Suspect SS STAAAB Suspect: Magearna (Information + Voter Identification Thread)

[Tranquility]

STAAABmons has decided to suspect test Magearna! Magearna has been a controversial aspect of the STAAABmons metagame ever since it got unbanned when DLC 2 dropped. Its stellar bulk, amazing special attack stat and probably the best defensive typing in the game make it one of the best role compressors in the entire metagame. More offensively inclined teams that don't have the luxury of scouting Magearna's set can have big issues playing around it as the variety of abilities Magearna can run makes checking it offensively quite difficult. Perhaps the most obvious set is Assault Vest + Regenerator, which enjoys the addition of Doom Desire to Magearna's movepool, letting it act as an incredible slowpivot, particularly when paired with Dark or Fighting type breakers to punish the Fairies that come in to soak up their powerful STAB moves with a DD coming off of 130 base SPA. Sadly this is not the only set as Magearna can run various setup sets such as Sheer Force, Magic Guard, Triage and Unaware which are all dangerous in their own right. However the toughest part of Magearna is how well it carries immunity abilities. Steel/Fairy only has 2 weaknesses, those being Fire and Ground. With Flash Fire or Levitate respectively, Magearna can basically now beat half of the mons that are supposed to beat it which means it's impossible to really check Magearna offensively without dedicating multiple slots to it. This means the most reliable way of beating Magearna is doing so defensively - Haze, Whirlwind and Spectral Thief all reset setup Magearna's progress, but they tend to be passive and there aren't many viable pokemon that can run these moves (Pex, Chansey, Doublade are the most iconic).

Suspect details: During a Suspect, each player must climb the ladder until they've acquired the GXE necessary to participate in the voting. Primarily, everyone that participates needs to make an alt account following these guidelines:

• Every game must be played on the official Pokemon Showdown site and on a new account (creation date no earlier than today, December 6th) with "MSAS [Nick]"--for example, I could create one called "MSAS TNM" to ladder with.
• To qualify for voting, your alt must play a minimum of 25 games, and you must have a minimum GXE of 72.
• Magearna will be allowed on the ladder during the suspect.
• The suspect test will end on Wednesday December 16th (11:59 pm GMT+1).
• When posting proof of meeting reqs, feel free to use this thread as a means to civilly elucidate any topical opinions regarding whether or not Magearna should be banned (Optional).
• It is mandatory to provide proof of ownership of the alt account as well. (Post a picture of your reqs with your smogon name featured)

As usual, the actual voting will take place in the Blind Voting Forum, so posting anything other than proof of reqs and discussion isn't necessary.

 

[RICEMAN]

In.

 

[Young Killer]

Finally, that disgusting mon will be deleted from existence. :) In

 

[Binacle Pinnacle]

In.

 

[drampa's grandpa]

In my experience offensive sets, namely Magic Guard and Sheer Force, are the closest to broken. Similarly to the Double Dance sets from OU Magearna can use its bulk to set up and become extremely hard to offensively check while its power and coverage leave reliable answers limited pretty much to Volt Absorb Pex and the blobs, except Moonlight means the blobs aren't actually perfect (Skill Swap Whirlwind maybe?).

Stored Power sets deserve a mention here for being basically impossible to wall without some way of removing boosts. Fortunately we have stuff like Prankster Pex, which can somehow tank the 20 bp Stored Power after it Hazes.

Defensive sets are just as good, maybe even better, as they bring massive amounts of utility to the table with typing and bulk. However these sets don't immediately put much pressure on the opponent, and each has its weaknesses. Moonlight as recovery sucks. Low PP makes it practical to whittle down for the average team. Regenerator sets are amazing, but lack the immunity abilities outlined as so important above, making them bait for the common powerful Fire and Ground types in the metagame.

In conclusion: I haven't made up my mind. But I would lean towards no ban for now. Magearna is one of many powerful threats, and while it has near unmatched flexibility and the set variability heavily pressures both teambuilding and ingame decisions, it is not unbeatable nor is it in my view excessively difficult to wall or break. I am open to changing my mind and also might not have time to get reqs lol.

