Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

[TheRuffletKid]

I don't see Diggersby in the viable list and I find it odd since it is really powerful. Can anyone explain to me why it is not viable?

Sure, Diggersby's got its Huge Power ability that allows it to hit like a truck, but with it's terrible Speed stat, it rarely will. Combine that with how busted and prevalent Gyarados and Hawlucha are and you've got yourself a lot of threats that are out for your blood. I mean, you can always just Dynamax your Diggersby(I mean most of them run Band so who wouldn't seize the opportunity)and then just spam Max Strike to lower your opponent's Speed while at the same time dealing truckloads of damage, but that's really all you can do. Really none of Band Diggersby's moves boost its stats and if you compare that with the other better Dynamax users, this is really holding Diggersby back. Oh, and there's also Quick Attack but what's that gonna do anyways?!

This is my reply to your question, I hope you can forgive my possible idiocy 'cos hey, what do I know, I'm just a low ladder nobody.

 

[Kav]

I've literally only seen one digger thus far but it was carrying bounce to get the speed boost from airstream. on paper it can also run hammer arm to get attack boosts, but coverage is probably more important.

 

[onatolentino]

Sure, Diggersby's got its Huge Power ability that allows it to hit like a truck, but with it's terrible Speed stat, it rarely will. Combine that with how busted and prevalent Gyarados and Hawlucha are and you've got yourself a lot of threats that are out for your blood. I mean, you can always just Dynamax your Diggersby(I mean most of them run Band so who wouldn't seize the opportunity)and then just spam Max Strike to lower your opponent's Speed while at the same time dealing truckloads of damage, but that's really all you can do. Really none of Band Diggersby's moves boost its stats and if you compare that with the other better Dynamax users, this is really holding Diggersby back. Oh, and there's also Quick Attack but what's that gonna do anyways?!

This is my reply to your question, I hope you can forgive my possible idiocy 'cos hey, what do I know, I'm just a low ladder nobody.

I'm am an even lower ladder nobody that appreciates your reply. Thanks.

About special tanks, what is recommended rn besides Toxapex?

 

[TheRuffletKid]

I'm am an even lower ladder nobody that appreciates your reply. Thanks.

About special tanks, what is recommended rn besides Toxapex?

Easy. Galarian Corsola.

Corsola-Galar @ Eviolite
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Will-O-Wisp
- Strength Sap
- Night Shade

One look at this things moveset would already tell you that this thing's gonna be utterly stupid, and in a good way too! Strength Sap is always useful as a form of recovery especially against 'mons like the feared Gyarados, in which it can just take its precious Attack boost from Dragon Dance away while at the same time healing its HP by a lot. But bay in mind that you cannot switch Corsola directly into a Dynamaxed Pokemon, so you'll need someone to faint beforehand or just use a slow U-Turn/Volt Switch user if that's what on the field at the moment. Plus if Strength Sap doesn't work there's always Will-o-Wisp.

Oh yeah, and it gets Stealth Rock so that's pretty sweet.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

This is a game changer!! They freaking nerfed Defiant and Competitive!

 

[Charmflash]

So I was gonna get #1 before posting this, but the current #1 is at 1715 & I'm tired of bouncing between 1600-1670 (been doing so for four hours now), playing against people roughly ~200 points below me. Anyway I hope you can appreciate the metagame take of #2 as well.


EDIT: Nvm I did it

First of all I'd like to say that throughout my laddering session I've become more and more sympathetic towards talah 's arguments against Dynamax, the value it puts on short-term is absurd, it is preventing many other skills that people enjoy expressing from shining. Additionally, I'm confident that a post-Dynamax metagame will have plenty of ways to break through fat builds, unlike my initial assumption here, I'll be going over them somewhere in this post.

The King
This Pokemon a complete joke. The combination of Gorilla Tactics + Choice Band lets it 2hko everything in the tier (even physdef Pyukumuku), and its good speed tier allows it to outspeed the majority of the metagame, such as the two Rotom formations and Excadrill. In addition to the almighty Choice Band set, Darmanitan can also run Choice Scarf and be plenty strong, while becoming even more of a threat to offensively oriented teams.

The Volt Switchers
If you are facing BO on high ladder, chances are you'll encounter either one of these. Due to the significant cut-down on Ground-types Volt Switch is near impossible to block, allowing the rotom formations to generate momentum like crazy. Since Rotom doesn't learn Pain Split anymore you usually won't find them on balanced / stall builds, but they could run Rest(+Talk). Trick is a fantastic option since Mega-Stones and Z-Crystals are no more, allowing you to frequently cripple an opposing Pokemon. This is a defensive Choice Scarf Rotom-Heat set I ran, it outspeeds up to Mew (which most importantly includes Darmanitan and Togekiss), investing the remaining EV's into physical bulk.

