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Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]
- Thread starter Finchinator
- Start date
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why did arctozolt drop but not alolan ninetales?
I'm mostly curious about 
Volcarona's rise, because these new rankings are mostly positive for it (especially the drops) but I personally haven't seen anything of substance that would warrant a rise. Are the rise of Ferrothorn bulky offense teams and offensive Heatran enough to compensate the higher viability of Rain AND prompt a rise? Or are there other factors I'm missing that went into consideration?
For reference,
Zeraora got mostly good news as well and to me it didn't deserve a rise either, but imo if any on these two warranted a rise more it would be Zeraora.
I feel like I understand every other change bar one that was already asked about (
)
Edit: almost forgot, was
Galarian Moltres ever discussed for a rise among the council? If so, what is the reasoning behind it not rising? I feel like it has become a more appreciated Ghost resist and features consistently on Hyper Offense as well as other archetypes and team structures that don't require Weavile's assets or just need a sturdier switchin to Shadow Ball.
Volcarona's rise, because these new rankings are mostly positive for it (especially the drops) but I personally haven't seen anything of substance that would warrant a rise. Are the rise of Ferrothorn bulky offense teams and offensive Heatran enough to compensate the higher viability of Rain AND prompt a rise? Or are there other factors I'm missing that went into consideration?For reference,
Zeraora got mostly good news as well and to me it didn't deserve a rise either, but imo if any on these two warranted a rise more it would be Zeraora.I feel like I understand every other change bar one that was already asked about (
)Edit: almost forgot, was
Galarian Moltres ever discussed for a rise among the council? If so, what is the reasoning behind it not rising? I feel like it has become a more appreciated Ghost resist and features consistently on Hyper Offense as well as other archetypes and team structures that don't require Weavile's assets or just need a sturdier switchin to Shadow Ball.Edit 2: I just realized that Volcarona has already been asked for by another user fml. Well, at least this post isn't just Volcarona
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agslash23
Banned deucer.
Unlike Arctozolt, Alolan Ninetales fits on teams other than dedicated Hail. It is a solid glue on Hyper Offensives archetypes. It is arguably the best Screen Setter in OU as it can annoy switch-ins with stuff like Hypnosis and Encore, thus granting setup opportunities to sweepers.
agslash23
Banned deucer.
Now, get ready to face Finch's Wrath
Why no Rilla rise?
why did volcarona rise when heatran is like much more common than ever, also no corv drop is pretty surprising.
Drops
from S- to A+
One thing to mentioned is how adaptable Weavile is. In response to the Helmet Ferro and Flane Body Tran craze, many players have used CB Beat Up to get around the contact issue. Weavile has been one of the 5 best mon in the tier for ages and I’m shocked this rise didn’t happen sooner.
We haven’t had an update in a couple of months due to awkward timing with the start of SPL and the procedural bans in December, so we rose it at the first opportunity.
But yes, Weavile is clearly S- rather than A+ and it has found ways to stay top tier in the face of what seemed to initially be adversity.
Probably because of the uptick of the Dragonite usage, but that's just my guess.
Probably the lack of Tournament play and may have something to do with it, not that I necessarily agree with the drop. I still think it should go back to B- considering thatNot sure I entirely get thedrop. With Tran + Zera running wild and Blace and Kart still being fucking scary as ever it's a really nice defensive compression tool that can still pack a good deal of utility, hell its bulk + Body Press even allows it to function acceptably as a decent FS abuser without the need for Teleport to allow it safe entry letting it pair well with strong FS users like Lele instead of relying on a fat Slow twin; you effectively have a potent defensive stopgap vs a good deal of prominent threats who also packs great supportive utility options (Rocks, Taunt, Protect, Toxic, etc, mix n match) and isn't a totally passive blob, I'd think that would all be very appealing. I get the issue with common Fairies being able to abuse it, but it can have tools to limit their threat level like Taunt to catch incoming Clefs and Finis and limiting their abilities to just run away with a game and allow you to take advantage of their predictable entries, or Protect to scout Choiced Lele (or Choice breakers in general who try to break through defence through Kommo-o) who's really fucking hard to switch into without good prediction (which is also useful for racking up free Lefties recovery which goes a long way towards its longevity throughout a game) and allows you to seize the offensive initiative vs it and reverse the situation.
