Other Stall

[effyouzion]

Hello Smogon! I was following this thread for quite a long time and this is what I came up with looking for a Mega-Heracross counters and checks on Stall:

1: Smogon Weezing: Survives 2 Rock Blasts AFTER SR and Burns. If there are not SR, it WILL survive a third ( burned) Rock Blast and use Pain Split.

2: Cofagrigus: It can also survive 2 Rock Blasts after SR and can Burn and heal itself if there were no Rocks. However, it can be killed by a combination of Knock Off and Rock Blast. Not all Hera carry Knock Off though.

3: Defensive Nidoqueen with Flamethrower: Can check it if it hasn,t EQ:

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Nidoqueen: 120-140 (31.2 - 36.4%) -- approx. 0.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Sheer Force Nidoqueen Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Heracross: 128-152 (42.3 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

Will lose against EQ versions and even if winning, will be quite weak in any case. Shaky check.

4: Clefable: As Ajwf said earlier, will lose if a single Rock Blast crits. Good check if that doesn,t happen though.

5: Physically defensive Arbok: Can survive any hit of EQ less versions and paralize it with Glare. Yeah, I know its useless vs the rest of OU.

6: Arcanine: Will at least burn slow versions of Heracross. Nearly always loses vs faster ones. Very Shaky check.

7: Physically defensive Gengar with Max HP/ Max Def: Strange set but I saw some people using it. Burns and wins any Hera thats hasn,t Knock Off. Loses miserably if Hera has Knock Off.

8: Dusclops: I know this poke is crap, but it counters Hera if it doesn,t have Knock Off.

9: Dusknoir: Same as Dusclops:

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusknoir: 115-140 (39.1 - 47.6%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

10:Physically defensive Infernape: Outspeeds most versions and Burns. Can do some damage with his Fire STAB. EQ still can KO it:

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Infernape: 280-330 (78.6 - 92.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
11: Granbull: Might have some niche in OU because of this. Can check some other staff with his awesome typing and ability. Needs Rest though.

-1 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 115-140 (29.9 - 36.4%) -- approx. 41.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

12: Aerial Ace Gliscor: Kinda sucks slapping a shit move because of just one poke, but seems that it has to do it in order to counter Hera.

13: Tornadus-T: Outspeeds and OHKOs... but OHKOed by Rock Blast. Bad accuracy STAB moves, but Rock Blast also has that.

14: Landorus-T: Resists everything and Intimidates... but can,t do can,t do much damage to Heracross, has low Accuracy Rock Moves and will be eventually worn down.

And that is. Just 14 Pokes. Out of them I consider Weezing ( good), Cofagrigus ( good), Nidoqueen ( shaky), Clefable ( shaky), Infernape ( check), Granbull ( good, but with limitations), Arcanine ( very shaky), Gliscor ( useless move but good) Landorus-T ( doesn,t do damage) and Tornadus-T ( shaky check) to be viable in OU. I actually do not consider Doublade being good vs Heracross, as is weak to both Earthquake AND Knock Off.

Just FYI Torn-T can do the aerial ace thing like Gliscor to avoid misses, and it's actually worthwhile on him. Turns Torn-T into a hard counter to CM Keldeo as well.

Still not a great check because he can't switch in on a rock blast, but being able to force Hera out and letting him get worn down can you win the game over time with some smart switches.

 

[Sun King]

Howdy guys and gals,

So while bored at work, I started brainstorming ideas for a new team--I came up with something very similar to Adrian Marin 's team here. The differences were CBBNite instead of Gliscor as a Lando counter, Amoongus instead of Mega-Venu, and Wish on Chansey.

My main reason CBBNite was priority and being free to Heal Bell, whenever, without worry.

I liked Amoongus because he forms a nice regenerator core with Alomomola, and has the ever useful Spore and Clear Smog.

Lastly, I wanted to try out a double Wish core. In theory, it seems a bit redundant. However, only using one Wish passer puts a lot of pressure on that passer, so I wanted to mitigate that. The end result would be a team that thoroughly mitigates the risks of switching in checks and counters.

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

 

[Adrian Marin]

Howdy guys and gals,

So while bored at work, I started brainstorming ideas for a new team--I came up with something very similar to Adrian Marin 's team here. The differences were CBBNite instead of Gliscor as a Lando counter, Amoongus instead of Mega-Venu, and Wish on Chansey.

My main reason CBBNite was priority and being free to Heal Bell, whenever, without worry.

I liked Amoongus because he forms a nice regenerator core with Alomomola, and has the ever useful Spore and Clear Smog.

