Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

[Mimikyu Stardust]

UR->C-

I want to nom Druddigon from Unranked to C-

So i have been trying out the team style that is "cheese" or "hax" HO where the main goal is to create such a BS evironment to play in with strategies like Paralyze, Flinches, Quick Claw, luck and win with that. Yes i know it can be very inconsistent but it is definetly more consistent than you think. You want to set up either screen or paralysis spam so that your other pokemon can set-up much easier to start off the game and break through your opponent with hax-indulged beating like Nasty Plot Togekiss, Nasty Plot Glowbro, Melmetal, Swords Dance Bulu and much more. Druddigon plays a big part in some of these teams as it sets up the tempo with Mold Breaker paralysis and taunts which cant be stopped.

ROLES
Druddigon is a dedicated lead which spreads paralysis with glare which can hit ground types and has mold breaker so its not annoyed by magic bounce. Its role to spread Paralysis, taunt and mold breaker is extremely nice and no-other pokemon does its job. This completely shuts down trick room using mold breaker taunt which offense has a trouble with. While it is somewhat niche and other hazard leads that can paralyze things and taunt like Mew exist, but the usefulness of mold breaker, 100% accurate ground hitting glare gives it that edge over mew, and unlike mew it can effectively run a surprise offensive/banded set due to sheer force and its meaty 120 base attack stat. Druddigon also helps with destroying stall for offense teams because of taunt + glare making it easier to spread paralysis and preventing the opponent to do much of anything with taunt.

The item you usually want to run is mental herb to make sure you get off either a taunt, glare or rocks, and if you predict your opponent is going for taunt, just use taunt on them back and get off what ever you want back and set the tempo for the rest of the game with early game BS.

Now if you don't think you need mold breaker (which i really think you need) Rough Skin rocky helmet can be nice.

Heres the first set:


Druddigon @ Mental Herb / Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Glare
- Stealth Rock
- Roar
- Taunt

Its simple, you glare as much as you can while setting up rocks, and after druddigon has lived past its usefulness, just spam roar to either get chip on the opponent with hazard or preventing set-up sweeper thinking youre just a sitting duck that can't do anything, mental herb is to prevent taunt from the opposing team and you can taunt them back if you predict it and get free set up.

heres a team that works well with it from last year's OLT. (yes theres a kings rock cloyster but you can change it to things like muscle band, never melt ice or an electric immune like garchomp)

https://pokepast.es/72a3142367d8e42e

Now i used this team last year to cheese through ladder to try and get into OLT, and it worked well, the peak i got with this team before switching into a more consistent squad was 1800s as without an electric immunity this team isnt too consistent and there were other teams that destroyed this one.

Now recently, ive been trying to take another jab at this strategy using this set


Akane (Druddigon) (F) @ Roseli Berry
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 248 HP / 104 SpD / 156 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Glare
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Gunk Shot

Instead of the previous set which run mental herb, i tried to run Roseli berry + Gunk shot to prevent counter leads by fairies like lele, koko or fini and since druddigon is a bit of a one trick pony, people would expect the set to be mental herb and some people ive faced have forgo going for taunt and instead just attacking to prevent drudd from doing too much BS. the speed is for corviknight, spdef is for specs lele and modest nidoking while adamant is to 2hko clef and fini, and ohko koko and lele.

OFFENSIVE CALCS
0+ Atk Mold Breaker Druddigon Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 194-230 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
0+ Atk Mold Breaker Druddigon Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 282-332 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0+ Atk Mold Breaker Druddigon Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 196-232 (69.7 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ Atk Mold Breaker Druddigon Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 152-180 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0+ Atk Mold Breaker Druddigon Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 254-300 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

DEFENSIVE CALCS
252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 104 SpD Roseli Berry Druddigon: 103-123 (28.8 - 34.4%) -- 3.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 104 SpD Roseli Berry Druddigon: 249-294 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 104 SpD Roseli Berry Druddigon: 123-145 (34.4 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 104 SpD Druddigon: 265-315 (74.2 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Druddigon: 241-285 (67.5 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Recently i made a team with this and got massive success and peaking the ladder, and druddigon of course, is crucial for getting off early game glare, lure for an early kill and just generally getting your team up to speed.


https://pokepast.es/6405013ad8deb9fc
Heres the link to the rmt
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...arahax-spam-peak-1-2074-elo-85-3-gxe.3699903/

I went more indepth about the team in the RMT Above but the idea of the team is basically to hax through your opponent by spreading as much paralysis as possible so then you can break through the opponent with flinches using melmetal and togekiss which later in the game you can clean up with zeraora, volcarona or scarf togekiss.

As the name of the team suggest, it is mainly to beat stall as druddigon is extremely useful as a lead to fight stall with its glares and taunts but that does not mean its only good againts stall, i have faced a bunch of balance and bo which struggles againts this team too, so it is genuinely good and viable.