The Ground Types
Ground-type variety is very lackluster in Sword & Shield, but these three are gonna do a great job. At least this makes your choice very simple: Seismitoad is your man for offensive teams, while Hippowdon is usually the pick for defensive ones. Excadrill can fulfill a variety of roles ranging from utility spin attacker to suicide lead. I wanna go a bit more in-depth on the former two however. Seismitoad can block both Rotom's Volt Switch and has access to Stealth Rock as well as Toxic and Scald. I've even seen some Rest variants running around. The water immunity also provides you with a solid answer to Dracovish, one of the scariest breakers in the tier. Hippowdon also has access to Stealth Rock and Toxic, but in addition to that he gets Slack Off and Whirlwind, which doesn't sound impressive at first but it is as pivotal in this Substitute-filled meta as it is rare.

The Steel Types
Corviknight is perhaps the best Pokemon in the tier if we don't count Darmanitan. It can pull off around 10 sets, and the defensive utility it provides is truly outstanding. He is the only common Pressure user in the tier, and can win the Defog war against any Stealth Rock setter, unless of course your opponent switches their own Corviknight in whenever you Defog. Besides Defog, this Pokemon also has access to U-turn, Bulk Up, Power Trip, Brave Bird, Taunt, and makes a mean Substitute user. Ferrothorn is the only common Spikes user in the tier, and has kept his access to Knock Off as well as Toxic. Personally I prefer physically defensive variants for things like Gyarados, Dracovish and rain Sweeper. Aegislash is surprisingly average, not offering a whole lot in terms of defensive utility whilst having solid counterplay like SpD Hippowdon, Mandibuzz, Seismitoad etc.. Perhaps this slump is also due to the fact that he doesn't make the best use of Dynamax, but at least his Shadow Balls still hit relatively hard, and offensive double dance sets still pack a punch.

Pex
He is back and dominating like many of us suspected he would. Pex is not without flaws, however. Pokemon have been using Substitute in order to dodge the status Pex can spread while not allowing Ditto to copy them. Some examples would be Hydreigon, Togekiss, Dragapult, Corviknight, and sometimes Gyarados. Nevertheless, his ability to spread Status via Scald/Toxic/Toxic Spikes/Baneful Bunker, his great defensive stats, instant recovery, and his access to Haze + Regenerator have cemented him as the guy to beat in many regards.

Speed Control
Ditto finds himself on every third team to counteract the fatal Dynamax setup, and he's really good at it. Choice Scarf Dragapult is also able to outspeed most things even after a boost or two, so he is a cool alternative to Ditto. However, Scarf is not all Dragapult can do, in fact he's pretty versatile, able to pull off a Choice Specs set, or even a Sub Wisp one. Dragapult is also able to ignore the common Substitutes with Infiltrator or Dragon Darts, which is particularly useful against Hydreigon.

Setup Sweeper
Hydreigon gained a few tools in Sword & Shield, the most important one being Nasty Plot. Due to the Pokemon removal his speed is now top-notch, only behind a very select few. My favorite set is this one, Dark Pulse has fantastic neutral coverage, only really requiring help against fairies. Togekiss is usually running the exact same set with different coverage options. It is slightly slower and doesnt make use of Substitute as well, but it has the 60% flinch chance, and can boost it's speed via Dynamax. While they also lost Roost, both of these Pokemon significantly benefited from the removal of Chansey/Blissey. On another note, Togekiss can run Morning Sun if it so chooses. Gyarados gained Power Whip and abuses Dynamax to a disgusting degree, partly due to moxie. Unfortunately for it, Ditto can end up countersweeping very easily, but you shouldnt make the mistake of ever underestimating this things sweeping capabilities.

Magic
I've grouped these Pokemon together since they share an impressive amount of common traits. They are all special attackers, incredibly hard to switch into, relatively slow, and fuck with hazards in some way. Clefable has a few Magic Guard sets it can pull off but the one I'd like to focus on here would be LO 3 attacks Moonlight. The only common Pokemon that can switch into that is SpD Corviknight, and the moment you Dynamax or paralyze it with Thunder even that loses. Hatterene does a mean OTR set and I've also used this RestTalk set on one of my bulkier teams. Reuniclus plays very similarly to Clefable with either LO 3 attacks or Calm Mind, but it gives more leeway to certain things such as Hydreigon and Aegislash.

The Wallbreakers
These require special attention since they have a solid speed tier, and obliterate almost everything with their unique properties. Ideally you want to try and outspeed these, but if you cannot then you should pack a Water immunity / physically defensive Ferrothorn or Toxapex for Dracovish & a Boomburst resist for Toxtricity, Protect can help you scout against Choice Specs.

