so if I get reqs after at about 1-2 am est on May 1st (ladder shouldn't be gone by then) will my vote still matter if I post around that time ?
I'm going to vote BAN on Extreme Speed.Ayyy abusing this to have reqs earlier than I would.
reqs
shoutouts to whitephoenixace2 for leaving a match
I honestly didn't find games that hard to find, despite what other people have been saying. They take a couple minutes usually but not like ten or w/e, so it's not hard to get a good number of games in in a row.
Anyway. About espeed.
I'm having a really tough time deciding on this one tbh. I think I'm going to wait and play a bit more without being trying to get reqs before I vote.
Although this meta really shouldn't sway me either way.
This goes in a hide because it's not really relevant to how Ivotedwill vote. Also I typed it first cuz it was the fun part.
Birds (or genies or giant dragonflies) are incredibly strong in this metagame. Thundurus, Aerodatyl, and possibly Pidgeot strike me as potentially banworthy.
Thundurus has 0 reliable switchins between AoA sets, Z-Focus Blast, and Taunt, and it is much more difficult to revenge without espeed. I've heard someone say that Oblivion Wing is the real problem here and I suppose that is possible. This would also nerf the sudden insurgence of Yanmega. However it wouldnt do anything about AoA sets which are, imo, nearly as strong, although not nearly as popular, and honestly I'm not sure it would change much besides it being easier to chip.
Aerodactyl has an absurd speed tier and amazing power and coverage. It has switchins (King's Shield Steela, Hippowdon / Zygarde) but they are extremely limited and counterplay to it is really difficult, as most things rely on revenge killing it or heavy prediction, and Aero usually plays as a revenge killer / wallbreaker which often pairs with slow pivoting to bring it in safetly. This was broken before espeed went away.
Pidgeot is annoying af. IMHO this is the best set:
Pidgeot-Mega @ Pidgeotite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sing
- Boomburst / Hurricane
- U-turn
- Heat Wave
Running Dual STAB is kinda pointless, you don't actually hit much you wouldn't anyway. Boomburst has more power, hits through subs, and can hit Thundurus and Rotom, while Hurricane has confusehax, hits Ghosts (fuk u Chandelure), and has overall better super-effective coverage (AKA any). Sing + U-Turn is a deadly combo. You sing their check as they switch in then U-Turn out to something like Terrakion which can pressure common Pidg switchins and force them out, giving you free damage and momentum. The best part is if you keep U-Turning every time they bring in that Pidg check they don't get to recover, and eventually it will be weak enough for Pidg or another Pokemon to KO (is that how voltturn cores work? Yes, yes it is) but at the same time they can't burn sleep turns because you keep forcing them out with your wallbreaker of choice. I ran Pidg/Terrak/Yanmega and although the rest of the team was p bad that core rocked at chipping Ttar and Chansey for Yanmega sweeps.
Yanmega might not broken, but it's an incredibly effective sweeper post-espeed. Fortunately the omnipresent Tyranitar managed to stop it pretty reliably when i was running it early in my run (sand = no sash). The fact that it pretty much demands an Accelerock user (+6 252+ SpA Yanmega Oblivion Wing vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 336-396 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO) and isn't really possible to outspeed makes it verge on broken, but I've found that preventing it from setting up can be sufficient. Shoutout volcanionisgood for hyping Yanmega and turning me onto it.
NON-BIRDS!
Literally every espeeder except Lopunny seems awful now, but Lopunny is still really fking good. 135 speed is insane, it resists the common Accelerock and doesn't need to worry about Fake Out nearly as much. Also people are less over-prepared for Normal types.
Lopunny-Mega @ Lopunnite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Head Charge / Return
- High Jump Kick
- Ice Punch / Quick Attack / Encore
This right here bought me to tearsSpore: For the ESpeed suspect test ladder I've played 40 games atm (here's a screenshot of the alt I used) and I never really had a problem with Spore. You have good grass types like Tapu Bulu, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur to absorb them, status "absorbers" like Chansey and Misty Terrain to work with it. Heck, the Rotom I have on my team doesn't even have Spore. I think it should neither be banned nor suspected because it's not that broken.
Just a couple commentsI do have to absolutely disagree with unranking all of the old espeed users; diggersby in particular still hits like a truck on its own, and snorlax can still be a very effective late game cleaner with a belly drum + quick attack set once certain mons have been removed. I've never used Bewear so I can't speak either way on it, but on paper it seems like it can be still be a useful tank.