Sure, I'll admit that, while it has loose options, its response options vs the prominent and rising Fairies are limited at best, and a Dark resist that loses to Weav and a Shadow Ball immunity that loses to Pult means it's not a point of consideration vs them when building and hold it back from rising in viability, but I'd think its compression options as a defensive and utility patch in the current meta would've at least kept it from dropping as well. Quite tragic ngl.
Rillaboom has been struggling for a while now and current metagame trends hurt it a lot. Many teams right now have at least one check and a midground to Rillaboom. Stuff like Volcarona, Zapdos, Dragonite and Victini have been very prevalent in SPL and they check Rillaboom very reliably defensively and offensively. It's really hard for Rillaboom to constantly make progress since there are so many prominent Grass resists that just naturally fit on teams, it just rarely performs consistently now and requires a lot of support to deal with its many bad matchups outside of spamming U-turn, which are plenty.
The Clown didn't rise ?
OK did the ferro rise result in toxtricity drop?
This is a great question. The main answer is that it's very challenging to rise up to S, especially when we recently reintegrated S- for this purpose. Because of this, Heatran only received two votes, which is not quite enough. Landorus-T is essentially a staple on more archetypes than not right now and contesting with it for a sense of equality in S warrants pretty massive evidence.
I firmly believe that a lot of this evidence is there, too, but the fact of the matter is that the Eruption set
The metagame continues to be more prepared for it and there is just less room for its specs variant right now. We did see more Dragon Darts variants, but they are less consistent. In a tier with increased viability of Clefable, Tapu Fini, and Weavile while Toxapex and Landourus-T remain SDef focused, Dragapult has less room as a breaker. With Zeraora's viability sustained and Weavile's viability improved while Scarf Kartana is surging, it is also a less prominent revenge killer. For now, A+ is more fitting for sure.
Very challenging to fit onto teams right now as it serves minimal, if any, true defensive value. It also dislikes the consistency of AV Knock Off Tornadus-T and the consistency of fellow Ground types, which make it even more awkward to fit.
It is a clear step below the other A+ Pokemon as it faces stiff competition among other Regenerator pivots, bulky Waters, etc. With Tapu Fini peaking and Slowking-Galar being arguably the most effective Future Sight user, there are lots of different ways to tackle the individual things Slowbro brings to the table. Of course, the unique collective of traits is still very viable and Slowbro remaining in A rank is very justified, but we do not see it as quite a top tier Pokemon.
DD sets were all the rage before, but now utility sets are a good response to Urshifu-Rapid (common partially because of Weavile), Kartana, Heatran, etc. -- it has a unique defensive profile. I do not think you can use the logic you did by tying single Pokemon like that together because these things are not linear. More Weavile means more Urshifu-Rapid. More Clefable means more Heatran. More Urshifu-Rapid and Heatran means more Dragonite, so we cannot say Weavile or Clefable being better makes Dragonite worse without considering the other rippling effects they may have honestly. Metagames can work in cycles like this and can lead to sudden slight drops or rises.
Kartana does this with a greater speed tier and a greater set mix with various SD variants popping up (Adrenaline Orb, Timid, standard 3A, and even Synthesis) and Band being a classically good breaker with Zapdos running offensive sets frequently and Skarmory dying out. Scarf has also taken off for the first time this generation, which is especially big as it gets the jump on some things Tapu Lele does not. I do not think comparing these two Pokemon holds much weight at all as their functionality is vastly different and the only thing that ties them together is their offensive nature -- there is far more than this to each Pokemon.