Some Useful Fat Guys
Mandibuzz makes great use of the new Boots item & has a few cute tools in its arsenal, such as Foul Play, Knock Off, Toxic, Roost, Defog, U-Turn. Tyranitar can offer you sand, good special defense, Stealth Rock, or even a more offensive Pokemon if you so choose. Jellicent is a bit of a weird one but his ability to pivot into Darmanitan and Dracovish, coupled with his access to Taunt and other good moves make for a solid Pokemon. Corsola is another Pokemon with a powerful movepool, having Stealth Rock, WoW, Strength Sap, and Hex as well as Night Shade in it's arsenal. It is noteworthy that Corsola and Jellicent can block Rapid Spin.

/

Cheesy Cheese
Hyper Offense is still going strong. Between Ribombee, Mew, and Excadrill the suicide leads usually do what you want them to do. Bisharp is still able to punish Defog, despite losing Knock Off as well as Pursuit. There are obviously a number of things you can run on these teams, but Hawlucha and Mimikyu are two very annoying options in their own right.

Unaware
These guys can be used over Ditto/Dragapult on defensive teams.

Mod Edit: It appears Unaware Clef is illegal so I edited it out to prevent confusion. Sorry.

Honorable Mentions

Rain synergizes exceptionally well with Dynamax, but hasnt really found it's footing yet, since there are so many other things to abuse, which dont require you to play a certain way. Despite that, I think that it is a bit underexplored and should have a place in the meta once everything settles down a bit.

Bit of a weird one. It took us an entire generation to figure out what to do with Kommo-o during Sun & Moon, and it's looking like he has 15 different sets once again. Between Stealth Rock, three considerable abilities that can give him a variety of relevant immunities, and respectable offensive sets, Kommo-o seems to be a jack of all trades once more. He is one of the most reliable answers to Toxtricity, and can counter non-Draco Meteor Hydreigon with ease.

I honestly don't really know what to make of this Pokemon but it has an insane amount of usage & a bunch of tricks up it's sleeve like Screens or even more self-centered sets, I'd just like to acknowledge it here.

This Pokemon does what it always did. Breaks through Clefable, Ferrothorn, Toxapex & offers strong priority, not much to say here.

Court Change is a complete joke of a move, and the rest of it's movepool is pretty fantastic as well, it gets Pyro Ball, HJK, U-turn, Zen etc.. Ridiculous speed for this metagame, unfortunately it doesnt offer much defensively, but pretty cool Pokemon overall, considering it doesn't even get Libero yet.

Durant is a phenomenal Dynamax abuser due to Hustle, as the Dynamax moves bypass any accuracy checks but keep the additional Power. It also has tremendous speed to go with that.

Conk got Close Combat to play with and for some reason its also able to use Defog. Insanely dangerous offensive threat.

This thing gets Knock Off & has access to Guts+ STAB Facade, which hits for unreal damage. He shares a speed tier with Darmanitan and Indeedee, allowing him to outspeed things like the Rotoms, Excadrill and Togekiss.

Eldegoss is not a common face right now, but Regenerator + Rapid Spin has the potential to become interesting, particularly in a post-Dynamax world. His movepool is pretty mediocre otherwise and mostly limited to Grass-type attacks, but he does get Pollen Puff to hit Leech/Sleep Powder immunities.

There are quite a few other decent Pokemon going around, but these ones were what I've encountered/used the most & to the best results. For some closing remarks, I hope that we can resolve the Dynamax issue soon, so that the metagame can keep evolving & I dont think Darmanitan-Galar has a future either.

 

[Project_Mars]

This is a game changer!! They freaking nerfed Defiant and Competitive!

Looks like it remembers that it's your Sitcky Webs and counts it as a self-drop.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

Looks like it remembers that it's your Sitcky Webs and counts it as a self-drop.

It's an unnecessary nerf, cause it was a cheese strat that people liked to do

 

[Leucopis]

I know much has already been said about dynamax but I just wated to chime in because many posts seem to boild down to ''dynamax is broken becaus it obviously is so lets just ban it'' and that is oversimplifying it a little in my opinion. See tab below to get my thoughts on that.

