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Suspect SS NFE Suspect #4 - Little Fang
- Thread starter Jett
- Start date
- Status
team I used: (also got me to finals in that one tour) https://pokepast.es/1d9fa46830c72049
might edit in reasoning (no promises tho)
I figured I'd get a post out there about my thoughts on Golbat. Just to get it out of the way, I'm leaning DNB, but I'm still on the fence.
I'll only be covering the Taunt sets (mostly the Super Fang variant); as good as Nasty Plot is in some matchups I think it's been pretty underexplored and isn't really too relevant to the Golbat discussion here.
Golbat @ Eviolite
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe (80 SpD also viable)
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Super Fang / Toxic
- Taunt
- Roost
To start, I think some people are vastly overrating how vulnerable Golbat is to Knock Off. Golbat performs a hit & run playstyle, gaining momentum by switching into Tangela, Thwackey, Gurdurr etc. and using the free turn to click Super Fang or Toxic to massively cripple offensive answers, namely Piloswine and Electabuzz respectively, as well as defensive pivots like Klang and Vullaby that might aim to bring said offensive checks onto the field.
Something key to note here is that losing your Eviolite is an expected part of this process; almost everything you're switching into is running Knock Off. None of those Pokemon are doing significant damage regardless of whether or not your item is in play, and you'll still be getting plenty of free turns where you'll continue to click Brave Bird to whittle something down.
There are a few things you can do with Eviolite that you can't without, like wall a Heavy Duty Raboot, but I don't think the removal of Eviolite really opens up a lot of counterplay except in the case of Electabuzz, as Golbat can technically Roost on non-Specs Electabuzz if Eviolite is intact, particularly if SpDef investment is being used;
252 SpA Electabuzz Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 156-186 (44 - 52.5%)
252 SpA Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 204-240 (57.6 - 67.7%)
252 SpA Electabuzz Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 140-168 (39.5 - 47.4%)
252 SpA Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 182-216 (51.4 - 61%)
Staying in to tank a Volt Switch can be pretty devastating if Electabuzz was hit with Toxic or if hazards are up. I don't think this scenario should be one used by DNB voters, though, because the fact you need to knock it in the first place to reliably pressure Golbat with Volt Switch is kinda nutty when you consider how much pressure Golbat actively puts on teams.
Another thing SpD Golbat can do with Eviolite is wall Specs Gastly and reliably answer Calm Mind Lampent, but again, considering how frequently Golbat gets knocked this isn't something that opens up counterplay against Golbat, it just means Golbat has less Pokemon to prey on.
Similarly, I don't think Rocks are a huge deal most of the time. Golbat is finding ample opportunity to Roost up against the likes of Tangela and Thwackey, and honestly most of the tier thanks to its Speed tier; it roosts on Pikachu, for example, healing up on the traditional set.
200 SpA Light Ball Pikachu Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Golbat (Roosting): 151-178 (42.6 - 50.2%)
And this is one of the harder hitting Pokemon. Nothing is really stopping you roosting on Vullaby or Gurdurr, so its impact is largely limited to double-switches and 50/50s vs status users like Koffing and Clefairy.
I'm not saying Stealth Rock isn't great (and sometimes necessary for progression) against Golbat, because it absolutely is, but I don't think it cripples Golbat nearly as much as similar Pokemon like Vullaby. Golbat still has a lot of bulk without Eviolite and the Speed tier gives it many opportunities to heal up.
I also don't think Stealth Rock pressure is as guaranteed as the argument implies. Hazard removal is fairly splashable in this current metagame with Hattrem and Gurdurr being so strong, and niche options like Wartortle and Vullaby also available. I also think a lot of other top-tier Pokemon like Magmar and Piloswine are also somewhat vulnerable to hazards, so even if your opponent has a Golbat you can't always afford to trade hazards; sometimes you'll be forced to Defog your own Stealth Rocks away.
I think this replay of a recent Other Metagames Grand Slam game between stresh and Chazm does a very good job of demonstrating this, as well as showcasing what Golbat can do at a high level. If you're not heavily involved in NFE and are on the fence about Golbat I'd recommend giving this a watch.
So why am I leaning DNB right now? Mostly because Golbat isn't entirely unique; Tangela is extremely difficult to take out thanks to its respectable bulk and access to Regenerator and is possibly the best Pokemon in the tier, although I still waver between picking it or Golbat for this position. While they aren't quite on the same level, Electabuzz and Pikachu have a very limited number of consistent, reliable answers, and Hattrem invalidates a large chunk of our otherwise viable hazard setters. What I'm getting at here is we've had this centralised, top-heavy meta for a while, and while I don't necessarily agree with the rest of his post, I agree with S1nn0hC0nfirm3d on the following; "This metagame has been around for so long and I've found it to contain + encourage a good level of diversity and playstyles."