Lastly, I wanted to try out a double Wish core. In theory, it seems a bit redundant. However, only using one Wish passer puts a lot of pressure on that passer, so I wanted to mitigate that. The end result would be a team that thoroughly mitigates the risks of switching in checks and counters.

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

The main problem with using cbbnite over Gliscor is it leaves you a lot more vulnerable to Mega Heracross and Terrakion. Double Wish cores are really good, Wish is one of the main selling points of Alomomola and it does it extremely well with Chansey.

 

[Sun King]

The main problem with using cbbnite over Gliscor is it leaves you a lot more vulnerable to Mega Heracross and Terrakion. Double Wish cores are really good, Wish is one of the main selling points of Alomomola and it does it extremely well with Chansey.

I'll play around with the team a bit after work, but my preferred method of killing Mega Heracross would probably be to pass a wish to Skarm and then kill with Counter. If I'm not mistaken, Gliscor is not much help against SD mega Hera, and that's really the only one I'm overly concerned about. I might maximize Alomomola's defense to help take Terrak a bit better and threaten with a toxic or a scald.

 

[Ajwf]

Be warned if your opponent has seen counter skarm, they'll just spam rock blast. Counter would actually only do the damage to the last rock blast hit, and if they're smart, it's pretty easy to see roost turns and CC for full damage, which will put you to guaranteed death, especially if it's a slow Mhera.

 

[Sun King]

I did not know that. Never mind, then. Looks like Gliscor is the best option for this team.

 

[totoTavros]

Ajwf (how do you tag) Wouldn't it be possible to out-slow the mcross?

 

[LCampoy8]

Is there a reliable counter to Landorus-i? Seem like he hits all my pkmn super effectively or knocks off an important item like eviolite.

 

[Sun King]

Is there a reliable counter to Landorus-i? Seem like he hits all my pkmn super effectively or knocks off an important item like eviolite.

Everything you need to know about countering the scariest stuff in the meta is right here.

 

[jbtc10]

If youre using wish passing to skarm as your means of dealing with mega Hera, use brave bird instead of counter to avoid the rock blast problem. It's still an unreliable idea overall though, since it still has nearly insurmountable problems in dealing with swords dance versions.

 

[Sun King]

If youre using wish passing to skarm as your means of dealing with mega Hera, use brave bird instead of counter to avoid the rock blast problem. It's still an unreliable idea overall though, since it still has nearly insurmountable problems in dealing with swords dance versions.

Pretty much everything has problems with SD Hera.

 

[Turducken64]

Pretty much everything has problems with SD Hera.

Tank weezing can handle it but is pretty much deadweight outside of this from my experience. Aegi and doublade can handle the SD set if there is no eq. Cofagrigus can wall the hell out of it and back thanks to will o wisp and haze. Physically defensive gliscor also fares well against Hera but aerial ace (lol aerial ace) may be needed to stop it from sword dancing through your team.

Assault vest torn can check it decently and has a few switchin opportunities before it sd's. Mew and other fast will o wisp users can also give Hera trouble burning it so something like skarm or another physical wall can handle it.

Tbh I shit my pants every time a see a Hera in team preview when I have stall as if I make the slightest mistake it can just plow through my team late game if I give it the chance to set up.

 

[HJAD]

As this generation has developed, i have tryed several techniques of team-building to see which is right for me. After a long period of time, searching through forums, trying to find a particular playstyle which is both effective and "fun" my quest came at an end when i discovered momentum stall. In theory it is stall, without the need to predict using both offensive pressure and momentum gaining moves like volt switch and u-turn.
The problem i am currently facing is:

• i dont need to "counter" the current meta, just check it. Therefore due to movepool restrictions this becomes extremely difficult. Which mons should i use to eliviate these problems? I've found scarf landorus-therian a fantastic poke at doing such a thing problem is there aren't many pokes in the meta like it.
• hazard control becomes paramount, therefore a spinner / defogger is key as you dont want to be switching into rocks every other turn, eventually either losing your momentum by using roost or or accumulating so much damage that your poke becomes death fodder. Also having a lot of hazards on the opposing side of the field can be extremely useful to speed up the games progress through the other person's team. How do i get this not to clash with my own hazard support since defog removes all hazards and spinning can be easily blocked by certain ghost mons?
• Its extremely difficult to regain momentum after wasting a turn defogging/spinning/roosting, how do i regain this momentum without taking a huge hit on any of my mons?
• This style becomes extremely predictable after 10+ turns per match so the "threatening of the opponent" thing kinda stops working as they are leaving a pokemon in when they should really be switching it out, when you have you're check to that pokemon in, you have to sacrifice another because of this therefore leaving space for other pokes to deal huge damage to the rest of your team. How can i avoid this from happening?
• bulky set up sweepers like mega char-x and mega scizor are a pain in the ass to take out, especially if the opponent has good defog / spinning support. How do i deal with these?