Dynamax thoughts

As many have said, its still WAY to early to truly make a decision on dynamax and how to deal with it. Obviously, something need to be done, the main questions is what should be done, how do we go about doing it, and when do we do it. Many comparisons have also been made with megas and z-moves, both in how the mechanics function and how to deal with them. I'll use those examples in my thought process as to how I think we should go about dealing with dmax. Of course, I understand how this is completely different. Dmax is basically what would happen is megas fused with z-moves and then got juiced up on the most insane steroids. But since we've never experienced anything like this before, megas and z-moves are the closest and most recent comparisons we can make. Also, since neither mechanic was outright banned, I'll go with the assumption that they are not inherently ban worthy (wether z-moves SHOULD have been banned is an other issue and not the focus here).
The centralizing aspect is not a very good agument against dmax in my oppinion. A gameplay mechanic is going to be centralizing by definition becaus that is how you play the game. By that logic, we should ban swithing because every game is overcentralized on that mechanic. The argument of overcentralizing 3 specific turns and creating a sort of sub battle within the battle does have merit however. I'm just tired of people claiming that we need to ban dmax ''cuz u basicaly have to dmax every game'' without fleshing out their reasoning.
I dont find the unpredictability of dmax to be the best argument against it either. Yes any mon can dmax at any time, but the same could be said about z-moves. Any mon could hold a z-crystal and the user could pull the trigger at any time. That said, any good player could reasonably assume what their opponents z-mon was from team preview and/or some easy scouting early game. Likewise, you can pretty much guess which mon your opponent will try to dmax to gain the upper hand. The issue with dmax is that since its not tied to a held item, the ''chosen'' dmaxer can change on the fly. While this does add a non negligeable amount of unpredictability, we need to ask ourselves ''Does this make the machanic totally random?''. What we deem to be uncompetitve is anything that takes ''more skillfull play'' out of the game. Once the dust settles (assuming it does), will the more skillfull player be able to reasonably predict the opposing dmax in the same way that they could reasonably predict the opposing z-move last gen? The idea of ''reasonably predict'' is quite vague, but this just goes to show how the unpredictability issue is not as obvious as it might first seem.
Now how do we go about dealing with dmax. When megas were 1st introduced, some were clearly busted (Kang and Gengar come to mind). The solution was not to ban the entire mega evolution mechanic, but rather to simply ban the problemeatic mons (or rather the mega stone but the effect is relatively similar). Same thing with z-moves. I can't recall any mon that was banned from OU specifically for its abuse of z-moves, but I've heard this to be a thing in some lower tiers. In those cases, the z-mechanic was not banned but rather the specific pokemon was removed. I think its at least worth a shot to remove some of the dmax abusers and see what happens. That way, we'll have our definitive answer as to wether the problem lies within the mechanic itself or the mons who abuse it. If banning Hawluchan and friends just leads to other pokemon filling the void and completly trashing everyting then we can proceed with ridding ourselves of the mechanic entirely. I know this will take time, but if we just outright ban dmax, the ''what if...'' thought will always linger in the back of our minds and we'll never truly get closure on the issue. The Arena Trap ban last gen is a good example. We suspected Dugtrio and ruled to keep it in the tier because the underlying problem was not Duggy but rather Arena Trap. Suspecting Duggy to not ban it to then just suspect and ban Arena Trap might seem as a huge waste of time, but it alowed us to prove where the true problem really lied. This is why I think bannig some mons should be a first step before ruling on wether or not to ban dmax. Also, when I think back on other bans/suspect tests, the argument of ''we ban pokemon, not moves/abilities/whatever'' always seems to come up. I know some more complexe bans have been used but we actively try to avoid them as much as possible and require a large body of evidence before going down that route. Some of the proposed ideas here are insanely convoluted. No one wants to go down the hyper complexe route like in gen 5 banning swift swim + drizzle. Likewise, when sand rush Excadrill was deemed to much to handle, we banned Drill, not weather as a whole. Either we ban some mons who abuse dmax cus the mechanic becomes balanced without them, either we ban the whole thing cuz the mechanic is broken at its core.

Again just my opinions and rambling thoughts. Take what you will.

So as to not make this post entirely focused on how to deal with dmax policy wise, here are some thoughts on how to deal with the mechanic in an actual game. Of course, none of these ideas/strategies/playstyles lead to an auto win and you still need a well built team and to make some good plays in the actuall game to win. I just find them to be interesting trends that seem to be on the rise and make for somewhat effective counterplay to dmax.

One of the biggest problems is the snowballing effect of certain sweepers and the couter-sweep potential Ditto brings. I've started to see some rather creative ways to deal (to a certain extent) with some of these issues. The most obvious strategy seems to be simply negating stat boosts with unnaware. Clef was an amazing user of this but now that the unreleased ststus of its hidden ability has been confirmed and implemented, this leaves us with only Quag as a viable user. I don't think we will see a spike in Quag usage, but its still worth taking a few minutes to think about.

Another strategy I've been seing more of is bulky set-up (bulk up, calm mind, etc.). A good example is Corviknight. Corv initially ran defensive defog sets (and still does) but Bulk up sets are becoming more and more popular (while I get that saying a mons main set was X but is now shifting to Y sounds kinda dumb when the game is less than 2 weeks old, this is what I've been seing in forums and on ladder). Corv is also an amazing user of this strategy due to Pressure. This is interesting since it allows you to sort of negate offensive boosts by boosting your defenses along side them, but also helps deal with an other problem being Ditto. Ditto cant readily counter-sweep since your increased bulk means they have to fish for a crit in order to break through. And since Ditto only has limited pp and is usually locked with scarf, it will inevitably be forced out at some point. (or in a last mon scenario, will struggle). Other popular examples of this are Bulk Up Grimmsnarl and Calm Mind/Cosmic Power Clefable and I'm sure more will come as we get a better grasp on this new meta.