Seismitoad started well below those two and technically has another niche that kept it viable before it saw the consistent Rain usage it does now as an Electric immune. It is still a subrank below I believe, but it is at least closer. Rain as a whole has not seen that much of an uptick in usage, but rather a shift in Pokemon used on it away from the reliance on pivot Scizor or SDef Teleport Clefable for Kyurem. It is still not the most common type of HO/cheese.
A few posts above you someone asked why Dragapult dropped. I will give you the benefit of the doubt as you expanded on the question a little, but I gave the detailed reasoning there.
No, it is a versatile offensive option that still has a very strong niche as a Swords Dance user and provides a practical defensive presence to justify fitting it onto many different structures. It is not as elite as it once was when it was clearly in A+, but it still deserves to stick where it is.
Only two people voted for Tyranitar to be bumped to B+. It is hard to switch into, but it also has less and less niche overall due to Sand being lackluster right now and things like Dragapult distancing itself from being predominantly Choice Specs, so we see Tyranitar as being more valued for its standalone offensive presence than anything else. And it sure is strong, but it is slow and naturally checked by Urshifu-Rapid and very prediction reliant when faced with common cores. For a Pokemon that is this slow and does not offer much defensively unless facing a special Ghost, it is hard to sell it being ranked among more trendy options like Nihilego and Moltres-Galar offensively or premier bulky-offensive options like Buzzwole.
Also, your post reads a bit like a nomination for Tyranitar to move up -- that's great honestly and I implore you to post something along these lines once the nomination phase opens back up because I will happily bring it up once more. You do raise some good points, but it is still easier said than actually done in practice. Perhaps the test of time will prove friendly to Tyranitar though -- do not mind including it once more at all.
It sees virtually no high ladder or tournament usage honestly. The defensive sets are entirely nonexistent and offensive sets are all fringe. Clefable rising once more is not doing it any favors either.
A lot of Heatran right now are Air Balloon, offensive, and sometimes without Taunt. Volcarona can easily outlast it when paired with a reliable Stealth Rock setter, especially if it has Psychic. We have seen countless games where Heatran makes progress early, but takes 2-3 rounds of SR and a few resisted hits. Ultimately, it is incapable of handling late game Volcarona.
Volcarona's dynamic presence as a win condition is ultimately way too much for it to be ranked in A-.
Volcanion has been steamy as of late; it is very hard to switch in-to for balanced teams, even forcing more usage of things like Dragonite. It gets in pretty reliably too with HDB and respectable natural bulk. Sludge Wave mauls Tapu Fini while STABs tackle virtually everything else. It is a good standalone special breaker on balance and bulky-offense because of this.
Gengar has seen virtually no usage for a while, so it dropping should be no shock. As for Nihilego, the Meteor Beam sets, specifically with EVs to give it a speed boost upon getting a KO, have been absolutely thriving. It is nice in a metagame where chipping down Landorus-T can open so many doors and other Flying types like Zapdos/Tornadus-T are quite common. It also is a soft check to Volcarona and Moltres-Galar.
Some Hail teams with Aurora Veil Alolan Ninetales still function without Arctozolt, electing to use other combinations of win conditions and breakers to do the job. Arctozolt is still plenty viable with it, but it is not always there.
Moltres-Galar had a couple of votes for A-, but ultimately just missed out. The issue is that more Dragapult on offense are running Dragon Darts and new challenges are popping up for Moltres-Galar such as Nihilego and Zapdos surging in usage. I would say it will likely be on next slate if people post about it since it was a close call, but for now B+ is more fitting.Edit: almost forgot, was
Rillaboom is really only used on a super limited scope of offensive teams with Magnezone right now. It is remarkably inconsistent otherwise with Choice Band due to Ferrothorn peaking and plenty of Flying types handling it otherwise such as Zapdos, Corviknight, Dragonite, etc. and locking into a move is hellish as is with all the other resists that can punish teams like Heatran, Volcarona, and Kartana.
SD sets see even less usage and never are going to clean teams with all of the faster Grass resists and the abundance of things that pressure it, but it is pretty similar in viability to before while Choice Band continues to take a nose dive. If anything, Rillaboom as a whole is closer to dropping than rising though.