REPLAYS OF DRUDDIGON DOING THINGS!
i couldnt find replays of drudd using the first team since that was so long ago

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1538179828-zixa57k5pzw8nobeba3n1e6o5othvoxpw VS RillaZone Gastro Fat
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1540797821-k4uqsqcummzfbvt4ktfw8qkq2kir3wxpw VS Jirachi Clef Balance
This game is an excellent example of the utility that druddigon brings to shut down fatter teams.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1539707159-kxng0xflzvinuauuq9rdk5hp249u4ecpw VS Gmolt HO
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1538468600-2np1wd4zx74yucchp0e87glfhye2hkrpw VS Psyspam Gmolt
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1542755272-qe2v7pdwhkor06gcjyrwxzx1p28zyjupw VS Cosmic Mew Stall
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1536675291-qpk29rupxc86g0h6vp1nu3lgb4tpoj3pw VS Latios Special Offense
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1538388537-2kef9q02wsnws1cdq5qcue0dpj0omkupw VS Psyspam Polteageist
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1538956814-p1ntqnfsiqd4z8ok5ecyl1phohdxa90pw VS Volcanion BO
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1543623651-13j9q437jpk8582kk5qxs7eld9gi4copw VS Shifu BO
These replays druddigon only was able to get one glare off or one kill, but even that is enough to set the tempo for the entire game making the team able to roll through the opponent much easier.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1538476854
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1539907028-06dau65ztsj55rf6gtrk5utfpwkr1dbpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1536223626-8jer40x1e5ueugjmax6331p7jfriocypw
These 3 replays are of stall/fat teams where druddigon absolutely destroys them by paralyzing and taunting everything so that my team just steamrolls.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1538461223-ueu991jjf8rnrcx5d1dtpyhf4w4eh5spw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1538463307-s61vkvk5vs918m41qpctukeye8jpk72pw
Drudigon doesnt need to be used in the lead, you can always switch it out of bad match up and glare them later

There are more replays in my RMT but these one are the ones where druddigon does the most things. I know druddigon in DLC 1 was ranked for a bit due to the same reason i think (i started playing during crown tundra, so correct me if im wrong).

The cons?

Well druddigon is pretty passive and can easily be counter lead by things like weavile or Dragapult and is completely walled zapdos unless ur running some dragon moves. It is also not too useful midgame but you should expect that with a dedicated lead. it is also only good on HO Much like shuckle or ribombee.

Conclusion?

Druddigon is an amazing dedicated lead for Hax Offense which are team that are combined with things like Quick Clawbro/spam or Togekiss where you want to BS your opponent and clean later on in the game with a scarfer or set up sweeper. Its Ability of mold breaker and paralyzing ground types are very unique as it completely shuts down another gimmick offense in trick room.

It is only good in one play style but things like Shuckle is also ranked in C- where its only good for one playstyle so i really think it should be given a thought and rank.

 

[Red Raven]

Seems like everyone who ever partook in that Mandibuzz thing really wants to continue talking about it xD

Anyway, I wanna make a few noms of my own

I wanna start with . When this thing was put in S rank I thought that everyone was high or something. Anyway, I do think that this deserves a rise. Its definitely got a lot of issues but putting it next to the likes of Dracozolt or Primarina, who are pretty much non existent in ou, just seems wrong. Its huge bulk, somewhat decent speed and access to foul play makes it a pretty large roadblock for every physical attacker in the game that isn't Weavile. B- seems to be a good rank for it since it is better or just as good, or niche, as Jirachi or Reuniclus

Next is I wanna nom to S-

This mon just does it all. Regenerator, a large pool of moves to choose from, fast speed, you name it. The only true bad matchup for it is when there is a Zapdos on the opposing team as none of its moves will do anything to Zap and spamming u turn or knock off could spell disaster. However, that is just one bad matchup compared to everything else. This thing is just so obnoxious to face and is even more obnoxious to try and kill

to B+

Seriously. Putting Nidoking next to Excadrill or Tyranitar is a felony. With Blissey and regular Slowking not being an optimal pick for most teams and having access to ice beam, flamethrower, thunderbolt complimented by its stabs really allows it to be a massive pain to play around. The poison typing also becomes a large asset against some random tpsikes Toxapex. While you can play around it, Nidoking is far better than everything else in its current rank

to A+

Since I did nom Tornadus to go higher, I think it would be a crime not to nom the bane of its existence higher as well. Aside from that, Zapdos also has a lot of good traits that makes it more annoying. Electric is already a good stab but it even has access to a strong flying stab that hits ground types really hard. Even if it's on defensive sets, hurricane's power somewhat makes up for the lack of offensive evs and static can be very devastating to threats like Kartana and Tornadus. Even Weavile would have to be careful against Zapdos because even if yellow bird dies, it can leave Weavile very vulnerable if static triggers

to A+

I don't know about anyone else but Garchomp has been a massive mvp in my teams. Its good bulk and typing allows one to stave off Heatran and more importantly, rough skin can really be a pain for the very same physical attackers that Zapdos' static is effective against. Even if it dies, the damage that rough skin and potential rocky helmets could leave those physical threats ripe for the picking. Access to flamethrower also allows it to actually pressure Buzzwall, the bane of most physical attackers. Tbh, along with Lele, Slowbro and Zapdos, I think these four are a step up better than the rest in the A rank but I'll only nom Garchomp and Zapdos since I don't have much recent experience with the other two

Other stuff that I agree with

to S- / merge the S ranks

As others have also stated, Landorus isn't meta defining enough for it to be a step up from Heatran and Weavile

to A-

Yeah, Heatran, Tornadus and spdef grounds just make its life a living hell

 

[ayevon]

Pretty egregious that slowking is only B+ while glowking (and slowbro to a lesser extent) is in A. It's ability to blank volcanion and offensive heatran is invaluable to balance and bulky offense teams, improves your rain match up immensely, is probably the best early game lele pivot of anything with decent viability, and can be part of a core to check urshifu. When comparing standard sets, slack off and boots gives slowking much better longevity than glowking not to mention having access to teleport. Glowking certainly has its advantages like not being setup fodder for calm minders etc but both their respective rankings seem pretty outdated and should probably swap.

 

[Jakerocks73]

my second/last post about Midibuzz

Mandibuzz loses to more than CB Melmetal though, ToxTect and even AV Melm can overwhelm it, it is still taking at least 40 from Double Iron Bash even at max Defense (which is actually barely more common than max SpDef). Plus, ToxTect just clicks Toxic and all of a sudden Mandibuzz has lost any sort of use throughout the rest of the game.