My last problem is probably the biggest, but i have no idea how to structure a momentum stall team and which pokes i have to counter and check in the current meta. This worries me because as i was testing this and got higher on the ladder, people seemed to be ready for every antic i threw at them. So a solid structure from y'all would be extremely helpful

Personally, this is my favourite playstyle (momentum stall) in the entire tier because when you play unprepared opponents, little risk is required to beat such people. Very similar to stall infact. It would be extremely helpful if you guys can help me out of these problems and providing me with answers to the questions above, it would be a life saver rather than having to pile through another 300 pages of forum posts.
<3

 

[Sun King]

As this generation has developed, i have tryed several techniques of team-building to see which is right for me. After a long period of time, searching through forums, trying to find a particular playstyle which is both effective and "fun" my quest came at an end when i discovered momentum stall. In theory it is stall, without the need to predict using both offensive pressure and momentum gaining moves like volt switch and u-turn.
The problem i am currently facing is:

• i dont need to "counter" the current meta, just check it. Therefore due to movepool restrictions this becomes extremely difficult. Which mons should i use to eliviate these problems? I've found scarf landorus-therian a fantastic poke at doing such a thing problem is there aren't many pokes in the meta like it.
• hazard control becomes paramount, therefore a spinner / defogger is key as you dont want to be switching into rocks every other turn, eventually either losing your momentum by using roost or or accumulating so much damage that your poke becomes death fodder. Also having a lot of hazards on the opposing side of the field can be extremely useful to speed up the games progress through the other person's team. How do i get this not to clash with my own hazard support since defog removes all hazards and spinning can be easily blocked by certain ghost mons?
• Its extremely difficult to regain momentum after wasting a turn defogging/spinning/roosting, how do i regain this momentum without taking a huge hit on any of my mons?
• This style becomes extremely predictable after 10+ turns per match so the "threatening of the opponent" thing kinda stops working as they are leaving a pokemon in when they should really be switching it out, when you have you're check to that pokemon in, you have to sacrifice another because of this therefore leaving space for other pokes to deal huge damage to the rest of your team. How can i avoid this from happening?
• bulky set up sweepers like mega char-x and mega scizor are a pain in the ass to take out, especially if the opponent has good defog / spinning support. How do i deal with these?

My last problem is probably the biggest, but i have no idea how to structure a momentum stall team and which pokes i have to counter and check in the current meta. This worries me because as i was testing this and got higher on the ladder, people seemed to be ready for every antic i threw at them. So a solid structure from y'all would be extremely helpful

Personally, this is my favourite playstyle (momentum stall) in the entire tier because when you play unprepared opponents, little risk is required to beat such people. Very similar to stall infact. It would be extremely helpful if you guys can help me out of these problems and providing me with answers to the questions above, it would be a life saver rather than having to pile through another 300 pages of forum posts.
<3

I think you should take a look at Bulky Mega Scizor. He's got U-Turn, plus he can Defog. That said, I thought that momentum stall mainly worked by keeping hazards up and really racking up damage through hazards. If you need a good ZardX check, Scarf Latias works--if you want a counter, Rhyperior can tank anything at +1 and OHKO with EQ. I know Gliscor is a pretty good teammate on momentum stall, as he can wall a ton of stuff and u-turn out of predicted switches. I know Emmy2 made a decent momentum stall team, she should be able to help you out.

 

[Scherzo.]

Is Baton Pass viable for Stall?

 

[WideTomato]

Is Baton Pass viable for Stall?

Baton pass is not really viable on full stall teams, as they generally tend to switch around a lot, and with the BP nerf, you will toss away all your boosts in those scenarios.

 

[Sun King]

Is Baton Pass viable for Stall?

The only real use for BP on stall is to dodge things like pursuit, or Gothitelle. As such, U-Turn is generally a better option.

 

[Redolent]

I've used RestTalk Landorus-T on one of my better stall team variants. RestTalk may be far from ideal but in terms of raw physical bulk from the switch-in, it's more or less unsurpassed. It is a solid check to Mega Mawile (the main reason I added it), which can break through Gliscor and Hippowdon more easily (+2 Play Rough and Focus Punch respectively), but it's also a pretty safe switch into Mega Heracross although lack of decent counter moves is a problem. Even uninvested, that 145 base Attack is nice to hit switch-ins with. Meanwhile its bulk deals well with Choice Banders and it's a good emergency check to things like Mega Pinsir too.

