Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Usage Stats in post #581]

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I've seen a hilarious tech a few times from a few different players, I call it Bootleg SmashPass. To reiterate, I didn't come up with this.

:Torkoal:
Torkoal @ Eject Pack (or shuckle whatever floats your boat)
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
-Stealth Rock
-Rapid Spin
-Lava Plume
-Shell Smash

:Clefable:
Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
-Copycat
-Moonblast
-Flamethrower
-Thunderbolt

You smash with Torkoal, then get swapped out immediately. Clef comes in, Copycats to use Shell Smash. Has to be done on something slower or on a forced switch so Clef doesn't copycat the wrong move. Boosted Clef basically kills everything, only needing prior damage on like Rotom Heat. Outruns Dragapult and everything slower if Modest. Bonus points for resisting Sucker Punch and Mach Punch, but the drop in defenses makes Clef pretty frail otherwise. Fun set to screw around with.
Eject pack is pretty underutilized right now
The smash-pass is very gimmicky (fun, but gimmicky) but the idea of a Close Combat/Leaf Storm/Overheat that functions as a one-time U-Turn is quite interesting. I haven't really tested it much but I did mess around with a Sun team that used eject pack to Overheat Torkoal out into Shiftry to avoid Shiftry taking a hit switching in.
One thing that does suck is that if your Eject Pack mon catches a defog you are forced out and you lose your Eject Pack.
 
On the subject of Shell Smash + Eject Pack, I saw a guy using SS Shuckle + Copy Cat Mimikyu, which is pretty cool as Mimikyu gets a free hit with Disguise and its stabs are unresisted together. Besides, it also gets Wood Hammer for those pesky bulky waters like Seismatoad and Unaware Quagsire which would otherwise wall it.

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Furthermore, another cool aspect of Eject Pack is that it makes stat dropping moves like Superpower, Close Combat, Leaf Storm, Over Heat, Draco Meteor, etc into a strong psuedo U-Turn on the first go, making for some interesting offensive pivot potential.

It could be useful for getting a set up sweeper in for its set up or (sigh) Dugtrio trapping.

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My input of Cloyster: Ban King’s Rock, the lack of consistent defensive counter play is cancer, and most scarfers die to Ice Shard. It’s far more deserving of a ban than Arena Trap, IMO.
 
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Scarf Hydreigon survives a +2 Ice Shard from full
Also plz calc before you post
+2 252 Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 160-189 (61 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Scarf Dugtrio also doesn't exist, sash and band are more common.
The point is the common scarfers don't outspeed Jolly
Okay, first of all, Dragapult will be switching into a Cloyster. Next, Sash Duggy also exists, and 200 BP SE Reversal hits a -1 Cloyster pretty damn hard.
Next, please bother to calculate speed tiers before posting, Scarf Hydreigon does very much outspeed Adamant Cloyster.
Scarf Hydreigon hits 486 and +2 Addy Cloyster only hits 478.
Icicle Spear breaks Sash my dude.
 
Eject pack is pretty underutilized right now
The smash-pass is very gimmicky (fun, but gimmicky) but the idea of a Close Combat/Leaf Storm/Overheat that functions as a one-time U-Turn is quite interesting. I haven't really tested it much but I did mess around with a Sun team that used eject pack to Overheat Torkoal out into Shiftry to avoid Shiftry taking a hit switching in.
One thing that does suck is that if your Eject Pack mon catches a defog you are forced out and you lose your Eject Pack.
Draco too
 
Hey there. Been off Pokemons for a while. How's the new meta? Are people enjoying it? I see the name "uncharted territory" and it makes me think people prefered things as they were before (playing with all mons and stuff).
 
Hey there. Been off Pokemons for a while. How's the new meta? Are people enjoying it? I see the name "uncharted territory" and it makes me think people prefered things as they were before (playing with all mons and stuff).
The current subforum is called Uncharted Territory because it's a new generation that hasn't been very developed/discovered yet. This isn't really the thread to ask about whether people are enjoying the metagame or not, though; there's not really any. If you're curious about what the metagame's like in particular, I'd recommend checking out this thread, the VR, and looking through the replays of SPL thus far. For in the future, you should use the Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread for questions such as these.
 
I believe Salazzle is an OU contender. Honestly, I think it’s more viable than any of the C ranked mons, and even many of the B ranked mons. It supports its teammates by pressuring Fairies and poisoning walls like no body else can, including Hazers like Toxapex and Vaporeon, and steel types like Corviknight, Aegislash and Ferrothorn. Truly, getting getting your opponent’s Hazer (or Quagsire) Toxic puts them in a nasty spot if you’re pairing Salazzle with a bulky win con like Bulk Up Corviknight, DD Renuclius or Curse Snorlax, as they cannot stay in and Haze you indefinitely while you accumulate boosts, as they die to Toxic.

——————-

So for a while I’ve been trying to find mons that get momentum against Clefable and Sylveon, two of the most annoying users of Wish+Protect. I find Rotom-H lacking in terms of staying power and mons like Centiscortch and Flareon, while interesting, are pretty niche, and easy to take advantage of.

You might be thinking a sweepy Nasty Plot set would work to break balance teams, but come on. While Salazzle has an undeniably great 117 speed stat and a very respectable 111 sp attack stat. A set like that can’t do much work in a meta full of scarfers, Dragapult, Dugtrio, Vaporeon, Seismatoad and Toxapex.

However, I’ve developed a set that is Old School Sub+Toxic Gliscor levels of annoying.

Seriously.

The set:

Salazzle (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Substitute
- Disable
- Toxic

This mon is a total menace to teams unprepared to deal with it.