This thread was pretty clearly opened up to questions -- not debate -- and someone already inquired about Kommo-O. I will say that only two people voted for it to remain where it was and someone even wanted it to fall all the way to C, so I think this one was pretty clear-cut.Not sure I entirely get thedrop. With Tran + Zera running wild and Blace and Kart still being fucking scary as ever it's a really nice defensive compression tool that can still pack a good deal of utility, hell its bulk + Body Press even allows it to function acceptably as a decent FS abuser without the need for Teleport to allow it safe entry letting it pair well with strong FS users like Lele instead of relying on a fat Slow twin; you effectively have a potent defensive stopgap vs a good deal of prominent threats who also packs great supportive utility options (Rocks, Taunt, Protect, Toxic, etc, mix n match) and isn't a totally passive blob, I'd think that would all be very appealing. I get the issue with common Fairies being able to abuse it, but it can have tools to limit their threat level like Taunt to catch incoming Clefs and Finis and limiting their abilities to just run away with a game and allow you to take advantage of their predictable entries, or Protect to scout Choiced Lele (or Choice breakers in general who try to break through defence through Kommo-o) who's really fucking hard to switch into without good prediction (which is also useful for racking up free Lefties recovery which goes a long way towards its longevity throughout a game) and allows you to seize the offensive initiative vs it and reverse the situation.
Sure, I'll admit that, while it has loose options, its response options vs the prominent and rising Fairies are limited at best, and a Dark resist that loses to Weav and a Shadow Ball immunity that loses to Pult means it's not a point of consideration vs them when building and hold it back from rising in viability, but I'd think its compression options as a defensive and utility patch in the current meta would've at least kept it from dropping as well. Quite tragic ngl.
I really appreciate that you feel strongly about Kommo-O and would love for you to contribute to a future nomination on it! Given this, I advise you post when the time is appropriate in a couple of days or later. If there is some traction there, I will happily include it in the next slate once more and bring up your points when appropriate. However, now is not the time and we were very clear about opening the thread up with certain guidelines to avoid clutter and making extra work for myself, so please save any potential nominations for the future and follow the rules provided. Thanks!
why did AquaVanilla post a repeat question when duplicate questions are like much more disallowed than ever, also no corv drop is not surprising as corv is still near top tier as a Defogger and defensive utility
Hope putting this into your words helped my friend ;)
Zeraora is close, but A+ is pretty hard to break into as then you are clearly top tier and approaching being one of the most metagame defining Pokemon. It still faces stiff competition from other forms of speed control as well. I think it is closer to A+ than most other things in A, but still not there. I would happily include it once more though to see if it gets enough support next slate.
No, it did not.
It rose pretty recently (maybe even multiple times) and is still good, but it has not seen anymore upticks in usage and we are seeing a lot of ways to abuse Shadow Ball spam recently.
Toxtricity dropped because nobody uses it at all and there are a ton of common and effective Electric types that serve a more defined niche. Ferrothorn did not help it, but the general lack of Toxtricity indicated a lack of viability.
scorbunnys
Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
Why did Melmetal rise?
It's still a great specially defensive pivot that enables a lot of offensive teammates on the fragile side thanks to Teleport.
It is a strong offensive presence and provides a unique defensive profile as a good check to Weavile and Fairy types in a metagame polluted with both. This coupled with a diverse set mix makes a big deal for Melmetal's viability.
Last chance to ask questions -- nominations open in 3 hours
Since no one appears to have asked about Galarian Zapdos, I’m curious on the counsel’s thoughts on it and why it stayed where it is amidst metagame trends. Not that I disagree or anything, I just saw some people who wanted it to drop back to B+ and I’m curious what the counsel felt about that as well as its current place in the meta.
Thunder Pwoell
Banned deucer.
idc about anything on their except terrakion and mandibuzz. so.. lets start with buzz. Why?
Why did Entei not make it to C- ?
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