A lot of their sets may be gone and they certainly deserve to drop, but not to be unranked. I'm actually interested to see if a Z-Sketch (which is a +1 all stats z-move) Diggersby set could be effective. Its speed isn't bad at all at +1 (outspeeds everything except accelgor, which is only relevant to set sticky webs, and mega-alakazam) and its bulk isn't awful at +1 either.
My personal favorite fakespeeder, Braviary, is probably dead though. I used it for Defiant and powerful flying STAB (+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Braviary Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 313-370 (81.9 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), but without extreme speed I can't see it being worth running.
Anyway, my stances on some of Drampa's other noms:
Celesteela and Thundurus-I: Definitely agree; I think that Cele's rise is long overdue, and Thundurus adores a FakeSpeed free meta.
Landorus-Therian: Not sold either way on this one. I'm inclined to say that it should stay in S, however; you have to remember that Lando-T can run a lot more than just its bog standard defensive set: It can still run Double Dance, SD, RP, CB, scarf, et cetera. It still has every trait that makes it good in standard with the addition of reliable recovery, the ability to burn contact attackers, and powerful flying STAB.
Lopunny-Mega: I have to disagree here; Lopunny-Mega actually receives a net buff, in my opinion, with the loss of espeed; before, it either ran espeed itself or lost to it, but now its stellar speed is even more effective (especially since it resists both accelerock and sucker punch) and it can run Head Charge as its normal STAB, which is a huge damage upgrade from espeed. I'm still not sure it's worthy of S, but it definitely shouldn't fall below A+.
Pidgeot-Mega: Definitely deserves A+; playing against it has always been a gamble due to its reliable sleep and high power STABs, and it lost most of its offensive checks with the espeed ban. I actually feel the mega pigeon is rather restricting to teambuild for and play against, but I'm far from sold that it's broken or uncompetitive.
Here's a few noms I had in mind:
Camerupt-Mega: Unranked > B/B-
Dents every switch in except Chansey heavily with Blue Flare + Earth Power + HP Ice. In particular, can switch into anything defensive Celesteela can do (0 SpA Celesteela Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 88-105 (25.5 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO) and force it out. Even defensive rotom-w is 2HKO'd by Blue Flare, meaning that it's hardly a safe switch in. Basically every offensive mon on the viability ranking (with one or two exceptions, like araquanid) takes minimum 50% from one of camerupt's moves, and most of them are OHKO'd outright. It also gets Shore Up for its last move slot, letting it keep itself healthy on forced switches. It's not stellar because it's so painfully slow and 4x weak to water, but it's a terror offensively and simply eats teams if TR is on the field.
Camerupt @ Cameruptite
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spd
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blue Flare
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Shore Up
Chandelure: Unranked > B/B+
How was this not ranked already? Chandelure has been a premier scarfer in STABmons since its debut; blue flare and moongeist beam both hit hard off of 145 special attack and have great coverage, complemented by something like HP Ice or Energy Ball, and it can run utility options in its last slot such as Trick to cripple Chansey and Destiny Bond to take out an offensive mon that it can't outright KO in a pinch. Its immunity to Normal isn't as valuable without espeed around (especially since Mega-Lopunny has Scrappy), but Chandelure is still very solid overall.
Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blue Flare
- Moongeist Beam
- Energy Ball / Hidden Power Ice
- Destiny Bond / Trick / Memento
Mega-Heracross: Unranked >B-/B
Mega Heracross doesn't gain a whole lot from STABmons, but it can fulfill the same roles as it does in standard; it hits hard with its high power STABs and a sky high attack stat, and it can either run Swords Dance to break down walls or Heal Order to take advantage of its good physical bulk.
Heracross @ Heracronite
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pin Missile
- High Jump Kick / Drain Punch
- Rock Blast
- Swords Dance / Heal Order
Roserade: Unranked > B-/B
Roserade is a seriously underrated offensive mon; it's basically the only viable non-mega user of Seed Flare (and Mega-Venusaur doesn't even run it all of the time), which is a stellar move. One could argue that Shaymin gives it some competition, but Shaymin lacks dual STAB, has less power, and can't run Technician HP Fire for a pseudo-flamethrower like Roserade can. My favorite set that I've run is a Grassium Z set that outspeeds and OHKOs defensive Lando-T with Bloom Doom and chunks a lot of other mons (such as having a decent chance to KO Toxapex with BD + Seed Flare, OHKOing Tyranitar-Mega, OHKOing Zygarde after Stealth Rock, et cetera). It suffers from being walled by Celesteela and Heatran, but can break through several other steels such as Ferrothorn and Skarmory with its fire coverage. Additionally, it can chip physical attackers with Spiky Shield or set Spikes/TSpikes.