116 Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 162-192 (38.2 - 45.2%) -- approx. 3HKO
252+ Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 194-230 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- approx. 50.8% chance to 2HKO

You say Corviknight doesn't beat a lot of things, but what does Mandibuzz beat reliably? Everything it can beat has a way around it, whether it be alternative coverage options, Knock Off, any status, etc. Rocky Helmet Mandibuzz barely sees any usage at any point in the ladder, and considering that a Mandibuzz that takes damage from hazards is completely deadweight (even more easily overwhelmed), Heavy Duty Boots are usually just better. Speaking of overwhelmed, that is honestly Mandibuzz's biggest issue - it is usually relegated to spamming Roost because it is constantly vulnerable to being overwhelmed. This makes it extremely passive and exploitable by the plethora of the metagame, meaning it can only operate as a blanket check, not actually being able to beat much of anything in the long run. These flaws are very major in a metagame where you want your defensive Pokemon to actually be able to check/counter something with reliability, and it is definitely enough to keep Mandibuzz out of the B-ranks in my eyes.

TL;DR - Mandibuzz is not very good, and should thus stay in the C-ranks, which definitely need reorganization, but that's for another post.

Also the Tapu Koko and Tapu Fini shit is 100% a troll and makes me question your validity.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To make this post not just a Mandibuzz hate post, I'll make a legitimate nomination.



C+ -> B-

I feel like at this point, Regieleki has definitely proven itself worthy of entering the B-ranks. Its role on hazard stack offense is pretty well-defined as of now, what with the not-so-recent uptick of Zapdos-G usage in the meta, ability to effectively lure Landorus-T for other teammates to abuse, the crucial guaranteed Spin, etc. It can even act as a decent cleaner in the late game due to its horrific Electric-STAB (once Grounds are removed bla bla bla). It is definitely flawed, its offensive potential is completely dependent on the status of the opponent's Ground-type, and if the opponent has a Dragapult, it can actually be pretty annoying to get through, but its upsides are definitely worth the rise to B-.

Also I might do a post on making the C-ranks better sometime soon

This is true I forgot about tox protect melmetal, but rocky helmet beats non band/ toxic protect. And most of the other stuff you said was just opinion-based so I can't really argue with that. I don't think koko and fini are bad but they aren't that good, like come on they are really above lele, urshifu, and chomp? If you ask me the best fini set is a whirlpool set but other pokemon can also do that, the only thing that sets it apart from those other pokemon is misty terrain and good typing. But mew can use recovery moves so like idk man. Then koko is just an offensive pivot ig? Idk doesn't seem very strong to me, can't even kill an offensive chomp unless it is specs, and why would you run specs there are so many better pokemon to run specs on. Regieleki is kinda meh, it gets walled by every ground type, and people doubling with it is extremely obvious. It is fine where it is, maybe B- or B at best.

 

[Moyashi]

To make this post not just a Mandibuzz hate post, I'll make a legitimate nomination.



C+ -> B-

I feel like at this point, Regieleki has definitely proven itself worthy of entering the B-ranks. Its role on hazard stack offense is pretty well-defined as of now, what with the not-so-recent uptick of Zapdos-G usage in the meta, ability to effectively lure Landorus-T for other teammates to abuse, the crucial guaranteed Spin, etc. It can even act as a decent cleaner in the late game due to its horrific Electric-STAB (once Grounds are removed bla bla bla). It is definitely flawed, its offensive potential is completely dependent on the status of the opponent's Ground-type, and if the opponent has a Dragapult, it can actually be pretty annoying to get through, but its upsides are definitely worth the rise to B-.

This is a nom I can definitely get behind. Not only decent on those hazard stacking offense teams, but more and more lately I've noticed people experiment with it outside of those teams, being used as a general cleaner (sometimes still using rapid spin to give it utility too) and it can actually be pretty annoying to deal with at times. Still not the most consistent for obvious reasons but at least, it's more worth using than much of the C rank mons.

Mimikyu's Drudd nom also makes me want to play around with it a bit. Pretty interesting stuff!

Couple of noms myself:

to S-

I don't find LandoT to be so far above Weavile and Heatran in terms of defining the metagame. It's often overwhelmed trying to check as much as it does and with its tendency to lose its leftovers to knock off, it ends up being worn down very quickly. Still incredibly good, just not so good as to be above everything else.

to B+

Nidoking feels much better acclimatized to the meta than before. Its potency as a breaker makes it tough to pivot around for bulkier teams and with Ferrothorn trending more towards physdef, this has allowed it to drop flamethrower for thunderbolt and thus still nailing the trending Slowking. Better than before but still not amazing yet, so B+ feels right for now.

to B-

It's too passive for the more offensive nature of the tier. Even with recovery in slack off it's pretty prone to being overwhelmed and it's hard to justify using this over its competition right now.