A rise in screens is also a way of dealing with offensive juggernauts. The damage reduction is absolutely invaluable and since screens last longer than dmax (even without light clay), you don't have be so perfect in predicting when your opponent will pull the trigger. This alos solves the Ditto scenario since you're protected but not the Ditto. The fact that good mons such as Grimmsnarl and Dragapult get dual screens and the reduced distribution of defog aid to strenght this strategy.

A more creative ''strategy'' I've seen was a player crippling a Gyarados by giving it a Lagging Tail with a Switcheroo Whimsicott. While this is obviously a gimmick, I find the concept of giving your opponent an undesirable item in oder to cripple them an interesting idea in principle. I doubt this will become a legit strategy but hey, food for thought.

 

[Project_Mars]

It's an unnecessary nerf, cause it was a cheese strat that people liked to do

Defiant/Competitive never triggered off of stuff like Superpower/Leaf Storm, nor did it trigger off allies lowering your stats. This is consistent with how it has always worked.

 

[Colonel M]

I have some unfortunate news about Clefable - it seems like the Hidden Ability (which would be Unaware) is not possible to get, so it is incorrectly in the simulator if it's still there as of right now.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...chanics-research.3655528/page-22#post-8291236

There's a few others such as Prankster Leipard and Simple Swoobat (really small but I guess they may matter to someone).

This was just discovered yesterday in-depth so it's understanding how it could be missed.

 

[DiscoDucky]

According to a Reddit post, it seems like Gigantimax is banned from Competitive Online for Sword and Shield. Don't know what those implications are for Smogon competitive.

Reddit Post here

 

[KamenOH]

Just to piggyback off what others have been saying, I don't think Dynamaxing should be banned yet. There are potential strategies not yet discovered, and I feel as though that is true for all things banned before their time (shadow tag and other non-box legendary quickbans). Ditto is a popular cork to help clog the sweeping dynamax drain.
I also think that the notion of "unpredictability" is absurd, for it shouldn't matter what the opponent does, so long as you as a player are able to conceive a potential way to get past that.
I personally like this newer offensive-orientated meta, and the fact that it isn't as slow as older metas. Hazards aren't as prominent, because if you are able to set up your sweeper, the opponent won't be able to set up hazards, and if you have the sweeper going, you won't need to switch out unless somehow they manage to stop you.
If I could vote on banning dynamax, I would vote not to ban.

 

[Vengeance417]

According to a Reddit post, it seems like Gigantimax is banned from Competitive Online for Sword and Shield. Don't know what those implications are for Smogon competitive.

Reddit Post here

Gigantamax is probably just banned from the Battle Stadium ladder (idk WHY, but ok GF) but still usable in link battles.

edit: I’m assuming this has something to do with how rare the GMax forms are ingame and that they’re essentially event-based. For instance, I believe Toxtricity’s GMax form isn’t out yet, and the ones that aren’t a part of the rotation event atm are extremely hard to spawn.

 

[Pettdumm]

I like the combination of Galar Weezing with Misty Surge and Misty Seed Unburden Hawlucha
I've been using this sets:

Weezing-Galar @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Pain Split
- Toxic Spikes
- Sludge Wave
- Strange Steam

Hawlucha @ Misty Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Acrobatics
- Iron Head

Do you have any Optimizations?

 

[Cuddly]

To try and step away from Dynamax discussion, should Darmanitan-G/Gorilla Tactics, and Hawlucha be suspect tested in the future?

Imo
Darmanitan-G is fine without Dynamaxing negating the choice lock.
Gorilla Tactics is very exploitable. There are tons of walls that tank any non-CB version of Darmanitan-G, even with the limited number of Pokemon. And CB versions are easily revenge killed if your opponent predicts right.
Zen Mode can be good since Darmanitan-G forces a lot of switches, but having Unaware Pyukumuku or Quagsire on your team makes dealing with it a breeze.
In fact, Pyukumuku is the most universal counter to Darmanitan-G since is can deal with all its moves in all its incarnations most of the time. Even with CB+GT Earthquake, Darm needs high rolls and since it’s locked into Earthquake, you can go into anything immune or resistant to Earthquake with no fear, forcing Darmanitan out and to take more Stealth Rock Damage.

Although I can see why people would think being forced to run Pyukumuke with a Flying or Grass type or a levitator in order to deal with all versions of the Ice Monkey Tower Darmanitan-G.
Although this also wouldn’t a problem without Gorilla Tactics since Zen Mode is far less scary without the impending threat of a free CB off of a 140 Atk.
So I would say nah to Suspecting Darmanitan-G itself, but maybe Gorilla Tactics.