Roserade @ Grassium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Spiky Shield / Spikes / Toxic Spikes
I find that offensive Lando-T isn't amazing. It's not a bad mon, but I don't think those sets deserve to be held up next to its bulky one. The only one I ever find worrisome in the slightest is Scarf, and it's very reliant on its dual stab for all offensive sets which means Pokemon like Rotom and Steela come in on it very easily, while things like Thundy (which is not something u want to be giving free switch-ins to) can offensively abuse Lando-T.Landorus-Therian: Not sold either way on this one. I'm inclined to say that it should stay in S, however; you have to remember that Lando-T can run a lot more than just its bog standard defensive set: It can still run Double Dance, SD, RP, CB, scarf, et cetera. It still has every trait that makes it good in standard with the addition of reliable recovery, the ability to burn contact attackers, and powerful flying STAB.
I've actually used this a set similar to this early in the gen, and it was pretty bad. I think I used Milk Drink/Circle Throw/Ice Punch/Extreme Speed. Solidly half the physical mons in the meta either hit Normal/Fighting super effectively or don't care about Fluffy. Even with Fluffy, it wasn't bulky enough to justify over Buzz or Lando, which both have better typing. I found Furfrou to be more consistent, if a bit more passive. If you really want these mons in C with like Mudsdale, then I'll consider it.I haven't logged in since the site redesign, but I will not stand this INJUSTICE. I will not be SILENT.
Defensive Bewear, with Recover/Circle Throw/Toxic/filler, is the ONLY switch-in to Tyranitar in the game and is BETTER than some lame-ass offensive Extreme Speed sweeper. If it is unranked because of the Espeed ban I will PERSONALLY break into ihhca's house and reprogram his teddy bear to pummel him in his sleep.
:angery:
(Also, I'd be interested to test out Fake Out + Quick Attack on Pokemon that relied on Fakespeed. It's a 1/3 drop in power but that's still the strength of one Espeed. I wouldn't throw out all the old Normal types quite yet)
I understand how bulky it is; I used it for a while. If you just consider the physical attackers that are in A- or higher, it flat out loses to everything except for Lopunny, TTar, Swampert, and Jolly Scarf Landorus-T. It still loses to Lopunny, Landorus, and Swampert if there's 1 layer of spikes up, or Lando is Adamant, SD, or Z move. It loses to CB Aero, Sub Zygarde (which is what Ice Punch is for), Lets Snuggle Mimikyu, Terrakion, Altaria, Zard-X, Hoopa, Mawile, and Medicham. I think pokemon like Quagsire, Toxapex, Celesteela, Buzzwole, Skarmory, Mew, and Landorus have a much better matchup spread against these threats because they have massively better typing and better bulk against non-contact or Fire-type moves.I think part of the problem was your set. I'm not really sure what Ice Punch is supposed to accomplish--Toxic is a mandatory slot as far as I'm concerned. Few Steels want to take a Circle Throw, and few Poisons threaten you, so in my experience, it's been the most reliable status spreader on my stall team. Extreme Speed is also pretty pointless without investment.
It's true that a lot of things hit Normal/Fighting super effectively, but I think you're underestimating Bewear's bulk. Here are things I've stayed in on:
252 Atk Technician Marshadow Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Bewear on a critical hit: 182-216 (40.9 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Bewear: 180-212 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I would like to note that Thundurus cannot boost to +4 against Stunfisk because Stunfisk has the godly move Eerie Impulse.A new month, a new set of mons to potentially suspect.
This month I would like to focus on improving resources and taking a look at everyone's (least) favorite birds: Thundurus-I, Aerodactyl, and M-Pidgeot. They all basically have the same problem: defensive play against them is extremely unreliable and they're fast as hell.
Thundy's standard Taunt/NP/OWing/X set has VERY few defensive checks, the most generally viable of which are SpD Pixie Plate Sylveon and several TTar sets, like Scarf, Band, and Mega. Unfortunately Sylveon is liable to get OHKO'd by bolt strike, and everything short of max/max Mega TTar gets OHKO'd by superpower. Other more niche checks tend to have poor matchup spreads outside of Thundy and still lose to several of its sets. Non-mega Diancie cannot avoid the 2hko from bolt strike. Rhydon cannot avoid the 2hko from focus blast. Stunfisk would win the matchup if it had better stats to either do enough damage to keep Thundy from setting up to +4 and just outhealing Stone Edge or Discharge, or enough bulk to invest in attack and not die to neutral coverage.
Choice Band Aerodactyl just clicks Head Smash and watches everything that doesn't resist drop. Occasionally it clicks Brave Bird to watch Ferrothorn die, or Accelerock to kill yanmega. Even more occasionally it actually gets walled by Hippowdon or Rhydon, if it doesn't pack Aqua Tail. And rarest of all, you find someone trying to convince people that Mega Steelix, Def Bronzong, and Mega Aggron are viable pokemon.