I think we have a number of Pokemon that don't necessarily beat Golbat, but can somewhat mitigate its damage output. Slowpoke is one example I've been using recently, and as this replay demonstrates it does a good job of tanking Super Fang, giving Electabuzz more breathing room while also occasionally forcing it out with the threat of a Scald burn. Mareanie can take on a similar role, and Gorsola can do the same (although it struggles a lot more vs Toxic variants).
Also, while I think Sleep is massively overrated as an option vs Golbat outside of Ivysaur, I do think there's something to be said for Paralysis.
Lowering Golbat's Speed tier is huge, and if it procs on a Roost turn it can be devastating for Golbat. This mostly comes from Electabuzz's Static, but can also be slotted as an option onto Pokemon like Tangela and Clefairy, although they'd admittedly much rather have a different move most of the time. We also have Pokemon like Kadabra and Gr. Gime which can pressure it if given a switchin, although I think this is much easier said than done.
Finally, there are a two niche options which do a solid job of dealing with Golbat even if you have to build around them from the get-go; Duosion and Lairon. Future Sight Duosion can force it out and thanks to Regenerator takes minimal damage from it, and Lairon loves the opportunity to fire off Head Smash whenever Golbat comes in.
I don't think Golbat is broken in a traditional sense, but the NFE metagame is undeniably very top-heavy. Golbat and Tangela have an unmatched impact on the tier, and they're also the biggest forces holding back Pokemon like Gurdurr and Pikachu that would likely be too broken to keep in the tier if not for the aforementioned titans' presence. I think it's safe to say that if Golbat goes so will Tangela, Gurdurr, and Pikachu, and I personally think it's more than slightly possible that Thwackey, Raboot, and Gr. Gime would need to go too, although that's a few too many steps away from the current NFE tier for me to be remotely confident about.
Were we better off pre-DLC when Machoke was an S rank? Do we have enough viable Pokemon in the current meta to make building and playing in the tier fun long-term or is the presence of Golbat (and Tangela) detrimental to the health of the tier? I'm still on the fence. I personally enjoy this meta still, but I know some people don't and it's mostly because of Golbat. I'm leaning towards DNB, but I completely understand and appreciate a Ban vote, and I think I'm still open to being swayed.
I'll only be covering the Taunt sets (mostly the Super Fang variant); as good as Nasty Plot is in some matchups I think it's been pretty underexplored and isn't really too relevant to the Golbat discussion here.
Golbat @ Eviolite
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe (80 SpD also viable)
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Super Fang / Toxic
- Taunt
- Roost
To start, I think some people are vastly overrating how vulnerable Golbat is to Knock Off. Golbat performs a hit & run playstyle, gaining momentum by switching into Tangela, Thwackey, Gurdurr etc. and using the free turn to click Super Fang or Toxic to massively cripple offensive answers, namely Piloswine and Electabuzz respectively, as well as defensive pivots like Klang and Vullaby that might aim to bring said offensive checks onto the field.
Something key to note here is that losing your Eviolite is an expected part of this process; almost everything you're switching into is running Knock Off. None of those Pokemon are doing significant damage regardless of whether or not your item is in play, and you'll still be getting plenty of free turns where you'll continue to click Brave Bird to whittle something down.
There are a few things you can do with Eviolite that you can't without, like wall a Heavy Duty Raboot, but I don't think the removal of Eviolite really opens up a lot of counterplay except in the case of Electabuzz, as Golbat can technically Roost on non-Specs Electabuzz if Eviolite is intact, particularly if SpDef investment is being used;
252 SpA Electabuzz Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 156-186 (44 - 52.5%)
252 SpA Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 204-240 (57.6 - 67.7%)
252 SpA Electabuzz Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 140-168 (39.5 - 47.4%)
252 SpA Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 182-216 (51.4 - 61%)
Staying in to tank a Volt Switch can be pretty devastating if Electabuzz was hit with Toxic or if hazards are up. I don't think this scenario should be one used by DNB voters, though, because the fact you need to knock it in the first place to reliably pressure Golbat with Volt Switch is kinda nutty when you consider how much pressure Golbat actively puts on teams.
Another thing SpD Golbat can do with Eviolite is wall Specs Gastly and reliably answer Calm Mind Lampent, but again, considering how frequently Golbat gets knocked this isn't something that opens up counterplay against Golbat, it just means Golbat has less Pokemon to prey on.
Similarly, I don't think Rocks are a huge deal most of the time. Golbat is finding ample opportunity to Roost up against the likes of Tangela and Thwackey, and honestly most of the tier thanks to its Speed tier; it roosts on Pikachu, for example, healing up on the traditional set.
200 SpA Light Ball Pikachu Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Golbat (Roosting): 151-178 (42.6 - 50.2%)
And this is one of the harder hitting Pokemon. Nothing is really stopping you roosting on Vullaby or Gurdurr, so its impact is largely limited to double-switches and 50/50s vs status users like Koffing and Clefairy.