Why no fire move you ask? Well it needs Sludge Wave to offensively pressure the fairies, especially Clefable (immune to Toxic) and Hatterene (which has Magic Bounce), and Prankster Taunt Grimmsnarl. Thankfully, with Corrosion Toxic, you can still punish Steel and Poison switch ins, which is actually the point.

It works like this:

Get it in on a fairy or something passive like Ferrothorn or Toxapex or even Vaporeon or Mandibuzz and throw up a sub. Most Clefables or Sylveons will go for Protect to scout you, so typically this sub is free. Since Sallazle 4x resists Moonblast and Hyper Voice, pressure the fairies out with Sludge Wave. Once they’re pushed out, start using Toxic. And with Corrosion, you can poison more obvious solutions like Corviknight or Toxapex.

(Note: while Salazzle can handedly take Moonblast or Mystic Fire, the Sp Attack drops remove its ability to 2HKO beefy Clefable and Sylveon, so try to avoid hard switches, if possible.)

Most defensive mons only have one attacking move, so when you’re in a situation against say Thunderbolt Clefable, or Toxapex or Vaporeon using Scald, or Corviknight using Brave Bird, Excadrill using EQ etc, use Disable after they break your sub and throw it up again. Then watch the player at a loss of what to do as their defensive or offensive mon slowly bleeds to death. Heh, even if Dugtrio gets in, if you’re behind a Sub, anticipate a faster EQ incoming, just use Disable and then start hitting them with Sludge Wave. Lulz.

What if they bring in a choice user, like Scarf Gengar or Hydregoin or Dracovish? Disable as they hit you and then laugh as they either have to Struggle or switch out while you throw up another sub.

(Side note: Protect+Sub let’s you Toxic stall more efficiently while preserving health, but leaves you exposed when the opposition switches. The Sub also protects Salazzle from the aforementioned Moonblast/Mystic Fire Sp Atk drops that lets it apply pressure on the Fairies. Matter of opinion, I prefer Sub+Disable, but Protect is an option.

Another alternative: Run Modest nature. This lets you hit a bit harder with SW while losing a bit of speed. You no longer outspeed unscarfed Gengar, but since a lot of them are scarfed anyway, this isn’t so bad)

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Now there is counter play to Salazzle of course. Let’s go through them!

Infiltrator Dragapult, who is naturally faster and can bypass the sub and sound move users like Boomburst Kommo-O, Hyper Voice Indedee and Heliolisk, and Toxitricity (but not Hyper Voice Sylveon or Bug Buzz users, again, 4x resists). Still. These guys can’t get in without saking something or doing a slow pivot without taking a Toxic to the face. If they do get in, remember to switch out to a counter, even when your sub is up.

Seismatoad, Gastrodon and Quagsire who have two STABs that can break the sub, but still eats a Toxic. Since Toad lacks recovery, this pretty much invalidates it as a counter to your other mons, and Gastro and Quag are pressured by their status.

Volt Switchers, like the Rotoms, taking out the Sub (not U-Turn though, we still have that handy 4x resist to Bug). If they aren’t scarfed, they’re still eating a SW or a Toxic. But! This is exactly why Salazzle is a great partner for Bulk Up Corviknight. Rotom can only take on SW before it can no longer switch in, on once that happens, Corvi is usually in a good spot to win the game, with its main counter dead or weakened.

Dugtrio, if our sub is down, outspeeds and murders you, obviously.

Aromatherapy? Kinda. Since most of these users are Fairy or Grass types, they can’t switch in to Salazzle to heal its mates, because of that strong SW threat.

You might think your multi-hit attackers like Cloyster or the rare Cincinno would work to force Salazzle out but again, they can’t get in without getting hit by Toxic, or otherwise, dying to SW. Salazzle outspeeds them both.

Renuclius, Sigilpyph and Xatu who are immune to Toxic damage, can set up with Calm Mind or heal off SW damage, and threaten us with Psychic stab or coverage moves. But again, they’re all slower than Salazzle so again, Disable that Psychic STAB, so if they don’t have coverage moves, again, they’re in for a hard time.

And then the best actual counters:

Rest users like Snorlax and Centiscortch, who tank SW with ease and don’t care about Toxic, at all. These are the true counters who render Salazzle useless.

And finally, speed modifying strats like Sticky Web, Trick Room and Tailwind, which ruin Salazzle’s great 117 speed tier.


And as another thing to note, Salazzle is prone to letting the opposition set up hazards on it, so always bring a Defogger or Spinner if you don’t want to get overwhelmed by those.

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To see all this in practice: here’s a game of Salazzle doing some work, against Dragapult Excadrill and Cloyster, all viable/would be checks, and putting DD Renuclius in a position to win the game.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1060127902
 
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To add to the Eject Pack discussion, I've been using this to mixed results:
Rotom-Heat @ Eject Pack
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Overheat
- Volt Switch
If you haven't seen my Toad-busting Pinch set, see the Arena Trap discussion thread. If you don't care enough to look, here's the short of it:
Trapinch @ Eviolite
Quiet Nature
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 8 Def / 252 SpA / 248 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
- First Impression
- Earthquake
- Giga Drain
- Superpower
0 SpA Seismitoad Scald vs. 0 HP / 248 SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 128-152 (55.4 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Seismitoad Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Trapinch: 127-150 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Trapinch Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 240-284 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (51.9 - 61.4% recovered)
The above Rotom set is how I enable it besides just doubling out of Vish (which is surprisingly easy). Toads like to block Volt Switches, so Overheat+EP is an alternative way to pivot out of Toad. The one catch is it has to be on the switch-in, so if your opponent has an alternative Ground mon, start by VoltSwitchSpamming then observe how your opponent reacts. If they are switching Toad into it, an Overheat may well be worth a shot. Just be careful switching into Corv. That can be slightly embarrassing to switch in, get ejected, and have to switch back in again...
 
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