 

[Byleth]

"in" Confirming as MSAS 23Gz

As far as my opinion of mag, I think it is no doubt extremely versatile and can adapt to fit teams really easily. It checks a lot of dangerous stuff in the meta while being dangerous itself. The ability to run Flash Fire, Levitate, access to Shift Gear, Calm Mind, Recovery, and a very usable special move pool allow for some unpredictability, in which I think is the most problematic about Magearna. Once, or I should say, if you can scout the Magearna set somehow then yes it's much easier to deal with. While I believe this is much less of a problem on more defensive teams, this opportunity is more than missing on more offensive teams.

You never really know if your mag "check" will handle the opposing Magearna on the field because of this unpredictability, which can be used to great advantage on the opponent's end. Things like Heatran that are usually good at checking mag can suddenly fall to SFLO Focus Blast, while Magnet Pull Lando, Exca, and other grounds meant to trap mag and other steels ends up unreliably doing so versus Shift Gear or Levitate. Fire types can think they've got the upper hand on mag and then it suddenly has Flash Fire. Chansey utilizing whirlwind tend to be quite reliable but others can fall to pain split. While these may not be the greatest examples, they are certainly applicable and because of this uncertainty it's not uncommon for teams to run multiple mag checks which should be unnecessary and leaves you open to other threats. Because of this, I will be leaning towards BAN but I'll have to see other arguments to be sure.

My very basic team used for reqs https://pokepast.es/f3c12616c6a4c3eb
Slow flip turns are amazing trust me.

 

[shnowshner]

fuck it, in

not anymore this metagame has to have the most annoying ladder i've ever played, like this metagame is really fun but there's so many things you have to keep aware of at once, and after playing against magnet pull swampert at the end of losing to 5 other swamperts if i don't stop playing now feel like i'm going to die. add in my inability to teambuild and its just not worth doing, especially after getting so close to the threshold multiple times and then losing.

 

[ShinyAzelf]

thanks fellow suspect ladderer MSAS Dylan for kindly giving me their fire team, unfortunately don't know your forum nick so i can't tag you.

apologies

☆parr0t: nice win
☆parr0t: stay in on mold breaked volc with corv
☆parr0t: switch pex into pert
☆parr0t: very deserved

i was playing 3 games at once and didn't notice mold breaker, precipice blades miss was my bad D:

 

[anaconja]

come up with cooler alts/prefixes

 

[RICEMAN]

I feel mag isn’t broken but it is very versatile and it’s hard to keep every set in check. However I find that mag also helps keep a lot of the tier in check with it’s typing and bulk. Once it goes a lot of mons and even moves will need to be looked at or go ASAP.

Currently I am voting NO BAN.

I will continue to ladder and may change my mind later.

Btw here's the team I used to get reqs.
https://pokepast.es/e00406bf03fff219

 

[Tmi489]

I never had a problem with Mage, but I ran either Volt Absorb Moltres or Magnet Pull Excadrill. Most importantly, they prevent Mage from gaining momentum, which turns [at least the former] them into hard counters regardless of set*. In OU, its kinda mandatory to block volt switch (and also to counter Regieleki) so mayyybe you need to think of it in that way - Mag's defensive utility is made worse if it can't pivot. However, there are barely any other volt switch users / Electric types in general, and it has to be a Volt Switch blocker who can actually tank Mag's fairly strong Moonblasts [and Zapdos' Hurricanes/OWings/Weather Balls, and potentially Dracozolt's DDarts].
*Set Up immunity Mage can beat either but that is also really rare considering that checking Latios is required in this meta.

I guess I'm tainted by hardcountering mage, as rn would vote No Ban/Abstain. I wouldn't use VA Molt or magdrill usually but they do have their occasional uses; Volt Absorb is pretty useful for the occasional Dracozolt/rising voltage user, and magpull eliminates Heatran which is kinda hard to check otherwise (ironically base Moltres also checks Heatran).