As for Hawlucha, with the removal of so many of its checks, Hawlucha deserves a suspect even without Dynamaxing.
Back in Generation 7, Hawlucha was great, but so was the rest of the tier and so were its checks.
Among all Pokemon, only the Aegislash line, Raichu-A (which isn’t even out yet), Rotom-regular/Fan, and the Toxtricity line resist its STABs.
Zapdos is gone
Ash-Greninja is gone
Mega Slowbro is gone
Mega Aggron is gone
Mega Pinsir is gone
Tapu Koko is gone
Celesteela is gone
etc.
Sure some of its counters survived the culling, but the only check it got back was Corsola-G and technically Aegislash if it doesn’t get banned.

One could say that the new Terrain Setters are worse, but they are still good on their own and the lower powerlevel means they can do a number to the opponent’s team on their own.
After Dynamax is suspected, I would say Hawlucha needs one after that too.

 

[Ema Skye]

In a Dynamax-less world, I think Darm is fine. It struggles to break through a lot of bulky Waters due to 4MSS (Needs EQ for Pex/Jelly, Needs Superpower for Rotom-Wash) as well as Rotom-Heat (also needs Superpower - Rotom-Heat + Pex/Jelly shuts down every Darm set). Since it's always locked into a move, predictions make it easier to deal with, provided a solid pivot core (WashTom+Ghost, Pex/Jelly+HeatTom). Keeping the hazards down is crucial since it will be coming in and out with its SR weakness (shotout to Jelly for checking Darm and blocking spin - Defiant is trickier since Bisharp kinda sucks without Knock Off). Also outspeeding base 95 is important, and it might be a good idea to ensure your Scarfer outspeeds +1 base 95 (for ScarfDarm). [also can we please call it SnowManitan?]

Lucha still seems really stupid even without max. Scarf Indeedee is underrated right now and pairs great with it (Pincurchin is ass and Weezing loves Levitate too much). Aegislash would be the only thing keeping it in check (and in a post-dynamax meta, Aegislash might be too much again).

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

In a Dynamax-less world, I think Darm is fine. It struggles to break through a lot of bulky Waters due to 4MSS (Needs EQ for Pex/Jelly, Needs Superpower for Rotom-Wash) as well as Rotom-Heat (also needs Superpower - Rotom-Heat + Pex/Jelly shuts down every Darm set). Since it's always locked into a move, predictions make it easier to deal with, provided a solid pivot core (WashTom+Ghost, Pex/Jelly+HeatTom). Keeping the hazards down is crucial since it will be coming in and out with its SR weakness (shotout to Jelly for checking Darm and blocking spin - Defiant is trickier since Bisharp kinda sucks without Knock Off). Also outspeeding base 95 is important, and it might be a good idea to ensure your Scarfer outspeeds +1 base 95 (for ScarfDarm). [also can we please call it SnowManitan?]

Lucha still seems really stupid even without max. Scarf Indeedee is underrated right now and pairs great with it (Pincurchin is ass and Weezing loves Levitate too much). Aegislash would be the only thing keeping it in check (and in a post-dynamax meta, Aegislash might be too much again).

Uturn does 70% to rotom what the fuck are you talking about lmao. EQ is on nearly every single set and scarf eq does fine to be pex it's pretty easy. it has 0 switch ins and being locked into icicle crash isnt bad especially when ur doing 50% on a resisted hit
jellicent is not a good mon and having that to try and counter darm is lowkey goofy considering that EQ does over 50% to it plus ur using jellicent

 

[Ema Skye]

Uturn does 70% to rotom what the fuck are you talking about lmao. EQ is on nearly every single set and scarf eq does fine to be pex it's pretty easy. it has 0 switch ins and being locked into icicle crash isnt bad especially when ur doing 50% on a resisted hit
jellicent is not a good mon and having that to try and counter darm is lowkey goofy considering that EQ does over 50% to it plus ur using jellicent

(+1 simulates Tactics since I can't find a calculator with the ability on it)

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 175-206 (43.3 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 124-147 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-H: 113-133 (37.2 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Jelly is actually good now because of Strength Sap. It comes in on Darm and saps, negating the Band and forcing Darm out. If Darm tries to be ballsy, it gets burnt and is basically useless then. It can do this every time because Strength Sap is a ridiculous move.

252 Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 127-151 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery [this does more than ThunderPunch unless Terrain is up)
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rindo Berry Jellicent: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

It can beat two of the strongest Dynamax Pokemon as well. It denies Hawlucha Max Knuckle which makes it substantially harder to snowball with. Gyarados is a bit more flimsy of a check but considering how stupidly strong Gyarados is, the fact that Jelly can actually beat it via Strength Sap is huge considering Gyara is a candidate for the strongest mon in OU now.

