Stat-Up Moves!

[November Blue]

I've been thinking about the effects of Thundurus' passing, and Nasty Plot in general.

Nasty Plot increases the users Special Attack stat by +2, which effectively doubles the stat. Its distribution is rather poor, sadly, having no TM or tutor.

Thundurus' best set was the offensive Nasty Plotter. Life Orb, HP Ice and Focus Blast, sometimes Grass Knot, sometimes Thunder Wave. Many people considered it broken. What I find strange though, is how unexpectedly successful Thundy was. So much so that it was banned. Think about it; Thundurus is Stealth Rock weak, held a Life Orb, and had little bulk. Plenty of Pokemon are immune to its Electric STAB, and Thundurus' coverage moves were somewhat weak prior to a boost. It excelled in the face of trends which say that it shouldn't.

There are only four Nasty Plot users commonly seen in OU: Celebi, Lucario, Infernape and Ninetales. Of those, Celebi is the only one who commonly uses the move. Offensive stat boosters are a dying breed. Bulky offense (-ive boosters) and defensive features are becoming more and more common. The most common boosting Pokemon are used - and find success - because they have notable defensive traits. Take Celebi, for example. It has an effective blend of offense and defense, i.e. useful resistances and bulk, Natural Cure, Giga Drain and Recover alongside good offensive stats, Nasty Plot and effective use of Life Orb. It has the defenses, resistances and Speed to nab a free turn, (fairly safely) and sweep the opponent. If something disastrous happens, the sprout has the means to fix it without team support. Or how about Dragonite? DD sets are defensive too, commonly running Multiscale, Roost and/or Substitute. In fact, almost every successful stat booster in OU is defensively oriented. SD Gliscor, Bulk Up / Dragon Dance Scrafty, Toxicroak, SubCM Latias / Jirachi, Reuniclus, Conkeldurr... Compare that to the list of purely offensive boosters: Excadrill, Thundurus, Terrakion, Gyarados and Haxorus.

Interestingly, this trend seems to be native to Gen V. Garchomps SubSD set wasn't nearly as popular last gen, even though Skarmory has always been around to wall it. Look at the surging popularity of Substitute on Swords / Dragon Dancers. Look how popular Lum Berry is on DDers. Offensive boosting is becoming flat out nonviable.

The question is, what is causing this? Power Creep? Offensive Rain? Stall tactics and status? Does a Pokemon really have to be top OU to pull off a boosting set? What makes a good booster?



Bleh, I'm always unhappy with posts like this. They never read smoothly. Anyway, discuss!

 

[NijaSkills]

I think the main issue here is that the offensive stat-boosters will never find an opportunity to set up, since even the walls this generation have offensive presence, and priority is common enough that a frail boosting sweeper needs to have a significant amount of HP left in order to survive that potential priority hit. Many of the 'mons that can (read: Blaziken, Garchomp, Darkrai, Manaphy, Excadrill, Thunderus), were banned for being overpowered. Also, before its ban, Excadrill curbstomped Heavy Offence (the premier team style to use Offensive Boosters) so hard that it became almost unviable.

However, it's not totally dead. Including the ones you mentioned, I'd also add Lucario, Salamence, Virizion, and Volcarona to the list, all of which are near unsurpassable threats to an unprepared team.

 

[Nix_Hex]

(JT Swift, you forgot Toxicroak)

So is this thread about Nasty Plot or just boosting attackers in general? Of the four you (NijaSkills) listed, only one gets Nasty Plot and isn't an example of a defensive Pokemon with stat boosting moves. I believe JT Swift made this thread to discuss Nasty Plot and we're already off topic by post 2.

The thing about Nasty Plot in comparison to a single boosting move like Calm Mind is not only its low distribution, but the fact that it is distributed to Pokemon who are either frail, slow, priority-weak, or a combination of the three. Let's go through a list of what I'm speaking of: powerful boosters who just aren't effective.

Lucario: slow, priority weak (but has a neat STAB Vacuum Wave to somewhat make up for it)
Toxicroak: frail, slow (also has STAB Vacuum Wave)
Zoroark: fast, but frail and priority weak
Porygon-Z: lol, slow, frail, priority weak (ouchie)

Now, a completely viable Pokemon that is UU but occasionally seen in OU is Mew. It gets excellent coverage moves, Psyshock (along with every TM of course), Taunt, and Rock Polish, meaning it can Baton Pass two double boosts when played correctly. Its opponents won't like getting hit back by their own status moves after Synchronize, namely poison or burn; a Nasty Plot Mew won't mind the former (it won't be staying in long) or the latter, for obvious reasons.