 

[ProNooob]

Nidoking should be A- IMO. I definitely understand the feeling of A vs B, but I really don’t think goltres and nihilego are as good as nido. Everyone knows of nido’s stupid coverage and power (bless SF and Lorb) and it seems unwallable rn. The only things that could truly wall the king were blissey and slowking, and as we all know bozoblob and bozoking are falling off, so nido stonks are up. If it can be brought in for free vs something slower than it, it can very easily threaten a KO or chipping your defensive units with mid recovery (ferro lando chomp etc) and can set up a lethal endgame. I just son’t think saying nidoking is nihilego goltres or hawlucha tier is fair.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

You are aware that SPDef mandi is WAY more popular right

and many european people use to drink water laced with lead since they thought it had medicinal properties. just bc yall decide to be dumb in mass doesnt mean that it's good lol that is quite literally a fallacy. I clearly have had major consistent success with it for a reason

The Mandibuzz rise was an April Fool’s joke. We will vote on it next slate anyway since people seem to care about it quite a bit, but going to ask for discussion on it to die down so we can return to discussion on..anything else but Mandibuzz

no

 

[julian113]

I probably shouldn't apply fuel to the fire that is the Mandibuzz discussion, but I'm going to cause I feel like it. I think Mandibuzz is fine where it is, but I can understand why people don't feel like it belongs in C+ because C+ as a rank itself is very flawed. For example, if someone were to say, "Mandibuzz is as viable as Swampert and Kommo-o," I doubt many people would disagree outside of a few...outliers. However if someone said, "Mandibuzz is as viable as Cresselia and Zarude," I believe a lot of people would disagree because there's a pretty noticeable viablity gap between those mons imho. I think the C+ and C ranks don't really make any sense as a whole (Toxtricity is on the same level as Shedinja lmao), so in this post I'm gonna try to break down the C+ rank first, maybe do the C rank later.

to B-/B
People have already nommed Celesteela higher along with myself in a previous post so I won't go into too much detail. It's is a splashable option on ho thanks to its invaluable typing and solid sweeping potential, its on a sample and has no business being this low.
Stay in C+
Crawdaunt is largely only viable because of its ability to break down stall with ease and while its a fairly unique quality, it struggles to make an impact otherwise because of its low speed and the prominence of faster mons that can tank aqua jet with relative ease (dragapult, zeraora, passho berry blaziken). Still with stall's solid presence recently on the ladder, I wouldn't mind keeping it in C+.
to C-
How did Cress get here lmao, its a tr only mon and should hang back with its buddies hatt and p2 in C-
Stay in C+
No issues with this ranking, solid sand breaker that struggles with the continued prominence of spdef lando. I do suggest using band Dracozolt though, you do similar amounts of damage to spdef lando without the drop in power from draco meteor, and bolt beaks pack a lot more punch, breaking through even the bulkiest of buzzwole. Takes prediction to use but it pays off well. I'll put my set below.

Dracozolt @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Outrage
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Fang

to C-
Kingdra rain has been mostly pushed aside in favour of classic skewda/toad rain structures, but I think its still a little viable because of most Ferrothorn going physdef, along with the fact that I use it, so it simply can't be bad. Still, a fringe pick on an already non-mainstream playstyle in rain shouldn't really be here alongside more prominent weather mons (see above).
Stay in C+
Kommo-o is a perfectly fine choice, defensive stealth rock sets answer both kartana and blacephalon well, role compression that is really hard, if not impossible to come by using other mons. Alongside this is its collection of random offensive sets that can be found on various hos, only one i really take seriously is the sub bd set which can be really threatening in the right mu. I don't consider it a B ranked mon only because while the role compression of defensive sets is nice, it isn't exactly demanded on the vast majority of teams, and it isn't really a mainstream pick on prominent ho archetypes like celesteela is.
to UR
I'm not a big fan of keeping things that aren't actually viable on the VR. Mamoswine is what you get when you mix a ground type lacking any defensive utility with a base 80 speed weavile. Using lo/band Mamoswine means your using a ground type that can't really check zera or koko, and one that is incredibly easy for eleki to chip down. Therefore to even consider using it you need a backup ground, along with slow pivots since it cant hit the field safely ever except off lead or a sack. Then you also have the issue of its poor speed, meaning its forced out by threatening wallbreakers like urshifu and specs lele. The prominence of timid volcanion and heatran also forces Mamoswine to run jolly, which cuts into its wallbreaking potential. The worst part about all this is even if you go through all the roadblocks needed to use Mamoswine and get it into position, its not even that good of a wallbreaker and is completely reliant on flinches and team support to break most of its checks. Keep in mind that these following calcs are from choice band Mamoswine, meaning you need to predict perfectly to even reach these calcs.
-252 Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 156-184 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-252 Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 145-172 (41.1 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-252 Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-252 Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 157-186 (39.9 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
There is no way a mon that requires that much support to function justifies this kind of wallbreaking, or lack thereof, alongside its poor speed.
Stay in C+
Sorry Omari P gonna have to stick with Big Tech on this one.
to UR
A couple people seem to advocate to the death that Primarina is not only viable, but a legit threat. I politely disagree and believe that it is in fact, bad fini and that you shouldn't use it unless you want a base 60 speed wallbreaker thats walled by ferro for some reason.
to B-
Other people nommed Eleki up and I agree with their reasoning, eleki the fringe meme pick is no more. Its synergy with gzap on hazard stack has created a formidable combo on some really solid teams.
to UR
Outclassed by other cm users, mostly fini. Haven't really seen it used seriously at all and powerful physical wallbreakers that blow through it aren't uncommon. Taunt is becoming a more prominent move in the tier and I think that's just the final nail in the vr coffin.
Stay in C+
Respectable niche on grassy terrain teams that need a stronger check to heatran than lando, and appreciate its slow pivoting to get wallbreakers in. Yawn is a really cool option too that helps you keep rocks up consistently.
Stay in C+
Needs to hit focus blast to beat kartana, a task known to be impossible. Seriously tho, solid blanket physical wall for fat teams that faces serious competition from buzzwole, but differentiates itself through regenerator and a highly improved rain matchup.
to C-
Another really, really fringe rain pick that belongs alongside Kingdra imo.
to C-
I've kinda done a 180 on Zarude recently, at first I thought it had potential, but I've realized that its really hard to consistently get results with and sorta has to be carried by the rest of the team because of that goddamn 4x weakness to the most annoying move in the game. I think it does still deserve ranking however because its really effective at breaking fat teams thanks to its signature move, which are becoming more prominent in the tier.