One other thing to note is that Mage keeps many things in check, like Latios, which are probably unhealthy for the metagame even with mag. If mag goes, it makes it way easier to justify them going too.
(also i cheesed quite a few people to get here, sorry)

e: Also wanna stress this further that probably around 90% of mags can't afford to run anything other than Immunity Ability or Regen Moonblast / DD / moonlight / Volt, DD or moonlight potentially replaced by coverage, as it is too important to defensively check stuff like Latios. Coverage off of these sets don't come off super strong either.

proof + team dump

Untitled 34
Ice horse is really good; it is absurdly strong even without Band or Adaptability, can set up to break walls like Celesteela, and even sits on the vast majority of Magearna variants (most only carry Doom Desire as Steel stab, and evne if they do carry flash cannon you can regenerate it off). You also softcheck a huge amount of absurdly strong attackers like Specs Latios (90%), hard check all other glacial lance users, and hit Chomp/Lando with Ice Shard. Excadrill clears Mag for Latios to tear through teams, and heatran. Latios does Latios things with 2 stupider stabs that break through regular resists, even doing ~40% to standard vest mag with Psystrike. Mandibuzz checks ghosthorse / gengar as well as latios. Magearna is Flash Fire to check Victini and to pivot on Heatran to Excadrill, but otherwise its just Magearna. Talonflame helps with cleaning fast things up to Weavile, and can clean at +2. It used to be MGuard LO but then Barraskewda and Urshifu-R runs through the team (latter which still 2kos with CC). Desoland allows sets up on bulky waters like Swampert and Tapu Fini.

e: response to drampa

here it is

In my experience offensive sets, namely Magic Guard and Sheer Force, are the closest to broken. Similarly to the Double Dance sets from OU Magearna can use its bulk to set up and become extremely hard to offensively check while its power and coverage leave reliable answers limited pretty much to Volt Absorb Pex and the blobs, except Moonlight means the blobs aren't actually perfect (Skill Swap Whirlwind maybe?).

Magearna isn't super bulky outside of its immunity ability and resistances; StAAAb is veery powerful. Magic Guard can be done better by Heatran, Sheer Force better by Volcanion (or any other special attacker really), and (Triage) done by other traige mons. ig veratility but they all share similar checks.

Stored Power sets deserve a mention here for being basically impossible to wall without some way of removing boosts. Fortunately we have stuff like Prankster Pex, which can somehow tank the 20 bp Stored Power after it Hazes.

SP is also stupid hard to acutally set up

Defensive sets are just as good, maybe even better, as they bring massive amounts of utility to the table with typing and bulk. However these sets don't immediately put much pressure on the opponent, and each has its weaknesses. Moonlight as recovery sucks. Low PP makes it practical to whittle down for the average team. Regenerator sets are amazing, but lack the immunity abilities outlined as so important above, making them bait for the common powerful Fire and Ground types in the metagame.

Doom Desire can turn a defensive set into an offensive pressuring tool (along with volt switch!)

 

[avyrie]

idk prolly ban

 

[Shady Icy]

In.

 

[Tranquility]

(Won't be able to get Req's so I'll post my thoughts here)

- It's clear that it is the top mon right now in the meta, and in a lot of cases you're hurting yourself by not using it. It's very good defensive typing makes it one of the few strong answers to power forces such as Latios, Kyurem and Oblivion Wing users, and even in these more defensive sets it can still apply immense pressure with doom desire + volt switch. Offensive sets have a plethora of options too, whether it be Calm Mind, Shift Gear (or both) and good coverage + strong stabs in Steel Beam/Flash Cannon and Moonblast, or can even be a decent triage user. It speaks to lengths that Magnet Pull is decently common on offenses due to this mon, and even then it can run flash fire or shed shell to circumvent that. Despite that, I don't think it's broken or necessary unhealthy for the meta. Along with the aforementioned Magnetpull, there is a lot of strong Ground and fire types in the meta such as Garchomp, Lando-T, and Heatran just to name a few. On the more defensive side, there is Whirlwind Chansey and VA Toxapex can check a lot of the common Magearna Sets that would otherwise be problematic. Magearna was banned for being "Constricting" in dlc 1 (which I still disagreed with), as it could switch in and beat a lot of the common rockers at the time with magic bounce (TTar, Kommo-o, Palossand/Runerigus), now with a lot more offensive rockers, Magic Bounce is more of a situational ability used to beat chansey/pex. It doesn't have the same gravitational pull on the meta as it did in DLC 1, as there are a lot more ways to beat it and with less of a prevalence of Magic Bounce, it doesn't restrict the meta as much imo. If I had to vote, it would be do not ban.