 

[Chinese Dood]

Lucario: slow, priority weak
Toxicroak: frail, slow (but has a neat STAB Vacuum Wave to somewhat make up for it)

Lucario gets Vacuum Wave too and is a bit faster than croak.

 

[Matthew]

I'd be much happier if you made this just a "stat-up" thread rather than just Nasty Plot.

That being said:

I love stat-up moves more than anything in pokemon. They're truly amazing to me. Obviously I find the best stat-up move to be Quiver Dance, since unlike Shell Smash there are literally 0 side effects to the +1/+1/+1. If Quiver Dance was given to another pokemon outside of Volcarona (the best user of said move); it would almost be unstoppable (if it doesn't have that nasty SR weakness). NP Luke is something I've wanted to use more, but Extremespeed is stronger than STAB Vacuum Wave (iirc); plus physical has always been more potent than special since Blissey (and to a latter extent, Chansey) has been around.

 

[locoghoul]

Azelf comes to mind. The thing is that in GenIV everyone was obsessed with suicide lead Azelf, plus you had things like Scizor and ScarfTar to worry about. But really, if Blissey comes into Azelf when he used NP, unless Blissey has Twave, Azelf can destroy her with another NP followed by Psyshock or Psychic.

 

[The Rock]

NP Luke is something I've wanted to use more, but Extremespeed is stronger than STAB Vacuum Wave (iirc); plus physical has always been more potent than special since Blissey (and to a latter extent, Chansey) has been around.

Modest LO +2 Aura Sphere 2HKO's Blissey (and maybe Chansey, but I don't know for sure. Blissey is more common, anyway).

Lucario just really needs to worry about things like landorus, Tornadus, Virizion, Starmie (Rain/Specs Hydro Pump), Deoxys-S (with Superpower) and other pokes that are faster, can take a Vacuum Wave and can OHKO him. I can't think of any walls that stand much of a chance. Also, that list gets kinda raped by Scarf Terrakion or ScarfTar.

Actually, now that I think about it... There are A LOT of fast pokes that can take a Vacuum Wave. Hmph.

 

[Onicon]

With Excadrill gone NP Lucario have lost its reason. Terrakion could be OHKOed outside of sandstorm with +2 LO Vacuum Wave, but it only does 72.8% - 87% in sand, while Vacuum Wave has a lot more resistance in the upper tier.
Fine, I'll go with SD Luce.

 

[august]

Just throwing it out there, but Swords Dance Lucario, Quiver Dance Volc, CM Latios, and CM/Swords Dance Virizion are also pure offensive stat boosters that you haven't mentioned. Swords Dance Toxicroak is also generally purely offensive, I don't recall running into Bulky Swords Dance Toxicroak recently. If you take those into account, the lists are about even. I don't think pure offensive boosting is dead at all, its just not super common like it may have been last generation

 

[xMistyx]

Azelf comes to mind. The thing is that in GenIV everyone was obsessed with suicide lead Azelf, plus you had things like Scizor and ScarfTar to worry about. But really, if Blissey comes into Azelf when he used NP, unless Blissey has Twave, Azelf can destroy her with another NP followed by Psyshock or Psychic.

I'm going to second this. Often I would mistake a Nasty Plot Azelf for one of the suicide nature, which in turn would generally be a game changing mistake.

and also, in relation to Mew. Smeargle comes to mind.

 

[NoUserName]

I'm going to second this. Often I would mistake a Nasty Plot Azelf for one of the suicide nature, which in turn would generally be a game changing mistake.

and also, in relation to Mew. Smeargle comes to mind.

Tail Glow Smeargle comes to mind.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

The thing about Nasty Plot in comparison to a single boosting move like Calm Mind is not only its low distribution, but the fact that it is distributed to Pokemon who are either frail, slow, priority-weak, or a combination of the three. Let's go through a list of what I'm speaking of: powerful boosters who just aren't effective.

Get rid of them before setting up?

You shouldn't be setting up Nasty Plot with Zoroark when your opponent still has their Conkeldurr or Scizor or whatever running around. That should go without saying.