-1 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 105-125 (27.4 - 32.7%) -- approx. 70.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

As raw bulk goes, Gligar could work too, although it has obvious disadvantages.

 

[Reverb]

It's been my observation that emphasis on stall has changed from entry hazards to status. Most stall teams seek to burn/poison an opposing threat only to switch to a check/counter and thus allow damage to accumulate. That being said, given the power creep, offensive teams can impose incredible pressure, making it difficult for one to have time to use status moves.

 

[Ajwf]

I've prefered the 30% status moves this gen like scald/lava plume, discharge and sludge bomb to actual statuses outside of toxic. It means that you're able to get damage off, even if you don't necessarily get the status. Just a better way to have something resembling pressure and better acc overall.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

I've prefered the 30% status moves this gen like scald/lava plume, discharge and sludge bomb to actual statuses outside of toxic. It means that you're able to get damage off, even if you don't necessarily get the status. Just a better way to have something resembling pressure and better acc overall.

who doesn't like them? Sad thing is most stall members don't learn those moves or just have garbage attack stats where i find its generally not worth while.

 

[Sun King]

Given how hard it can be to keep hazards up this gen, we've had to focus on new ways of racking up the residual damage. I second Aj's post; I rely on that 80% 30% burn chance on Lava Plume and Scald. Toxic and WoW are nice moves, however, they're complete Taunt bait. A lot of the top offensive threats actually need to be countered through damage alone, as they are too dangerous to try to toxic stall. Things like Charizard X, Mega Pinsir, Mega Gyarados can boost up and blow through cores if you don't have a solid way to hurt them. As such, I find myself using things like Rhyperior on my teams purely because of STAB EQ/Rock Blast and enough bulk to take on some of the aforementioned threats. Stall has really had to adapt to the power creep this gen.

 

[jbtc10]

WoW is pretty amazing though tbh. Getting residual on steel and poison types like Venu, Aegi, etc is really important and while Toxic is still pretty good, it's just so much easier to switch into and causes a pretty huge momentum loss when you predict wrong. WoW is much more spammable, even burning special attackers like Keldeo and Lando-I is perfectly fine by me and worth spending a turn doing.

I made a stall team designed around spamming WoW once, had 3-4 WoW users (and a Scald user) and it was really handy for making sure physical sweepers never got out of hand, since most of my mons were a check to them as I could easily burn them, then switch into Quagsire to perpetually wall them regardless of what the threat was basically. Fast WoW users like Char-Y and Mew were especially good at doing this, and I ended up creeping them to 250 speed to outspeed 252 speed neutral Mega Heracross to ensure that I always had a way to avoid losing more than 1 pokemon to it. 1-for-1'ing the opponents biggest threat is usually a big win for stall.

 

[kirant]

Given how hard it can be to keep hazards up this gen, we've had to focus on new ways of racking up the residual damage. I second Aj's post; I rely on that 80% 30% burn chance on Lava Plume and Scald. Toxic and WoW are nice moves, however, they're complete Taunt bait. A lot of the top offensive threats actually need to be countered through damage alone, as they are too dangerous to try to toxic stall. Things like Charizard X, Mega Pinsir, Mega Gyarados can boost up and blow through cores if you don't have a solid way to hurt them. As such, I find myself using things like Rhyperior on my teams purely because of STAB EQ/Rock Blast and enough bulk to take on some of the aforementioned threats. Stall has really had to adapt to the power creep this gen.

I think 30%s are the way to go since, as you said, so many threats (especially with the freedom of Mega Heracross to utilize a non-EQ 4th move if Aegislash gets moved to Ubers) are tough to find traditional counters to. I'm sure many have done the math at this point but a 30% attack is more likely than not to inflict its status on 2 shots (0.7^2 = 0.49). The only status condition I MUST have is WoW since the damage reduction is often a pretty useful tool in survival and praying luck favours me.

Edit - With more Mega Heracrosses willing to run a non-EQ 4th move now, is there really much hope for a full out counter to Mega Heracross that isn't dead weight against most other teams? Or is it fair to just assume it doens't run an unusual set and hope for the best? Because, as others discussed previously, I'm scratching my head to stop one willing to run SD.

 

[Geopolitics]

Tbh Bronzong looks like a pretty good M-Garde counter. Even HP Fire doesn't do much, and Bronzong can OHKO w/ Gyro iirc. Looks good on paper I suppose.