 

[The Number Man]

I finally laddered my own damn meta properly! Actually leaning no ban rn, will see if i change my mind again after changing it at least 3 times now. figuring out what to do is tough. if nothing else banning magearna gives us a very good reason to clean up some of the other broken things in the meta (latios, glance, astral)

Stored Power sets deserve a mention here for being basically impossible to wall without some way of removing boosts. Fortunately we have stuff like Prankster Pex, which can somehow tank the 20 bp Stored Power after it Hazes.

I didn't mention it explicity, but stored power + fairy coverage is what makes the setup magearnas with defensive abilities so powerful. Coupled with pain split it lets magearna break through most if not all defensive checks (even chansey) that dont pack haze/phaze/spectral. Offensive checks are obv unreliable for these sets as pyroballing a ff magearna is 2 turns of free setup - which can be devastating.

EDIT: I forgot teams
Triage Lando T balance
Gale Wings lando + Triage galarticuno

Both teams feature a bounce chansey + prankpex + levitate mage defensive core which does pretty well at checking most of the things you see on ladder. Levimage esp is great, luring pesky chomps and landos into eating icebeam. Triage and GW lando might seem like memes but they are actually legit, GW lando especially since its basically clicking 120BP stab espeed coming off of 143 attack. Great set. On the GW lando team galarticuno has done almost nothing in all games ive played so it could probs be replaced - definitely w something that can clear hazards and has a good mu vs psyspammers.

 

[Gilgamesh9]

I'm voting no ban,
It makes sense that mag is getting suspected due to its high versatility. Though due to mag's typing and bulk, it allows it to check against lots of broken sets+mons (dragon maws/loti/triage etc..). I Personally think the meta is more balanced with mag in place.

 

[Ainzcrad]

 

[Dylanronpa]

Currently leaning towards no ban on magearna because it keeps a lot in check. On the other hand it might have too much versatility and is better off banned. If it does get banned though then things like latios, lando, triage users, etc get so much better.

 

[Binacle Pinnacle]

Mage's hold on this metagame is becoming too strong in my opinion. DD really breaks Mage, when paired with a powerful physical breaker, usually forces a kill. SG/ID + CM is nearly, if not as broken as the mons Mage keeps in check. Pretty much forces a 50/50 between levi and ff. Guessing the wrong one loses you the match automatically unless you have a Chansey or PrankPex. There's absolutely no reason to not run Mage, it has a role on every single play style. I don't think a mon like this is very healthy for the metagame at all, so I'll def be voting ban

 

[Aloopuriza]

no ban
ban would follow more bans so zzz

 

[manu 11]

the guy above me messed up his name

reqs:
https://imgur.com/a/GdrQqYd

idk what to vote, might update later
team i used : https://pokepast.es/55211ba23a1aad10

 

[Aloopuriza]

the guy above me messed up his name

snittchh

 

[The Number Man]

OM Mashups staff has decided to host 3 suspect tours to let people who don't have time to ladder to try for reqs. We will host a tour on the following days (details will be edited into this post as they get worked out):

Wednesday, December 9th after the Daily tour in OM Mashups (daily happens at 6PM GMT+2 so between 6:30 and 7PM GMT+2) - hosted by me.
Won by Binacleisthebest, runner up LolTrollGame (OUTB Gigas) gets reqs. Congratulations!

Proof of bracket

Friday at 4pm gmt+1 - hosted by We Wuz Nidokangz - won by Just A Jew; proof in this post

Sunday at 9pm GMT+1 - hosted by manu 11

Voting reqs will be given to the winner of each of these suspect tours. If a tour has 12 or more participants, reqs will be given to the runner up as well.

EDIT: We decided to let reqs pass to the runner up (but only to the runner up!) if the winner already has em.

 

[MG]

I am actually not a suspect ladder type but saw you just need 25 games and am bored during online uni anyway so why not trying it out
I am surprised as well getting om reqs but here we go lmao

Completely choked it at the end but oh well. Also shoutouts to The Number Man for the Team i have used, rly enjoying playing with your teams!
And another huge shoutout to manu 11 LMFAO great guy

 

[Young Killer]

Hummm maybe can check so many threats here but is overcentralizing and that is not fun, literally you can see a Magearna in every single team of ladder, so my VOTE IS BAN THAT MON FROM EXISTENCE.

Also, if you vote for Ban Mag, I will give you a cookie