 

[JellyOs]

Well if you look at the successful SD's out there it becomes obvious why Celebi is the most used.
SD: Lucario, Scizor, Infernape, Terrakion, Garchomp, Virizion, Toxicroak, Gliscor, Excadrill, Blaziken.
Now compare how many get SD and usable to NP users and are useable
NP: Lucario, Togekiss, Azelf, Thundurus, Ninetails, Celebi, Infernape, Mew.
8 out of 38 Pokemon with Nasty Plot are viable. 10 out of 87 with SD are viable, what does this say? (only fully evolved Pokemon were counted). You need bulk or priority to effectively raise only an offensive stat without speed. Nearly all pokemon that get Nasty Plot are incredibly frail, and the only one out of 3 bulky NP users are situated for the OU metagame (NP Toxicroak isn't counted as bulky), Celebi. The others (Lucario, Infernape, Toxicroak) that are commonly seen only succeed because of their access to the only special priority move, Vaccuum Wave (with STAB). This is why I think the amount of single-stat boosting pokemon, and Nasty-Plotters) is declining.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

I hate to sound ignorant, but is there any other good qualities on Nasty Plot Lucario other than the fact that it can hit certain counters harder than the Swords Dance set? I mean, with Nasty Plot and Vacuum Wave, KOing Terrakion is nice and all, but even before the Excadrill ban, you had more important things to worry about, mainly Landorus and Thundurus (both of which are promptly KO'd by +2 Extremespeed). +2 Life Orb Aura Sphere doesn't even come close to KOing Specially Defensive Jirachi (70% - 82.7%), while Balloon +2 Close Combat actually has a high chance to do so (94.6% - 111.4%). That's one annoying thing out of the way.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Well if you look at the successful SD's out there it becomes obvious why Celebi is the most used.
SD: Lucario, Scizor, Infernape, Terrakion, Garchomp, Virizion, Toxicroak, Gliscor, Excadrill, Blaziken.
Now compare how many get SD and usable to NP users and are useable
NP: Lucario, Togekiss, Azelf, Thundurus, Ninetails, Celebi, Infernape, Mew.
8 out of 38 Pokemon with Nasty Plot are viable. 10 out of 87 with SD are viable, what does this say? (only fully evolved Pokemon were counted). You need bulk or priority to effectively raise only an offensive stat without speed. Nearly all pokemon that get Nasty Plot are incredibly frail, and the only one out of 3 bulky NP users are situated for the OU metagame (NP Toxicroak isn't counted as bulky), Celebi. The others (Lucario, Infernape, Toxicroak) that are commonly seen only succeed because of their access to the only special priority move, Vaccuum Wave (with STAB). This is why I think the amount of single-stat boosting pokemon, and Nasty-Plotters) is declining.

Celebi is the most used for the sole reason that it's one of the few viable answers to rain.

And NP Zoroark is viable in OU, this is coming from someone who has used it. It's actually a good set, as long as you remember the most important thing: never ever ever ever ever lead with Zoroark!

Also, out of all of the Nasty Plot users, only two are difficult to wall: Zoroark and Mew. (I'm not counting Thundurus since it's Uber)

NP Mew has one solid counter: Quagsire. Scizor, Conkeldurr, and Hitmontop can handle Zoroark.
If you ask me, even a lot of the viable Swords Dance users are priority weak. At the moment, there are 3 SD users that can actually be used (SD Scizor sucks): Lucario, Terrakion, and Landorus.

Lucario is weak to Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave.
Terrakion is weak to Bullet Punch and Mach Punch.
Landorus is weak to Ice Shard.

The Pokemon who can learn both moves have some pretty big downsides. That's why you get Pokemon that can handle them. You have six Pokemon on your team, not one.

Edit: lol brain fart...

Also, I'd like to say that SD Lucario can get past a few of its checks by simply using Bullet Punch over Crunch. Gliscor still walls it though.

 

[JellyOs]

Celebi is the most used for the sole reason that it's one of the few viable answers to rain.

False. Without HP Fire Celebi lacks crucial coverage, and cannot hit many members of rain teams with Grass + Earth Power Coverage (Ferrothorn, Tornadus, Dragonite, Toxicroak can switch in on your Grass and mutilate you). You could argue to use Grass and HP Water but you still lack Dragonite and the more important Toxicroak (Along with having a very tough time of beating Jirachi). So yea, Celebi isn't used for beating Rain, it's used for its niche as a bulky NP'er.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

False. Without HP Fire Celebi lacks crucial coverage, and cannot hit many members of rain teams with Grass + Earth Power Coverage (Ferrothorn, Tornadus, Dragonite, Toxicroak can switch in on your Grass and mutilate you). You could argue to use Grass and HP Water but you still lack Dragonite and the more important Toxicroak (Along with having a very tough time of beating Jirachi). So yea, Celebi isn't used for beating Rain, it's used for its niche as a bulky NP'er.