I'm not saying Stealth Rock isn't great (and sometimes necessary for progression) against Golbat, because it absolutely is, but I don't think it cripples Golbat nearly as much as similar Pokemon like Vullaby. Golbat still has a lot of bulk without Eviolite and the Speed tier gives it many opportunities to heal up.
I also don't think Stealth Rock pressure is as guaranteed as the argument implies. Hazard removal is fairly splashable in this current metagame with Hattrem and Gurdurr being so strong, and niche options like Wartortle and Vullaby also available. I also think a lot of other top-tier Pokemon like Magmar and Piloswine are also somewhat vulnerable to hazards, so even if your opponent has a Golbat you can't always afford to trade hazards; sometimes you'll be forced to Defog your own Stealth Rocks away.
I think this replay of a recent Other Metagames Grand Slam game between stresh and Chazm does a very good job of demonstrating this, as well as showcasing what Golbat can do at a high level. If you're not heavily involved in NFE and are on the fence about Golbat I'd recommend giving this a watch.
So why am I leaning DNB right now? Mostly because Golbat isn't entirely unique; Tangela is extremely difficult to take out thanks to its respectable bulk and access to Regenerator and is possibly the best Pokemon in the tier, although I still waver between picking it or Golbat for this position. While they aren't quite on the same level, Electabuzz and Pikachu have a very limited number of consistent, reliable answers, and Hattrem invalidates a large chunk of our otherwise viable hazard setters. What I'm getting at here is we've had this centralised, top-heavy meta for a while, and while I don't necessarily agree with the rest of his post, I agree with S1nn0hC0nfirm3d on the following; "This metagame has been around for so long and I've found it to contain + encourage a good level of diversity and playstyles."
I think we have a number of Pokemon that don't necessarily beat Golbat, but can somewhat mitigate its damage output. Slowpoke is one example I've been using recently, and as this replay demonstrates it does a good job of tanking Super Fang, giving Electabuzz more breathing room while also occasionally forcing it out with the threat of a Scald burn. Mareanie can take on a similar role, and Gorsola can do the same (although it struggles a lot more vs Toxic variants).
Also, while I think Sleep is massively overrated as an option vs Golbat outside of Ivysaur, I do think there's something to be said for Paralysis.
Lowering Golbat's Speed tier is huge, and if it procs on a Roost turn it can be devastating for Golbat. This mostly comes from Electabuzz's Static, but can also be slotted as an option onto Pokemon like Tangela and Clefairy, although they'd admittedly much rather have a different move most of the time. We also have Pokemon like Kadabra and Gr. Gime which can pressure it if given a switchin, although I think this is much easier said than done.
Finally, there are a two niche options which do a solid job of dealing with Golbat even if you have to build around them from the get-go; Duosion and Lairon. Future Sight Duosion can force it out and thanks to Regenerator takes minimal damage from it, and Lairon loves the opportunity to fire off Head Smash whenever Golbat comes in.
I don't think Golbat is broken in a traditional sense, but the NFE metagame is undeniably very top-heavy. Golbat and Tangela have an unmatched impact on the tier, and they're also the biggest forces holding back Pokemon like Gurdurr and Pikachu that would likely be too broken to keep in the tier if not for the aforementioned titans' presence. I think it's safe to say that if Golbat goes so will Tangela, Gurdurr, and Pikachu, and I personally think it's more than slightly possible that Thwackey, Raboot, and Gr. Gime would need to go too, although that's a few too many steps away from the current NFE tier for me to be remotely confident about.
Were we better off pre-DLC when Machoke was an S rank? Do we have enough viable Pokemon in the current meta to make building and playing in the tier fun long-term or is the presence of Golbat (and Tangela) detrimental to the health of the tier? I'm still on the fence. I personally enjoy this meta still, but I know some people don't and it's mostly because of Golbat. I'm leaning towards DNB, but I completely understand and appreciate a Ban vote, and I think I'm still open to being swayed.
Woo forgot about this.
Woobat in lc sucks but golbat in nfe does not...save the bat.
Woobat in lc sucks but golbat in nfe does not...save the bat.
Confirming as NFEBAT boi (I have been really bad hahha although I wanted Batman...)
I hope this is my coming back to the tier :] (I wanna Simbo do the same a bit for the past's sake!)
Shoutouts to Shing'n Streets which has been with me during the last part of reqs (L) and to OranBerryBlissey10 from which I stole the team I have used for all the reqs practically :) great one!
I hope this is my coming back to the tier :] (I wanna Simbo do the same a bit for the past's sake!)
Shoutouts to Shing'n Streets which has been with me during the last part of reqs (L) and to OranBerryBlissey10 from which I stole the team I have used for all the reqs practically :) great one!
2 days of laddering
Thought I would have it done sooner but matches really dried up near the end.
- Status