Not to mention Water Absorb turns it into a check for Barraskewda and Dracovish as well. This mon checks some of the strongest physical attackers in a single slot; it's absolutely viable in this meta.

 

[Monsoon117]

In a Dynamax-less world, I think Darm is fine. It struggles to break through a lot of bulky Waters due to 4MSS (Needs EQ for Pex/Jelly, Needs Superpower for Rotom-Wash) as well as Rotom-Heat (also needs Superpower - Rotom-Heat + Pex/Jelly shuts down every Darm set). Since it's always locked into a move, predictions make it easier to deal with, provided a solid pivot core (WashTom+Ghost, Pex/Jelly+HeatTom). Keeping the hazards down is crucial since it will be coming in and out with its SR weakness (shotout to Jelly for checking Darm and blocking spin - Defiant is trickier since Bisharp kinda sucks without Knock Off). Also outspeeding base 95 is important, and it might be a good idea to ensure your Scarfer outspeeds +1 base 95 (for ScarfDarm). [also can we please call it SnowManitan?]

Lucha still seems really stupid even without max. Scarf Indeedee is underrated right now and pairs great with it (Pincurchin is ass and Weezing loves Levitate too much). Aegislash would be the only thing keeping it in check (and in a post-dynamax meta, Aegislash might be too much again).

I just don't understand this reasoning. Rotom-Wash and Rotom-Heat versus a banded set, assuming very defensive builds:

Damage Calcs

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan U-turn vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Heat: 124-147 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

It obviously doesn't need coverage against these mons since they take enormous damage from just Darm's stabs. Rotom needs to run a choice scarf set to outrun Darm unless the darm's adamant and the rotom if 224 speed with a speed enhancing nature. At that point:

Damage Calcs

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan U-turn vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Rotom-Wash: 182-215 (59.8 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Rotom-Heat: 165-195 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rotom heat needs heavy duty boots so it doesn't get worn down by rocks, and rotom wash would need to run a bulky scarf set just to force Darm out, assuming it doesn't just U-turn for momentum. As for saying it gets shut down by Rotom Heat plus jellicent/pex core:

Damage Calcs

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 256-302 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 304-358 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That core is one prediction away from being blown apart by the standard set. It can also just U-turn into a different threat that forces these guys out. Even without Dynamaxing, Darm is terrifying and has very, very limited counterplay even when you dedicate 2 teamslots against him. I think dismissing his threat as easily handled by a defensive core really undersells how centralizing the mons is, with or without dynamaxing.

I completely agree with the lucha argument though. Once rillaboom's secret ability is released, Lucha will just SD and blow most teams apart with ease. Even without a solid terrain setter, Lucha is very threatening with a white herb close combat set or a sky attack red herb set, the former of which is a reasonable fallback if dynamax gets banned. It won't be nearly as broken as the current set running around since lucha won't be so bulky, making him vulnerable to priority at least after multiple close combats and non doubled health from dynamaxing.

The comment above that also mentions pyukumuku being a reliable answer to all incarnations of the current darm sets:

Damage Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 170-201 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 155-183 (49.3 - 58.2%) -- 65.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I used hustle since a +1 is ignored in the calc due to unaware, and hustle mimics gorilla tactics. Pyuku can't even survive a 2HKO from Jolly darmanitan reliably. So the answer is a solid defense core that resists most of his moves, paired with a rock solid defogger that doesn't let him switch in for free. Simple, just dedicate 3 team slots and you're good. Problem solved.

Obviously having hazard control is important for a lot of teams, but I think my point stands regardless. Pyuku being an answer isn't true. A check is supposed to be able to switch in then threaten to KO back. That doesn't exist for darmanitan at all, even with cherry picked sets and pokemon. IMO, get it out of here along with Dynamax.

 

[Zentrius]

is there any threat that i am missing that should be accounted for by running superpower over rock slide on darmanitan? i dont have the calcs but i think eq + rock slide is way more reliable as coverage since it covers the rotom-h+jelli+pex core as a whole and doesnt rely on prediction into jellicent, plus it doesnt actually mandate to switch out after using the move since you dont lose stats at all and the flinch chance is always nice to have

 

[Monsoon117]

(+1 simulates Tactics since I can't find a calculator with the ability on it)

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 175-206 (43.3 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 124-147 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-H: 113-133 (37.2 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Jelly is actually good now because of Strength Sap. It comes in on Darm and saps, negating the Band and forcing Darm out. If Darm tries to be ballsy, it gets burnt and is basically useless then. It can do this every time because Strength Sap is a ridiculous move.

252 Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 127-151 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery [this does more than ThunderPunch unless Terrain is up)
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rindo Berry Jellicent: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

It can beat two of the strongest Dynamax Pokemon as well. It denies Hawlucha Max Knuckle which makes it substantially harder to snowball with. Gyarados is a bit more flimsy of a check but considering how stupidly strong Gyarados is, the fact that Jelly can actually beat it via Strength Sap is huge considering Gyara is a candidate for the strongest mon in OU now.