No matter what move Celebi uses for its second coverage move, it's going to get walled by something.

I dunno about you, but it's a lot easier to wall Celebi than it is to wall Lucario.

Also, a bulky NPer that gets forced out by Dragonite, who can then get a free turn of set-up? No thanks.

 

[Nix_Hex]

Lucario: slow, priority weak (but has a neat STAB Vacuum Wave to somewhat make up for it) 90 base speed isn't slow
Toxicroak: frail, slow (also has STAB Vacuum Wave)way more bulky than you give it credit for because of its key resistances
Zoroark: fast, but frail and priority weak
Porygon-Z: lol, slow, frail, priority weak (ouchie) there is nothing "lol" about it. You're not funny. its defenses are average, not poor, and it's definitely not slow

I'm not loling at myself, I'm loling at Porygon-Z's usage and the fact that I even listed it. Now, let's see how not slow Porygon-Z/Luke are.

692 / Terrakion / 108 / +Spe / 252 / 2
690 / Ninjask / 160 / +Spe / 252 / 1
662 / Landorus / 101 / +Spe / 252 / 2
630 / Terrakion / 108 / Neutral / 252 / 2
619 / Ninjask / 160 / +Spe / 80 / 1
604 / Excadrill / 88 / +Spe / 252 / 2
602 / Landorus / 101 / Neutral / 252 / 2
558 / Lucario, Porygon-Z** / 90 / Neutral / 252 / 2
550 / Excadrill / 88 / Neutral / 252 / 2
525 / Latios* / 110 / +Spe / 252 / 1
519 / Terrakion / 108 / +Spe / 252 / 1
518 / Venusaur** / 80 / Neutral / 252 / 2
510 / Sawsbuck / 95 / Neutral / 116 / 2
508 / Mienshao / 105 / +Spe / 252 / 1
TIER 1 (>Max Spe Base 130–Max Spe Deoxys-S)
504 / Deoxys-S / 180 / +Spe / 252 / 0
500 / Cloyster, Metagross / 70 / +Spe / 208 / 2
500 / Deoxys-S / 180 / +Spe / 236 / 0
498 / Kingdra / 85 / Neutral / 172 / 2
496 / Landorus / 101 / +Spe / 252 / 1
492 / Salamence, Jirachi, Volcarona* / 100 / +Spe / 252 / 1
486 / Hydreigon / 98 / +Spe / 252 / 1
483 / Haxorus / 97 / +Spe / 252 / 1
475 / Kyurem, Darmanitan / 95 / +Spe / 252 / 1
459 / Lucario, Porygon-Z* / 90 / +Spe / 252 / 1

That's with +1 (which can only be attained with Baton Pass or Choice Scarf, in which case you are in no business using Nasty Plot) or +2, which is attained by spending a turn using Agility. This is not taking into account the time it takes for Porygon-Z to set up a Nasty Plot. The only hope NP P-Z has is substituting on a switch, then setting up NP on the next turn. But how does your Substitute survive the hit from the powerful Pokemon that switches in? Seriously, Nasty Plot Porygon-Z should only be used for a late game sweep when you are sure all your opponent's faster Pokemon are gone, in which case you're better off using Choice Specs.

 

[ginganinja]

I have played around with a few boosting sweepers this gen and I have found that the metagame is just so fast paced, having something that can boost and take a hit is really helpful. That said, I have had a bit of success with stuff like NP Lucario (testing SD Lucario as I type). NP Lucario actually does a pretty decent job at luring in Physical walls and then forcing them out when you reveal Nasty Plot. Granted, Vacuum Wave is rather shit for your Priority but its nice in a pinch for something like Terrakion.

AccidentalGreed complained earlier in the thread that NP Lucario can only do 70% - 82.7% but really, thats utterly fine for me. Even ignoring that fact that no-one really switches in a Specially defensive Jirachi on a Swords Dance Lucario, it also means that with a bit of prior damage there special "wall" is gone. Also, its not like SDef Jirachi is actually beating NP Lucario anyway. I guess im somewhat biased as im using an overloading strategy atm which lures out and cripples counters for something else to sweep. For example doing 70% min to SDef Jirachi means that my LO Latios can now start threatening my opponents team etc etc.