Imk what you guys think of this shakedown of the mismatched C+ rank.

 

[Jaajgko]

why is weavile allowed? https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-617001 watch this replay lmao, what am I supposed to do?

With Beat Up Weavile's rise you need to have a dark resist with a recovery move on fat teams. Either Clef, Buzzwole or Defog Hydreigon.

 

[Faless__]

and many european people use to drink water laced with lead since they thought it had medicinal properties. just bc yall decide to be dumb in mass doesnt mean that it's good lol that is quite literally a fallacy. I clearly have had major consistent success with it for a reason





no

Can someone tell this man that beating people on ladder is not major consistent success, the point of it is easing pressure vs Blace and pult in balance teams the first place lmfao

 

[Verdas]

Haven't done noms in a while, here we go.

Celesteela has shown itself to be a staple on HO, and it's consistency on the archetype warrants a rise to B-/B IMO.

Regieleki has a lot of value in the current meta, and it's been a very prominent part of the meta through it's use on Zapdos-Galar hazard stack teams. It has a lot of utility on and against Ferrothorn BO's, which are arguably the best team style right now, due to the unique utility provided in Rapid Spin that is so hard to fit otherwise. Groundless Slowking-Galar Buzzwole teams are also used a decent bit rn, and eleki has an amazing matchup into those teams, as well as being a devastating cleaner against a lot of comps once their grounds are weakened. B-/B

As much as I love Tapu Fini, I don't think it warrants an A+ ranking. It loses its Leftovers really quickly into the game since its forced to check Weavile on a lot of the teams it's used on, and therefore gets worn down extremely fast, especially with spikes up. Calm Mind sets are a solid win condition, but they often don't get the ball rolling fast enough and are forced out by Zeraora, Kartana, Power Whip Ferrothorn, and friends. Scarf sets are super akward to pilot if they don't nab lefties, and are often too passive after getting the trick off. A

I just don't think it's that much better than Zeraora, if better at all. You're basically trading Knock Off and being able to reliably fit a setup move for Dazzling Gleam and being able to reliably fit a pivoting move, and gaining electric terrain and reliable recovery for Zeraora's much better revenge killing due to getting the jump on Dragapult and Weavile, as well as valuable fighting coverage against steels. If we're gonna keep this thing at A+, i think we should move Zeraora up.

 

[Moyashi]

can someone tell this bitcheles palm colored heathen that until he can personally beat me in a bo3 or bo5 (ill even use the same team every time) his opinion on one of my most used mons of the decade is ignorant, irrelevant and futile. you do not know what you're talking about and like the articl below, nothing will change your sunken cost fueled mind

Hate to break it to you (not really) but whether they beat you or not, it still doesn't make you right. A good player bringing a niche Mon to high/top ladder doesn't generally reflect the Mon's value, it's a reflection of skill. You need a large sample size to make an argument (see the rise of Volcanion or G-Zapdos for examples). Players have brought all sorts of odd Pokemon to high/top ladder but that doesn't change the Mon being niche.

Also could ya cool it with the hostility? Insults and your condescending tone will never make people want to hear what you have to say, let alone consider it.

 

[MrHands]

I'm pretty sure we've all watched the assorted Pokeaim, Blunder, Blimax etc videos of them bringing some godforsaken trash to high ladder games and winning (sometimes). Remember that BDSP video of Blimax winning like 5 games in a row by sweeping with Ariados?

Yeah I'm sorry but the "I play at 1800+ and it works for me" argument isn't enough. A good player can win with a handicap but the point of viability rankings is if a Pokémon can be good in a consistent setting piloted by multiple players on different teams and ladder levels. If a Pokemon only works on a small number of teams that makes it niche, which puts it lower on the viability rankings. Everyone reading this comment has had their asses handed to them by Charizard, Shedinja, or Marowak at some point but that doesn't mean they're A+, they're just niche and usable on a certain type of team.

Tbh I think C+ is rather generous for Mandibuzz considering it's a worse Corviknight most of the time.

 

[Ctann]

I’d say these three are the “cream of the cream” of OU. Thoughts?

In short, it’s to do with the fact that they always pull significant weight, unless over prepared for. And by over prepared I mean, multiple answers on the same team:

OUs hard hitting Tank S

- heatran can’t pull weight much against rain, otherwise it’s excellent , even if you’re against 3x stacked “reliable” checks. It’s mostly due to the fact that it has so many resistances, combined with the most frustrating move to switch into in OU - magma storm

OUs apex predator S

- Weavile will only feel weak against teams that run multiple answers, like Buzzwole , Bisharp and urshifu. However even against teams like that, it can still pull weight. Weavile is thriving in “bird meta”, where some of the best pivots in OU are the flying types that check landorus, Kartana and stealth rocks. Due to almost every top team carrying one of the birds, Weavile will always have prey.

Interestingly, the heavy duty boots set feels a little out of date, life orb or choice band are much more immediately threatening, and both are viable as either early game breakers or for late game cleaning

personally I’m running the old fashioned life orb set with icicle crash for the sweet 27% chance to immediately end a game once you get a flinch on a critical check, such as toxapex or Buzzwole.

Weavile is conveniently faster than almost all of OUs pivots, with only one popular one being faster .. and that is;

OUs best tempo control S+

- Koko has two great stabs for OUs “benchmark speed tier” Pokémon. Basically anything faster than Koko can’t OHKO, and Koko can OHKO most threats sitting just under its speed tier*. The terrain setting gives it a great way to change the tempo of a match against lele, fini and Rillaboom as well.