Mega Pidgeot is a bit of a different beast, since it's largely gotten around the whole "sleep moves are busted" thing with No Guard Sing. I am happy to either just get rid of Sing, and any other sleep moves that people have a problem with new mons learning. Or look at Mega Pidgeot as the problem itself. Pokemon like SpD Celesteela, Sylveon, Heatran, and TTar are great until they're asleep (bring back scarf sleep talk heatran y/y), and pokemon like Tapu Fini and Chansey lose the long game because they cannot keep taking hits or they get steadily whittled by boom -> sleep -> pivot or just sleep -> pivot.
TL:DR; run Rhydon and Stunfisk to beat all these mons and cry at how bad they are
pls discuss
It seems worth noting that Terrakion notably receives Accelerock and Mach Punch, two priority moves that greatly improve its matchup vs. offensive teams. The faster threats mentioned -- Aerodactyl, MLop, and Thundurus -- all fear one of the two moves. It's a potent revenge killer as well as a wallbreaker.Now with OMWC rolling around....
version 3.0
Welcome to O.T.R.! The council has been hard at work gathering intel about dangerous threats roaming the STABmons ladder. In this post, you'll see what threats we are keeping a close watch on, and the likelihood of said threats to be banned based on their distances. After a few days of laddering and discussion from the date of this post, the council will reconvene and announce which of the following targets have been eliminated.
Thundurus <5m
An amazing setup sweeper and wallbreaker with it's Nasty Plot and Mixed Defiant sets respectively. Thundurus has recently demonstrated its choke-hold on the metagame due to the lackluster amount of counterplay there can be towards it. A high Speed stat in combination with the ability to shut down defensive threats via Taunt and setup boosts enables Thundurus to threaten both offensive and defensive playstyles alike. The council believes this to be the most pressing suspect at the moment.
Terrakion <15m
Terrakion is another amazing wallbreaker that takes advantage of its great offensive STAB combo to nearly threaten every defensive wall in the tier. Boosting sets utilizing a Choice Band or Swords Dance + a STAB Z-Move turns Terrakion into one of the most difficult threats to switch into in the tier without resorting to niche checks such as Palossand. It does get outspeed by faster threats such as Mega Lopunny, Aerodactyl, and Greninja, however Terrakion's dominance over more defensive teams is why we believe it should be looked at.
[distant threat detection - additional reconnaissance required]
Ash-Greninja < 30m
Ash-Greninja may have a harder time transforming into it's Ash forme in standard play at times due to the lackluster power before transforming. However, in STABmons it can abuse its new access to moves such as Nasty Plot, Water Spout, and even Steam Eruption to have a much more easier time setting up. Even offensive checks may be taken out via Water Shuriken if they have been weakened enough. Once it nabs a KO, Ash-Greninja may lack many defensive checks besides hard counters such as Tapu Fini, Tangrowth, and Tapu Bulu. However, it may still have a difficult time transforming with the aforementioned threats present, which is why it is a suspect worth debating upon.
Pidgeot-Mega < 50m
Mega Pidgeot has always been a a great mega choice in the STABmons metagame due to its access to reliable Sleep inducer in Sing alongside a powerful spammable STAB in Boomburst alongside coverage in Heat Wave. With this in mind, Mega Pidgeot can break down even its defensive checks if luck is on its side, and can still pivot out against its check with U-turn if it struggles. Still, pokemon such as Tyranitar, Heatran, Aerodactyl, and Celesteela still prove to be great answers to it which is why it is a suspect with a greater distance.
Leave your thoughts in the thread about the above suspects in mind. Council feedback will be given once significant discussion has been acquired.
I personally find Thundurus to be an absurdly difficult threat to properly counter. It has some reliable checks in Tyranitar and Aerodactyl (and other, less common Pokemon like Weavile) while Pokemon like Greninja can revenge it depending on the set (Full health Water Spout or Ice Beam will always kill an uninvested Thundy) but nothing can reliably switch in and win. The fact that it has two extremely good sets that cover both sides of the offensive spectrum make it really hard to play against. Anything that doesnt OHKO it or resist Oblivion Wing will likely lose to the special set, and thanks to the draining effect Thundurus won't even be significantly weakened making it really hard to revenge kill. It also heavily pressures Defoggers thanks to the possibility of it being Defiant, and I can't think of a Spinner that wants to allow it in. Overall it's incredibly difficult to beat Thundurus reliably without relying on either revenge killing or on different checks for each set, which then creates problems in that you have to scout it.