On the subject of "boosting" in general I have also used NP Mew (really underrated btw and hits damn hard) as well as Swords Dance Mienshao (OHKOing Skarm after SR yes please!). Sure, Mienshao is hardly the bulkiest pokemon out there but, provided you play your cards right you can really but the hurt on your opponent. If you ask me, boosting Infernape and SD Mienshao are slightly less seen because may players (myself included) sometimes hate that 50/50 prediction whether your opponent switches out, (giving you your free boost) or attack crippling you. Hence why maybe certain numbers of the player base drift to the bulkier boosters such as Terrakion and Celebi, since they can actually take a few hits and lessens the need for prediction.

Also just a nitpick

Also, a bulky NPer that gets forced out by Dragonite, who can then get a free turn of set-up? No thanks.

You know that Lucario can run HP Ice right? Since Vacuum Wave has limited use its not actually a bad idea plus it gets that clean OHKO on GLiscor and I guess you can hit Landorus on the switch...

 

[Myzozoa]

The best users of nasty plot are the ones that can have something more than just a high special attack.

For example Thundurus has high special attack but more importantly high speed, resistances to bullet punch, and essentially perfect coverage. Essentially every time it come in it could either set up or just sweep, and beating it was frequently a prediction war.

This is not the case for pokemon like infernape, who have to rely on inaccurate moves and subpar coverage. Even though Infernape has a priority move, to maximize its damage and get key ohko's it needs to run focus blast, which is a pretty shitty move.

The key difference between infernape and thundurus is that thundurus is good in almost every weather condition and infernape is bad in sand (hates having sand stream and LO recoil) and awful in rain. So to run a good special boosting set a pokemon needs to be good in weather, like manaphy for example.

Latias and Latios don't have nasty plot, but their calm mind sets are pretty good largely because of their fantastic typing/stats and recover (also the 'surprise factor').

Nasty Plot Lucario is definitely lacking in power, and his priority move is commonly resisted. However, NP luke is essentially completely unexpected, and if someone mistakes it for sd or agility they're going to lose quite a few pokemon. It's the type of thing that you might use in a tournament because surprise is maybe more important than consistency and overall power.

 

[Spork]

Even though Infernape has a priority move, to maximize its damage and get key ohko's it needs to run focus blast, which is a pretty shitty move.

...How is that different from Thundurus.

Ape can still run CC on NP sets anyway, it's certainly more effective in many situations, and much more reliable.

 

[Myzozoa]

Hp Ice +thunderbolt is perfect coverage. And in addition, focus blast is not Thundurus is primary move, unlike for Infernape, which pretty much has to use focus blast over fireblast because of the dominance of rain.

 

[Spork]

You wouldn't run NPApe without Sun anyway. Similar to how the most popular NP Thundurus sets are Rain sets. Again, Ape can use CC over Focus Blast. And HP Ice + Thunderbolt gets walled by a lot of stuff. It's doesn't have the power or the SE coverage to break through nearly as many special walls.

 

[November Blue]

yay my thread is alive

I'd be much happier if you made this just a "stat-up" thread rather than just Nasty Plot.

No problem. Could you please change the title to "Nasty Plot and other stat-up moves"

I have played around with a few boosting sweepers this gen and I have found that the metagame is just so fast paced, having something that can boost and take a hit is really helpful.

Yep. While offensive boosters are still viable with prediction, their popularity is waning noticeably.

I wouldn't call Volcarona an offensive booster when the most popular sets are the bulky ones that run Morning Sun, Chesto Rest or Substitute.

Furthermore, Celebi isn't easy to wall. Far from it. I use Recover and two attacks, and the sprouts bulk gives me plenty of opportunities to get in a second plot. Giga Drains health return lets it play similar to Conkeldurr, and a 2 or 3HKO with Giga Drain is fine in some cases. I remember Giga Draining a Jirachi for 60ish% one time. I think that it was specially defensive too.

False. Without HP Fire Celebi lacks crucial coverage, and cannot hit many members of rain teams with Grass + Earth Power Coverage (Ferrothorn, Tornadus, Dragonite, Toxicroak can switch in on your Grass and mutilate you).

Don't underestimate Celebi. Ferrothorn is just asking to be set up on by Earth Power Celebi, Tornadus risks a 2HKO if it tries to switch in, and Toxicroak can hardly switch in at all. Its 2HKOed by Giga Drain, and can't KO Celebi in return. It'll be slower too. Dragonite is a pretty solid check though.

 

[Nix_Hex]

JT Swift: you can change the title yourself. Edit the op and click Go Advanced.