*

in regards to the claim about faster Pokémon that can’t OHKO

+ is technically faster and OHKOs, however it’s two Pokémon not one. It’s rare to see barraskewda without pelliper

+ seed : koko resists the STABs

+ this is a similar case to the barraskewda and pelipper point

usually requires just a ground type switch in, and cannot OHKO koko anyway

only a bulk up set is a worry, koko can otherwise take a hit

shadow ball is a 2hko, tho it rarely stays in and can’t threaten koko out unless some HP has been lost.

you have the 117 power thunderbolt to augment a weak 289 SpA, pivotability with u turn to harass switchins, OUs most viable “fast” taunter, useful STABs for a long list of offensive Pokémon that you’ll outspeed and force out, an immunity that reduces the viability of all physical dragon STAB, and finally roost if you want longevity against Zapdos.

I think Koko is one of the best , if not the best Pokémon in OU right now, mostly due to its matchup against all the trendiest things: “bird meta”, “regenerator meta”, “banded knock off meta”, “HO with mew meta” and “surprise! beat up / dragon darts meta”. It even matches up well against “stall meta”, just trade u turn or roost for taunt.

it’s most popular checks: landorus, hippodown, glowking, Ferrothorn, magnezone, and friends are all awesome meta Pokémon, however cannot stop it’s end game cleaning if you prep the rest of the team to be able to deal with or weaken them, as they’re all pretty easy to find switch-ins for.

Koko replays (>1800 elo)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1548584948-uvciwtdqxww51csmurwj4j47nze9x0ppw

In this replay you can see how Koko basically had the game in its clutches the moment the opponent let its Ferrothorn go sub 25%. From there, there is no more reliable switchins. A well timed taunt on zapdos sealed the game, tho to be honest I was surprised the zapdos stayed in.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1548681328-rpe09p8awc1oi6y436ej7gcmgrxkg6qpw

Koko again preps a team for an end game Rillaboom sweep. Taunt and chipping away at the checks seals the deal.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1548702114-iuvhmgk97ccwdtiopn5q5ohg6sdfvn5pw

This game is against Storm Zone, and there is a few things of interest, such as Koko surviving the scarf brave bird!

 

[odt]

Hi all,

There are 4 pokemon in A-tier I feel could go one way or another.

Zapdos is so satisfying to use in this current meta. Modest Hurricane is such a nuke on ground type switch-ins and pairs very well with its ability to function as defogger. 248HP/180Def lets you still check common threats and abuse Static, a ridiculously good ability on teams which can take advantage of it well. It really shines with cleric support and not being assigned with much defensive burden. Easy A+ for me.

Tapu Lele seems to have gone out of fashion a bit and looking at the usage stats I can kind of understand why. It's a bit unlucky with how well some of the most used pokemon in the tier can eat its stabs, and with Focus Blast being your main answer to these switch ins... I can understand why it's not all that popular at high level. That being said, Psychic Terrain pairs so well with certain sweepers, Future Sight makes wall-breaking easy and Scarf makes it one of the best revenge killers in the tier. There's just too much there to place it lower than Koko/Fini in my opinion. A+

Magnezone is an awkward place where it struggles to beat the pokemon it's supposed to trap unless it gets an absolutely clean switch in. That's a pretty big deal given low limited its general utility is. It's so telegraphed and easy to keep in mind, that against a good player it can feel like a dead slot. Heatran/Lando/Volcanion/Buzzwoles getting quicker isn't helping it either. A-

I like Corviknight but its versatility is lacking and it's pretty easy to beat with custom movesets/spreads. In terms of popularity it's still way up there but I can't help but feel that an A-rank should offer a bit more. I might be biased because my teams don't tend to struggle with it, so I won't suggest a drop. Any insights would be appeciated though!

 

[ProNooob]

Can we all just agree to drop Mandibuzz? Like I understand that some people have used it, but other than "it sometimes works" there's no real argument for it rising. Mandibuzz has brought nothing but hostility to this thread and IK I'm not a mod but please guys. Let's talk about other pokemon for a little bit maybe? So here's a diff nom:

B --> B-

I just feel like rilla doesn't do much? Sure it has knock uturn and strong priority, but it has a weak offensive typing, and it's priority doesn't outspeed much and hit harder than kartana? I feel like if you want a strong SD breaker to pair WITH kart, Bulu is better due to stone edge. Overall rilla has some nice tools, but it's typing really lets it down. In a buzzwole/zapdos/dnite meta, it literally can NOT break through some of the new common defensive walls. I really think it's a cool pokemon but it just doesn't cut it IMO.

 

[Ctann]

Can we all just agree to drop Mandibuzz? Like I understand that some people have used it, but other than "it sometimes works" there's no real argument for it rising. Mandibuzz has brought nothing but hostility to this thread and IK I'm not a mod but please guys. Let's talk about other pokemon for a little bit maybe? So here's a diff nom:

B --> B-

I just feel like rilla doesn't do much? Sure it has knock uturn and strong priority, but it has a weak offensive typing, and it's priority doesn't outspeed much and hit harder than kartana? I feel like if you want a strong SD breaker to pair WITH kart, Bulu is better due to stone edge. Overall rilla has some nice tools, but it's typing really lets it down. In a buzzwole/zapdos/dnite meta, it literally can NOT break through some of the new common defensive walls. I really think it's a cool pokemon but it just doesn't cut it IMO.

Hard disagree on Rillaboom being dropped. Most people aren’t playing it’s strengths.