It is, again, nearly impossible to switch into SD Z-Terrakion. Building this OMWC has impressed upon me the difficulty of properly preparing for this monster. While it does have some proper answers they are sparcer then you'd think.
While Ash-Ninja can acheive ridiculous levels of power (252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 318-375 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO) I personally find that it requires too much support to reach it's peak levels of bork. Nasty Plot, being Ash'd (obv), Water Spout, and Rain (less this as it's still amazing outside of rain) all contribute to it's absurd power levels, and I don't think any should be assumed. It's too frail to reliably set up Nasty Plot, needs to already pose an offensive threat to the opposing team to Ash itself, has to be babied to maintain its powerful spouts, and obviously stuff hits really hard in rain. My biggest problem with Ash-Ninja personally is its ability to flinch past otherwise reliable answers. I personally lean against banning this.
F*ck fast and reliable sleep. While Pidg has answers there's like 1.5 of them (Chansey and kinda Sleep Talk Scarftran but lol) that doesn't hate being slept. Pidg can then spam attacks or pivot all over its answers. Pidg being present in a game basically turns the match into "what can I sleep fodder" versus "can I sleep the right thing" which is honestly not much about skill and more about guessing right. There are some ways around this; Tapu Fini can keep Misty Terrain down and prevent sleep, although it's not a very reliable answer to Mega Pidgeot (252 SpA Pidgeot-Mega Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tapu Fini: 142-168 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) especially since Boomburst has more PP than Moonlight.
thundy should be suspected at least imo, thundy puts so much pressure on teambuilding for teams and it has almost no countersNow with OMWC rolling around....
version 3.0
Welcome to O.T.R.! The council has been hard at work gathering intel about dangerous threats roaming the STABmons ladder. In this post, you'll see what threats we are keeping a close watch on, and the likelihood of said threats to be banned based on their distances. After a few days of laddering and discussion from the date of this post, the council will reconvene and announce which of the following targets have been eliminated.
Thundurus <5m
An amazing setup sweeper and wallbreaker with it's Nasty Plot and Mixed Defiant sets respectively. Thundurus has recently demonstrated its choke-hold on the metagame due to the lackluster amount of counterplay there can be towards it. A high Speed stat in combination with the ability to shut down defensive threats via Taunt and setup boosts enables Thundurus to threaten both offensive and defensive playstyles alike. The council believes this to be the most pressing suspect at the moment.
Terrakion <15m
Terrakion is another amazing wallbreaker that takes advantage of its great offensive STAB combo to nearly threaten every defensive wall in the tier. Boosting sets utilizing a Choice Band or Swords Dance + a STAB Z-Move turns Terrakion into one of the most difficult threats to switch into in the tier without resorting to niche checks such as Palossand. It does get outspeed by faster threats such as Mega Lopunny, Aerodactyl, and Greninja, however Terrakion's dominance over more defensive teams is why we believe it should be looked at.
[distant threat detection - additional reconnaissance required]
Ash-Greninja < 30m
Ash-Greninja may have a harder time transforming into it's Ash forme in standard play at times due to the lackluster power before transforming. However, in STABmons it can abuse its new access to moves such as Nasty Plot, Water Spout, and even Steam Eruption to have a much more easier time setting up. Even offensive checks may be taken out via Water Shuriken if they have been weakened enough. Once it nabs a KO, Ash-Greninja may lack many defensive checks besides hard counters such as Tapu Fini, Tangrowth, and Tapu Bulu. However, it may still have a difficult time transforming with the aforementioned threats present, which is why it is a suspect worth debating upon.
Pidgeot-Mega < 50m
Mega Pidgeot has always been a a great mega choice in the STABmons metagame due to its access to reliable Sleep inducer in Sing alongside a powerful spammable STAB in Boomburst alongside coverage in Heat Wave. With this in mind, Mega Pidgeot can break down even its defensive checks if luck is on its side, and can still pivot out against its check with U-turn if it struggles. Still, pokemon such as Tyranitar, Heatran, Aerodactyl, and Celesteela still prove to be great answers to it which is why it is a suspect with a greater distance.
Leave your thoughts in the thread about the above suspects in mind. Council feedback will be given once significant discussion has been acquired.
No, as STABmons is an USUM based metagame. if they ever make it to gen 8, they will probably be looked at individually since not all of them look gamebreaking.Out of curiosity (and apologies if I've missed this somewhere else,) but will the new special moves from Pokemon Let's Go (Sappy Seed / Bouncy Bubble / Buzzy Buzz etc.) be available for use in STABmons? They seem game breaking and overwhelming, way too good, but I still wanted to ask.