Not to mention Water Absorb turns it into a check for Barraskewda and Dracovish as well. This mon checks some of the strongest physical attackers in a single slot; it's absolutely viable in this meta.

Alright, so some of these calcs are strange. For starters, gyarodos doesn't need to power whip to take out jellicent. It just needs rocks on the field. Gyarodos uses dragon dance, then it uses the boosted bounce, which is 130 BP. Also, gyarodos should probably be running life orb for that extra oomph. There's no reason for it not too. Assuming that:

Damage Calcs with Rocks Up

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Bounce(130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 363-426 (89.8 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

With rocks, it ohkoes. So it still gets a speed boost and attack boost from max airstream and moxie respectively. It's set up fodder once rocks are up. Maybe you can surprise some people with rindo berry if they don't know this calc, but I'm letting people know before they put jellicent on their team while expecting an answer to gyarodos that isn't ditto. Put ditto on your team to threaten the reverse sweep. That's about the only answer outside of Galarian Corsola, who can actually take this hit and then some. (Corsola has 60/100 physical bulk with a +1 from eviolite. I changed its typing to ghost from water and rock)

Damage Calcs

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Bounce vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 195-230 (60.1 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Assuming the garodos uses DD then super bounce, Corsola can strength sap the gyarodos down till dynamax ends. I think Jellicent is an underrated threat, but come on guys, it's not an answer to these monsters that are running around at the peak of OU. These calcs are being tailor made for a very specific scenario that essentially relies on a sick prediction and lack of knowledge from your opponent's part. It's a solid defensive check to some mons, but it just gets blown away by the majority of dynamaxers, and it isn't fast enough to counter anyone that SD's.

If dynamax gets banned, then something jellicent does do well is offer a water immunity for dracovish. That's pretty valuable for defensive teams looking for a Dracovish answer, though I think siesmitoad is a better answer since it isn't 2HKoed by crunch.

 

[Rarycaris]

It's like the developers consciously tried to prevent defensive play against dynamaxed mons by cherrypicking+disabling mechanics which would make that easier. Which is exactly what happened, if I had to guess. I feel like this really devalues these moves/items.

Pretty much. It being the main mechanic of the generation is relevant insofar as GF really didn't want the meta to be swimming with ways to cheese it, and especially didn't want it to be hard countered by moves that were already ubiquitous in competitive play. Dynamax wouldn't be impactful in doubles if you could just stall it out with Fake Out/Protect, because stalling out problematic threats with Fake Out and Protect has already been the entire core of doubles play for as long as doubles has existed. Basically the only one that survived was Prankster Substitute.

The problem is, when a mechanic is this powerful, there's a thin line between stopping cheese and stopping counterplay. Much like with Ultra Necrozma in USUM's story, it's so overwhelming that cheesing it is the only counterplay there is. Fighting it conventionally is just not an option. You can use Dynamax yourself, but even that isn't necessarily reliable, and only goes so far in solving the problem with Mega Evolution, where the game was centralised around your ace Pokemon.

I was looking forward to Dynamax because I was tired of matchup metas and threats where the only counterplay is during the teambuilding phase. I do still think that's a fair assessment of the change that has occurred, but having seen it in action, I have to agree with the consensus that it has shifted things too far in the opposite direction. It makes skill in using Dynamax disproportionately important to skill in any other area of the game.

It's an unnecessary nerf, cause it was a cheese strat that people liked to do

How was it possible before? The only way I can think of is Magic Bounce, which probably still counts as the opponent using Webs because of how Magic Bounce works.

 

[Colonel M]

I'm going to try to keep a closer eye on some of the posts in the thread. I understand users have a right to disagree on allowing Dynamax, but demeaning users via insulting them and name calling is not the way to do it. If this continues consequences will follow afterwards (and I may retroactively change my mind on this and just infract, I have yet to read all of the posts in question on it).

 

[MeepBard]

sun seems really interesting this gen and i'm mainly interested in it due to one item that no one's really talking about (that isn't implemented on showdown yet) being Utility Umbrella - on paper (because i can't find anything on the research thread), this item lets mons with Dry Skin actually fit on sun teams without taking massive damage every turn while still being able to absorb water moves; so stuff like Heliolisk becomes a lot more interesting due to its ability to switch into common rain attackers and fire off STAB t-bolts or even dynamax and clean late-game. definitely think dry skin users will be good abusers of this, but i'm sure there's other niche applications

EDIT: additionally, if this item actually nullifies the weakness effect of rain/sun (increases / decreases damage output on water / fire moves), this actually benefits non-sun team fire attackers a lot since it lets them break through ferro in rain! this item seems really cool and i'd love to lab it out when it gets added to showdown