Watch the three replays I posted two comments above yours. You can see how Rillaboom is basically A+ in any game where it’s terrain isn’t contested. And a solid B in any game where it’s terrain is contested. This averages out to B+ or A- !!

 

[Finchinator]

Watch the three replays I posted two comments above yours. You can see how Rillaboom is basically A+ in any game where it’s terrain isn’t contested. And a solid B in any game where it’s terrain is contested. This averages out to B+ or A- !!

I disagree with this a lot.

For starters, I don’t think assigning temporary values to pokemon hinging on game conditions and averaging them out makes much sense at all. But disregarding that, I do not think Rillaboom plays up to A+ even in the friendliest of landscapes.

In a metagame with more Buzzwole, Dragonite, Tornadus-T, and Zapdos than ever while Volcarona, Corviknight, and other Terrains remain common, it’s hard to see Rillaboom as the breaker or sweeper it once was. In most games, you’ll be able to knock off a couple of pokemon and pivot with Uturn, but that and Terrain is not nearly enough for a highly ranked Pokemon when it doesn’t cover much on the defensive checklist at all.

Even against offensive teams, where it comes the closest to excelling, Grass resists are at an all time high and they prefer to abuse Ground types like SD Garchomp, making Rillaboom less ideal. We hardly see it in this metagame relative to when it was peaking and it doesn’t find nearly as many openings. Rillaboom is either fine where it is or ok dropping slightly, but seeing it bump up makes little sense to me.

 

[Red Raven]

Have to partly agree with Ctann on the Rillaboom drop. Grass monke isn't really as bad as it seems but moving it above the B ranks is a bit too much. I've played with it myself recently and it's still a very strong mon since it almost always forces a terrain war. Steel types are everywhere but they're not the most difficult thing to deal with and any Rillaboom team needs to have a solid plan for getting past them anyway. Yes, the meta is not the most ideal making grass monke need a lot of support. However, once the conditions of weakened steels are met, it can be a threat but nobody is ever gonna mindlessly sacrifice their steels when they face off against Rillaboom

In the end, I think B rank is fine with it. I guess one could make a case of it swapping with Slowking but anything higher than B+ for Rillaboom is a bit too much. Also, with offensive Heatran, Rillaboom might also need to go jolly instead of adamant otherwise lava frog would just roast it

 

[Moyashi]

In addition to what Finch already pointed out, Rilla has such naturally huge competition in Kartana who can pretty much fulfill the same roles. Scarf sets revenge kill and act as speed control, banded sets wallbreak and SD sets clean/sweep. It's far more consistent against more of the meta and is a lot more splashable. Knock off and uturn are nice but those are good on a Pokemon that can actually come in often, which given Boom's lack of defensive usefulness means it needs help to do so.

Steel types are everywhere but they're not the most difficult thing to deal with and any Rillaboom team needs to have a solid plan for getting past them anyway. Yes, the meta is not the most ideal making grass monke need a lot of support. However, once the conditions of weakened steels are met, it can be a threat but nobody is ever gonna mindlessly sacrifice their steels when they face off against Rillaboom

It isn't just steels although they don't help its case. The huge number of flying types and other excellent grass resists really stifle its ability to make progress. As for Jolly Rilla to try and catch offensive heatran, you end up giving up more match ups elsewhere.

 

[Red Raven]

It isn't just steels although they don't help its case. The huge number of flying types and other excellent grass resists really stifle its ability to make progress. As for Jolly Rilla to try and catch offensive heatran, you end up giving up more match ups elsewhere.

Which is exactly why I said that Rilla is fine where it is. In my recent experience, neither Zapdos nor Tornadus are that sturdy of checks. Defensive Zapdos yes but if either of them are around half health, then just die to +2 grassy glide but those are just two examples. As for steels themselves, they're not really that sturdy because metal birbs are the ones that don't die or get mauled by superpower or drain punch

But yeah, that's the gist of it. Rillaboom simply requires too much support for anything anything above B rank. I did only suggest that B+ wouldn't be that unreasonable since I think Rillaboom requires just as much support to function as Nihilego or Slowking. Now that I think about it, Slowking should probably drop but I'm not too sure about demon jellyfish

 

[Moyashi]

Which is exactly why I said that Rilla is fine where it is. In my recent experience, neither Zapdos nor Tornadus are that sturdy of checks. Defensive Zapdos yes but if either of them are around half health, then just die to +2 grassy glide but those are just two examples.

Neither tend to remain that low unless you really really pressure them. Zap can often roost up out of range and TornT... Regenerator probably makes that too unrealistic. Not just them but also Buzzwole, Volcarona, Corv, Dragonite...

But yeah, that's the gist of it. Rillaboom simply requires too much support for anything anything above B rank. I did only suggest that B+ wouldn't be that unreasonable since I think Rillaboom requires just as much support to function as Nihilego or Slowking. Now that I think about it, Slowking should probably drop but I'm not too sure about demon jellyfish

It's not unusable but it's also just a really hard to use and justify pick at the moment. Given the amount of support it needs. As for slowking it checks some big special threats and has risen to handle Volcanion as well. It's honestly fine at B+.

 

[Ctann]

I disagree with this a lot.

For starters, I don’t think assigning temporary values to pokemon hinging on game conditions and averaging them out makes much sense at all. But disregarding that, I do not think Rillaboom plays up to A+ even in the friendliest of landscapes.

In a metagame with more Buzzwole, Dragonite, Tornadus-T, and Zapdos than ever while Volcarona, Corviknight, and other Terrains remain common, it’s hard to see Rillaboom as the breaker or sweeper it once was. In most games, you’ll be able to knock off a couple of pokemon and pivot with Uturn, but that and Terrain is not nearly enough for a highly ranked Pokemon when it doesn’t cover much on the defensive checklist at all.

