not everybody uses Stealth Rocks, only about Sixty Five percent of my teams use it.
Also in Gen five only Two useful pokemon learn it (Gigalith) the other (Ferrothorn).
Compare this to the amazing amount of pokemon in gen four that could learn it. This may mean that if people want Stealth Rocks on a lead it's most likely going to be one we already know and in turn know how to counter. This really had no point to it except to highlight the fact that it was neither boosted or nerfed with the onset of the gen Five meta game.
To all those arguing against SR because it causes so much harm to 4 types after only "one turn of setup": you do know that the flipside is, it only takes "one turn of setup" to get rid of them? Or better yet, run Magic Coat and get your own SR! Or better yet, run Espeon or Xatu and eliminate those nasty pebbles that give your Charizard boo boos without any effort!
And if you say "BAWWW DAT MEANS I HAVE TO RUN A SPINNER SPECIFICALLY TO GET RID OF SR'ZZ" well, the opponent has to specifically run a pokemon to set up the rocks in the first place so it cancels out.
And if you say "BAWWW DAT MEANS I HAVE TO RUN A SPINNER SPECIFICALLY TO GET RID OF SR'ZZ" well, the opponent has to specifically run a pokemon to set up the rocks in the first place so it cancels out.
Plus Why not run a spinner that can set up your own stealth rocks. Claydol or Donphan for example.
Ah sorry, I was not talking about you, but about the guy above my post.
I never ventured for too long in the RMT forums, but I'm sure people would tell you to either ditch Charizard or do something to avoid Stealth Rock, and rightfully so. It's not that you needed to use Stealth Rock back in Gen IV (you'd need something to at least break random Sashes, though, and Charizard wouldn't like Sandstorm), but you had to take its existence into account. RMT is a subforum for competitive rating, so you will always have people telling you to use a better, competitive option; if you don't want to use SR then fine, people will give you advice without mentioning SR (or doing so if they really feel you need it for some reason). And about using Charizard and people telling you're going to fail... Well, it's because Stealth Rock is a top-used move. Just like using a Rock/Ground pokémon. Did you have any way to stop it from being set-up? I know it was lol Gen IV, but still. Using a SR-weak pokémon such as Charizard and not having a workaround for SR would be like using Rhyperior and having no pokémon in your team to deal with Bulky Waters, or at the very least, Sandstorm.
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