Even against offensive teams, where it comes the closest to excelling, Grass resists are at an all time high and they prefer to abuse Ground types like SD Garchomp, making Rillaboom less ideal. We hardly see it in this metagame relative to when it was peaking and it doesn’t find nearly as many openings. Rillaboom is either fine where it is or ok dropping slightly, but seeing it bump up makes little sense to me.

Rillaboom is a matchup Pokémon in the current meta, however I would argue other terrains are it’s biggest weakness. Losing it’s terrain reliably stops its momentum better than an easily checked Buzzwole ever will. And also your grassy terrain can support your Buzzwole switch in!

X4 grass resists are rarely stacked together and the only consistent hard counters are buzzwole and dragonite.

The others can be beaten by adjusting coverage and EVs/item (Volcarona, corviknight, Ferrothorn, and friends) or easily lured and weakened by partners because they’re required to check them (zapdos, tornadus-t, Ferrothorn, Melmetal, etc)

Buzzwole and dragonite tend to be full stops for rillaboom, unless you’re willing to run unusual sets like no item acrobatics, or bulk up + taunt. Lol. Both Buzzwole and dragonite dislike the support terrain gives to the checks that are partnered with Rillaboom. Classic example is pairing future sight slowbro with Rillaboom, unless Buzzwole is running leech life, it will have a hard time!

Zapdos might be a full stop in a traditional sense, but it’s used to switch in to many Pokémon right now, or comes out in the early game, so it’s easy to find Rillaboom partners that lure it and pressure it. Same goes for tornadus-t.

 

[RedDiamond1024]

Rillaboom is a matchup Pokémon in the current meta, however I would argue other terrains are it’s biggest weakness. Losing it’s terrain reliably stops its momentum better than an easily checked Buzzwole ever will. And also your grassy terrain can support your Buzzwole switch in!

X4 grass resists are rarely stacked together and the only consistent hard counters are buzzwole and dragonite.

The others can be beaten by adjusting coverage and EVs/item (Volcarona, corviknight, Ferrothorn, and friends) or easily lured and weakened by partners because they’re required to check them (zapdos, tornadus-t, Ferrothorn, Melmetal, etc)

Buzzwole and dragonite tend to be full stops for rillaboom, unless you’re willing to run unusual sets like no item acrobatics, or bulk up + taunt. Lol. Both Buzzwole and dragonite dislike the support terrain gives to the checks that are partnered with Rillaboom. Classic example is pairing future sight slowbro with Rillaboom, unless Buzzwole is running leech life, it will have a hard time!

Zapdos might be a full stop in a traditional sense, but it’s used to switch in to many Pokémon right now, or comes out in the early game, so it’s easy to find Rillaboom partners that lure it and pressure it. Same goes for tornadus-t.

I generally agree with what you've said here, but one thing I want to say is that rillaboom doesn't have to go itemless for acrobatics to defeast buzzwole, but instead has to give up one of its coverage moves.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 411-484 (98.3 - 115.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

[ProNooob]

Rillaboom is a matchup Pokémon in the current meta, however I would argue other terrains are it’s biggest weakness. Losing it’s terrain reliably stops its momentum better than an easily checked Buzzwole ever will. And also your grassy terrain can support your Buzzwole switch in!

X4 grass resists are rarely stacked together and the only consistent hard counters are buzzwole and dragonite.

The others can be beaten by adjusting coverage and EVs/item (Volcarona, corviknight, Ferrothorn, and friends) or easily lured and weakened by partners because they’re required to check them (zapdos, tornadus-t, Ferrothorn, Melmetal, etc)

Buzzwole and dragonite tend to be full stops for rillaboom, unless you’re willing to run unusual sets like no item acrobatics, or bulk up + taunt. Lol. Both Buzzwole and dragonite dislike the support terrain gives to the checks that are partnered with Rillaboom. Classic example is pairing future sight slowbro with Rillaboom, unless Buzzwole is running leech life, it will have a hard time!

Zapdos might be a full stop in a traditional sense, but it’s used to switch in to many Pokémon right now, or comes out in the early game, so it’s easy to find Rillaboom partners that lure it and pressure it. Same goes for tornadus-t.

Rillaboom is a matchup Pokémon in the current meta, however I would argue other terrains are it’s biggest weakness. Losing it’s terrain reliably stops its momentum better than an easily checked Buzzwole ever will. And also your grassy terrain can support your Buzzwole switch in!

X4 grass resists are rarely stacked together and the only consistent hard counters are buzzwole and dragonite.

The others can be beaten by adjusting coverage and EVs/item (Volcarona, corviknight, Ferrothorn, and friends) or easily lured and weakened by partners because they’re required to check them (zapdos, tornadus-t, Ferrothorn, Melmetal, etc)

Buzzwole and dragonite tend to be full stops for rillaboom, unless you’re willing to run unusual sets like no item acrobatics, or bulk up + taunt. Lol. Both Buzzwole and dragonite dislike the support terrain gives to the checks that are partnered with Rillaboom. Classic example is pairing future sight slowbro with Rillaboom, unless Buzzwole is running leech life, it will have a hard time!

Zapdos might be a full stop in a traditional sense, but it’s used to switch in to many Pokémon right now, or comes out in the early game, so it’s easy to find Rillaboom partners that lure it and pressure it. Same goes for tornadus-t.

What coverage can rilla run to best volcarona and zapdos? And the issue is not rilla staying in, it’s rilla grassygliding uturning or knocking into the swap and getting para’d or burned whoch is crippling. Admittedly they do hate losing yheir boots, but I don’t see what techs you could run to BEAT them.